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American Airlines to save $1.2 million shifting paper flight charts to iPad - Page 3

post #81 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanthia01 View Post

In aviation, you've got to get it right, first time, all the time. Perfection. "Pretty reliable" is not good enough!

No pilot, no plane, and no flight is "perfect." Safe and legal is the norm.
post #82 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

snip
But I guess the certification is what's pulling it off. As soon as you get other tablets that are certified for Class 1, I'm sure there will be cheaper alternatives. I'm just wondering if this is a new application or AA just using these iPads as a Class 1 device.

I've read a couple of comments about cheaper tablets being available. Where are they? The only cheaper ones I've seen are the crappy ones running android 2.xx They have small resistive screens (not multi touch) and frankly technically aren't in the same class as the IPad.

The Xoom, Playbook, Tab may be in the same class but aren't any cheaper.
post #83 of 107
United (well... the Continental side, anyway)... is supposed to be getting iPads next month. Personally, I can't wait to quit lugging around a 50 lbs bag full of paper!
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post #84 of 107
I've heard the same about the United side.
post #85 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjwal View Post

I've read a couple of comments about cheaper tablets being available. Where are they? The only cheaper ones I've seen are the crappy ones running android 2.xx They have small resistive screens (not multi touch) and frankly technically aren't in the same class as the IPad.

The Xoom, Playbook, Tab may be in the same class but aren't any cheaper.

Kindles have been used to display approach plates. Cheaper and a lot less glare. Though, not as funcational as an iPad with that Jepperson app.
post #86 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Irony alert. "American" airline gives customers Korean tablet.

I wonder how much better our economy would be by the simple application of "buy local." Congress and the executive branches seem hobbled by a system that is locked in a permanent state of preparing for getting yourself re-elected and cannot work together on much of anything anymore.

The president could unilaterally use his bully pulpit to create a national drive to urge, shame, cajole, and pressure American companies to 1) buy American made products, and if that is not possible at least 2) buy American owned company's products. Make that a part of a new definition of patriotism. Maybe we can't all fight on the front lines, but we can do this. Allow those who do (to a specified level) to label their products and ads with a special "We support America" symbol. Kind of like the star flags the families of service member can fly. The more American parts & supplies your company buys, the more stars. Those who approach 100% can display a gold star.

I think many patriotic Americans would buy Gold Star products even if they cost a bit more. At least it would give flag-wavers not in the military an opportunity to act instead of just give lip service to their patriotism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Oh please. How much of the labour to build an iPad is American? And conversely would you be willing to let American industry forego opportunities everywhere else in the world (because of retaliation from other countries)?

Fair questions.

It depends on how you define labor. Obviously all iPad manufacturing occurs overseas, but an immense amount of labor went into the design and testing of this device, its packaging, advertising, marketing, etc. All done by U.S workers. But that really wasn't the crux of my argument, only what provoked it. I was addressing of all of U.S. companies and their products, not just Apple.

Retaliation for what? Company decides to source one component of a device from Baltimore instead of Beijing. China is now going to refuse to sell us prams in retaliation? Washing machine manufacturer decides to move one plant back to Cleveland from Chihuahua so now Mexico is going to close down other plants in retaliation? Can you be more specific about how this retaliation you cite would actually play out?
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post #87 of 107
But an iPad maximum operating altitude is 10.000 feet. How is this going to be useful when, say, a 747 cruises at 35.000 feet? Do 'most' flights stay below 10.000 feet? Or are the maps only needed at lower altitudes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747
http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/
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post #88 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

But an iPad maximum operating altitude is 10.000 feet. How is this going to be useful when, say, a 747 cruises at 35.000 feet? Do 'most' flights stay below 10.000 feet? Or are the maps only needed at lower altitudes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747
http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/


Yes..but the cabin is pressurized. The cabin altitude doesn't get much higher than 8000 ft.
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post #89 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Kindles have been used to display approach plates. Cheaper and a lot less glare. Though, not as funcational as an iPad with that Jepperson app.

I have both a kindle and an ipad. I'm not a pilot so I don't know how much info needs to be included on your "approach plate". A kindle sized device may be fine if your maps are pocket book sized but as a replacement for 8.5x11 sheets an ipad size is more appropriate.

Back to the availability of cheaper tablets though I still don't see any Ipad equivalent tablets that are any cheaper.
post #90 of 107
I use the ipad2 to help eliminate the constant fiddling with paper in the cockpit (I still carry backup paper charts and plates).

It is a custom mount I made with the help of a mounting system manufactured in Australia. It is removable, which I prefer to do during takeoff and landing, preferring to use paper approach plates on a separate holder that mounts in its place.

The ipad works beautifully, and gives me a GPS location on the ipad2 chart, which is useful for additional situational awareness. My panel-mounted avionics are, of course, certified, and I have dual backups of all instruments.

I have used the ipad on many VFR and IFR flights, and, though it is a little bit hard to read in bright light, it is OK as mounted in my aircraft, so contiunes to be useful.

I have pictures of the mounting system and the iPad2. Can someone tell me how to upload .jpg pictures to my posting (the insert image icon only allows URL's ?). Thanks.
post #91 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjwal View Post

I have both a kindle and an ipad. I'm not a pilot so I don't know how much info needs to be included on your "approach plate". A kindle sized device may be fine if your maps are pocket book sized but as a replacement for 8.5x11 sheets an ipad size is more appropriate.

Back to the availability of cheaper tablets though I still don't see any Ipad equivalent tablets that are any cheaper.

A Kindle might be able to display an image just fine. The problem is that when you want to search through a pdf that is 1000+ pages, the Kindle chokes, if you can even search at all! I use my iPad to store my operations and flight manuals. There's an app called Good Reader for the iPad that is amazing! I can search through the entire pdf, make annotations in color etc. The Kindle just doesn't even come close to the iPad's speed. The approach charts are not 8 1/2 x 11, but rather like 5x8; just a tad smaller than the size of the iPad screen.
post #92 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

My concern with technology like this is that trendy tech always has a nasty habit of finding its way into the airplane without proper testing or due consideration to the limits for which it was certified. What I loathe as a former pilot and as an engineer, is the guy who comes in thinking his iPad is cool and now decides it'll automatically work well in the cockpit because it works great for him at home.

Oh, this may be news to you but everyone is quite concerned. It will be used on tens thousands feet above the ground after all. Unlike you, we're just not quite pessimistic because it's iPad, that's all. Oh. and you may notice I'm not the only one who have impression you feel Android could be a better choice but thank you to make it clearer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

I like to see reasonable arguments and data where safety is involved. At least Steven N. and John Burdick provided that. You're just an asswipe intent on slandering someone because they questioned the tech brand you're loyal to.

Loyal? Gives me a break. The only Apple product I own personally is iPod Touch. All my computers are PCs.
post #93 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

No. That sounds to me that AA got a far more customized solution. I believe that AA already uses iPads in their First Class lounges. So they must have had a good reason (or several) to go for a different tablet for in-flight IFE. I suspect cost was one. Customization another. And perhaps the screen orientation too. It's a nicer experience watching movies on a 10 inch Galaxy Tab than an iPad, simply because the letterboxing is a lot less. For reading and games, etc. the iPad wins out.

The ability to play with the OS, will probably drive more airlines to use Android for IFE.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/ru...onic-eyes.html

That's not to say the iPad is bad. it's just that airlines probably get more flexibility with an Android system. And that matters to airlines who want to push their brand.

Cost will be the main one. I bet it'd be cheaper than iPad. Customization is another one. You should ask yourselves why Samsung would bother to customize their hardware specifically for one client. It's not rocket science and you're a pilot after all. You'd know the true answer if you're not blinded by loyalty.
And I'm not convinced using Android will help their brand. I know what you're talking about but I'm not convinced, and I'm working in advertising.
post #94 of 107
Where do airlines get their charts from? (answer: Jeppesen)

What mobile platforms does Jeppesen support? (answer: only iPad)

Airlines have a lot tied up with Jepps in the form of customized charts and procedures... they are not going to re-do all that with another chart provider (assuming one existed at all) just so they can get a tablet $98 dollars cheaper.

So far, Jeppesen has chosen to use iPad for their mobile charting... so if airlines want to transfer their paper subscriptions to mobile electronic, it HAS to be the iPad.

I've used a permanent-mounted EFB in our 757's ... it was severely inferior to the Jepp iPad app.
The iPad is also superior to an "EFB" in that it allows the pilot to take it with him... having access to manuals, charts, and other publications (and most importantly... the labor contract ) in the crew room, at home, at the hotel... wherever.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #95 of 107
Here is proof that some pilots are not very smart and so stuck on habit that they will fly an airplane into the ground rather than adjust to something new.
If anybody really thinks that the cockpit is perfectly designed, they have not flown much. Ever been in a Super 80 or a B737 or a B757 or 767? There is more wrong than right in most of those airplanes. Most cockpits are poorly designed. After flying the B777 for the last 12 years, I could make dozens of changes for the better. It is a nice cockpit but far from perfect and better than most. The best cockpits are in corporate aircraft where the owners are less likely to pinch pennies.
Dragging around a 35 pound flight case for the last 22 years has been a hassle, not to mention spending countless hours updating charts and manuals, looking for lost or misfiled pages etc. Having electronic charts is the future! The B777 is designed to have them built in but most airlines penny pinch and did not order them. Some have and they work.
It is not even an option on the 787...you have to get them with the airplane!
post #96 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I feel safer flying on airlines using iPads rather than Android tablets.

Here are two scenarios:

(1) The airline uses iPads for it's flight charts and everybody arrives safely at their destination. Everything just works.

(2) The airline uses Android Tablets for it's flight charts and the pilot is too busy rooting his tablet and playing with widgets, so the whole plane goes off course, it ends up crashing and you eventually end up on an island like the one in "Lost".

(3) The airlines use "Powered by Microsoft" OS on their flight and navigation computers; Blue Screens of Death appear randomly and it turns out that the pilots need to take up a collection from pax so they can buy an in-air over-the-air (but not via iCloud) license extension. Also terrorists easily hack the computers and, by remote control, land planes in Kakastan, all pax get a free vacation in some absurd 4th world terrain and exist on goat meat and yak-butter tea until rescues.
post #97 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

... it ends up crashing and you eventually end up on an island like the one in "Lost".

I really think it'll turn out to be more like "Lord of theFlies"... but with adults (that still ACT like children )
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #98 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

1) WTF is your problem? I'm not anti-Apple. I own several Apple products.

2) I said there was no room for fanboyism on the flight deck. Apple or otherwise. Read my posts in this thread, I never once suggested an Android tablet as an alternative. I suggested paper and pencil instead.

My concern with technology like this is that trendy tech always has a nasty habit of finding its way into the airplane without proper testing or due consideration to the limits for which it was certified. What I loathe as a former pilot and as an engineer, is the guy who comes in thinking his iPad is cool and now decides it'll automatically work well in the cockpit because it works great for him at home.

I like to see reasonable arguments and data where safety is involved. At least Steven N. and John Burdick provided that. You're just an asswipe intent on slandering someone because they questioned the tech brand you're loyal to.

@ Jetz: Sometimes it's hard for some folks around here to see the forest for the trees. I'm far from being (a) a fanboy, though I've owned exclusively Apple products since the dark ages (1978), or (b) a person with any knowledge of or experience piloting any kind of aircraft, so my perspective is that you are extremely knowledgeable and you have your reservations. That's a sane and sensible attitude.

John Burdick has what appears to be similar levels of experience and knowledge, like you, levels far superior to most of the other posters here. John has his own ideas about this topic and, like yours, they've been very interesting reading for me.

Please keep your comments coming and don't fall into verbal battles and chopping logic with those who don't seem to want to listen to different points of view.

You're doing fine and I (for one) appreciate your insights.
post #99 of 107
Jetz... I get that you don't think pilots should have iPads in the cockpit, but I also get the impression from your comments that you have no idea how an airline cockpit is run.
The iPad, as its use is proposed by the airlines, is the best device available for that task(s).
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post #100 of 107
Wow - so many responses now I come back. Interesting.

Still - I hold. Consumer, price-orientated stuff has no place in the cockpit. Again, I'm all for EFBs, etc, but now way am I for the use of consumer toys. They are quite simply not stable enough for life/death scenarios.

I appreciate this is probably Cat-D tech (Cat-E is generally reserved for non-flight systems and ground use), but still - if this goes too far there will be a big crash. It might not happen right away - it might not happen for a year, two years, five years or 10 years. But it will happen.

Sadly, the impetus for most safety action is passenger blood. "If nobody has died from it, it must be all right" is the mantra.

Stand back and look at this - these devices are unstable (and more importantly - uncontrolled [over-the-air updates, etc]), consumer tech. Most avionics systems are stringintely change-managed and written in Assembler. How can you effectively outsource something like that? Crazy stuff. Even if they were perfectly stable, there is no possible way you could baseline and sociability-test for every possible scenario.

And if paper stays in the cockpit then I don't see what the savings are about?
post #101 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Jetz... t you have no idea how an airline cockpit is run.

Do you, or am I the only pilot here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

The iPad, as its use is proposed by the airlines, is the best device available for that task(s).

No it is not. A managed and controlled built-in system is - similar to that available on the 777/787/A380/A350 et al. This sort of system:

* Doesn't depend on charging
* Cannot be dropped or damaged
* Is built from professional-grade parts
* Ergonomics are well-thought out
* The software and hardware are tuned to work together - so every aspect of performance is predictable and reliable
and most importantly
* Is managed and controlled. Every update and every parameter is stringintely monitored, tracked, tested and released according to best-practice methods.
post #102 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanthia01 View Post

Do you, or am I the only pilot here?



No it is not. A managed and controlled built-in system is - similar to that available on the 777/787/A380/A350 et al. This sort of system:

* Doesn't depend on charging
* Cannot be dropped or damaged
* Is built from professional-grade parts
* Ergonomics are well-thought out
* The software and hardware are tuned to work together - so every aspect of performance is predictable and reliable
and most importantly
* Is managed and controlled. Every update and every parameter is stringintely monitored, tracked, tested and released according to best-practice methods.


You really don't seem to understand exactly what these are going to be used for.
I need to be able to take it with me at the end of the day. It can't be bolted to the airplane.

It's NOT a navigation device.... Just a chart/manual display device.

It's not a moving map display.... That functionality is built into the FMS and MFD's.

This is a way for me to carry around all the manuals and charts and other reference materials that I'm required to have.... Without lugging around 50 lbs of paper.
Easier to update than paper... And no missing pages.

It's not part of the airplane, it's an electronic replacement for paper manuals and charts. The testing you mention is not required... It only needs to be approved by the FAA (for each airlines ops-spec) to replace all the paper...

It's not replacing normal or emergency checklists, it's not a navigation device, there will be paper backups available.... Come visit us in the 21st century, please.
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post #103 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

You really don't seem to understand exactly what these are going to be used for.
I need to be able to take it with me at the end of the day. It can't be bolted to the airplane.

It's NOT a navigation device.... Just a chart/manual display device.

It's not a moving map display.... That functionality is built into the FMS and MFD's.

This is a way for me to carry around all the manuals and charts and other reference materials that I'm required to have.... Without lugging around 50 lbs of paper.
Easier to update than paper... And no missing pages.

It's not part of the airplane, it's an electronic replacement for paper manuals and charts. The testing you mention is not required... It only needs to be approved by the FAA (for each airlines ops-spec) to replace all the paper...

It's not replacing normal or emergency checklists, it's not a navigation device, there will be paper backups available.... Come visit us in the 21st century, please.

Thank you King! It certainly seems like there is a lot of confusion and mis-understanding as to what exactly the iPad is going to be used for by the airlines. We've been using ship-sets at my airline for about two years now and it's so nice to not have to lug around 35+ pounds of paper, not to mention the hours of doing revisions for which we're not getting paid for.

What I find amazing is that just because the iPad was initially introduced as a consumer device the people think that that's all it is. The build quality and stability of it have done nothing but impress me!
post #104 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanthia01 View Post

Wow - so many responses now I come back. Interesting.

Still - I hold. Consumer, price-orientated stuff has no place in the cockpit. Again, I'm all for EFBs, etc, but now way am I for the use of consumer toys. They are quite simply not stable enough for life/death scenarios.
.
.
.
Stand back and look at this - these devices are unstable (and more importantly - uncontrolled [over-the-air updates, etc]), consumer tech. Most avionics systems are stringintely change-managed and written in Assembler. How can you effectively outsource something like that? Crazy stuff. Even if they were perfectly stable, there is no possible way you could baseline and sociability-test for every possible scenario.

And if paper stays in the cockpit then I don't see what the savings are about?

I don't think you really understand the design that goes into flight level software and electronics. You may be a pilot but you are not an engineer working on and designing these systems day in and day out. Yes, Level E can be used In Flight especially when the system has no access to the power or data networks. I seriously doubt this is a Level A-C system but is either Level D Level E. Probably Leve D. Either way, it is way down there and that has serious significance in this discussion.

Now, if you knew anything about the safety levels, something you don't seem to, much of your concerns might actually make sense:
Level D:
"Software whose anomalous behavior, as shown by the system safety assessment process, would cause or contribute to a failure of system function resulting in a minor failure condition for the aircraft."

Level E
"Software whose anomalous behavior, as shown by the system safety assessment process, would cause or contribute to a failure of system function with no effect on aircraft operational capability or pilot workload. Once software has been confirmed as level E by the certification authority, no further guidelines of this document apply."

You are treating this as Level A or B:
Level A
"Software whose anomalous behavior, as shown by the system safety assessment process, would cause or contribute to a failure of system function resulting in a catastrophic failure condition for the aircraft."

My guess is this is Level D. You don't need to do code coverage making the actual formal software testing much easier. That, and iOS will never get code coverage testing. This limits any iPad (or Android Tablet) to a Level D and lower safety level. You still have environmental testing and software testing. Configuration control would still apply. Strong Enterprise level management of iOS devices negates your "over-the-air" update concerns.
post #105 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

I don't think you really understand the design that goes into flight level software and electronics. You may be a pilot but you are not an engineer working on and designing these systems day in and day out. Yes, Level E can be used In Flight especially when the system has no access to the power or data networks. I seriously doubt this is a Level A-C system but is either Level D Level E. Probably Leve D. Either way, it is way down there and that has serious significance in this discussion.

Now, if you knew anything about the safety levels, something you don't seem to, much of your concerns might actually make sense:
Level D:
"Software whose anomalous behavior, as shown by the system safety assessment process, would cause or contribute to a failure of system function resulting in a minor failure condition for the aircraft."

Level E
"Software whose anomalous behavior, as shown by the system safety assessment process, would cause or contribute to a failure of system function with no effect on aircraft operational capability or pilot workload. Once software has been confirmed as level E by the certification authority, no further guidelines of this document apply."

You are treating this as Level A or B:
Level A
"Software whose anomalous behavior, as shown by the system safety assessment process, would cause or contribute to a failure of system function resulting in a catastrophic failure condition for the aircraft."

My guess is this is Level D. You don't need to do code coverage making the actual formal software testing much easier. That, and iOS will never get code coverage testing. This limits any iPad (or Android Tablet) to a Level D and lower safety level. You still have environmental testing and software testing. Configuration control would still apply. Strong Enterprise level management of iOS devices negates your "over-the-air" update concerns.




My my my, what a tangled web we weave! So much gobbledygook and and tech speech..

Listen people, this is the bottom line. The iPad won't be used for any safety critical tasks. No navigation, no aircraft monitoring, no moving map display, NONE of that!

It's simply replacing paper that is already in the cockpit. Paper that weighs a LOT, and has to be manually updated every two weeks; a task that can take one to two hours per set to update, and there are up to four sets on each long haul aircraft. It's a matter of dollars and cents! For the price, the iPad is giving airlines the best bang for the buck, simple as that!
post #106 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanthia01 View Post

You have no idea?! Fact is, consumer devices flake out. What you suggest makes a mockery of CRM. What do you fly? 707s? I fly A330s internationally - I'm used to everyONE and everyTHING doing exactly as it should, at exactly the right time.

I don't need the distraction of consumer electronics on the flight deck. I need predictable perfection!

except the speed controllers
post #107 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamondgeeza View Post

except the speed controllers

I need to stop reading posts like this one while drinking my morning coffee! Well, trying to drink is more like it duh
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