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Judge denies Samsung's request to see Apple's iPhone 5, iPad 3

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
A U.S. Circuit Court judge has denied Samsung's request to see Apple's unannounced fifth-generation iPhone and third-generation iPad, characterizing the request as overreaching.

The 11-page order came from Judge Lucy Koh on Tuesday, and while it's not permanent, it's a victory for Apple. As detailed by Florian Mueller of Foss Patents, the judge "made a lot of effort" to explain that Samsung is entitled to parity in its case with Apple, but in this instance the company had no justifiable reason to see Apple's next-generation products.

Apple and Samsung met in court last Friday, but Judge Koh did not rule from the bench, as Apple had amended its complaint the day before the hearing. She said that Samsung did not show "good cause" to justify an expedited discovery of Apple's future products, packaging and inserts.

"If Samsung had requested reasonable discovery along the lines discussed at the hearing on Apple's motion for expedited discovery, the Court would have granted the request," the order reads. "However, as Samsung has not requested such discovery in this motion, the Court cannot order it. In any case, it appears that Apple may be willing to provide such discovery without the need for Court intervention."

Samsung initially filed a motion in late May, asking to see Apple's next iPhone and iPad by June 13. The request came after the court ordered Samsung to show prototypes of its new, already-announced devices to Apple.

Last week, Apple characterized Samsung's requests as nothing more than "attempts to harass" that were not made in good faith. In that filing, Apple also referred to Samsung as "the copyist."



Apple fired the first legal salvo in April, when the company sued Samsung for allegedly copying the look and feel of the iPad and iPhone with its own Galaxy-branded tablet and smartphone products. Samsung quickly fired back and accused Apple of violating patents related to cellphone transmission technologies.

Executives with Samsung this week denied there have been talks with Apple to resolve their patent dispute out of court. This quarter, the Korean company is expected to become the largest smartphone maker in the world.
post #2 of 42
Nice to see the occasional burst of sanity in our IP legal system.
post #3 of 42
I called that one out over at Macrumors the day they listed the request actually on the same basis the justice described. It was an absurd request.
post #4 of 42
Smells like tactics to me. Samsung's legal team files an unreasonable request which they don't really intend to put much effort into, hoping that Apple's super secrecy will compel them to put significant resources into opposing it.
post #5 of 42
Too bad...Samsung could have got a head start on their next models.
post #6 of 42
Yeesss...! Take that "copyist" Samsung.

I hope Steve Jobs didn't forget to send judge Lucy Koh a bouquet of flower along with some nice bourbon...
post #7 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Smells like tactics to me. Samsung's legal team files an unreasonable request which they don't really intend to put much effort into, hoping that Apple's super secrecy will compel them to put significant resources into opposing it.

If so, it is a stupid strategy.

Apple has essentially unlimited legal resources. There is no way that Samsung can outspend Apple.

And they just managed to convince a judge that they're unreasonable and making overreaching demands. Not a good way to start out what is likely to be a lengthy trial (unless Samsung realizes that it's a lost cause and settles).
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #8 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShepherd View Post

Too bad...Samsung could have got a head start on their next models.

You mean Samsung got a head start on 'copying' Apple's iPad than other competitors..?
post #9 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

(unless Samsung realizes that it's a lost cause and settles).

Will Apple let them? This is theft of intellectual property at the most basic level.

"Settling" needs to be 'Fundamentally change the look of all of your hardware and software or stop selling your devices in the United States."

Then Apple can move on to other markets where they have similar patents and other companies in the U.S.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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post #10 of 42
Must be difficult for a U.S. court when the two plaintiffs are large corporations. It's an easy decision when it's corporations vs. workers.

Yes, it was overreaching, but the Judge probably still flipped a coin.

Or is this just how it's like on the Supreme Court?
post #11 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Will Apple let them? This is theft of intellectual property at the most basic level.

"Settling" needs to be 'Fundamentally change the look of all of your hardware and software or stop selling your devices in the United States."

I don't think so. Apple wants to eliminate the most obvious copies, but knows that they can't stop EVERYTHING.

Keep in mind, also, that the average lifecycle of a Samsung smart phone appears to be a few months. That's how long it takes for them to realize that their product is a flop and replace it with something else.

I could picture Apple saying "we'll give you 4 months to get all the existing products off the market and the next generation must remove the following key features".

Apple would be better off with a settlement like that then litigating - and taking the chance that some idiot judge would wipe out their intellectual property.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #12 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

If so, it is a stupid strategy.

Apple has essentially unlimited legal resources. There is no way that Samsung can outspend Apple.

Outspend? No. But much like anything else there is a limit to how much money you can throw at a problem before you start to lose productivity, you can't just hire another 50 lawyers. So potentially if I spend 10 man hours of some junior paralegal to distract you for 100 including some time from your top guys, that's a good use of those 10 man hours.

Not that I have any firm evidence that this is what was up, it's just theory.
post #13 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

Must be difficult for a U.S. court when the two plaintiffs are large corporations. It's an easy decision when it's corporations vs. workers.

Yes, it was overreaching, but the Judge probably still flipped a coin.

Or is this just how it's like on the Supreme Court?

Thanks for that. And now we'll return to something that isn't completely and utterly stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I could picture Apple saying "we'll give you 4 months to get all the existing products off the market and the next generation must remove the following key features".

That's basically what I'm saying. Apple wants the features (look of hardware and software, really) removed, otherwise they'll just sue again or larger consequences will occur.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #14 of 42
Samsung are many many times the size of Apple and live and breathe on suing people, defending against lawsuits, and shoving suitcases of money at reporters; they can outspend Apple in legal any time they want. Hell, it wouldn't take much to buy Apple if such things were easy to arrange by merely shifting branches around.

Samsung are the largest conglomerate on earth, the largest this earth has ever seen. They only get bigger.

Remember, too, that Samsung are the prize of Korea (and one of the backbones of its government and economy. There is no way this will hurt Samsung at all other than tarnish its name abroad. But considering how peachy people in the States think of Samsung, I rather think the good people of the USA who hate 'tyranny' will rally behind the 'good' Samsung for the simple reason that they know nothing about the megacorp.

Whatever the case, this is big. Why? Korean companies get away copying so many things meanwhile thrasing Chinese companies as knock-offs.

Of course, this tarnishes Apple's name abroad, where people seriously think they are the biggest this or that.

Bottom line: until the US government is funded largely by Apple so that Apple can do whatever it wants, it is just another tech company. Another tech company cannot fight a mega corp that has pretty much proved via a few major scandals that Korean government is 100% behind Samsung no matter what they do. We are not even talking about legality here. Samsung don't really operate on that plane, at least as it is conceived of in the West.

So, Apple need to think this way: the three people who bought Galaxy tabs and S's in the USA are what they are fighting. No matter what happens in the USA and the west, Samsung will still copy and re-brand (this is very glossy hyperbole) at home. Korean law and US law (though intertwined because the US pretty much made Korea after the war) may be similar in certain aspects, but in Korea, laws are something totally other, something at the behest of money and nothing else. And when it comes to Money, Samsung are gods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

If so, it is a stupid strategy.

Apple has essentially unlimited legal resources. There is no way that Samsung can outspend Apple.

And they just managed to convince a judge that they're unreasonable and making overreaching demands. Not a good way to start out what is likely to be a lengthy trial (unless Samsung realizes that it's a lost cause and settles).
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post #15 of 42
This isnt a slam dunk win for Apple though, at least not for the meat and potato lawsuit.

Here is what FOSS had to say:

Quote:

Samsung is free to argue, for instance, that there is little likelihood of confusion because consumers will not encounter its products side-by-side with the iPhone 4 or iPad 2, but rather with Apple’s next generation iPhone and iPad. Similarly, as to proximity, Samsung is free to argue that because the iPhone 4 and iPhone 2 will soon be outmoded and reduced in price, they are not being sold (or very soon will not be sold) to the same class of purchasers who are likely to buy new Samsung products. By choosing to allege infringement only of its current products, Apple opens itself up to these arguments.

If Apple can present the iPhone 5 to the court and show that the alleged problem of “consumer confusion” is essentially the same as currently (in terms of similarities between the Galaxy handset and the iPhone 4), Apple’s motion for an injunction is no less likely to succeed (though it’s clear that Samsung would try to overstate any possible differences in design).


If Apple would rather avoid this kind of impression, it might want to proceed cautiously and wait with a preliminary injunction motion until the iPhone 5 can be shown, or present only a tablet-related motion in the very near term and a smartphone-related one a little later.

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #16 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post

Samsung are many many times the size of Apple and live and breathe on suing people, defending against lawsuits, and shoving suitcases of money at reporters; they can outspend Apple in legal any time they want. Hell, it wouldn't take much to buy Apple if such things were easy to arrange by merely shifting branches around.

Samsung are the largest conglomerate on earth, the largest this earth has ever seen. They only get bigger.

Remember, too, that Samsung are the prize of Korea (and one of the backbones of its government and economy. There is no way this will hurt Samsung at all other than tarnish its name abroad. But considering how peachy people in the States think of Samsung, I rather think the good people of the USA who hate 'tyranny' will rally behind the 'good' Samsung for the simple reason that they know nothing about the megacorp.

Whatever the case, this is big. Why? Korean companies get away copying so many things meanwhile thrasing Chinese companies as knock-offs.

Of course, this tarnishes Apple's name abroad, where people seriously think they are the biggest this or that.

Bottom line: until the US government is funded largely by Apple so that Apple can do whatever it wants, it is just another tech company. Another tech company cannot fight a mega corp that has pretty much proved via a few major scandals that Korean government is 100% behind Samsung no matter what they do. We are not even talking about legality here. Samsung don't really operate on that plane, at least as it is conceived of in the West.

So, Apple need to think this way: the three people who bought Galaxy tabs and S's in the USA are what they are fighting. No matter what happens in the USA and the west, Samsung will still copy and re-brand (this is very glossy hyperbole) at home. Korean law and US law (though intertwined because the US pretty much made Korea after the war) may be similar in certain aspects, but in Korea, laws are something totally other, something at the behest of money and nothing else. And when it comes to Money, Samsung are gods.


In the US, we call it lobbying. Its legal, but not ethically moral.

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #17 of 42
We are all looking at this as one of several tactical moves being made and not seeing it from a strategic perspective. Apple of course is defending their IP, and they are well aware of Samsung's standing in electronics and in Korea. All of this goes before senior counsel before any litigation even starts. Apple has on board one of the world's best IP litigators who has been very successful at what he does precisely because he has a good hand on the strategy to use. This is not an off-the-cuff, "let's sue Samsung cuz they annoy" routine. The whole layout has been gone over carefully, the potential for impacting display supplies (and the contracts that guarantee them), known Samsung protected IP, the whole of what Samsung competes with in impinging markets, their role in the Korean markets, their complicity with the Korean government - all of this is taken into account as they assess the approach in the suit.

And the Apple legal team also looked at the available judges, potential locations, past ruling histories and so on. While shigzeo's caution is well noted - that is information that has already been processed by Apple in taking up this suit.

When we try to figure out what Apple has to gain from doing this (other than the obvious) - that's when we are looking at the strategy - Apple may be doing this as a stalling tactic while they bring other screen suppliers up to speed. Or they may be using it as a negotiation tactic to gain some additional contract concessions from Samsung. There are a myriad of supporting strategic ideas to consider here, not just the stated intent.
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post #18 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post

So, Apple need to think this way: the three people who bought Galaxy tabs and S's in the USA are what they are fighting. No matter what happens in the USA and the west, Samsung will still copy and re-brand (this is very glossy hyperbole) at home. Korean law and US law (though intertwined because the US pretty much made Korea after the war) may be similar in certain aspects, but in Korea, laws are something totally other, something at the behest of money and nothing else.

Apple are not fighting this in Korea, because they don't really care about the South Korean market - certainly not compared to the US market. If Apple can lock those models out of USA, Europe, Japan and the rest of the developed world who's economy isn't 1/6th Samsung they'll be pretty happy.

Quote:
And when it comes to Money, Samsung are gods.

You do realize that Apple could buy Samsung right? Practically for Cash! Samsung is the biggest firm in the world by revenues, that's it. Not the biggest by employees, I'm pretty sure there are Chinese firms with more. Certainly not the biggest by profits or market cap. Samsung is a big fish in a small pond, but even in South Korea there are other national interests at play - such s keeping the Americans happy and involved in the security of the Korean Peninsula.
post #19 of 42
Samsung's request was clearly unwarranted, no surprise that the judge ruled against it.

If they so badly want to see the next big thing, here's the scoop: Notification bar pulled down from the top of the screen, messaging system a la Blackberry, cloud integration like Google's, maximized windows like, hm, Windows... All good stuff, coming to Apple soon!

Copying a silly grid of icons may have fooled a few losers with iPhone envy, but turned away everyone else. Lame, Samsung, very lame. At least copy something that's worth it...
post #20 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A U.S. Circuit Court judge has denied Samsung's request...

Judge Koh is a District Court (trial court) judge, not Circuit Court (appellate).

Koh, Lucy Haeran
Judge, U. S. District Court, Northern District of California
Nominated by Barack Obama on January 20, 2010, to a seat vacated by Ronald M. Whyte; Confirmed by the Senate on June 7, 2010, and received commission on June 9, 2010.
post #21 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

You do realize that Apple could buy Samsung right? Practically for Cash!

Hyperbole much?

http://www.revenews.com/revenews/new...wn-with-apple/
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post #22 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post

Samsung are many many times the size of Apple .....

Ummm..... Samsung's market cap as of today is 122 trilion Korean won. At an exchange rate of $0.0009/Won, that is ~USD110 billion.

Apple's market cap is about 3x that.

Sorry, no contest.
post #23 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Hyperbole much?

http://www.revenews.com/revenews/new...wn-with-apple/

Not quite. See above. Apple will probably have $80B - $85B in cash by the end of this year, so, with a little additional borrowing, it could quite easily, if it wanted to.
post #24 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Hyperbole much?

http://www.revenews.com/revenews/new...wn-with-apple/

So they couldn't buy them with cash. But they could buy them. Apple's Market Value is twice Samsung's.
post #25 of 42
Sarcasm doesn't play too well in the legal system. Judges have no /s tag.
post #26 of 42
Apple doesn't want to buy a manufacturer like Samsung. They want to rent their production lines and volume buy their essential products: semiconductors.

My question is, when will the United States regain some part of the semiconductor market that was once ours? Can we? If not, I think we're doomed. The beginning of the end was when the big US TV industry preferred to let the set makers go offshore.

Not that I'm an economic isolationist. But we really need some of the economic benefits that manufacturing brings. Read Alexander Hamilton.
post #27 of 42
Another $40-50 Billion might do it. And how long did it take Apple to get that first $50 billion in the bank? That's a lot of money even for Apple. Now add Apple trying to spend it, and getting nailed for a few billion in taxes owed to the US Government once they bring their cash home (since much of it is stashed overseas to avoid those taxes).

Granted, Apple has a lot of money saved for a rainy day. But not THAT much.
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post #28 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swift View Post

Sarcasm doesn't play too well in the legal system. Judges have no /s tag.

Agreed. The judge didn't find any humor in Apple's suggestion that the court would not be a good arbiter of Apple's company secrets.
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post #29 of 42
When Samsung filed this motion it seemed childish and stupid on the face of it. I still have no clue as to whether Samsung's legal department is indeed petty and foolish, or if there was some sound legal strategy involved in this that escapes me.
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post #30 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swift View Post

Apple doesn't want to buy a manufacturer like Samsung.

No one said that.
post #31 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post

Samsung are many many times the size of Apple and live and breathe on suing people, defending against lawsuits, and shoving suitcases of money at reporters; they can outspend Apple in legal any time they want. Hell, it wouldn't take much to buy Apple if such things were easy to arrange by merely shifting branches around.

Samsung are the largest conglomerate on earth, the largest this earth has ever seen. They only get bigger.

Remember, too, that Samsung are the prize of Korea (and one of the backbones of its government and economy. There is no way this will hurt Samsung at all other than tarnish its name abroad. But considering how peachy people in the States think of Samsung, I rather think the good people of the USA who hate 'tyranny' will rally behind the 'good' Samsung for the simple reason that they know nothing about the megacorp.

Whatever the case, this is big. Why? Korean companies get away copying so many things meanwhile thrasing Chinese companies as knock-offs.

Of course, this tarnishes Apple's name abroad, where people seriously think they are the biggest this or that.

Bottom line: until the US government is funded largely by Apple so that Apple can do whatever it wants, it is just another tech company. Another tech company cannot fight a mega corp that has pretty much proved via a few major scandals that Korean government is 100% behind Samsung no matter what they do. We are not even talking about legality here. Samsung don't really operate on that plane, at least as it is conceived of in the West.

So, Apple need to think this way: the three people who bought Galaxy tabs and S's in the USA are what they are fighting. No matter what happens in the USA and the west, Samsung will still copy and re-brand (this is very glossy hyperbole) at home. Korean law and US law (though intertwined because the US pretty much made Korea after the war) may be similar in certain aspects, but in Korea, laws are something totally other, something at the behest of money and nothing else. And when it comes to Money, Samsung are gods.

Check your facts. Apple is more valuable than Samsung. Apple could buy Samsung with its' cash holdings alone but Samsung would have a hard time raising the cash from banks to buy Apple.

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post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Not quite. See above. Apple will probably have $80B - $85B in cash by the end of this year, so, with a little additional borrowing, it could quite easily, if it wanted to.

You're right of course, it's only Samsung's Mobile&Tablet division that Apple could buy for cash - it would need to throw some stock down for the whole enchilada.
post #33 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

Check your facts. Apple is more valuable than Samsung. Apple could buy Samsung with its' cash holdings alone but Samsung would have a hard time raising the cash from banks to buy Apple.

It depends on how you measure the firm, as I already pointed out in my response to him. Samsung is certainly bigger by employees or revenues. To be fair to him market cap is a very American way to weigh firms - Chaebol are so closely held and controlled by minority shareholders that their market cap will always suffer - which is why their P/E is so low.
post #34 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Smells like tactics to me. Samsung's legal team files an unreasonable request which they don't really intend to put much effort into, hoping that Apple's super secrecy will compel them to put significant resources into opposing it.

Yeah they probably had to pull iPad designers and software engineers off their production lines to help out.
post #35 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Will Apple let them? This is theft of intellectual property at the most basic level.

"Settling" needs to be 'Fundamentally change the look of all of your hardware and software or stop selling your devices in the United States."

Then Apple can move on to other markets where they have similar patents and other companies in the U.S.

Samsung is such a valuable partner/supplier, my guess is that Apple's best case outcome (in Apple's eyes) is (much) lower licensing fees for IP that Samsung owns and (much) more assured supply of critical components.
post #36 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post

Samsung are many many times the size of Apple and live and breathe on suing people, defending against lawsuits, and shoving suitcases of money at reporters; they can outspend Apple in legal any time they want. Hell, it wouldn't take much to buy Apple if such things were easy to arrange by merely shifting branches around.

Samsung are the largest conglomerate on earth, the largest this earth has ever seen. They only get bigger.

It's great that you have civic pride, but unfortunately, you're wrong on the financial part of things. Samsung is not bigger than Apple in any way that matters in this sphere.
post #37 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swift View Post

Apple doesn't want to buy a manufacturer like Samsung. They want to rent their production lines and volume buy their essential products: semiconductors.

My question is, when will the United States regain some part of the semiconductor market that was once ours? Can we? If not, I think we're doomed. The beginning of the end was when the big US TV industry preferred to let the set makers go offshore.

Not that I'm an economic isolationist. But we really need some of the economic benefits that manufacturing brings. Read Alexander Hamilton.

Of course. And that's WHY Apple could buy Samsung nearly with the cash on hand. Because you let people who are content to make very tiny profits doing very dirty, easy work, do that. And you yourself then make the other 90% of the profit that is earned on your products while your suppliers make 10% of the profits. Taking 98 cents and turning it into a dollar isn't something many businesspeople would be proud of.
post #38 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Yeah they probably had to pull iPad designers and software engineers off their production lines to help out.

I was thinking more along the lines of a senior lawyer :0
post #39 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

I was thinking more along the lines of a senior lawyer :0

Do you think senior lawyers are so busy that they can't find time to do their job? Or that Apple only has one or two? Or can't hire outside guns with 80 billion in cash?

There's no way that Samsung could help themselves by "swamping Apple's lawyers" with two much work.
post #40 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by shigzeo View Post

Hell, it wouldn't take much to buy Apple if such things were easy to arrange by merely shifting branches around.

Ah, I don't think you have a clue how much cash Apple has vs. Samsung. Samsung might have more employees and more sub-companies, but the combination of profit and stock investment has generated WAY more cash for Apple. Because of this, Apple's "worth" eclipses Samsung.

Financially, Apple could buy Samsung with their cash holdings and still have more cash available than Samsung currently holds.

Samsung is huge (much like GE) but that doesn't mean they have enough money to buy Apple. They would have to raise the money, on the other hand, Apple could buy Samsung outright.... believe it or not. Seems crazy, but it is true.
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