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Apple releases $49 Thunderbolt cable, offers external RAID systems - Page 2

post #41 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

The reason is pretty simple. It's too much trouble to bother certifying every specific drive that you could use out there with a market that quickly changes like hard drives. These things are commodities anyway. Only in the biggest data center applications do vendors care which drives go into these things. Yes, there are some issues occasionally...the earliest 1.5 TB drives were problematic in RAIDs and not every older RAID supports advanced formatting (4K blocks). But most of the time, if they mean "enterprise quality", it means find you a 7200 RPM drive from a major vendor that you like and proceed.


I just want to know since we will be buying replacement drives for swapping at the same time, and they all need to match.

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post #42 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

If it weren't for Promise leaving out the cable, this wouldn't be necessary. Most external drives include the data cable. These Promise devices are the first I've seen to leave out the data cable.

Wonder if apple is giving them like $5/unit to keep it out...I would if I were trying to sell Apple brand interface cables that aren't available widely from other vendors.
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post #43 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgginc View Post

Then a Thunerbolt-FW adaptor takes care of the other, less common uses of FW (scanners, audio gear, etc), and Apple starts shipping computers with only Tunderbolt and USB. USB will likely always have a price advantage for things like keyboards, mice, and even the smaller thumb drives. So I don't see USB being dropped anytime soon.

I don't think Thunderbolt proponents are saying that USB will be dropped. There is no point for human interface devices to be directly on a Thunderbolt bus, except maybe through a hub adapter. I'm guessing that thumb drives won't be certified because devices are supposed to have a pass-through to be a legit Thunderbolt device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Right_said_fred View Post

I have to assume a touch of sarcasm, I don't think its sad, or regrettable, merely inconvenient

More or less. I don't understand how the store's search engine can perform so poorly at indexing its products, especially when Apple is starting to ramp up a much more ambitious internet platform soon. I've seen better web store indexing from much lower profile web stores. Also, there have been times that I didn't think Apple sold an item because it didn't show on a search within the store, when it was the search utility that didn't index the store properly.
post #44 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


More or less. I don't understand how the store's search engine can perform so poorly at indexing its products, especially when Apple is starting to ramp up a much more ambitious internet platform soon. I've seen better web store indexing from much lower profile web stores. Also, there have been times that I didn't think Apple sold an item because it didn't show on a search within the store, when it was the search utility that didn't index the store properly.

The only way to see an Apple part number is to add it to your cart then view the cart.
Lame!
post #45 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

Wonder if apple is giving them like $5/unit to keep it out...I would if I were trying to sell Apple brand interface cables that aren't available widely from other vendors.

Unlikely. This isn't 1997...Apple doesn't need the money that badly. More likely Apple is the only vendor that actually has completed cables manufactured right now and rather than hold up shipment of a $1400-$2000 box for a $50 cable, they are just relying on the customer to buy it through Apple. As cable manufacturers catch up, it's likely you'll see them and other vendors include them like they do Firewire and USB cables now.
post #46 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

Not in the market for Thunderbolt yet...but I am glad so many are cause the early adopters that will spend $50 on a cable pay the R and D costs for guys like me who cant quite afford to be on the cutting edge...that said, even for cutting edge tech that cable should be no more than $25...Apple must model their cable business after monster...not a bad plan for stock holders

$50 for an active cable isn't too bad.

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post #47 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Define and defense your position.

Price. Not saying thunderbolt wont work, it will for devices that neally needs it. But it wont be mainstream because of prices. USB 3.0 is backward compatiple AND cheap and still very fast.

IF seagates come up with a Thunderbold adapter, I will be more than curious to see how much it cost. Currently firewire adapters are 25$. imo you are better off buying an USB 3.0 drive and get the firewire adapter for 25$ than buying a seagate "mac" drive which are 40% more expensive and only include USB 2.0 and firewire adapters. With the USB 3.0 drive, you get USB 2.0/3.0 and for 25$ a firewire adapter, for a total cost that less expensive than a "mac" drive. And you will be able to upgrade to thunderbold when the adapter comes out.

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post #48 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

Price. Not saying thunderbolt wont work, it will for devices that neally needs it. But it wont be mainstream because of prices.

Licensing is free.

Quote:
buying a seagate "mac" drive

Complete scam. They need sued for that. This isn't even a valid point.
post #49 of 81
Two points:

1. A Mac Mini, strapped to one of these boxes ***is*** your Mac Pro.
2. Thunderbolt is effectively 4 10Gbps channels. The DisplayPort data is not treated specially compared to non-DisplayPort data, and it is not mandatory that you have an external monitor on the cable. Has anyone priced a dual-port 10Gbps NIC lately? They aren't exactly cheap. EVERY Thunderbolt Mac now has the equivalent of a dual-port 10Gbps NIC built in.

Search Amazon for "2CH 10GB Pcie Copper Nic Oneconnect No Cables" and you'll see it priced at $536.73. And the cables? $130 for each channel. Remember that Thunderbolt is, effectively TWO channels of 10GbE. Apple is ***subsidizing*** the cable price, not trying to rip anyone off!

Are you really complaining about a $50 cable? Try $260. Perhaps you need to be in the industry to realize how mind-boggling and bleeding edge Thunderbolt is!

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post #50 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHrubik View Post

$50 for an active cable isn't too bad.

What is active about it? It's not the kind of TB cable that has fiber optics and optical to electrical conversion in it.
post #51 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me View Post

Your feeling is wrong. The Apple Store clearly lists the PROMISE VTrak x30 Series (16x 2TB SATA) 3U RAID Subsystem at $19,999.00. The mistake in the placement of the decimal point was made by AppleInsider, not Apple.

The decimal point was in the correct place; it's the comma that wasn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tbsteph View Post

$50.00 for a 6ft cable? And I thought Monster had a monopoly on such things.

No just a patent! Apple will have to license, or get sued.
post #52 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelve View Post

Are you really complaining about a $50 cable? Try $260. Perhaps you need to be in the industry to realize how mind-boggling and bleeding edge Thunderbolt is!

Perhaps so.

But for someone only interested in connecting an external monitor, or HD, $50 is pricy. HDMI and FireWire cables are dirt cheap these days.

For thunderbolt to be successful with the masses, prices need to come down.
post #53 of 81
Thunderbolt Target mode?

Keanu sez WHOA!
post #54 of 81
All Apple, Monster et al are doing is charging what the market will bear, exploiting the ignorant, impatient and those who simply have too much money to care whether they pay $2 or $200 for a cable.

For now Thunderbolt peripherals are either high end or ultra high end. Once there are consumer Thunderbolt devices there will have to be consumer priced cables to connect them.
post #55 of 81
Target disk mode over TB is blazing fast! Has anyone heard whether you can do IP over TB like you can with FW?
post #56 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelve View Post

Two points:

1. A Mac Mini, strapped to one of these boxes ***is*** your Mac Pro.

I liked everything you said except this. Sure, a Mac Mini w/Thunderbolt is way cool. Upgrade it to Sandy Bridge and toss in some quad core processors as a BTO option and you have a modern day SE/30. But I still think most pros wouldn't give up 6-12 cores of Xeon badness, not to mention the data throughout of that system.

A smaller Mac Pro would be pretty cool though. After all, how many PCI slots do you really need these days?
post #57 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

All Apple, Monster et al are doing is charging what the market will bear, exploiting the ignorant, impatient and those who simply have too much money to care whether they pay $2 or $200 for a cable.

No, that's what Monster is doing. Apple is selling the very first cable of a spec that just came out. USB cables used to be that expensive.
post #58 of 81
While I think $49 for a 6' Thunderbolt cable is ridiculous, I also think that Apple is pricing them that way because they can. The prices will come down when more accessory companies make and sell their own, and when peripheral makers include them in the box. Right now it's the scarcity that's letting Apple get away with the high price. Though even after others get in the game, it's highly likely that Apple will still charge "premium" prices.

I remember back when Apple had their extended keyboard for something like $129, while you could buy a fully functional third party keyboard for $29 or even less.
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post #59 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

Thunderbolt Target mode?

That's very nice, though very forward-looking. I can see using that when I replace a Mac that I still haven't bought yet. Given how often I've needed to upgrade lately, that could easily be six years.
post #60 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That's very nice, though very forward-looking. I can see using that when I replace a Mac that I still haven't bought yet. Given how often I've needed to upgrade lately, that could easily be six years.

Target disk mode is actually quite useful as a support tool in enterprise and education environments. Just because you won't use it doesn't mean it's useless.
post #61 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkgm View Post

Target disk mode is actually quite useful as a support tool in enterprise and education environments. Just because you won't use it doesn't mean it's useless.

Just to be clear, I didn't say I won't use it and I didn't say it was useless. But it is nice to hear that it has more immediate uses, though I'd like to hear more about it. I usually just boot from an external hard drive for my own tech support. On a given computer of mine, target disk mode is used two or three times in the entire life of the machine.
post #62 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

I liked everything you said except this. Sure, a Mac Mini w/Thunderbolt is way cool. Upgrade it to Sandy Bridge and toss in some quad core processors as a BTO option and you have a modern day SE/30. But I still think most pros wouldn't give up 6-12 cores of Xeon badness, not to mention the data throughout of that system.

A smaller Mac Pro would be pretty cool though. After all, how many PCI slots do you really need these days?

Okay. I was a bit overzealous. A Mac Mini (once the Sandy Bridge version is released) + a hot-swap drive bay over TB is a Mac Pro minus the dual processor goodness available in a Mac Pro. However, many Mac Pro's don't have 8 or 12 cores. For that matter, many people with Mac Pro's have never added a PCI adapter.

Glad to get called on something by an intelligent and respected poster. I've been reading MacRumors lately; forgot to raise my standards on the way back.
post #63 of 81
Wonder when there will be Thunderbolt cards for older Mac Pros?

Also, do the new airport routers have thunderbolt in addition to usb?
post #64 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

But I still think most pros wouldn't give up 6-12 cores of Xeon badness, not to mention the data throughout of that system.

You are correct sir. When we purchased our MacPros for Final Cut systems we always got the fastest one available. If you don't do this software advances will overwhelm the hardware too quickly. We still have two original 4 core Mac Pros, one running FCP 7 and one running Media Composer. Both work just fine. The 4 core Final Cut system can even handle true uncompressed HD (not 444) which is something the Avids have never done.

Looking forward to the rumored 16 core Mac Pros. Of course I would have to put FCP 7 on it
post #65 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by planetWC View Post

Wonder when there will be Thunderbolt cards for older Mac Pros?

When (...IF...) the next Mac Pro model comes out and includes graphics cards with Thunderbolt ports built into them instead of just Mini DisplayPort and DVI.

You install one of those in an older Mac Pro to get Thunderbolt. Otherwise you can't.

Quote:
Also, do the new airport routers have thunderbolt in addition to usb?

No.
post #66 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by planetWC View Post


Also, do the new airport routers have thunderbolt in addition to usb?

There really wouldn't be much point to that. The data needs to travel via either Gigabit Ethernet or wi-fi after you get it off the drive. Much cheaper USB can handle that throughput.
post #67 of 81
I really don't see the need to use my 2011 imac as a monitor for my 2011 macbook pro. I would however, love to see a thunderbolt type converter cable that lets me use my imac as a monitor for my gaming pc (if that's even possible).
post #68 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I was just going ask if anyone knew which drives Promise uses in these RAIDs. Is that it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I just want to know since we will be buying replacement drives for swapping at the same time, and they all need to match.

As people may have mentioned, the WD Green is from the Time Capsule.

For the Promise RAIDs it doesn't seem to specify the drives other than it is 7200rpm (the WD Caviar Greens don't specify the RPM from what I can find, people seem to think it is less than the 7200rpm standard).

I suppose you could pull the drives out when you purchase one and see what it comes with.

Not the best solution, I know. Let alone all this discussion about "enterprise class" which I am not going to rehash. I would be curious though what "class" of drives Promise RAIDs claim to be.
post #69 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgginc View Post

If you want to put 6G SSDs in there will it support SATA III?
I guess as long as it supports SATA III it’s OK for SATA II drives.

Answers from Promise:
Sata III is supported
http://www2.promise.com/storage/raid...tistic=pegasus
http://www2.promise.com/media_bank/D...0110628_EN.pdf

Answers from AnandTech:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4473/a...-available-now

"All of the available Pegasus systems ship with 7200RPM 3.5" hard drives, although Promise mentioned that we will may see SSD enabled configurations in the future. The 12TB R6 we received uses six Hitachi Deskstar 7K3000 2TB drives (HDS723020BLA642) in a 9.7TB RAID-5 configuration. The 7K3000 spins its four platters at 7200RPM and buffers data with a 64MB on-board cache. The drive has a 6Gbps SATA interface although the Pegasus R4/R6 supports SAS drives as well. All of the Pegasus devices ship in RAID 5 however they do support RAID-0/1/5/50/6/10."

I'm looking forward to AnandTech's more in depth reviews in time to come. Anand is a true hard drive/SSD fanatic and I expect a thorough review.
post #70 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

As people may have mentioned, the WD Green is from the Time Capsule.

For the Promise RAIDs it doesn't seem to specify the drives other than it is 7200rpm (the WD Caviar Greens don't specify the RPM from what I can find, people seem to think it is less than the 7200rpm standard).

They don't say what it is, but they admit the greens are closer to 5400 RPM in some of the articles.

Quote:
I suppose you could pull the drives out when you purchase one and see what it comes with.

You're paying a bit of a premium for whatever drives are in there, to remove them right away is silly, unless you plan to buy the models with 1TB drives and stuff 3TB drives in there.
post #71 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deewin View Post

I really don't see the need to use my 2011 imac as a monitor for my 2011 macbook pro. I would however, love to see a thunderbolt type converter cable that lets me use my imac as a monitor for my gaming pc (if that's even possible).

It was possible with the 2010 27" iMac, but by all reports I've seen, that went away when they put in the Thunderbolt ports.
post #72 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

I liked everything you said except this. Sure, a Mac Mini w/Thunderbolt is way cool. Upgrade it to Sandy Bridge and toss in some quad core processors as a BTO option and you have a modern day SE/30. But I still think most pros wouldn't give up 6-12 cores of Xeon badness, not to mention the data throughout of that system.

A smaller Mac Pro would be pretty cool though. After all, how many PCI slots do you really need these days?

What I think most people need from a Mac Pro is the drive bays more than the PCI slots (I could be wrong). And TB I think will solve that problem for a lot of people. Mac mini or MBP or ??? But there are also people who want a high-end graphics card that will require a Mac Pro or will need to leverage the (yet-to-be-developed) Thunderbolt-based graphics cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by planetWC View Post

Wonder when there will be Thunderbolt cards for older Mac Pros?

I remember reading that this isn't doable. The Thunderbolt controller chip needs to be physically connected to the actual bus, not just a PCI slot downstream. A motherboard will either natively support Thunderbolt or it won't, but there won't be add-on cards.

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post #73 of 81
James Galbraith at Macworld did a "first look" of the Pegasus R4 and R6 arrays and says they completely smoke FW800 and USB 2.0 based external storage: http://www.macworld.com/article/1608...underbolt.html

Also, Apple has posted an FAQ for the 2 meter Thunderbolt cable (no, I am not making that up!) : http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4614

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post #74 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

What I think most people need from a Mac Pro is the drive bays more than the PCI slots (I could be wrong). And TB I think will solve that problem for a lot of people. Mac mini or MBP or ??? But there are also people who want a high-end graphics card that will require a Mac Pro or will need to leverage the (yet-to-be-developed) Thunderbolt-based graphics cards.


I remember reading that this isn't doable. The Thunderbolt controller chip needs to be physically connected to the actual bus, not just a PCI slot downstream. A motherboard will either natively support Thunderbolt or it won't, but there won't be add-on cards.

so no add in video cards can't use Thunderbolt?

and the next mac pro will have a MXM or on board video.
post #75 of 81
More info from an iFixit teardown of the new Thunderbolt cable here: http://www.ifixit.com/blog/blog/2011...ightning-fast/

And an Ars discussion here: http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...hopping-50.ars

Long story short, these are more than just cables:



Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeB View Post

so no add in video cards can't use Thunderbolt?

I think it's more like you have to have the Thunderbolt chipset support built into the motherboard, then you should (warning: conjecture ahead) be able to drive an additional video card across the Thunderbolt bus (which is really a type of extended/external PCI bus) or drive a standard video card from the existing PCI slot.

What you won't be able to do is install some type Thunderbolt card in a PCI slot on your Mac Pro.

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post #76 of 81
Wow

Can I buy Apple Care for that Thunderbolt cable? LOL
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post #77 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Wow

Can I buy Apple Care for that Thunderbolt cable? LOL

Can I get the cost amortized over two years. I can't wait for the 500MB update files for the cable.
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post #78 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

More info from an iFixit teardown of the new Thunderbolt cable here: http://www.ifixit.com/blog/blog/2011...ightning-fast/

And an Ars discussion here: http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...hopping-50.ars

Long story short, these are more than just cables:

Thanks for posting that. That article is more informative on the subject than anything else I've seen so far.

Quote:
I think it's more like you have to have the Thunderbolt chipset support built into the motherboard, then you should (warning: conjecture ahead) be able to drive an additional video card across the Thunderbolt bus (which is really a type of extended/external PCI bus) or drive a standard video card from the existing PCI slot.

What you won't be able to do is install some type Thunderbolt card in a PCI slot on your Mac Pro.

It seems to me that a video card with a Thunderbolt plug is feasible within the unusual requirements of the technology, the video card has access to PCIe and the video output of the graphics chip. Then the way add a second or third Thunderbolt jack is to get another hybrid I/O and graphics board. It seems a bit ridiculous though, if you just need more I/O, then you're buying a graphics chip that you don't really need. But if you have a legacy Mac Pro, this might be an option, provided that the graphics chip is supported by Apple in the particular machine in question.
post #79 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

You're paying a bit of a premium for whatever drives are in there, to remove them right away is silly, unless you plan to buy the models with 1TB drives and stuff 3TB drives in there.

Err... What I said was in response to the user that was wondering what drives to buy if the original drives went down, since it is best to use matched drives in RAIDs. Hence I mentioned, one could just pull it out to see what drives they were using, and then put it back of course.

Anyway initial reviews show it shipping with Hitachi Deskstar drives, with specific models etc as I posted earlier:

From AnandTech:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4473/a...-available-now

"All of the available Pegasus systems ship with 7200RPM 3.5" hard drives, although Promise mentioned that we will may see SSD enabled configurations in the future. The 12TB R6 we received uses six Hitachi Deskstar 7K3000 2TB drives (HDS723020BLA642) in a 9.7TB RAID-5 configuration. The 7K3000 spins its four platters at 7200RPM and buffers data with a 64MB on-board cache. The drive has a 6Gbps SATA interface although the Pegasus R4/R6 supports SAS drives as well. All of the Pegasus devices ship in RAID 5 however they do support RAID-0/1/5/50/6/10."
post #80 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Err... What I said was in response to the user that was wondering what drives to buy if the original drives went down, since it is best to use matched drives in RAIDs. Hence I mentioned, one could just pull it out to see what drives they were using, and then put it back of course.

You're right, I should have corrected my statement once I realized my misunderstanding of the context.
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