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Dissatisfied Final Cut Pro X customers receive refunds from Apple - Page 3

post #81 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Just get the required 10,000 hours in and even you (yes, YOU) could be a pro editor!

I don't have to. I have a couple of guys that are more than qualified.

Like they said, just visit the AVID, FCP, etc., forums and peruse through the thousands of issues, concerns, complaints, workarounds, etc. The only people that were truly happy, were to busy working. Still, if the current crop of professionally made movies, TV and videos are any indication of what some of these guys are producing with their beloved equipment, perhaps they should be looking at new software. The old stuff doesn't seem to help most of them.

In addition, does anybody remember the ton on naysayers trashing FCP a few months ago. Based on the rhetoric, it seemed that only a handful every used and less than that really liked it. Amazing how many have now come out of the woodwork.

Interesting that many are running 5+ year old Macs and PCs. Better yet, many are the same guys that dis Lion, the App Store, the iPad, hell even the iPhone.
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post #82 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

That's an oversimplification!

FCPX projects and events are a superset of iMovie projects and events. Apple owns all the iMovie code and thus can write FCPX equivalents to support iMovie content and still take advantage of the enhancements in FCPX (OCL, GCD, etc.)

FCP7 projects include a lot of 3rd-party effects and filters. This 3rd-party code will not run without change on the FCPX code-base. Even if Apple could "simulate" these 3rd-party additions, they would not perform up to par with the FCPX UX -- no real-time presentation without rendering, etc. Apple does not own this code, therefore it cannot upgrade the code to exploit FCPX.

Apparently, once the initial features of FCPX were solidified, the FCPX plugin SDK was made available to some developers.

There are a few 3rd-party plugins already rewritten for FCPX.

The FCPX plugin SDK is now generally available, so I expect many more developers will convert their plugins to FCPX.


You say: "It does, however, open and convert older iMovie projects, so in functionality, it is closer to an upgrade to iMovie than to FCP."

FCPX can do some things, now, that FCP7 will never be able to do without a total rewrite -- probably taking 2-3 years to deliver a robust and reliable replacement.

I suspect that within 18 months, FCPX will have enough features to satisfy most pro needs.

Your argument of incompatible plug-ins is not reason enough for me. If they had instead converted FCP 7 to FCP 8 and made it 64 bit with OpenCL and GCD, the plug-ins would have broken as well. That happens all the time with other applications from various vendors. So the 3rd party developers would have to rewrite their plug-ins anyway. At least when that was done we would still be able to work with our existing projects which are constantly under revision and only need minor updates. Having your new software be able open the previous file format should be job one when releasing the next version.

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post #83 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:29pm
FCP X is FU X. They did the same to quicktime. Once they added that X to it, it was a toilet bowl version of Quicktime Pro.

Apple is now a consumer electronics company. Anything they release with the word "PRO" attached to it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Sad, true.
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post #84 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

The FCPX petition was #8 on PetitionsOnline.com with over 600 signatures. I am betting there are a lot more iWeb and MobileMe Gallery users out there than there are high end professional video editors. I hope they will respond in force to Apple's decision to cut them off. Use the link in my signature line make yourselves heard.

That petition is worded terribly. It just sounds impertinent.
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post #85 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

Steve said that Apple interviews "customers" and listens to what they have to say.

My reply is off topic but I don't believe that for a minute. Otherwise the gap between a couple of Apple's desktop computers wouldn't exist.
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post #86 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by liney View Post

Permanently removing a product from production is the very definition of obsolete. There will be no upgrades, no new versions. It's dead - it has no future. It's obsolete.

Obsolete: No longer has any usefullness. Antiquated.

Discontinued: End-of-life (EOL): the product is in the end of its product lifetime and a vendor will no longer be marketing, selling, or promoting a particular product and may also be limiting or ending support for the product.

FCP7 is still going to be useful for the next few years.
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post #87 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBRSTREETG View Post

Its not about making smartphones. Its the integrated ecosystem of hardware and software that gives customers a good user experience when using Apple devices. You won't get that with just the iPhone alone.

++++++++
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post #88 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Professionals would gladly pay $1000 had it been really powerful 64 bit 7 updated rather than a totally different and totally incompatible product. It's about work flow not price for professionals and edit houses. They are not whiners or computer nerds they are companies with multiple Mac Pros and high end media servers and many staff with on going work dependent on being able to open and use existing projects. A single production project could easily be anywhere from half a million to multi- million dollars. You have to see this in context.

Why are you arguing with these idiots?
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post #89 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBRSTREETG View Post

Its not about making smartphones. Its the integrated ecosystem of hardware and software that gives customers a good user experience when using Apple devices. You won't get that with just the iPhone alone.

I'm making a point. If Apple chucked everything right now and transitioned dev tools to PC, they could do quite well by leveraging MacOS (if they licensed Lion to run on PCs), iOS and the iPhone (which of course would still include iTunes).

They could wipe out Microsoft and simplify their product line to the point of it just being silly.

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #90 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:49pm
I just got FCPX yesterday, and I love it already. It helps me move significantly faster!

Never liked FCP1-7. There has never been anything special about it. I believe the only reason why it's been a smash hit all these years is its price.
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post #91 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Now about the refunds: WHINERS. They'll come straight back once the first real update is pushed.

If you bought a brand new car and it was missing a spare tire, turn signals, and the passenger door didn't open, would your objections to this be WHINING? There are many FCP7 users who are literally unable to use FCPX because it does not have features they use EVERY DAY. And no, they can't just switch between FCP7 and FCPX to get those features as the two do not share the same project file formats. Objecting to being downgrade is not WHINING. It is 100% legitimate.
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post #92 of 168
6/28/11 at 1:58pm
FCP X is clearly not close to ready for pro studio use.

We bought a copy the morning it was released. Spent a week carefully going through everything. There are some very amazing tools that we really, really liked. But in the end, the missing workflow abilities, 3rd party hardware support, and collaboration tools are a deal killer. FCP X was DOA for us. We're sticking to FCP 7 for the time being with the plan to adopt FCP X if they fix it within 12 months. If that doesn't happen, we're already looking towards alternatives to replace FCP in our studio.

And yes.... we got our refund.
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post #93 of 168
6/28/11 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

There are many FCP7 users who are literally unable to use FCPX because it does not have features they use EVERY DAY.

So they can use Final Cut Pro 7.

Quote:
And no, they can't just switch between FCP7 and FCPX to get those features as the two do not share the same project file formats.

Never said they could. They can use Final Cut Pro 7.

Quote:
Objecting to being downgrade is not WHINING. It is 100% legitimate.

Except they weren't forced to buy it.
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #94 of 168
6/28/11 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I think FCPX is a fairly adequate application for professional work if you aren't already using FCS.

For example: A new TV commercial, first launch, it runs 30 sec. Then we re-edit it to be 15 seconds after the initial campaign. Then finally down to 10 or even 5 seconds. Another example is we have several takes and we mix and match scenes.

When you already have everything logged and captured in FCP you don't want to go back and reinvent the wheel to continue working with a project. You want to open the project and save it as a new name and make some modifications, FCPX does not work like that or even open up the original FCP 7 project file.

I think it would be a very simple matter to parse the FCP XML and point to all the clips (create events), and put them in an FCPX story line that approximates an FCP sequence... but there's more to it than that.

Here's a snippet of an FCP XML file:
Code:


</comments>
<file id="Dish Punt2">
<name>Dish Punt.mov</name>
<pathurl>file://localhost/Users/richard/Movies/Dish%20Punt.mov</pathurl>
<rate>
<timebase>30</timebase>
<ntsc>TRUE</ntsc>
</rate>
<duration>237</duration>
<media>
<video>
<duration>237</duration>
<samplecharacteristics>
<width>1280</width>
<height>720</height>
</samplecharacteristics>
</video>
<audio>
<samplecharacteristics>
<samplerate>44100</samplerate>
<depth>32</depth>
</samplecharacteristics>
<channelcount>2</channelcount>
</audio>
</media>
</file>
<filter>
<enabled>TRUE</enabled>
<start>-1</start>
<end>-1</end>
<effect>
<name>Eight-Point Garbage Matte</name>
<effectid>Eight-Point Garbage Matte</effectid>
<effectcategory>Matte</effectcategory>




The first highlighted item is the clip file location -- no problem!

The second highlighted item is a 3rd-party filter in FCP that does not exist (yet) in FCPX -- big problem!

The "filter" is used to create a composite of 5 video clips.

This FCP sequence also uses several other common 3rd-party generators such.as Boris Title 3D.

Since this 3rd-party code is not yet available in FCPX -- all that can be done is ignore it or insert marker in FCPX as to what's missing.

That might be good enough!

But, I'd be willing to bet that within 6 months, most of the popular FCP plugins will have FCPX equivalents.

So, I suspect that you will be able to do a creditable job of opening an FCP sequence in FCPX.

Finally, there is an ability to create folders within FCPX -- though it isn't defined what they are used for. I suspect that you will be able to organize all your FCP clients/projects/sequences/media with a similar construct in FCPX.
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– Alan Kay –
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post #95 of 168
6/28/11 at 2:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I hate to be the one to tell you, but Apple could do quite well if they discontinued every one of their computing and software products except the iPhone. It's worth that much to them now.

Well, la-de-da! I don't fucking care about Apple and never have!

This isn't about the cult of Apple Inc. This is about people trying to use their computers to DO THEIR WORK! Apple used to be about THAT.

Go back to Bloomberg or some bubble-watching shithole pyramid scheme inventment forum.
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post #96 of 168
6/28/11 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwell View Post

Why are you arguing with these idiots?

Ok I give up.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #97 of 168
6/28/11 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morky View Post

I don't think it was wrong for Apple to reboot Final Cut. The big problem I see is simply the abrupt EOL of their legacy FCS3 product, relied upon by an entire industry that has very specific needs. While FCPX might soon me a much better product than FCS3 in terms of creative workflow, there are critical needs that video and film producers have, such as outputting to a broadcast monitor that are simply unsupported at this point.

What Apple should do is offer a free FCS3 license with a purchase of FCPX. It will get the industry playing with the new product and allow them to buy seats to continue working on current projects, and as well as give them the ability to keep working in the status quo environment while FCPX matures. Secondly, Apple should publicly commit to support FCP7 on Mac OS X through version 10.8 (Lion is 10.7 - for all intents and purposes, the current version of the Mac OS). This would remove a lot of the anxiety that exists, as I'm sure Apple will be working at high speed to get the missing features and 3rd party support into FCPX.

Those are some pretty creative (and logical) ideas!
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
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post #98 of 168
6/28/11 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by strobe View Post

Well, la-de-da! I don't fucking care about Apple and never have!

This isn't about the cult of Apple Inc. This is about people trying to use their computers to DO THEIR WORK! Apple used to be about THAT.

Go back to Bloomberg or some bubble-watching shithole pyramid scheme inventment forum.

So wouldn't it make sense to stop using Apple products if they don't do what you want instead of randomly insulting people?
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
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post #99 of 168
6/28/11 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

So wouldn't it make sense to stop using Apple products if they don't do what you want instead of randomly insulting people?

Mmmm... The people we a discussing, high end production studios, actually want to continue, they just want to know they can. Stop thinking in terms of a single user. No one here saying X is prosumer at the moment is against it per se as far as I can see. It is the sudden brick wall they just hit in the immediate future of 7 that is scary when you have projects planned over the next few years and a small fortune invested in equipment and man power.

All Apple have to do is commit to continued support for 7, keep selling it and stand behind it during OS and hardware changes. Hopefully X will add all the missing features and nothing will be lost.

What would be sad is if there were a mass exodus of high end users from FCPro.

I think it is worth pointing out this isn't a Luddite situation. These are companies and people who have been at the bleeding edge of technology for decades.
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #100 of 168
6/28/11 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

It is the sudden brick wall they just hit in the immediate future of 7 that is scary when you have projects planned over the next few years and a small fortune invested in equipment and man power.

All Apple have to do is commit to continued support for 7

That would be great, but I think Apple has already sunk that ship. Why? Bet you big dollars that Lion will break the living shit of of FCP 7. If the new Mac Pros that come with Lion installed can't run Snow Leopard (and this is likely) then people are doubly screwed.
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post #101 of 168
6/28/11 at 2:57pm
Does anyone here have FCP 7 running on Lion beta?

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post #102 of 168
6/28/11 at 2:59pm
Looks like Final Cut Pro X = OS X 1.0.

Better wait until Final Cut Pro X 3.0
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post #103 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Having your new software be able open the previous file format should be job one when releasing the next version.

Couple of questions:

1) If you could open your old formats, but couldn't process them would that be of any use?

2) If you could open your old formats and process them as FC7/FCS wouldn't that mean that FCP7 was just old bloat tacked on to FCPX and it would bring FCPX down to the performance level and operational Idiosyncrasies of FCP7. *

* FCP7 is Carbon-based and cannot take advantage of most of the hardware and OS improvements within the last 5 years. There simply is no way to program some of these things in Carbon.

3) Wouldn't it be better to release a new base platform (FCPX) unencumbered with the current FCP limitations?

4) Then write a standalone migration tool to port FCP7 projects to FCPX. There would be a lot of 3rd-party plugins missing at first, but this should diminish rapidly -- I suspect there will be a bit of a race by developers to be the first to port their plugins to FCPX.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
Reply
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #104 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:12pm
Two words: people recognition.
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post #105 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by strobe View Post

Well, la-de-da! I don't fucking care about Apple and never have!

This isn't about the cult of Apple Inc. This is about people trying to use their computers to DO THEIR WORK! Apple used to be about THAT.

Go back to Bloomberg or some bubble-watching shithole pyramid scheme inventment forum.

Why in the world are you wasting your (and our) time, then?

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #106 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

That would be great, but I think Apple has already sunk that ship. Why? Bet you big dollars that Lion will break the living shit of of FCP 7. If the new Mac Pros that come with Lion installed can't run Snow Leopard (and this is likely) then people are doubly screwed.

That would be scary for sure ... I'm hoping Lion will not break it. I will have to check that out.
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
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post #107 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Couple of questions:

1) If you could open your old formats, but couldn't process them would that be of any use?

2) If you could open your old formats and process them as FC7/FCS wouldn't that mean that FCP7 was just old bloat tacked on to FCPX and it would bring FCPX down to the performance level and operational Idiosyncrasies of FCP7. *

* FCP7 is Carbon-based and cannot take advantage of most of the hardware and OS improvements within the last 5 years. There simply is no way to program some of these things in Carbon.

3) Wouldn't it be better to release a new base platform (FCPX) unencumbered with the current FCP limitations?

4) Then write a standalone migration tool to port FCP7 projects to FCPX. There would be a lot of 3rd-party plugins missing at first, but this should diminish rapidly -- I suspect there will be a bit of a race by developers to be the first to port their plugins to FCPX.

You know how when you open an old Photoshop document with text layers, you get a message that they need to be updated or when you open an old Illustrator file it saves it as [Converted], that is all it needs to do. It has nothing to do with being encumbered by old code because it is converting it. Think of it more as appearance based decision making. You have some timelines with video and synced audio tracks and some transitions, stills, clips etc. All NLE apps use the same basic type of layout. I need to preserve as much as of that possible during the conversion.

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post #108 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

Bet you big dollars that Lion will break the living shit of of FCP 7.

Where's my money? It doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Does anyone here have FCP 7 running on Lion beta?

I do. Runs perfectly fine.
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
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post #109 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I agree that Apple should make FCS available again!

I think Apple should keep the FCPX branding and keep FCE EOLd.


I've posted on other threads that I think that FCPX is an amazing product as far as it goes -- and likely will be the platform to build upon for Appe's Pro apps.

<bunch of stuff deleted here>

Finally, Apple could have handled it better -- though we all enjoy seeing the "Big Guy" get his comeuppance... if just a little bit.

I agree with all your points up to the last one, and thanks for all your test-drive reports.

I'm not enjoying seeing Apple BECOME the "Big Guy" that now DESERVES a comeuppance. That's the change for the worse that has happened.

My constant amazed pleasure in using the old Final Cut, with its multiple video and audio tracks doing exactly what I want them to do, not what some magnetic timeline thinks I want it to do, will continue. But the relationship with the company that wants me to quit using that old but great architecture has been poisoned. Even their hardware no longer has the same aura it used to have for me.

There must be thousands of editors with huge investments in the Final Cut ecosystem that feel worse about it than I do. All they had to do was leave the old to coexist with the new for awhile, to support the industry until X is ready for real editing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

So they can use Final Cut Pro 7.

Never said they could. They can use Final Cut Pro 7.

Except they weren't forced to buy it.

"Let them eat cake."

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Mmmm... The people we a discussing, high end production studios, actually want to continue, they just want to know they can. Stop thinking in terms of a single user. No one here saying X is prosumer at the moment is against it per se as far as I can see. It is the sudden brick wall they just hit in the immediate future of 7 that is scary when you have projects planned over the next few years and a small fortune invested in equipment and man power.

All Apple have to do is commit to continued support for 7, keep selling it and stand behind it during OS and hardware changes. Hopefully X will add all the missing features and nothing will be lost.

What would be sad is if there were a mass exodus of high end users from FCPro.

I think it is worth pointing out this isn't a Luddite situation. These are companies and people who have been at the bleeding edge of technology for decades.

Well said.
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post #110 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Where's my money? It doesn't.

I do. Runs perfectly fine.

Kona drivers? Plug-ins?
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post #111 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

When did a refund for being less than satisfied with a product become "phenomenal customer service" rather than just "doing business"

Pretty much with every other software vendor. Have you ever gotten a refund from Adobe, or Quark, how about Microsoft or even Apple a few years ago for the new iMovie?

Didn't think so.
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post #112 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

"Let them eat cake."

This makes no sense at all.

If they're coming from Final Cut Pro 7, then they still have Final Cut Pro 7 and can use that.

if the first version of Final Cut they're using is Final Cut X, then they have no metric against which to compare this software, and therefore shouldn't really be complaining about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

Kona drivers? Plug-ins?

No idea about Kona, sorry. What plug-ins I do have run fine, however.
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post #113 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:53pm
I have limited experience with Final Cut Pro. That being said, when iMovie 08 was first rolled out, I absolutely hated it. It didn't have anywhere near the capability of the previous version before it was completely reworked. I continued using the previous version of iMovie for quite some time.

Then, as updates came along, and it caught up with the tools that the previous version had, I grew to like it and now could not see myself going back to the old version.

I feel this is EXACTLY what is happening here. This new version doesn't have everything that the old one does, and the users are feeling a little alienated, just as I was with iMovie 08. I have a feeling that once these missing features are added in with updates, everyone will begin to get to know the new interface a bit better and be happy with it.

If not, no one is forcing them to delete the previous version of Final Cut that they've been using for awhile now.
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post #114 of 168
6/28/11 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

If you bought a brand new car and it was missing a spare tire, turn signals, and the passenger door didn't open, would your objections to this be WHINING? There are many FCP7 users who are literally unable to use FCPX because it does not have features they use EVERY DAY. And no, they can't just switch between FCP7 and FCPX to get those features as the two do not share the same project file formats. Objecting to being downgrade is not WHINING. It is 100% legitimate.

"And no, they can't just switch between FCP7 and FCPX to get those features as the two do not share the same project file formats."

This is not quite true.

1) There are no sequences in FCPX -- A FCPX project is analogous to a sequence.

2) Instead of bins, FCPX organizes media into events.

3) It is very easy do duplicate a FCPX project if you want to Freeze it at a point in time


Understanding the above differences (and in practice, it's pretty easy) you can:

1) open an FCP7 project locate your media files.

2) open FCPX and import those media files as an event -- you don't need to copy them, FCPX can point to them

3) Open the desired FCP7 sequence and take a Screen snapshot of the timeline -- this is necessary because you can't have FCP7 and FCPX open n the same machine at the same time -- 2 machines, no problem (I may write a feature request to allow FCPX and FCP7 to be open at the same time.

4) Using FCPX, quickly assemble a storyline approximating the FCP7 timeline -- it's different, but with a little practice it is a lot easier and much faster,


At this point, if FCPX contains the plugins and features you need -- you will likely not touch this again in FCP7.

There are just so any things that you can "easily" do in FCPX that you can't do in FCP7, such as:

-- quickly move things around without ever getting out of sync (and never worrying about it)
-- change the lighting/color of the video of a morning shot to match an evening shot or vice versa
-- scrubbing through clips with sound on so you can determine the exact spot to edit
-- audition several alternate sound and video for parts of your story -- so the client can select what he likes (reversable decisions)
-- you do most editing without ever rendering
-- you only render when you are ready to export the project.

I've only had a few hours of playtime and about 4 hours of tutorials with FCPX... It's imressive for what it is, now -- and for what it can be in the future.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #115 of 168
6/28/11 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Professionals would gladly pay $1000 had it been really powerful 64 bit 7 updated rather than a totally different and totally incompatible product. It's about work flow not price for professionals and edit houses. They are not whiners or computer nerds they are companies with multiple Mac Pros and high end media servers and many staff with on going work dependent on being able to open and use existing projects. A single production project could easily be anywhere from half a million to multi- million dollars. You have to see this in context.

The blurring of the line between amateurs, "pro-sumers" and professional editing creatives is getting more fuzzy. This FCP-X just proves that Apple is now just a consumer brand and does not seem to care or understand what they had nor do they get that some of us make their living off their software. This release is an outrage! I remember when Nikon sold only high-end cameras for professional photogs. They were built like tanks and could take a beating. Then, they were forced to get into the amateur market and their cameras got kinda crappy. Too much time and money spent on low-end consumer models. They lost a huge share of the pro market to Canon. Is this the fate of FCP, lost their mojo catering to mass market wanna-bes? I hope not.
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post #116 of 168
6/28/11 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

In a year or two, once Apple continuously rolls out added features, all the critics will be silent, and they will tout FCP as the best editing software on the planet. Every critic says its a fantastic foundation, but lacks features they need. Well, that's how Apple rolls. They are utterly unafraid to destroy the status quo if they believe in their vision for the future.

It will get better. Relax. In the meantime, nobody is ripping FCP7 out of your hands.

Yea, that's my "advanced amateur" take on it as well. Luckily, the more advanced features aren't so applicable to me, but I can sympathize. Where FCPX advances, it's a quantum leap.

Where it's lacking, it's almost unbelievable that they shipped 1.0 like this! I don't doubt that they will improve over the coming months and that it will eventually be getting 4 and 5 star ratings. But I'll never understand how they thought they could ship something missing so many features.

Having said that, I'm glad that 1) FCP 7 can co-exist happily 2) Refunds are being given in some cases and 3) They seem to be listening to feedback. Perhaps Apple should have marketed it as a big community project instead!

"We're working on the next generation of non-linear editing applications. We'll be shipping version 1.0 this June and we need your help. Download it only on the Mac App Store, give us your feedback, and be part of the revolution." SOMETHING like that.

Pros might jump at the chance to download something with such a revolutionary UI and be contribute towards its polishing and improvement. Instead, Apple gave the usual silent treatment leading up to launch, leading to disappointed customers.
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post #117 of 168
6/28/11 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

"And no, they can't just switch between FCP7 and FCPX to get those features as the two do not share the same project file formats."

This is not quite true.

1) There are no sequences in FCPX -- A FCPX project is analogous to a sequence.

2) Instead of bins, FCPX organizes media into events.

3) It is very easy do duplicate a FCPX project if you want to Freeze it at a point in time


Understanding the above differences (and in practice, it's pretty easy) you can:

1) open an FCP7 project locate your media files.

2) open FCPX and import those media files as an event -- you don't need to copy them, FCPX can point to them

3) Open the desired FCP7 sequence and take a Screen snapshot of the timeline -- this is necessary because you can't have FCP7 and FCPX open n the same machine at the same time -- 2 machines, no problem (I may write a feature request to allow FCPX and FCP7 to be open at the same time.

4) Using FCPX, quickly assemble a storyline approximating the FCP7 timeline -- it's different, but with a little practice it is a lot easier and much faster,


At this point, if FCPX contains the plugins and features you need -- you will likely not touch this again in FCP7.

There are just so any things that you can "easily" do in FCPX that you can't do in FCP7, such as:

-- quickly move things around without ever getting out of sync (and never worrying about it)
-- change the lighting/color of the video of a morning shot to match an evening shot or vice versa
-- scrubbing through clips with sound on so you can determine the exact spot to edit
-- audition several alternate sound and video for parts of your story -- so the client can select what he likes (reversable decisions)
-- you do most editing without ever rendering
-- you only render when you are ready to export the project.

I've only had a few hours of playtime and about 4 hours of tutorials with FCPX... It's imressive for what it is, now -- and for what it can be in the future.

Everything you talk about, I've been able to do on my Avid for 10 years. This is nothing new. Again, it might be a fine release for amateur or serious consumer video shooters who throw up You Tube videos for fun, but not for working pros. It is like editing with mittens on.
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post #118 of 168
6/28/11 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

When did a refund for being less than satisfied with a product become "phenomenal customer service" rather than just "doing business"

I've never seen ANY company refund a 300$ software.
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post #119 of 168
6/28/11 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Mmmm... The people we a discussing, high end production studios, actually want to continue, they just want to know they can. Stop thinking in terms of a single user. No one here saying X is prosumer at the moment is against it per se as far as I can see. It is the sudden brick wall they just hit in the immediate future of 7 that is scary when you have projects planned over the next few years and a small fortune invested in equipment and man power.

All Apple have to do is commit to continued support for 7, keep selling it and stand behind it during OS and hardware changes. Hopefully X will add all the missing features and nothing will be lost.

What would be sad is if there were a mass exodus of high end users from FCPro.

I think it is worth pointing out this isn't a Luddite situation. These are companies and people who have been at the bleeding edge of technology for decades.

I agree with what you say -- especially about the part of supporting existing users.


But, i must point out that those pioneers you describe as "at the bleeding edge of technology for decades" -- are now using decades old technology!


Realistically, if you want to take advantage of the latest post technology in the next few years -- you'll need to move to FCPX or move to another vendor's products. I believe there is zero chance that Apple will upgrade FCP7/FCS.

One problem facing many of those entrenched with FCP7 is that they will face the same pressure that caused them to move to FCP initially -- the old way was to difficult and too expensive -- and FCP is good enough!

The guys using FCP are cleaning our clock!

Someday soon, FCPX and/or a competitive product will be easier, faster and provide better workflow and deliverables than you get from FCP7/FCS.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
Reply
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
Reply
post #120 of 168
6/28/11 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

It seems to me that Apple has not made a mistake, but taken a conscious business decision. They see that the market for prosumer product is much greater than that for high end pros. There are already good options for them such as Avid. Instead of putting resources into a product for a relatively few elite users, they'd rather create the best product for all the rest.

It sucks for the pros. I feel your pain (sincerely).

You lump Avid as a pro-sumer option? Or, did I read that wrong? I have cut tons of award-winning commercials on my Avid systems that no pro-sumer could afford at $75,000 per seat. Avid Media Composer IS professional grade, not pro-sumer. Like Apple, Avid had to bring out a low-end version for marketing reasons, but other than mucking up the landscape, it was not pro-grade. FCP v7 was as close to Avid as it comes. Avid is still a faster system for basic editing which is 90% of what I do. All the bells and whistles, the "Jack-of-all-Trades" add-ons only slow everything down in a professional studio setting. While all the graphics and color grading software is nice, I tend to divide that work among experts in their field, i.e., a audio engineer to mix, a colorist to do grading and a Flame artist or After Effects specialist for graphics and special effects.
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