Supply of Apple's white MacBook severely constrained ahead of Lion debut - Page 3

Except millions of people don't want a used product.

I agree that the white MacBook should have been EOL'd in fall 2008 when the MacBook Collector's Edition came out. But current arguments for its death have to have at least some sense of reality about them.

I also live in Europe and do the same. What's the problem? It's a much better deal than renting DVDs.


Your argument presumes that all or nearly all MacBook Air sales are cannibalizing MacBook sales rather than additional Mac sales to people who would otherwise not have bought a MacBook. I have seen no evidence to support such a presumption. Obviously, some MacBook Air sales cannibalize MacBook sales and some do not. I don't know whether that's 20%/80%, 50%/50%,
or 80%/20%. Even if the cannibalization rate were 80% (which seems extremely unlikely), that would mean that MacBook sales are 25% of MacBook Air sales, which would be more than a million MacBooks per year. If Apple were to discontinue the MacBook, some of those million plus per year buyers would buy a MacBook Air or MacBook Pro, but some would not. Apple would lose at least a quarter million sales per year (best case scenario) but probably about a million sales per year (more likely scenario) and perhaps a few million per year (worst case scenario).

Why would Apple want to reduce Mac sales by very roughly about a million per year?

There was an attempt to kill it before.

The white plastic one went away for a stripped aluminum chassis model which then became the 13" pro model at a marginal price bump, bringing the plastic model back for the price point.

Steve announced the design concept of the Air's was the direction of the future for laptops across the board. With a Sandy Bridge Air, where is there place for a MacBook? The C2D is about to become history.

The Mini is about to go Sandy Bridge, and it currently shares its logic board with the MacBook. They need the Mini or something like it to fill the demand for a headless model below the Pro tower at a lower price point and which doesn't cannibalize sales from the iMac. There is no reason to think that the Mini's upcoming board won't be shared with the Air or the Pro. The white MacBook is squeezed from top bottom and sides.

If Apple cut the XServe which had no squeezing from any side, they sure are capable of cutting the white MacBook.

It had no squeezing because it had no sales, the macbook does - lots.

Like it or not many Mac Books are sold because of the plastic enclosure.

Yep he said that and then a few months later we get the pathetic MBP update. It would e a nice direction to go in if Apple would actually follow through but that hasn't happened yet. Further making all computers more AIR like does not imply that MacBook is going away.

As to C2D Apple has more choices than ever for a decent Mac Book processor upgrade. In fact processors have little to do with selling laptops anymore, as long as the processor isn't a turkey they can stick just about anything in a Mac Book.

Where did that idea come from? Last I knew the logic boards where significantly different. Now sharing such boards wouldnt be a bad idea, I just haven't seen any evidence of such.

Only a very ignorant management team would worry about cannibalization of their own product line. It is always far better to take sales from yourself than to let somebody else take those sales.

Actually there are lots of reasons but number one is that you seem to be misinformed.

As for the ignorance about being squeezed Mac Book, before the new AIRs, was one of Apples best selling computers.

XServe was cut due to the lack of sales. Mac Book is a very good seller, big difference.

Apple is certainly capable of cutting the Mac Book but nothing in this post is a rational arguement for doing so.

So iPad is a creative tool?

One normally sees a device as a single function element. An iPad is by definition a computer because one can simply change it's functionality simply be loading a new program. It really doesn't matter if the machine is running an app for music or spreadsheets, the fact that you load those programs from secondary store and the execute them at will makes it a computer.

The fact that iPad seems to be running an operating system that you don't like has nothing to do with the reality that the platform is a computer.

I would go so far as to say you are making mountains out of mole hills. For many an iPad would be an ideal computer, mainly because they realize their needs and the utility of iPad. You can try to slag the iPad by calling it a device but many users simply call it their iPad. A device if you will that serves their COMPUTING needs.

I have a simple solution to this problem.

Redefine it.

Computer: Electronic device that is capable of connecting to the Internet.

Done. Entire iPad argument fixed.

This definition leaves out microwaves, ovens, speaker systems, powered NAS', cars (...except for some? I don't know much about cars...), and everything else with low to high electronic componentry.

If the MacBook will be updated, it will almost certainly get a Sandy Bridge processor, but a much less expensive Sandy Bridge processor than those which go into either model of the MacBook Air.

Because the 13" MacBook Pro kept the low resolution 1280x800 screen, there is no way an updated MacBook will get in 2011 the gorgeous high resolution 1440x900 screen that the 13" MacBook Air has. That is another differentiation between the MacBook and the 13" MacBook Air that will continue for at least another year (assuming the MacBook continues).

I'll grant you that it would make sense for an updated MacBook to drop the optical brick, which would bring it nearer to the MacBook Air in terms of weight (and possibly thickness). It would also allow a price drop from $999 to $899.

I would expect an updated MacBook to keep the HD rather go to SSD on a stick, again to keep costs down.

In short, I think there is ample differentiation between the MacBook and the MacBook Air and that neither model cannibalizes the other to anywhere close to 100%. Both are great sellers, so I don't think it makes sense to discontinue either one.

MacBook Pro is much faster using a different architecture altogether, ThunderBolt, SD Card, more RAM, etc. MacBook Pro is the best selling Mac. No sense in making a point without correct information to back it up.

I think you're being way too specific. There's nothing that says an SDK has to run on the platform the development is being done for.

What's much more important is whether many computer users can use an iPad for what they do, and that is true. They can. Most computer users use their machines for the Internet, e-mail, IM, some games, some homework, reading, etc. All of this is doable from an iPad. I have apps that let me use it with PhotoShop. I can do video editing, 3D design work, drawing to spec, etc.

It's a work computer as well as an entertainment center. It's definitely a computer. And with all the complaints about it not being one until it can stand alone, well, that complaint will be gone soon as well. You're just being picky because you don't like the idea.

I remember the same kind of complaints when the Altair came out. But it didn't matter, even though the Altair did almost nothing at all. It was still a computer, and so is the iPad, and all other iOs devices for that matter.

If they decide to continue to call it that, fine. But you know, people have been call g the low end MBP an MB, and not an MBP, so it could be the other way around as well.

But if it looks like an MBP, and works like an MBP, then it is an MBP.

It's true that they are big enough. But Apple is also about not confusing people with too many choices.

If the Air becomes popular enough, and the price is there, then the MB is toast. It's been made very clear to everyone by Apple, and Jobs in particular, that the Air is the future of Apple laptops.

While I think that now is a good time to discontinue the MB, I'm also saying that Apple might not agree with the timing. But I would think that it may have, at most, one more year left.

I still have my three. But they were really just good for seat of the pants calculations.

You're talking about a parent saying that about any Mac laptop, so it doesn't count. We're talking about an Air as opposed to a MB, or a MBP. And from the numbers we're reading about, a very large portion of students starting college are now buying Apple laptops. The last I read the numbers, it was something like a third of students were opting for an Apple product. And for the top colleges, it's over 50%.

We really have to see what a new Air will be. I've noticed that, finally, after having remained pretty much stable for over a year, SSD prices have begun to come down. So a bigger SSd, would take care of much of the storage problem over the older Airs.

Then, it comes down to screen size and processor power. Screen size is a toss-up. Lots of people who want the portability and weight difference opt for the 11" screen, the new processors should be more than powerful enough.

The only real differences that may make a difference for many people would be the Cd, and FireWire. Other than that, I think that most buyers of the old MB would go for the Air, as it costs the same, if you opt for the smaller model.

And we really have no idea what Apple will be doing to these things.

I have to disagree. The MacBook Pro is too expensive and the MacBook Air has no super drive, so Apple will probably continue producing the MacBook.

The MacBook currently is a stopgap product for Apple. They really want people to either buy iPads, Airs, or Pros. The MacBook will be killed off soon but the time might not be now. Maybe if the iPad gains even more desktop functionality next year with iOS 6 there may be no need for most to get an entry level laptop, like the MacBook.

Last time I looked on Apples web site the MacBook was out selling the AIR. Like it or not MacBook has been a very good seller for Apple.


A bigger SSD would go a long way to attracking more of the MacBook crowd. However there is a lot more about the MacBook that appeals to many.

don't forget battery performance.
Processor power and satisfaction depends a lot on the individual. Many have tried out the AIRs and rejected them based on processor performance. Sure the new chips will be better but we are talking anything close to MacBook Pro performance. At least not for users with software needs that demand lots of threads.

That isn't the current situation. Will the new AIRs change that? Hard to say especially if Mac Book gets updated at the same time. My point is the selection process isn't as clear as you would like it to be. People see value in different ways and some just like plastic.

Yep that is the big issue. One safe guess is TB ports all around. More custome parts to further shrink the PC board is another. A price reduction on the Mac Book is also possible. In the end two weeks of torture is assured.

But the more expensive Pro outsells the MacBook...

We'll see what happens but I don't think the white MacBook is as important to Apple's Mac business as it was a few years ago.

I hope that Apple doesn't discontinue the MacBook because I like the design and I honestly don't want an aluminum laptop. I know that the 11.6 inch MBA is the same price, but sometimes I burn CDs and I don't want to buy an external CD/DVD drive. The other reason I hope it isn't discontinued is because I don't want to earn more money for a MBP.

Exactly! AIR is a fantastic success it is not however out selling many of Apples products.

I don't know about that. You have a products that sell well with little effort on Apples part. Mac Book makes gold for Apple with little outlay in silver.

I understand that, and that's one reason why I own a MacBook. I've looked into replacing it with an Air but I like having a CD drive with me all the time and my laptop isn't so big and heavy where I feel like the 1 or 2 pounds saved by getting an Air are worth it.

But knowing Apple I wouldn't be surprised if they did axe it. Steve said the Air is the future of Apple laptops and he has also said he wants Apple product to be made of high end materials such as metal and glass.

If the MacBook does continue on for a little while longer I would hope that they add the black model back into the lineup to mirror Apple's iOS devices.

Some people look at me strangely when I try to tell them some prefer plastic.

I don't remember him saying anything about high end materials. He does throw out a bunch of comments designed to appeal to environmental nuts.

That being said there are a lot of engineering plastics they could use to make a far stronger Mac Book. They don't because they can't completely abandon the low end. In fact I expect Apple to become more aggressive with respect to the low end. Mac Book should get cheaper in the future, mainly due to much higher integration.

Well that I'm not sure about. Finding fade resistant blacks plastics isn't easy. I suspect Apple will take the easy way out and keep the enclosure the same with new internals. FireWire may die!!

I forgot to mention that I'm blind, I don't need the backlet keyboard on the MBP, and I don't need a super thin laptop like the MBA, so the MB is alright for me.

I'm too lazy to try and find a quote, but I remember him mentioning something about shifting Apple to high end materials during either his aluminum iMac keynote or his aluminum MacBook (non-Pro) keynote.

Right now plastic just doesn't fit with the lineup. There are no Apple computers or devices (not even iPods) made of plastic anymore. I agree Apple needs something other than the iPad and Air on the low end, but maybe it should be a completely reimagined product?

I love my black MacBook still looks good today! If they keep plastic around I'd love to see a black model, then I can match my iPad, iPhone and MacBook :P

That's great to hear, it's nice that Apple has something for everyone, it's just magical

As I'm sure you know, Firewire died in the MacBook a while back. There was an uproar when Apple removed Firewire from the aluminum MacBook so they put it back and renamed the 13" computer MacBook Pro. I doubt we'll see abandonment of Firewire at the higher end for at least a couple more years.

They removed and deprecated FW400 from all products. MBPs still have FW800. MBs never had FW800.

Really, this makes about as much sense as saying Chevy should drop the Corvette because it doesn't fit in with the rest of the lineup. There is nothing wrong with plastic especially when confined to one model. Besides there are positive aspects to the plastic case that people really like. I mentioned the Corvette because some like to think of it as a plastic car.

The fundamental problem is this Apple needs a capable sub $1000 laptop. AIR isn't it at the moment as it is too little (as in capability) for some users. Actually they need something that can come in well under $900.

I just spent sometime on AMDs web sight looking at all of the Fusion based laptops out there. Many can be had for well under $800. These are the new A4 and A6 based machines too. so Apple should be able to do a nice machine for $800 to $850. The big trick is to deliver only what is absolutely needed in a laptop.


Does any one care if they match. Let's be honest your cell spends most of it's time in your pants, no one cares what color it is. I'd actually would like to see a transparent model myself.

As to being reimagined, they could do that. Honestly though I don't think it is required. It's Apples base machine, keep the guts modern and it will sell!

Uh, I can tell by your screen name that you would say that. Doesn't make it true though. I'm not saying it will happen now, just that it could.

Apple discontinued the iPod Mini, which was a very well selling product, and came out with the Nano. Then they changed the Nano completely.

You can't predict what Apple will do because a product is popular. It's very possible that a new Air will blow away the Macbook, and will increase sales as the Nano did.

Just because the MB is popular doesn't mean that a product can't replace it. Apple has been pushing over-the -air everything. Look at what happened to Blu-Ray, despite that many people want it.

And then, with the original iMac, they removed the floppy for the CD. It was thought that would be a, uh, flop. But it wasn't.

And I'm not saying that Apple WILL do this this year, only that it looks to be a good time with the Mac App Store, and Lion coming in download only. They are obviously pushing to get rid of optical.

It's going to happen at some point, it could be now.

Apple is obviously moving to metal and glass, and away from plastic. It's been happening for years, and not just because of environmental "nuts". What "engineering" plastics would be better than polycarbonate? I can't think of any that would be better suitable. Poly IS an engineering plastic.


It's the other way around. Black is the standard for fade resistant plastic. Most all outdoor plastics are black. White has little UV resistance, but black does.

Fiberglass.


I'd love to see an Apple notebook for $899. but it may simply not be their thing. We've thought, several times, that THIS IS IT! We're going to see a cheaper notebook, but it never materialized.

I don't think Apple will come out with a simplified machine. People already think the Airs are too simple. But business people love them.


YES! People do care about the color. Look at all the fuss about the white iPhone. It's supposed to have sold millions already, esp. in Asia, where they love white products.

And many phones come in more than one color. And when they don't, people buy colorful cases for them. They even buy skins for notebooks and tablets.

People don't care about the color when it's in their pocket, but they do care when it's in their hand.

The Corvette is a "halo" car for Chevy so I'd liken it to the Air not the MB. The MB is more like a Malibu. Basic transportation.

I agree Apple needs capable products on the low end, but in their minds they might feel like the iPad, Air and Pro are enough to cover the bottom.

It's good for the whole "halo" effect to have a black and white MacBook to sit side by side the black and white iOS devices. Here's an example: A guy has a black iPhone and he bought his gf a white iPhone. They want to have matching iPads. He wants a black one she wants a white one. They go to the Apple store to buy the iPads then they see that Apple sells a black and white MacBook. They figure they could do more with the MacBook and still have the colors they want...

That's where the value in having both black and white MacBooks nowadays after Apple made a splash by having black and white iPhones and iPads.

If Apple keeps the Macbook around I'd like to see some aluminum on it somewhere. Maybe a metal band like the iPhone 4 (kinda like the 1G Mac Mini), but plastic on the top and bottom. That would look cool. Maybe add an 11.6" model as well to sell for $799 or so.

But in the end we'll see what Apple does. Like I've sad above I wouldn't be surprised if they axe it.

Exactly! Great post!

Actually fiberglass reinforced plastic.

True but we have chips today that we have not had before. This to me is the key, integrate to reduce overall chip count. Do away with FireWire and skip TB for now.

Simple? I wouldn't go that far. Pushing technology might be a better description.

Well yeah that is Asia.

Exactly! People do whatever they want to the thing after they get it. Apple has rack of cases as do the AT&T stores. For the most part the cases do nothing but change the appearance of the phone.

I hope you realize you are more or less validating my point. The first thing people do with an "I" device is put a case on it.

Apple have three laptop models, some of which come in different sizes:
- MacBook: entry-level, lowest price, good value
- MacBook Air: thin, light-weight, sexy
- MacBook Pro: maximum performance

I don't see anything confusing about this lineup. Even if each of the three were to come in an overlapping range of five different screen sizes, I don't think it would be confusing. Each model perfectly pursues a clear goal (with the exception that the MacBook is still burdened by the optical brick).


I disagree and I think you misinterpreted Steve's remarks. I think Steve meant that the MacBook Air indicates the general trend we'll see:
- better integration
- consolidation of ports
- high-end materials
- improvements in weight and thinness

I don't for a second believe that Steve implied a convergence of the entry-level, light-and-thin, and high performance lines represented by the MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro, respectively.


As long as it's possible for a MacBook to be sold at a substantially lower price than a MacBook Air with the same screen size, then I expect Apple to continue the MacBook. As long as HD is cheaper per GB than SSD, I think there will be a safe place for the MacBook in Apple's lineup.

If I were Apple, for the next few years the MacBook would be HD-only, the MacBook Air would be SSD-only, and the MacBook Pro would include both HD and SSD (like the iMac). Eventually, SSD will become cheaper per GB than HD, at which point my crystal ball goes cloudy.



I agree. Apple are racing to achieve maximum market penetration of Thunderbolt. Apple don't want Thunderbolt to "fail" the way Firewire did. There is a perception that Thunderbolt is a high-end interface and that the low-end will continue to be served by USB. Apple must counter that perception.


I don't know how you went, in 27 hours, from suggesting that Thunderbolt is a "safe bet" to suggesting "skip it." The only way I can imagine Apple skipping Thunderbolt on a new MacBook would be to skip external video altogether and I'm not expecting that. Not including Thunderbolt on the next MacBook would send the wrong signal to peripheral manufacturers contemplating the Thunderbolt market.

I think Apple need to get the price of the MacBook down to $899 while at the same time moving up to 4GB of RAM and, in my opinion, the best way to achieve that is to drop the internal optical brick.

Why not? Afraid you'll get cooties?

Firewire didn't really fail, it served its purpose. It was never going to replace USB and nor will Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt needs market penetration like ExpressCard needed it i.e it doesn't.

Apple will support USB 3 when Intel feel like supporting it (2012) and then Mac users get two things: high speed peripheral ports alongside external PCIe ports to support things USB 3 can't and the same thing will happen as with Firewire - manufacturers will primarily build USB 3 devices and only higher-end equipment will integrate TB because you are paying a lot of money anyway so they may as well make it as fast as they can.


Which is why the MB has to go. They already have an entire production using metal unibody so why switch one product to carbon fibre? They can't make the MB thinner without using stronger plastic so IMO, it's a dead end. If they make it out of metal, how do they make it cheaper vs the 13" Macbook Pro? The only option is to put underpowered parts in it but then you defeat the point of having it separate from the Air.

The current ULV chips are faster than the C2D in the MB:

http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/413524
http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/433510

The full versions would give you double the CPU performance but getting a smaller upgrade is still ok and you get a much thinner and lighter machine made of premium metal with a very fast SSD and instant-on. It's time to take SSD to the mass-market and the MBA is the way to do it. If they can get 160GB in the entry model, I think they'll get away with it.