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Facebook looking to circumvent Apple's App Store with HTML5 platform - Page 3

post #81 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

The Browser is written in C/C++/ObjC/ObjC++. Who the hell wants to write in Javascript when you have the entire Cocoa stack to leverage?

Which is why native apps predominate, and why they will always, in general, provide a richer, better user experience than web apps.

But, FB is really just high school on a web site and doesn't offer, or need to offer, much of a user experience, native or web based. I think this probably is entirely about revenue, which is why they don't have an iPad app, and want to not have a iPhone (or Android, or WP7) app. It's really not a big deal, and, in fact, Apple has been encouraging developers whose apps are nothing but a wrapper for web content to simply write web apps, so FB is just following Apple's advice to developers.
post #82 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Another nail in Flash's coffin.

Huh? What part of Facebook's current implementation uses Flash?
post #83 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by neiltc13 View Post

Huh? What part of Facebook's current implementation uses Flash?

Quite a few of the games have Flash elements.
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post #84 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by neiltc13 View Post

Huh? What part of Facebook's current implementation uses Flash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Quite a few of the games have Flash elements.

And, more generally speaking, the more examples of how web sites can be as good or better without Flash, the more web sites that will be developed without Flash, until the tipping point is reached and web site owners all begin demanding Flash free web sites.

One of the groups that seems most stuck in Flash right now is restaurant owners, who, as a group, tend to have the worst web sites on the web. When the restaurant web sites all convert over from Flash+PDF to HTML5, we'll know that the coffin is not only nailed shut, but in the ground covered with dirt.
post #85 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

As I stated to someone else, the problem is that if Facebook and other developers begin chasing after the web app dream and ditch native apps, these web apps will be available to all mobile users, which gives Apple nothing to differentiate itself, which will indeed hurt hardware sales.

Before we Chicken Little this to death, it would behoove us to understand what is reqired to make this happen - worst case scenario:

Project Spartan would cause intelligent developers to rewrite their apps in html 5 and deliver them alongside their native apps. Why? Because no developer worth the effort is going to cut off a known productive revenue source to jump ship for an uncertain one. Yes there are good examples (and bad ones as well) of games and other code in html 5 - Apple demonstrates it on a daily basis on their website. But a smart developer will want to see additional revenue first, not just a promise of revenue before they will go exclusively with something like Project Spartan. Once the revenue stream is a PROVEN revenue stream then they may change their approach.

This whole idea of developers streaming away from the iOS native app platform and only doing html 5 is rather obtuse and demonstrates a very poor understanding of developing apps and building a strong revenue model for your efforts. The revenue generated from going to html 5 only has to be as good or better - both in quantity and reliability - than doing native apps in order for a developer to abandon an existing revenue stream. This is why developers try to establish a base of operations in one platform first before branching out or moving to another. Your "life" depends on the revenue from that app or apps, once money starts coming in, then you look around and see if you can justify the time and effort to develop for other platforms.
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post #86 of 133
Facebook will suck ever more people into its greasy tentacles, Apple will continue to sell blockbuster numbers of iOS devices, Twitter will flourish and... Flash will be on life support.
post #87 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggbrigette View Post

Blah, I passionately all things Facebook. I have to use it, my clients want it but have no clue how to use it, so I am forced to learn it, at least enough to show them the basics and link it into their websites. Facebook is so illogical and while I can code HTML no problem, their system seems so wonky and covoluted.

For myself, I do use Twitter, so I was happy to hear that Apple was incorporating that more in iOS5. But certainly there room for everyone and people will use what works best for them.

Same here. Interfacing with Facebook is pretty much a nightmare. I haven't delved into the custom apps for a Facebook page and what not. Just trying to customise the code they give you so you can have a "Like" box and so on is not trivial.

Friendly, a nice iPad app for doing Facebook stuff, was broken for about a week or two because Facebook changed something in the API that obviously caused a lot of headaches.

For development, I actually see a three-path bifurcation of the mobile Internet (ie. how the Internet will be accessed the most in 2012-2022 with smartphones, tablets, and whatever comes next).

1. iOS
It's not going anywhere, it's only getting better. But,

2. HTML + CSS + Javascript (let's not use "Web 2.0/3.0" or any other fancy terms, web apps is just HTML + CSS + loads of Javascript)
This will be the anti-iOS go-to strategy for everyone. Problem is, web apps is no joke. Personally, I think people are trying to cobble a lot of stuff onto a system and language that was never designed to be app-oriented but page-oriented instead. See the Google I/O web app talks on YouTube. Even the brightest Google engineers implement a lot of shoehorning and workarounds.

3. Android
Gathering strength for smartphones but no clear paradigm for delivering tablet apps. No strong tablet devices.

These will all continue to co-exist and I think the "web development" company that will succeed the most is someone that plays along all those lines, though of course specialists in any three areas will also succeed.

Interesting but tricky times ahead.

For those of us that spent a good decade learning web design and development as well as Flash design and development, it's time to re-tool and re-learn. It can be scary sometimes.
post #88 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by foller View Post

FT.com got there first. released yesterday!

Guess who doesn't read the Financial Times and never will thanks to your foolish shilling?

Thousands of us. Great going.

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post #89 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecklesstechguy View Post

This whole idea of developers streaming away from the iOS native app platform and only doing html 5 is rather obtuse and demonstrates a very poor understanding of developing apps and building a strong revenue model for your efforts. The revenue generated from going to html 5 only has to be as good or better - both in quantity and reliability - than doing native apps in order for a developer to abandon an existing revenue stream. This is why developers try to establish a base of operations in one platform first before branching out or moving to another. Your "life" depends on the revenue from that app or apps, once money starts coming in, then you look around and see if you can justify the time and effort to develop for other platforms.

I think a lot opportunities are starting to emerge all over the world, and it's not going to be clear just yet how things are going to pan out.

It's not like during the time when it was the web vs. "multimedia" cd-roms (remember those?). The web took over relatively quickly.

Over the next 10 years we will see iOS jostle with web apps and Android apps.

For developers, it depends on their revenue stream. I see three paths in this economy: development for direct sale/revenue, development for clients, and just like any other multimedia ecosystem before it, training a new generation of "web savvy folk".

The challenge for web apps is the lack of one-click "instant on" gratification. Yes, we have become so lazy, on a mobile or tablet, navigating to a website, click-click-click can be a bit tiresome. But it also reflects that a desktop website is obviously not designed for mobile and tablet.

I see dedicated iOS and Android apps as the mainstay of something you do frequently, while web apps will start to take over web sites when accessing the web from mobile and tablet.

I think what Facebook is trying to do is to make their website a portal for apps. In other words, Facebook becomes a new app store in and of itself. Their goal is you go to the Facebook website, it's (ever more) optimised for mobile and tablet, and you have all the apps, games and what not to ensnare you further in their network.

Have no doubt, Facebook has the power to become the next Google. This is just another play in their insidious plans.
post #90 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

You do realize that it could get you banned.

Obviously it's a take-off on FB's logo, but he could have used a better choice of words. Point well-made, however.

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post #91 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A new report claims social network Facebook is partnering with roughly 80 developers on a secretive "Project Spartan" HTML5-based application platform that would circumvent Apple's App Store on iOS devices.

TechCrunch's MG Siegler reports Facebook is coordinating the effort in order to maintain control over web apps without having to submit to the App Store terms. According to people familiar with the project, Facebook hopes "to use Apples own devices against them to break the stranglehold they have on mobile app distribution."...

This sounds far less like Facebook knocking holes in the wall of Apple's garden, than it does Facebook erecting a smaller wall of it's own inside the garden.
post #92 of 133
If the HTML5 webapp doesn't have access to the camera, camera roll, GPS location data, push notifications (at all, let alone in a secure way), this initiative would seem to be a non-starter. It might be good for browsing facebook, but not so much for using it in certain ways that are most useful when you're on a mobile device.
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post #93 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibitzer View Post

Obviously it's a take-off on FB's logo, but he could have used a better choice of words. Point well-made, however.

I thought about it after posting, my sincere apologies to all.
If I must be banned, so be it.

I think it's funny, though. If I can find the right tone of blue fabric, I'm making a T shirt.
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post #94 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

Who uses the FaceBook spy network anyhow?!

"Here we have the worlds most comprehensive database about people, their relationships, their names, their addresses, their locations, their communications with each other, and their relatives, all sitting within the United States, all accessible to US Intelligence.:

http://thenextweb.com/facebook/2011/...been-invented/

Oh please. The guy who realesed worked with a now jailed spy, to realease thousands of US and allied intelligence documents is accusing facebook of being a spy network? That's rich. What the hell is Wikileaks then?

And while I can understand some of what Assange does and his mission, some of what he does borders on cyber-terrorism. Releasing documents with source names, could get people killed (this is why they are often classified...not because of the information in them). Indeed, the Taliban has made exactly such statements and proceeded to act on them. The man has blood on his hands.
post #95 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

This could hurt Apple if developers see it as a way to avoid giving Apple their 30% cut. They could either develop their own HTML5 webapps or they could join up with Facebook (a large and influential internet company). If enough developers do it, Apple could be hurting.

I think you found the point to this article. I do wonder though if the public would trust Facebook enough to start purchasing apps through them. Given FB's track record on privacy, I certainly would not. Apple's App store is something I trust and feel comfortable using. FB, not a chance.

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post #96 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

You do realize that it could get you banned.

I think he feels remorse. It was funny but he should have stopped himself from posting it.

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post #97 of 133
I think this will work to a point. But the long term problem they will have is that HTML is a standard, designed by committee, that takes years to standardise and finalise each new version. Whereas Apple can add new Cocoa Touch APIs as quick as they can develop and test them, with no political holdups.

This means if they choose Cocoa Touch as their platform they will be able to quickly leverage new hardware features Apple rolls out. If they use HTML5 their competitors will gradually creep ahead of them. For now they will be fine though, because HTML5 is new and it's API set is up to date, but the pace of change and new ideas only accelerates in the tech industry.

A mere 2-3 years from now they could find the HTML5 APIs have gotten quite out of date, and they need to write or purchase Javascript libraries to get features they could have got for free from Cocoa Touch. And that is the best case. In the worst case there are new hardware features on the phone they can't access at all.
post #98 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

"Facebook hopes "to use Apples own devices against them to break the stranglehold they have on mobile app distribution."

Apple failed (relatively speaking, anyway) with Ping because they stepped well beyond their realm of expertise. Now Facebook's trying to play on Apple's turf. Here come da fail.

Facebook is unhappy with Apple's refusal to give them more freedom to share people's info without their knowledge so now they are working on a new ways to invade my privacy. Thanks Zuckersucks.

I hate facebook, only reason I even use it is because it is the only way I can stay in touch with family. Several people I know have had their accounts hacked or gotten viruses off facebook thanks to their stellar security.

I much prefer my information stay safe than have the freedom to use services that give no thought or care to my personal information & it's safety. I could argue that guardrails encroach on my freedom to drive off a cliff but then I rather like that they are there.
post #99 of 133
Point well made. Except html5 apps cannot be as good as native apps because it wont have access to the built in api features. No notifications, persistent internet connection, etc.

But you are right I didnt think about hardware sales slip if other companies have the same apps. But they cant because free apps will always be there for api and app store use. Plus there are 400k apps already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

One quick thing: What sets Apple's mobile products apart for many people is the vibrant and varied App Store. If those apps are all available as web apps instead of native apps and are available to Android/Windows/HP/Blackberry users, what's going to keep anyone besides diehards buying Apple products? Sure they make great stuff and have a great ecosystem, but if the apps are available everywhere, there's nothing really setting them apart, so hardware sales will suffer.
post #100 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibitzer View Post

Obviously it's a take-off on FB's logo, but he could have used a better choice of words. Point well-made, however.

Disagree.

If you use the most common, overused, crass, swearword on the planet to make your point, it can't really be considered to be "well-made." Just yelling 'fuck' is not exactly commentary.

Also, the guy has the temerity to advertise in his signature which just makes it worse.
post #101 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromit View Post

You haven't been paying attention, have you?

A couple of years ago i heard Apple talk a lot about HTML 5. Lately, not so much.
post #102 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsquireMac View Post

If the HTML5 webapp doesn't have access to the camera, camera roll, GPS location data, push notifications (at all, let alone in a secure way), this initiative would seem to be a non-starter. It might be good for browsing facebook, but not so much for using it in certain ways that are most useful when you're on a mobile device.

Actually according to this Sergey's HTML5 book Ive just purchased and according to caniuse.com both HTML5 and iOS 4 browser support touch gestures, GPS location data, push notifications (Server-sent DOM events) and other HTML5 APIs. HTML5 geolocation and HTML5 gestures I tested myself (on Android though) and it works well.

Device camera access also supported by HTML5 in specification but not by iOS4 browser, so it is just a matter of catching up by Safari iOS browser with HTML5 specs - hopefully iOS5 will have that support.

In the next few month we will see a migration to HTML5 mobile apps since this way you can bypass app store and also make your app available for Android/Win Mobile devices.

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post #103 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

@guch20 & @Jacksons

You both are seriously clueless to what makes Apple tick, and what makes them money.

It's the hardware. Apple has the best on the planet, including desktop, laptop, tablets, music players and phones. That's not going to change, and neither is Apple's margins. Some people see paying for it, some don't. So is the marketplace. But regardless, their devices are consistently the one's that are held up as the one's to beat.

Agreed that Apple makes money from hardware; however, why should consumers buy from Apple with its high margins when they could buy a cheap low margin device from a competitor and get the exact same web apps?

The threat is not from Apple losing their 30% from appstore purchases. It is what affect this might have on hardware sales.
post #104 of 133
I can see this thing getting an update soon:

http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iphone.pdf
post #105 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

This could hurt Apple if developers see it as a way to avoid giving Apple their 30% cut. They could either develop their own HTML5 webapps or they could join up with Facebook (a large and influential internet company). If enough developers do it, Apple could be hurting.

Apple says the App Store is running at about break-even for them. If web apps take over in the way you describe, Apple would still be as profitable.

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post #106 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

Agreed that Apple makes money from hardware; however, why should consumers buy from Apple with its high margins when they could buy a cheap low margin device from a competitor and get the exact same web apps?

The threat is not from Apple losing their 30% from appstore purchases. It is what affect this might have on hardware sales.

Yeah, Apple is soooo worried about that, they freely share WebKit with Google and other companies competing against them

Frankly, Facebook is just making noise. They have no secret sauce when it comes to web apps. If they really wanted to impress me, they will release a SDK that'll make HTML5/JavaScript/AJAX more tolerable to work with. But Facebook as a technology platform? I don't think so.

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post #107 of 133
FaceBook is popular, and users will put up (seemingly) with whatever FaceBook feeds them. Even an HTML5 app which is highly unlikely to be as good as a native app. (But this is one case where it COULD be good, since FaceBook doesn’t do anything all that sophisticated; at least not user-facing. If they try to do TOO much, with animation etc. for better games, then it won’t be good; not for battery, nor experience.)

At most, they’ll be snubbing their own users. They won’t be snubbing Apple: Apple actively supports web apps outside the App Store, arguably offers an even better platform than Google for doing so, and gets no cut on FaceBook’s free app anyway.

At best, it will be one more interesting option for developers to use to make (some limited) stuff for us, and that’s not all bad.

Apple has no stranglehold on browser-based apps, and doesn’t want one! They keep adding features just for non-App Store browser apps on iOS. Like fullscreen support, tilt, GPS, etc. Web apps cannot normally be AS good as native, but Apple doesn’t intend to kill them. That would be absurd.
post #108 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

Agreed that Apple makes money from hardware; however, why should consumers buy from Apple with its high margins when they could buy a cheap low margin device from a competitor and get the exact same web apps?

Lots of reasons.

a) High design standards
b) High build quality
c) Long product lifespan (3 years of software support for iPhone models so far, Android handsets averagesaround a year, unless you jailbreak)

That's without even getting into the fact that there will still be a vibrant native App market, especially for the more sophisticated offerings. Apple doesn't even have crazy high margins on its phones, the price of top end Android phones are close to iPhone prices, the price of other handheld game/music devices are comparable or more than the price of the touch, the iPad is famously cheaper than many android tablets.
post #109 of 133
The financial times is already doing this. The latest version of the FT for iOS is fully HTML5 and doesn't need you to go to the app store, even for the offline version. It's far far faster than the app and has all the same offline features (you just need to increase the Safari database size to 50mb.

Facebook (as usual) is WAY behind the curve here and I'm quite surprised this is even a story. The main reason this is good news for consumers is that any handset that has full HTML5 capability can use these free apps. If you decide to switch to Android or WinMob then it doesn't matter.

As far as I can tell, mobile Safari is the best HTML5 mobile web browser.

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post #110 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Disagree.
If you use the most common, overused, crass, swearword on the planet to make your point, it can't really be considered to be "well-made." Just yelling 'fuck' is not exactly commentary.

Sorry, it had to start with an 'f'. Next time, I'll use asterisks so Jesus Our Lord doesn't feel offended.

I believe doing some search and 5+ minutes of photoshop goes a little bit above 'yelling', i.e. it's more acceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Also, the guy has the temerity to advertise in his signature which just makes it worse.

Well, you have the temerity to call yourself 'Prof.'. Others have the temerity of boasting their Apple products.

Regarding my app, it is kind of 'abandonware'; I made it long time ago, it's free now, and I've considered changing my signature, but I must admit I was lazy. Guess now I just won't.
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post #111 of 133
If you're what, under 30 years old? No thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

Who? Really? You don't realize how popular it is with just about everyone with a computer and internet access? I'll give you a hint: it's freaking HUGE.
post #112 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

Facebook sucks - its populated by a large percentage of lonely housewives talking about their kids soccer games. Facebook is trying to subvert the internet and have everything on the net tied to them and going through them. Please fail, quickly and painfully. It's such a load of worthless crap. Pick up the phone and call your mother for god's sake.

It reminds me so much of AOL about twenty five years ago, don't need or want to go back to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

One of the groups that seems most stuck in Flash right now is restaurant owners, who, as a group, tend to have the worst web sites on the web. When the restaurant web sites all convert over from Flash+PDF to HTML5, we'll know that the coffin is not only nailed shut, but in the ground covered with dirt.

WordPress has some very nice professional restaurant themes, no Flash at all.
post #113 of 133
Wow, the topic was Facebook, instead you attack the messenger, how adult of you. Care to talk about the actual topic, or just strawman arguments?

Sounds like you ought to start watch Judge Andrew Napolitano's Freedom Watch show, to expand your limited worldview:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/fr...tch/index.html
or
http://usaguns.net/patriots/fw10.php

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Oh please. The guy who realesed worked with a now jailed spy, to realease thousands of US and allied intelligence documents is accusing facebook of being a spy network? That's rich. What the hell is Wikileaks then?

And while I can understand some of what Assange does and his mission, some of what he does borders on cyber-terrorism. Releasing documents with source names, could get people killed (this is why they are often classified...not because of the information in them). Indeed, the Taliban has made exactly such statements and proceeded to act on them. The man has blood on his hands.
post #114 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

Who? Really? You don't realize how popular it is with just about everyone with a computer and internet access? I'll give you a hint: it's freaking HUGE.

Couldn't care less. And I'm pretty close to the generation that made Facebook big. Screw 'social networking'.

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post #115 of 133
...back on topic.

If they succeed in bypassing the AppStore's 30% cut (without using Flash), and Steve is OK with that, then it really was about the technology, and not just the money.

just sayin'...
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post #116 of 133
The technology behind webapps is advancing to the point that it can replicate much of what a native app does. For instance, apps like FaceBook should work equally well no matter the medium. Even some light games will transition well.

However, not ALL apps would find a good fit as a webapp. For instance, would you prefer to have a camera webapp? Play RageHD as a webapp?

So some apps (like banking, news, social media, Flash-esque games, etc) would work fine as webapps. Some wouldn't. For those that did, the problem next becomes getting your product to the consumer. If you're a bigwig corporation, you might just offer the webapp free on your sight, or go ad-based or freemium. But if you're a small developer? How do you get the exposure? The 30% cut Apple gets is worth it to most developers, because it provides exposure and an environment that encourages spur-of-the-moment purchases. Going it alone may not work so well. It would be like pulling your product out of Walmart's shelves and trying to sell it directly.

It is possible that a third party releases a webapp store in competition with the App Store? Sure. But how do you monetize it? You can't mimic the model of pay-once (i.e. $0.99) apps, unless you paid and then entered a password (since you're not downloading anything, just accessing a website in effect). Or you could charge a monthly fee. Or go ad-based for revenue. There's also the freemium route. I would expect the latter two to be the viable options.

If a third-party store did take off, it would still need to compete with the mindshare and the ease of use the App Store provides. The App Store is preinstalled in all iOS devices, and the OS is tied to it. You think the average consumer is going to find a webapp store on the web, give them their credit card info, etc.?

Besides, developers would be foolish to pull out of the App Store. They would just ALSO sell at the webapp store. It would be like if a new retail store opened down the street from Walmart; you're not going to stop selling at Walmart, because that's where the traffic is.
post #117 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

And while I can understand some of what Assange does and his mission, some of what he does borders on cyber-terrorism. Releasing documents with source names, could get people killed (this is why they are often classified...not because of the information in them). Indeed, the Taliban has made exactly such statements and proceeded to act on them. The man has blood on his hands.

Yes, you just never know when those cables from Australian Embassy to US home soil regarding a free trade agreement will teal to the Taliban killing your ass
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post #118 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

Sounds like you ought to start watch Judge Andrew Napolitano's Freedom Watch show, to expand your limited worldview:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/fr...tch/index.html
or
http://usaguns.net/patriots/fw10.php

Fox to expand your world view! This is going from good to great.
Household: MacBook, iPad 16gb wifi, iPad 64gb wifi, iPad Mini 32gb, coming iPhone 5S, iPhone 4S 32gb, iPhone 32gb, iPod Touch 4th gen x1, iPod nano 16gb gen 5 x2, iPod nano gen 3 8gb, iPod classic...
Reply
Household: MacBook, iPad 16gb wifi, iPad 64gb wifi, iPad Mini 32gb, coming iPhone 5S, iPhone 4S 32gb, iPhone 32gb, iPod Touch 4th gen x1, iPod nano 16gb gen 5 x2, iPod nano gen 3 8gb, iPod classic...
Reply
post #119 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksons View Post

A couple of years ago i heard Apple talk a lot about HTML 5. Lately, not so much.

Hey Jacksons, I think your KIN is ringing. Someone is calling you to build a web app for that phone!
post #120 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by radster360 View Post

Hey Jacksons, I think your KIN is ringing. Someone is calling you to build a web app for that phone!

WTF?

When was the last keynote where Apple actively and proactively promoted HTML5? I think you will find that Apple very much enjoys the world of dedicated apps at the current time.
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