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And yet another free-market theory failure

post #1 of 338
Thread Starter 
Not only do social democracies provide a better living for a greater majority of citizens, they also produce better financial performance.

On with the shitstorm of attacking the messenger, denying the findings, presenting unproven and disproved theories as 'fact', saying people who believe these findings are ignorant without producing any facts to counter them, and other overall ignorance... Come on, guys, let's have it. Sigh.

Stocks Of Socialized Countries Have Outperformed U.S. Since Reagan Era
post #2 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Not only do social democracies provide a better living for a greater majority of citizens, they also produce better financial performance.

On with the shitstorm of attacking the messenger, denying the findings, presenting unproven and disproved theories as 'fact', saying people who believe these findings are ignorant without producing any facts to counter them, and other overall ignorance... Come on, guys, let's have it. Sigh.

Stocks Of Socialized Countries Have Outperformed U.S. Since Reagan Era

tonton I am not a cheerleader for "social democracies" nor the "american system" but I can tell you that piece was not very informative. The graph was nice but that does not take make for the argument that you seem to imply. I look around and I see america failing to be fiscally sound. This is our downfall if we don't do something about it. We have schools in california that are brand new but not opened / used because the school district does not have the money to fund it. http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...ol-sits-unused

We have saab from sweeden with factories idle due to the company facing a funding crisis an unable to pay wages to it's employees. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d1a78c26-9...#axzz1QAla14s8

As for the stocks and stock markets.. These are manipulated by the globalists to the nth degree.

America / Europe what have you.

Horrible thread.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #3 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

tonton I am not a cheerleader for "social democracies" nor the "american system" but I can tell you that piece was not very informative. The graph was nice but that does not take make for the argument that you seem to imply. I look around and I see america failing to be fiscally sound. This is our downfall if we don't do something about it. We have schools in california that are brand new but not opened / used because the school district does not have the money to fund it. http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...ol-sits-unused

We have saab from sweeden with factories idle due to the company facing a funding crisis an unable to pay wages to it's employees. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d1a78c26-9...#axzz1QAla14s8

As for the stocks and stock markets.. These are manipulated by the globalists to the nth degree.

America / Europe what have you.

Horrible thread.

Fellows

So... Average people in Sweden are happier and live happier lives. Their education is better. Their homes are nicer. They travel more often.

Not only that, but their stock markets have outperformed ours.

A business there is not doing so well (so what?)

Government funding in the US is not doing so well (doesn't this support MY point, not yours?)

Stocks are manipulated.

You didn't read the linked paper.

So... in conclusion...

Horrible non-sequitur.

Fact:

Socialized countries are outperforming the US financially since the Reagan Era. Look at the example of Canada, for God's sake. The Canadian stock market has outperformed the US stock market twofold since Bush entered office. Despite (or maybe in part because of?) the presence of a more socialist policy.

Conclusion:

Saying adding more socialized policies in the US will make things worse in the US is disproved FUD.

You say, "I look around and I see America failing to be fiscally sound."

I agree with this entirely.

One way to make America more fiscally sound is to eliminate unneeded spending like oil subsidies, Wall Street bail-outs and global policing, and to raise taxes to the appropriate level to cover the needed spending that provides a social safety net and standard of living. We need to cut corporate tax loopholes.

That would make America "fiscally sound".

What's that you say? Raising taxes will harm America? That's the point of the thread, that you've missed. No, it will not.
post #4 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Not only do social democracies provide a better living for a greater majority of citizens, they also produce better financial performance.

On with the shitstorm of attacking the messenger, denying the findings, presenting unproven and disproved theories as 'fact', saying people who believe these findings are ignorant without producing any facts to counter them, and other overall ignorance... Come on, guys, let's have it. Sigh.

Stocks Of Socialized Countries Have Outperformed U.S. Since Reagan Era

Since the rates before Reagan were much higher, wouldn't the stock returns also be much higher? Why start with Reagan? If the United States had the confiscatory tax rates before Reagan then the study should begin there and the change in the rate of return should be noted.

I'm pretty sure there's a reason they didn't do that. BTW, this bit I noted is not attacking the messenger, it is a discussion of methodology. When you draw an arbitrary line in the sand, you have to state why. Good studies also attempt to mitigate outside influences when drawing conclusions. This study does not appear to do that.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #5 of 338
No one is stopping you from moving there, Oh, wait yes they are, The Swedish Government is.
post #6 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Their homes are nicer.

What is this based on? I have been to places like Paris France and I can tell you that social paradise has a huge social problem despite the things about Paris I love to death. Sweden is mostly swedes and does not have unskilled undereducated immigrants from "third world" economies across the border from it flooding it with kids in the public schools there and ER rooms and other social benefits. Especially not at the scale that places California and France deal with.

Socialism can work if everyone pays in enough of a "premium" to fund what is being collectively paid for. Roads / bridges, Schools, etc.

Socialism is an utter cespool of a failure when more than half of those who benefit from the benefits don't pay even 10% of the costs to fund the benefits.

Take an immigrant family here in Fort Worth who lives in a home where they pay in Property tax on a junky run down home a tax of about $ 800 - 1,200. These folks have say 4 children. It costs about $9,000 per year to educate one of these 4 kids so for all four kids we are looking at close to $36,000 per year.

As you can see this is not the guest at the hotel paying their fair share to support all the elements of the hotel.

In Sweden where most are educated and they have fewer kids per capita. It is likely that their socialized services like education don't have upside down funding issues like in certain areas where MANY don't pay diddly towards what it is they benefit from.

Paris has many immigrants from north africa who live horrible lives in Paris.

So I think when you take a place like Sweden you have a very special situation that is seemingly immune from the complications in life. Almost like Leave it to Beaver in the 50's America.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #7 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Socialism can work if everyone pays in enough of a "premium" to fund what is being collectively paid for. Roads / bridges, Schools, etc.

Socialism is an utter cespool of a failure when more than half of those who benefit from the benefits don't pay even 10% of the costs to fund the benefits.

More succinctly: One* of the reasons that socialism inevitably fails is that, eventually, you run out of other people's money.

It seems a quote is in order here:

"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." -- Frédéric Bastiat


*Another, of course, is that it can't calculate.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #8 of 338
Thread Starter 
OMG...

I show you where socialism has been an utter success, and you come up with 'socialism is a cesspool of a failure'... gotta love hyperbole.

Sure. Sweden is a success because there are no immigrants there. That's not racism. Right. France isn't a success because... why exactly? If you think there is a bigger problem with the poor in France than in the States then you really don't get out much. What about Canada? No comment, because it doesn't fit in with your excuses? Meanwhile you don't think you should help the poor (i.e. help pay for their education through your taxes) because they are immigrants. I thought you were Christian! You're not exactly hurting (buying camping gear you may not need and having family holidays every year sounds like you're not hurting) because these people have opportunity (which if they didn't have they would be hurting). WWJD if he were making a stable living as you are? Complain about taxes, or about the government using those taxes for (god forbid) helping the poor? Of course, we know Paul did exactly the opposite (here's where MJ makes the specious claim that we don't understand Romans 13 although it's clear as day).

We draw a line in the sand with Reagan because the time since Reagan has been 'the golden age of laissez faire capitalism'. It's the changes since Reagan that the study proves don't work the way theorists said they would.

Stock markets in socialized democracies have outperformed the US since the Reagan era. Scaremongers say socialism has the opposite effect, and they are obviously wrong. Can we address the point, or shall we carry on with hyperbole (socialism is a cesspool of failure!) non-sequitur (but it's not fair, we have to educate those illegal immigrants!) or excuses (but... But... Sweden doesn't have immigrants! Sweden has oil... Canada has er... Nevermind.)?
post #9 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

OMG...

We draw a line in the sand with Reagan because the time since Reagan has been 'the golden age of laissez faire capitalism'. It's the changes since Reagan that the study proves don't work the way theorists said they would.

If Reagan was the change to suboptimal stock performance, then it makes perfect sense that in the era before him, stocks performed in an optimal manner. You have a dozen Democratic presidents, their tax rates and their policies to show what optimal should have been.

[/QUOTE]Stock markets in socialized democracies have outperformed the US since the Reagan era. Scaremongers say socialism has the opposite effect, and they are obviously wrong. Can we address the point, or shall we carry on with hyperbole (socialism is a cesspool of failure!) non-sequitur (but it's not fair, we have to educate those illegal immigrants!) or excuses (but... But... Sweden doesn't have immigrants! Sweden has oil... Canada has er... Nevermind.)?[/QUOTE]

Stock markets relate to GDP how exactly? They relate to average income how? They relate to progress how? You do this often Tonton. You grab something and with no explanation declare it has proven something. I can post a picture of a unicorn and declare a point proven. That doesn't mean it explains anything.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #10 of 338
Thread Starter 
Hey, I'll do your side a favor, since I know more about this than you do, living in a successful social pseudo-democracy (we'll gain slightly more democracy in 2017) myself, and I can stick to the issue. I'll give you an example of a fiscally failed social democracy that I can't argue against. Iceland. Now let's see where you go with that.
post #11 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Stock markets relate to GDP how exactly? They relate to average income how? They relate to progress how? You do this often Tonton. You grab something and with no explanation declare it has proven something. I can post a picture of a unicorn and declare a point proven. That doesn't mean it explains anything.

GDP relates to standard of living how? Average income relates to standard of living how? 'Progress' is defined, how? The most horrible non-sequitur of all is the stupid idea that these things are the goal or that these things necessarily help the average person.

But that's beside the point. The stock market is an indicator of financial progress for people who believe as you do. Invest in an indexed fund and you get rich on the market when it goes up, and the majority of investors (whose wealth you apparently define as progress) do some form of just that. Had they invested in stocks from social democracies, they would have gained more than they would have in the US. But 'free market theory' predicts exactly the opposite should happen. This prediction has failed to materialize in real life governments. In oher words, it has failed.
post #12 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

GDP relates to standard of living how? Non-sequitur.

Gross Domestic Product is the total worth of all economic activity within a given time-frame.

That would indeed be important to determining how one economy has outperformed another. In fact it is a the most common measure to determine such things.

Also what is meant by outperform?

One last thing. I've looked at this article and tried to even find several other mentions of it. They mention a paper but they never actually mention the title of the paper, author or who published it. They list several people commenting on it, but not the actual paper itself. It is only referred to generically as "a paper".

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #13 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Fact:

Socialized countries are outperforming the US financially since the Reagan Era. Look at the example of Canada, for God's sake. The Canadian stock market has outperformed the US stock market twofold since Bush entered office. Despite (or maybe in part because of?) the presence of a more socialist policy.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Canada has had a conservative economic policy since Jean Chretien decided to slay the deficit after being elected in 1993. They cut budgets far further than the preceding Conservative government and got Canada's budgetary deficit eliminated due to the national sales tax the Conservatives had implemented.

Furthermore, Canada's banking system was "bailed out" not by Obama-and-Europe-style blank cheques to the wealthy but by a brilliant Tax Free Savings Account scheme concocted by our Conservative PM (who happens to be an Economist.)

The only parts of our economy that are really giving trouble are the heavily unionized sectors, like the postal service, which is currently on strike because they want to continue to retire at 55, get 7 weeks of vacation a year and 'bank' sick days.
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post #14 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

What is this based on? I have been to places like Paris France and I can tell you that social paradise has a huge social problem despite the things about Paris I love to death. Sweden is mostly swedes and does not have unskilled undereducated immigrants from "third world" economies across the border from it flooding it with kids in the public schools there and ER rooms and other social benefits. Especially not at the scale that places California and France deal with.

Socialism can work if everyone pays in enough of a "premium" to fund what is being collectively paid for. Roads / bridges, Schools, etc.

Socialism is an utter cespool of a failure when more than half of those who benefit from the benefits don't pay even 10% of the costs to fund the benefits.

Take an immigrant family here in Fort Worth who lives in a home where they pay in Property tax on a junky run down home a tax of about $ 800 - 1,200. These folks have say 4 children. It costs about $9,000 per year to educate one of these 4 kids so for all four kids we are looking at close to $36,000 per year.

As you can see this is not the guest at the hotel paying their fair share to support all the elements of the hotel.

In Sweden where most are educated and they have fewer kids per capita. It is likely that their socialized services like education don't have upside down funding issues like in certain areas where MANY don't pay diddly towards what it is they benefit from.

Paris has many immigrants from north africa who live horrible lives in Paris.

So I think when you take a place like Sweden you have a very special situation that is seemingly immune from the complications in life. Almost like Leave it to Beaver in the 50's America.

Fellows

Since Christianity plays a major aspect in your life, (according to your posts), and also supposedly the lives and outlook of a large proportion of the American public, which system would you think Jesus would approve the more?

(a) Predatory jungle-law capitalism, or (b) a European style mixed economy with social safety nets?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #15 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Since Christianity plays a major aspect in your life, (according to your posts), and also supposedly the lives and outlook of a large proportion of the American public, which system would you think Jesus would approve the more?

(a) Predatory jungle-law capitalism, or (b) a European style mixed economy with social safety nets?

When liberals pose insane questions like that, it actually does make Fox News look fair and balanced.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #16 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

One last thing. I've looked at this article and tried to even find several other mentions of it. They mention a paper but they never actually mention the title of the paper, author or who published it. They list several people commenting on it, but not the actual paper itself. It is only referred to generically as "a paper".

Click on the word 'paper' in the story. It's a link, Sherlock.
post #17 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

You have no idea what you're talking about. Canada has had a conservative economic policy since Jean Chretien decided to slay the deficit after being elected in 1993. They cut budgets far further than the preceding Conservative government and got Canada's budgetary deficit eliminated due to the national sales tax the Conservatives had implemented.

Furthermore, Canada's banking system was "bailed out" not by Obama-and-Europe-style blank cheques to the wealthy but by a brilliant Tax Free Savings Account scheme concocted by our Conservative PM (who happens to be an Economist.)

The only parts of our economy that are really giving trouble are the heavily unionized sectors, like the postal service, which is currently on strike because they want to continue to retire at 55, get 7 weeks of vacation a year and 'bank' sick days.

And yet you have socialized medicine. Socialized housing policy. Socialized tax system that taxes income and profit higher than the US does. That's what I'm talking about.
post #18 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

In Sweden where most are educated and they have fewer kids per capita.

Yet Conservatives in the US are constantly attacking the slowing birth rate as a problem. Genius!
post #19 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

When liberals pose insane questions like that, it actually does make Fox News look fair and balanced.

And when Conservatives approach questions like that with naive dismissal... Oh, fuck it, never mind... You won't change.
post #20 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

We draw a line in the sand with Reagan because the time since Reagan has been 'the golden age of laissez faire capitalism'.

I'm sorry but, frankly, that's totally ludicrous. I think here we've discovered a fundamental problem in your view of the world if you believe what you said there is actually true.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #21 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

GDP relates to standard of living how? Average income relates to standard of living how?

Well it sure as hell relates much more than a stock market index does.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #22 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

OMG...

I show you where socialism has been an utter success, and you come up with 'socialism is a cesspool of a failure'... gotta love hyperbole.

Don't mix my words. I said above the cesspool statement that socialism can work when everyone pays in a "premuim" which will sustain and ensure that which is being socialized. (roads, bridges, schools, hospitals etc.) When you fail to have everyone pay in a decent portion of a "premium" then the programs start to have cracks in the funding and you see stories of teachers being laid off and entire schools that have been built not able to be opened due to funding shortages. California in the US anyway has higher taxes than most of the US yet they have so many funding problems. Higher taxes does not solve all problems in fact sometimes higher taxes only drives people out of the state. I just read a story I think from the NYTimes that said "Blacks" are leaving New York for the south because the cost of living is too high in NY. The New York Times mind you....

Quote:
Sure. Sweden is a success because there are no immigrants there. That's not racism. Right.

It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with economics. If you want to make it racial than you are being intellectually lazy. I stated facts.
Quote:
France isn't a success because... why exactly?

If I did not live in the US I could see myself living in France thank you very much. This said. I have never had so many street people harrass me and my wife as I have in Paris France. I have been to many large US cities and yes there are poor and homeless. But with your argument about how wonderful things are in "socialized" countries I would expect Paris France to be a bit less congested with so many people that are in hard times on the street. Yet they are there and it is a very sad way to live and I feel bad for them.

Quote:
Stock markets in socialized democracies have outperformed the US since the Reagan era. Scaremongers say socialism has the opposite effect, and they are obviously wrong. Can we address the point, or shall we carry on with hyperbole (socialism is a cesspool of failure!) non-sequitur (but it's not fair, we have to educate those illegal immigrants!) or excuses (but... But... Sweden doesn't have immigrants! Sweden has oil... Canada has er... Nevermind.)?

Europe has many SOLID companies. I could compile a list of all of the very high quality companies that are within Europe and it does not surprise me that their stocks have done well. Siemens, BMW, Total / Fina, Novartis, Alcatel, Vivendi, VW, Pernod-Ricard Where to stop?

I am not surprised that Europe has quality stocks and stock performance. The european country that I am most impressed with for economic reasons is Germany. They have low unemployment. They export well that which they produce. This builds their prosperiety and is why I argue that America needs to do more to export more of a percentage of our overall GDP.

I never said America was better than Europe. I just think we have different situations and problems to work through.

I am not against socialism that works. I am for it. I am against socialism that is doomed to fail.

I would rather pay taxes to drive on roads than pay a toll on every damn road I drive on.

etc.

One thing I am SICK of subsidizing however are all of the military ventures that the US has decided to embark on over the last soooo many years....

It is overkill pardon the pun.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #23 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Since Christianity plays a major aspect in your life, (according to your posts), and also supposedly the lives and outlook of a large proportion of the American public, which system would you think Jesus would approve the more?

(a) Predatory jungle-law capitalism, or (b) a European style mixed economy with social safety nets?

I would rather have a european style mixed economy with social safety nets.

I think that some safety net kinds of things can be administered with intelligence and oversight to prevent an overabundance of fraud and abuse.

In the us we have so many who abuse the system "medicare fraud" etc. but this is not to say I am against safety nets for the down and out.

FRANKLY I would rather see the money spent on prisons go to education. I think education is the key to a future of prosperity.

The us has some imbalances.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #24 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I would rather have a european style mixed economy with social safety nets.

I think that some safety net kinds of things can be administered with intelligence and oversight to prevent an overabundance of fraud and abuse.

In the us we have so many who abuse the system "medicare fraud" etc. but this is not to say I am against safety nets for the down and out.

FRANKLY I would rather see the money spent on prisons go to education. I think education is the key to a future of prosperity.

The us has some imbalances.

Fellows

Fellowship, we honestly seem to be in agreement here. I don't see why you've attacked my thread. The entire point of this thread is that it's not socialism that is the problem, as free-market capitalists would have us believe. It's the US system that is the problem. My implication here is that if we address the problems that exist within the US system and follow more of the European model, instead of always pushing against the European model, then we will see an improvement. If we don't follow that system... we may not see any improvement.
post #25 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Fellowship, we honestly seem to be in agreement here. I don't see why you've attacked my thread. The entire point of this thread is that it's not socialism that is the problem, as free-market capitalists would have us believe. It's the US system that is the problem. My implication here is that if we address the problems that exist within the US system and follow more of the European model, instead of always pushing against the European model, then we will see an improvement. If we don't follow that system... we may not see any improvement.

Listen to this exchange,

Click the play button.

http://mcalvanyweeklycommentary.com/06-22/

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #26 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Listen to this exchange,

Click the play button.

http://mcalvanyweeklycommentary.com/06-22/

Fellows

Amazing. Within one full hour, the guest and host keep repeating "Western Socialism" as the problem, but there are two problems with this:

1. What he describes in Greece as being a problem is not Socialism. It's overspending. Overspending is wrong, whether it's overspending for social programs, or overspending on overseas wars and oil subsidies. BUT... here's where the US Tea Party and certain Conservatives (not Republicans) get it wrong... there is more than one way to address overspending. Cutting spending is only one of those ways. Filling the tax gap is the other. There are social programs, such as health care, that are NEEDED programs, and even if we can't pay for them under the current tax system and current tax rates, cutting them is not a solution. The US currently has one of the lowest effective tax rates for corporations and high earners in the world. This goes back to the point of this thread.

2. He neglects to mention that Greece is one of the least socialist of the European governments.

It's clear he doesn't understand what Socialism is, and he's just using Greece as a bogeyman to scare people away from Socialist ideas which are working in other countries, where there may be little or no debt involved.

Now with this in mind, listen to the program again, Fellowship, and tell me I'm not right.
post #27 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And yet you have socialized medicine. Socialized housing policy. Socialized tax system that taxes income and profit higher than the US does. That's what I'm talking about.

I think single-payer is a decent system overall, but unions are pulling it apart. Costs are unsustainable and everybody knows it. You can't announce funding increases of 6% a year forever and expect the math to work.

Again, you're 20 years too late. The Feds largely withdrew from socialized housing under the 1993 Liberals, and right now Toronto is in the process of selling off major parts of its social housing. That housing is in a terrible state of disrepair, not to mention the crime and other problems plaguing those neighbourhoods.

With taxes, Canada replaced an excise tax with a national sales tax two decades back, and recently melded the national tax with the provincial tax to create the HST. We tax consumption primarily, and personal and corporate taxes are being reduced as much as possible.

Federal corporate taxes in Canada have a max rate of 16.5%, in the U.S., the max rate is 35%.
Federal personal taxes in Canada have a max rate of 29%. In the U.S., the max rate is 35%.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #28 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I think single-payer is a decent system overall, but unions are pulling it apart. Costs are unsustainable and everybody knows it. You can't announce funding increases of 6% a year forever and expect the math to work.

Again, you're 20 years too late. The Feds largely withdrew from socialized housing under the 1993 Liberals, and right now Toronto is in the process of selling off major parts of its social housing. That housing is in a terrible state of disrepair, not to mention the crime and other problems plaguing those neighbourhoods.

With taxes, Canada replaced an excise tax with a national sales tax two decades back, and recently melded the national tax with the provincial tax to create the HST. We tax consumption primarily, and personal and corporate taxes are being reduced as much as possible.

Federal corporate taxes in Canada have a max rate of 16.5%, in the U.S., the max rate is 35%.
Federal personal taxes in Canada have a max rate of 29%. In the U.S., the max rate is 35%.



Again, you have to look at 'effective tax'. Maximum tax doesn't count for shit. How much tax did Exxon pay last year? How much profit did they make? Name one Canadian company that gets away with that bullshit. Likewise for income tax.

Canada is more Socialist than the US, and for you to imply otherwise is quite simply a lie.
post #29 of 338
tonton could you please document all the free market successes for comparison?
post #30 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

tonton could you please document all the free market successes for comparison?

I would, except there aren't any. Well... actually, honestly... financially speaking I would say China. But the free-market success of China under an under-regulated capitalist business environment is only working in conjunction with massive corruption, human rights atrocities and other criminal abuse. Is it worth it in the name of "economic progress"? Ask yourself. And then, when you get put in jail for no apparent reason at all, because someone somewhere out-bribed you, ask yourself again.

But seriously... China is the freest fully operational market (in terms of pure capitalism) that exists today.
post #31 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I would, except there aren't any. Well... actually, honestly... financially speaking I would say China. But the free-market success of China under an under-regulated capitalist business environment is only working in conjunction with massive corruption, human rights atrocities and other criminal abuse*. Is it worth it in the name of "economic progress"? Ask yourself. And then, when you get put in jail for no apparent reason at all, because someone somewhere out-bribed you, ask yourself again.

This is an example of freedom how exactly?

*While you are not specific on what you mean by "human rights atrocities and other criminal abuse" (and some on the left think it's a human rights violation if you don't have 6 weeks of paid vacation ) this would also not square with true liberty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But seriously... China is the freest fully operational market (in terms of pure capitalism) that exists today.

Here's one index that says you're wrong about that. According to them, there are 134 that are freer economically-speaking than China, and the most free, economically-speaking is where you live.

Oh, by the way, two of the countries mentioned (Canada and Denmark) in the article you linked to are actually ranked higher in economic freedom than the US (6th and 8th to the US at 9th.) Both of those actually increasing freedom over the 10 year period measured while the US has remained stable or gone down.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #32 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

This is an example of freedom how exactly?

*While you are not specific on what you mean by "human rights atrocities and other criminal abuse" (and some on the left think it's a human rights violation if you don't have 6 weeks of paid vacation ) this would also not square with true liberty.



Here's one index that says you're wrong about that. According to them, there are 134 that are freer economically-speaking than China, and the most free, economically-speaking is where you live.

Oh, by the way, two of the countries mentioned (Canada and Denmark) in the article you linked to are actually ranked higher in economic freedom than the US (6th and 8th to the US at 9th.) Both of those actually increasing freedom over the 10 year period measured while the US has remained stable or gone down.

Let's see so if you're comparing us to them and our lost freedom that means 10 years for us as well. 8 of those were Bush and republican rule. 6 were total republican rule.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #33 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

OMG...

I show you where socialism has been an utter success, and you come up with 'socialism is a cesspool of a failure'... gotta love hyperbole.

Sure. Sweden is a success because there are no immigrants there. That's not racism. Right. France isn't a success because... why exactly? If you think there is a bigger problem with the poor in France than in the States then you really don't get out much. What about Canada? No comment, because it doesn't fit in with your excuses? Meanwhile you don't think you should help the poor (i.e. help pay for their education through your taxes) because they are immigrants. I thought you were Christian! You're not exactly hurting (buying camping gear you may not need and having family holidays every year sounds like you're not hurting) because these people have opportunity (which if they didn't have they would be hurting). WWJD if he were making a stable living as you are? Complain about taxes, or about the government using those taxes for (god forbid) helping the poor? Of course, we know Paul did exactly the opposite (here's where MJ makes the specious claim that we don't understand Romans 13 although it's clear as day).

We draw a line in the sand with Reagan because the time since Reagan has been 'the golden age of laissez faire capitalism'. It's the changes since Reagan that the study proves don't work the way theorists said they would.

Stock markets in socialized democracies have outperformed the US since the Reagan era. Scaremongers say socialism has the opposite effect, and they are obviously wrong. Can we address the point, or shall we carry on with hyperbole (socialism is a cesspool of failure!) non-sequitur (but it's not fair, we have to educate those illegal immigrants!) or excuses (but... But... Sweden doesn't have immigrants! Sweden has oil... Canada has er... Nevermind.)?


You're hilarious, tonton.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #34 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Let's see so if you're comparing us to them and our lost freedom that means 10 years for us as well. 8 of those were Bush and republican rule. 6 were total republican rule.

What's your point?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #35 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

This is an example of freedom how exactly?

If you have money in China you can pretty much do whatever you want. All you have to do is grease the palms of certain people, and that's a much cheaper alternative than competing legally in most markets. There is almost zero effective regulation of economic activity.

I'll remind you that we're taking about economic freedom here. Not freedom in general.

One example of this is the thriving counterfeit market in nearly every industry that exists.

Besides lack of regulation, other factors which lead to relative economic freedom in China are low taxes, and low overhead costs such as labor, real estate and transportation.
post #36 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If you have money in China you can pretty much do whatever you want. All you have to do is grease the palms of certain people, and that's a much cheaper alternative than competing legally in most markets. There is almost zero effective regulation of economic activity.

Ummm...but you seem to have glossed over the putting someone in jail piece. That's not about freedom. Governments do that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'll remind you that we're taking about economic freedom here. Not freedom in general.

You say that like these two concepts are easily separable. Perhaps this is a key to our communication disconnects. Freedom is freedom. There isn't "economic freedom" or "political freedom" or "some other kind of freedom." There is freedom.

So, I ask, how is the government putting people in jail at the behest or bribe of someone else freedom? How is violating someone's basic right of life, liberty and property freedom? How is stealing someone's property freedom?

You wish to make the claim that China is some kind of free-market nirvana, but what I see is something very different. I see some new freedoms being granted (by the government) but a great many still being abridged or limited completely.

Yes, it is true that as it has shifted more toward market economy approaches, many, many more people in China have started to climb out of grinding poverty and sustenance living. But China is only an example of a true free-market in your imagination.

China is not a representation of freedom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Besides lack of regulation, other factors which lead to relative economic freedom in China are low taxes, and low overhead costs such as labor, real estate and transportation.

Relative to what or who?

Freedom is about more than just taxes and regulation.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #37 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What's your point?

In context to your statement I thought it was a necessary clarification. But I think you knew that.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #38 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You're hilarious, tonton.

How many times have I heard that response from SDW to various people?

I think that by itself is hilarious.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #39 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

In context to your statement I thought it was a necessary clarification. But I think you knew that.

Clarification of what?!?! You are the one bringing partisanship into this discussion. I'm discussing freedom and liberty.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #40 of 338
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Freedom is about more than just taxes and regulation.

Yes, it is. But economic freedom is about economic freedom.

You cannot have freedom in a vacuum. If we are neighbors and someone gives you the freedom to own a gun, they take away my freedom to live where there aren't any guns. Freedom is never absolute. Legal freedom is anarchy.
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