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iCloud seen as further evidence of Apple television coming late 2012

post #1 of 104
Thread Starter 
Apple's newly unveiled iCloud service, which will make it easier to share content among multiple devices, is seen by one prominent analyst as even more evidence that the company is planning to release a high-definition television set as soon as late 2012.

Gene Munster with Piper Jaffray on Thursday reiterated his long-held stance that Apple is working on its own full-fledged television set, rather than just a set-top box like the current Apple TV. He said the forthcoming iCloud service would make an Apple-branded television even more plausible.

"Apple's iCloud service for media storage makes it easier to own multiple devices and share content among them," he said in a note to investors. "At first the only media iCloud will store is music and pictures, but we believe Apple may add movies and TV shows purchased or rented in iTunes to the iCloud service, which could be viewed on a TV."

In fact, last month it was said that Apple was in negotiations with movie and television studios, in an effort to allow customers to re-download purchased content on multiple devices. Currently, iCloud allows users to obtain music they have already purchased through the iTunes Store or App Store.

Munster also cited Apple's multiple television-related patents, which he said have continued to be published by the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office as recently as May. He also restated his belief that Apple's prepayment for $3.9 billion in components could allow Apple to secure up to 50-inch LCD displays.

The latest note to investors comes quickly after a recent report claimed that Apple plans to release an iOS-powered high-definition television later this year. But Munster sees a successor to the current Apple TV set-top box more likely to arrive in late 2012.



He believes that as Apple moves toward the release of a rumored television set, the company may open up the existing iOS-powered $99 Apple TV to third-party developers. He sees an official App Store for the Apple TV debuting within the next year.

"The final step would be bringing the Apple TV software and the App Store to an Apple Television," he said. "Apple's expertise in software and apps would be a strong differentiator for the company in the television market."

Munster said that an Apple television could add $2.5 billion, or 2 percent, to Apple's revenue in 2012, growing to $4 billion, or 3 percent in 2013. By 2014, the analyst sees a supposed Apple television earning the company $6 billion.
post #2 of 104
Next it'll be "iOS 5 seen as further evidence of xMac..."

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #3 of 104
It's just going to be a giant iPad or an enormous iPhone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct1_r_61sk8
post #4 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalG View Post

It's just going to be a giant iPad or an enormous iPhone.

I wonder if there is a market for, like, a 20" iPad.
post #5 of 104
This rumour is looking more realistic but I still contend that any Apple-branded TV will be more like the "Intel Inside" branding on other vendor's PCs. I can see Samsung, LG, et al. licensing Apple's internal or direct-attach AppleTV to their premium TVs.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #6 of 104
Please, some one answer me what an Apple-branded TV would do which my current HDTV and AppleTV couldn't do?

Honestly, I buy a TV for it's picture quality and nothing else. If I want to play games or watch TV, I'll use a dedicated device!
post #7 of 104
SmartTVs are certainly the future of new TV boxes. It would expand the Apple effect with the logo constantly in people's faces, more so than it is already of course. AppleTV integrated into a TV would make sense from a consumer viewpoint. On one side I am not sure Apple is ready to fight in what is a highly commodotised market however as SmartTV (especially GoogleTV) gets stronger it could kill the ecosystem concept Apple is building piece by piece.
post #8 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalG View Post

It's just going to be a giant iPad or an enormous iPhone.

Actually, it probably will be. I doubt there will be touch features. Who wants to get off the couch and tap the tv. But it certainly will run on an ios. Knowing apple, they will provide a limited amount input ports. Dude, go to the clud. It'll be a giant iPad with a simple remote included and actual ipad remote features for those who want to integrate.

But will it be 3-d?
post #9 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Snitch View Post

I wonder if there is a market for, like, a 20" iPad.

Sure. There's a market for everything.

However, Apple doesn't mindlessly jump into every single market. They are very selective about where they place their efforts. You don't see 7" Apple netbooks on store shelves, do you?

For something like a 20" iPad, there's the issue of parts availability, pricing, demand. How many $3000 20" iPads do you think Apple could sell every month? Thousands? Is that enough to warrant making them?

My guess is there's a oversize iPad sitting in a lab in Cupertino. Remember, Apple prototypes hundreds if not thousands of designs and only a handful make it to market. Just because it can be built is not enough reason to make it a shipping product.
post #10 of 104
It's would be simpler to make the AppleTV another device in the iCloud ecosystem so you could download music/movies/photos/games from your iCloud onto the AppleTV box, rather than having to play them from an iPod/iPad/iPhone. Make AppleTV more of a home media server with hard drive again for local content and internet connection for streaming content. Replace your DVD and Cable box.
post #11 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagamer34 View Post

Please, some one answer me what an Apple-branded TV would do which my current HDTV and AppleTV couldn't do?

Honestly, I buy a TV for it's picture quality and nothing else. If I want to play games or watch TV, I'll use a dedicated device!

Apple has made an industry of combining devices either to make a more beautiful solution or a more seamless one. Look at an iMac, it's a computer built into the monitor. Isn't the logical extension an Apple HDTV that is an entertainment system built into a TV?

I'm not saying that such a device would be for everybody, but it potentially could win Apple another few million iOS users and further enrich their ecosystem.
post #12 of 104
Can you imagine the markup on this device. Look at ram for example, twice as much as it should be. Now it would take an incredible fan to buy one of these. Also who in the world wants to get up off their coin and touch their tv. Seriously that sound really dumb. Now what would be cool is a tv with kinect built in so then you can change the tv with movements and voice. Yah I know don't worry I love apple too, it's just that this would be dropping the ball
post #13 of 104
Not this pish again.
post #14 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This rumour is looking more realistic but I still contend that any Apple-branded TV will be more like the "Intel Inside" branding on other vendor's PCs. I can see Samsung, LG, et al. licensing Apple's internal or direct-attach AppleTV to their premium TVs.

I think that Apple may have prototyped the idea and in the course of that developed several tech ideas that of course they patented (as would any company) with no intention of using themselves. But in the end, the little black box is as far as they will go. Because in the end, the key is content. It's in redownloads of purchases, more rentals, subscriptions, getting companies like HBO to post their content day of airing not six months later and so on. Add to this a viable 'blu-ray' quality download format and you have a winner regardless of the hardware.

Do I think that perhaps at some point companies like Panasonic might come to Apple and ask about putting the little black box inside their tvs, sure. Might Apple say yes, perhaps. But I do not believe that Apple will ever start the conversation and we will never be ordering tvs from Apple.com or picking them up at our local Apple store.

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #15 of 104
The idea of Apple selling their own HDTV is just silly. Apple needs to get a foothold in the living room and selling their own TV is not going to get them there.

The problem with Apple TV is that it is yet another device that needs to be connected to your home theater and adds yet another remote that you need to be manage. I know that in my system if I want to watch a movie on my Apple TV it takes me three remotes to get everything set up right. And all those iOS devices out there that support AirPlay have the same problem... if I send a movie from my iPad to my Apple TV I still have to use those three remotes to get everything set up right before I'll see it.

To get the level of integration that I think is needed, Apple really has two options. First, it could sell or somehow get itself embedded in cable set top boxes. This is never going to happen though because the cable companies would never allow it. Steve has even said so publicly. The second option is to somehow get inside the TV. The only way I think this is going to work is if they can partner with a large manufacturer like Samsung to embed iOS in all of their new sets. Samsung could make a really great partner if they could convince them to do this since most of their TV's are intenet enabled already. They even have their own rudimentary app store with apps like Netflix and Pandora. It could be a real win-win for both Apple and Samsung if they could pull it off. Even better would be if it was technically possible to upgrade the existing Samsung TV's to run iOS and the iTunes store!

That's the only scenario that I think makes sense. The TV is the razor and iOS is the delivery mechanism for the razor blades. Apple is all about the platform and the eco-system, not the product which is why I don't see them announcing their own Apple HDTV. Offering a few Apple branded sets manufactured by someone else doesn't make sense either since it doesn't get them the penetration into the living room that they need.
post #16 of 104
Appel Tv, works better, I think, for Apple. It is small, and cost a lot less to build than a full Tv. What can this Tv do that Apple Tv, content & programing wise, can not do?
post #17 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This rumour is looking more realistic but I still contend that any Apple-branded TV will be more like the "Intel Inside" branding on other vendor's PCs. I can see Samsung, LG, et al. licensing Apple's internal or direct-attach AppleTV to their premium TVs.

This makes more sense.

I'd still opt for an external AppleTV.
post #18 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashaww View Post

Appel Tv, works better, I think, for Apple. It is small, and cost a lot less to build than a full Tv. What can this Tv do that Apple Tv, content & programing wise, can not do?

The key to me is the integration and the simplicity of using a single remote. Right now if I want to watch a movie on my Apple TV I need the TV remote to switch inputs to the Apple TV, the amp remote to switch audio inputs, and finally the Apple TV remote to select my movie. It's a real pain.

Or consider the situation where you want to send a video to your TV from your iPad using AirPlay. Ideally, you would initiate AirPlay on your iPad and a little popup would be displayed on your TV asking you to accept the video. This would need to work no matter what source you are watching on your TV... e.g. cable box, dvd, video game, etc. Right now you can't do this because you would only see the popup if you had your TV set to the right input source.

Additionally, if Apple were to offer an app store you would want to be able to hit a button on your remote to pop up a list of available apps and switch between them no matter what TV source you are watching and without having to juggle a handful of remotes!

That's the problem as I see it and why I think Apple has described it as a hobby up until now. To get that kind of integration they either need to get inside a cable box or inside the TV.
post #19 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Apple has made an industry of combining devices either to make a more beautiful solution or a more seamless one. Look at an iMac, it's a computer built into the monitor. Isn't the logical extension an Apple HDTV that is an entertainment system built into a TV?

I'm not saying that such a device would be for everybody, but it potentially could win Apple another few million iOS users and further enrich their ecosystem.

Monitors don't typically range in size the ways TVs do.

It would make more sense for Apple to continue to sell the AppleTV and possible license the tech to OEMs, then sell popular models in the Apple Store.
post #20 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by troehl View Post

The key to me is the integration and the simplicity of using a single remote. Right now if I want to watch a movie on my Apple TV I need the TV remote to switch inputs to the Apple TV, the amp remote to switch audio inputs, and finally the Apple TV remote to select my movie. It's a real pain.

Or consider the situation where you want to send a video to your TV from your iPad using AirPlay. Ideally, you would initiate AirPlay on your iPad and a little popup would be displayed on your TV asking you to accept the video. This would need to work no matter what source you are watching on your TV... e.g. cable box, dvd, video game, etc. Right now you can't do this because you would only see the popup if you had your TV set to the right input source.

Additionally, if Apple were to offer an app store you would want to be able to hit a button on your remote to pop up a list of available apps and switch between them no matter what TV source you are watching and without having to juggle a handful of remotes!

That's the problem as I see it and why I think Apple has described it as a hobby up until now. To get that kind of integration they either need to get inside a cable box or inside the TV.

Couldn't Apple add an IR receiver or BT control to the AppleTV, allowing the use of universal remotes? Or you could by an add-on for the iPhone to allow it to be a universal remote.

I personally hate universal remotes, and all home theater setups have the remote problem.

For most people, the AppleTV doesn't add any more complication than a DVD player; you still need the TV remote and a DVD remote to watch anything anyway.
post #21 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

It's would be simpler to make the AppleTV another device in the iCloud ecosystem so you could download music/movies/photos/games from your iCloud onto the AppleTV box, rather than having to play them from an iPod/iPad/iPhone. Make AppleTV more of a home media server with hard drive again for local content and internet connection for streaming content. Replace your DVD and Cable box.

No, don't add an HDD. Just allow streaming content to the AppleTV from iCloud, much like AppleTV currently streams everything else. Don't make it the centerpiece, make it the conduit to your media.

The centerpiece is the cloud.
post #22 of 104
I don't think Apple needs to make their own TV to get into this market. Apple TV can go a lot further than where it is now, they just need to get the piece of the puzzle to get the momentum going.

I think this piece is going to be gaming. I've had this idea ever since the latest black boxed ATV came out since it runs iOS, but I'm not a game dev. If ATV can be powerful enough to act has a host 'console' like device for casual gaming, this can get momentum going. Here's the idea: I have an ATV and I can host a game. My example would be Hungry Hungry Hippos (you can look up this game if you don't remember it from your childhood ) Now when ever any of my friends come over with an iDevice, those devices can act as controllers. The point of the game is to be a hippo and run around to eat as many things as possible. You can use the accelerometer for controls, and the display can show your current score, plus an eat button. All the player's hippos will be displayed on the TV, you play in timed rounds, etc. You can even have special power-up that you can invoke from your iDevice screen, etc.

It's a simple concept, but this is something along the line of what Apple can do. It gets all owners deeper into the eco-system, drives more sales of iDevices since they're required if you want to play too, can be really cost-effective to get going (most people have an iDevice an a $100 ATV is cheaper than a Wii) and you can have lots of people playing. Once you get the ATV in the living room, you can also push the 'no more need for cable providers, use our service' mentality instead. This starts with the younger generation as they're always willing to go with newer technology.

Thoughts?
post #23 of 104
Gene Miss the boat entirely, please explain to me how it makes sense for Apple to build a television screen?

-They accomplish everything necessary through the AppleTV box, which can be updated every year with new hardware/features, and people will actually BUY IT.

-Why would anyone ever buy a massively overpriced Apple television screen? It's just a screen, and most it can be is 1080p with a frigging webcam. Stupid!

-let's see, $5,000 for an Apple 50" Display (with internals that will be obsolete/refreshed in 12 months, LOL)

Or

$900 for a normal tv that's just as good + $99 for AppleTV.

Hmm, not sure which I'd go for, Gene. It's not like its the dumbest frigging thing I've ever heard...oh wait, yes it is.

What a moron.
post #24 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by troehl View Post

The key to me is the integration and the simplicity of using a single remote. [...] if Apple were to offer an app store you would want to be able to hit a button on your remote to pop up a list of available apps and switch between them no matter what TV source you are watching and without having to juggle a handful of remotes!

That's the problem as I see it and why I think Apple has described it as a hobby up until now. To get that kind of integration they either need to get inside a cable box or inside the TV.

We know it isn't going to be the cable box, so it must be the TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

Monitors don't typically range in size the ways TVs do.

It would make more sense for Apple to continue to sell the AppleTV and possible license the tech to OEMs, then sell popular models in the Apple Store.

Apple doesn't license their tech.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #25 of 104
It is Vizio. Wholly owned. Beautiful sets, Bluetooth enabled. 98 button control which can be easily duplicated with Apple Remote with existing Vizio software. Only thing missing from current internet offerings is the Apple TV button. Ex Apple engineers.
post #26 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

The centerpiece is the cloud.

Not for me, it won't ever be. Keep that as a feature, not a requirement.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #27 of 104
The removal of Front Row from Mac OS X Lion is another evidence of Apple TV.

If Apple wants to enter the TV market, they need to reinvent it. And the most critical piece to reinvent is the remote control.

So Apple may innovate a little with the screen itself, but what must be completely new is the remote control system. Maybe something along the lines of the Wii U?
post #28 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagamer34 View Post

Please, some one answer me what an Apple-branded TV would do which my current HDTV and AppleTV couldn't do?

facetime
post #29 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieWallieWhiskers View Post

facetime

You really want people talking to you when you're cocked back in your La-Z-Boy, a gallon of Cheetos powder down your front, pants hanging open?

Okay.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #30 of 104
The main problem with the Apple HDTV idea is that people don't update their TVs that often. If Apple releases an A5-based HDTV with an App Store this year, then developers (and Apple) will be stuck supporting it for the next 10 years. Your phone and tablet, which you update more frequently, will have a better processor than your TV. It makes no sense. With the $99 Apple TV you can update every year for the best experience.
post #31 of 104
The more I think about it there are several ways Apple could go with making an actual television.

The Trial Balloon: They could make a low volume device to see if consumers were interested in the idea of an integrated solution. This would include quite a lot of tech, and make insignificant profits, but might be a springboard on to something else.

The Luxury Market: They could compete directly with B&O for the luxury end of the TV market. This would entail selling a fairly vanilla TV product, with integrated ATV perhaps, but with focus on a really beautiful encasement.

The iOS invasion: A full blown wifi iOS TV that uses either an iPhone, an iPad, an iPodTouch or a cheap dedicated touch panel remote to control it. This would be a mass market product with relatively small margins, but designed to get iOS into the home in a big way.

If Apple's aim is defensive here than they'd go either the first or second route. If they are going disruptive then they'd go with option 3.
post #32 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by troehl View Post

The problem with Apple TV is that it is yet another device that needs to be connected to your home theater and adds yet another remote that you need to be manage. I know that in my system if I want to watch a movie on my Apple TV it takes me three remotes to get everything set up right. And all those iOS devices out there that support AirPlay have the same problem... if I send a movie from my iPad to my Apple TV I still have to use those three remotes to get everything set up right before I'll see it.

You need one of these.

I think it's been well established before that the TV market is commoditized with thin margins. Not the kind of market Apple plays in - but the same could be said for the Windows PC market, but Apple still makes lots of money on Macs.

Another problem I have with an Apple TV is that the TV is frequently just a display device connected to a much larger home theater system - at least at the high-end, which is where Apple likes to play. Receiver, amps, Blu-ray, game systems, lots of different speakers, etc. And all of those have multiple products that people like for different reasons. Yes, an Apple branded TV with aTV built in could be a decent television. But there's no way Apple is going to manufacture their own panels, and all the panel makers sell their own TVs.

The one angle I see this making any sense is the "if you're serious about software you make your own hardware" mantra. Apple could control the entire UI for the TV and content on the TV. Integrated iTunes with a NetFlix like subscription plan could put a serious hurt on NetFlix. Toss in the powerful hardware iOS has coupled with games and you could have a contender.

But I really don't see why they'd bother. An HDMI connector from an aTV is not that hard. And displays last far longer than computer CPUs. But the same argument has been made about the iMac, and look how long it took Apple to release the Mac mini.

- Jasen.
post #33 of 104
Apple will make a TV with zero inputs & one optical audio output. and it will be glorious.
bring it home, plug in the power, plug in the audio, turn it on, enter your appleid/password, done.
post #34 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

The main problem with the Apple HDTV idea is that people don't update their TVs that often. If Apple releases an A5-based HDTV with an App Store this year, then developers (and Apple) will be stuck supporting it for the next 10 years. Your phone and tablet, which you update more frequently, will have a better processor than your TV. It makes no sense. With the $99 Apple TV you can update every year for the best experience.

Yes, but there's a fundamental difference between a TV and an iPad, which is that the TV isn't a portable device so it doesn't have to be power efficient in the same way. It would be fairly easy for them to throw in enough CPU/GPU to still be viable in 10 years time- after all the PS3 is still more powerful than an iPhone.
post #35 of 104
Apple may add some software innovation to the TV but what about hardware? Sure I want all my iOS devices working seamlessly, imagine looking at a website or a video on your iPad and then wirelessly beaming it to your TV to share with others. You could even have apps designed just for iTV and iPad/iPhone. For example, ESPN can make an app that knows what sports event you watching and automatically give you all the stats on your iPad. We could even have our guides/DVR on our iPads so we don't have to pull it up over our current show we watching... There are endless possibilities that can be done with the software part here, but I still want Apple to bring something to the hardware of todays TVs.

I have the 58' Panasonic Viera 3D TV that had the best 2D HD picture of 2010, now I am not gonna sell that and buy an Apple branded TV unless the TV has some bad ass features. Using Samsung components and just throwing in software and Apple logo won't do it for me. Plus I don't want to go below 50' anymore.

We'll just have to wait and see.
post #36 of 104
It would be far easier if Apple just licensed AirPlay (with video) to a bunch of TV manufacturers.

That way, anyone with an iDevice gets to show whatever content (including apps -- see Real Racing) from the iTunes/iCloud ecosystem on their TV.

Apple get cash with almost zero risk. Apple sell more iDevices. TV makers get a little sprinkling of fairy dust. Everyone a winner!
post #37 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You really want people talking to you when you're cocked back in your La-Z-Boy, a gallon of Cheetos powder down your front, pants hanging open?

Okay.

Thanks. Now our non-US members have an even more repulsive stereotypical image of Americans.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #38 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Thanks. Now our non-US members have an even more repulsive stereotypical image of Americans.

how do you know he's american?
post #39 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenj1 View Post

I think it's been well established before that the TV market is commoditized with thin margins. Not the kind of market Apple plays in - but the same could be said for the Windows PC market, but Apple still makes lots of money on Macs.

Even if Apple decided that they couldn't achieve large margins in the TV market they might still choose to enter it, if they felt it was supporting another market in which they do. Consider the iTunes store, margins there are tiny, but Apple puts a lot of effort into it because it supports their iPods/iPads/iPhones. Or their application software like Pages - again not big profit centre for them, but it supports their Mac sales.

So if they had a plan by which an HDTV would help entrench iPad/iPhone in the consumer market they might do it, even if it was expected to only break-even.

Quote:
But there's no way Apple is going to manufacture their own panels, and all the panel makers sell their own TVs.

Yes but not all TV makers build their own panels. I don't think Apple would find it hard to get a supplier for high quality TV panels, any more than it has a problem getting suppliers for phone or tablet or laptop or desktop.

Quote:
But I really don't see why they'd bother.

The main reason to my mind why they might bother is if they think that the consumer PC market is doomed the way that they saw that long term the dedicated mp3 player market was doomed. If smart TVs are destined to replace desktop PCs in the home then it makes sense for them to get into that market and cannibalize themselves, rather than let somebody else do it.
post #40 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You really want people talking to you when you're cocked back in your La-Z-Boy, a gallon of Cheetos powder down your front, pants hanging open?

Okay.

Have you seen idiocracy?
Seriously, seamless facetime in your living room is the first excellent reason I have heard for an Apple TV.

Also, the comment about reinventing the remote is probably dead on. That's where we need innovation.
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