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Inside look at $4.5B Nortel patent auction reveals battle of wills between Apple, Google - Page 2

post #41 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

I'm sure Google/Intel were planning to offer small handset makers cheaper licensing terms if they went with their OS & chipsets.

As for the Apple-Intel relationship, I don't think it's as bad for Intel as you're painting it. Apple's custom chips are going to continue to dominate in their mobile offerings - and could conceivably end up in the Air - but it's really really hard to see them hitting the MB or MBP lines any time soon. Intel has the worlds best Fabs and that will continue to keep its offering in the Laptop and Desktop space compelling.

Intel and Apple's "toxic" relationship is so overdramatized here. Just because Apple decided to use ARM based chips for the iOS devices and not Intel chips doesn't mean the companies don't have a good relationship. Just look to Thunderbolt as proof that Apple and Intel are still working together for common goals.
post #42 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by aBeliefSystem View Post

Stupid money means more money has to be paid by stupid people.
That of course being us the public.

It is bad news that patents are becoming 'family silver' to be sold off to the highest bidder.

It depends. If you are one of the people that lent about 14 billion (or more, depending on what the claims end up to be) to Nortel, you might not think it so stupid that you can get some of your money back from the auction, through companies that can easily afford it (and companies that can make the best use of the patents).
post #43 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I like to know more about the sub plot where Intel first dropped out then changed sides from the winning Apple consortium to the eventually losing Google one. How weird is that? Were they doing a 'Schmidt the Mole' act from the beginning and always planning to swap and tell Google the thinking on the other side?

Look at the Rockstar line up, most of the companies involved would benefit from making the LTE patents widely available at a low cost. I see this purchase as a way to make sure that the handheld products of the future have the low cost bandwidth they need.
Quote:
How will Intel being on the losing side play out in the future Apple - Intel relations or are they already in the pan as Apple develops its A chips?

Intel knows damn well its chips are not usable in Apples handheld devices. As to Apples other products it is a matter of competition between Intel and AMD, ARM isn't even in the picture.
Quote:
So many questions .... The biggest question maybe how will this change Android's future?

Anybody with any sense would stay away from Android and that really has nothing to do with this auction. One should just be happy that Google, an advertising and spy ware company, didn't get a hold of important LTE patents. Could you imagine, every LTE connection you make would force feed you a Google ad.

I'm not saying Rockstar will not do something stupid just that we are almost guaranteed a far different networking world if Google held the patents.
post #44 of 300
Partial Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Where are you getting that Intel was ever part of the Apple consortium? My reading of the article is that they went from being an independent bidder to talking to both sides.

I must have been dreaming ... I could have sworn I read they were on the same team in previous articles. My bad.
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Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #45 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

$4.5bn is a stupid amount of money. What was in those patents?

This is what I have been wondering.
post #46 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

A big chunk of 4G for starters.

Could you be more specific? Or provide a cite/source for further info? Thanks.
post #47 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Could you imagine, every LTE connection you make would force feed you a Google ad.

Danm... I never thought of that one.

But I did however imagine this auction taking place on eBay with the emails coming in, "You have been outbidded, Please bid a few millions more."

The winner then uses PayPal to pay 4.5 Billion plus taxes and shipping fees to the seller.

Then the patents (boxes and boxes of paper) are delivered by US mail.

Then the buyer goes WTF, that's not what the auction advertised, I want a full refund.

Then PayPal says, "Well, we can give you $200 refund. You'll have to get the rest in court. Good Luck to ya getting your money back from a foreign country."
post #48 of 300
Partial Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I'm not saying Rockstar will not do something stupid just that we are almost guaranteed a far different networking world if Google held the patents.

That's probably very true. On an side bar re Google's moves to be even more aggressive, I notice the free APIs for placing Google maps in web sites are now updated to allow advertising, even competitors to the web site they are on unless you pay the big bucks. The MLS systems must be having a deep think! Personally I switched to http://wikimapia.org
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #49 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Danm... I never thought of that one.

But I did however imagine this auction taking place on eBay with the emails coming in, "You have been out bided, Please bid a few millions more."

The winner then uses PayPal to pay 4.5 Billion plus taxes and shipping fees to the seller.

Then the patents (boxes and boxes of paper) are delivered by US mail.

Then the buyer goes WTF, that's not what the auction advertised, I want a full refund.

Then PayPal says, "Well, we can give you $200 refund. You'll have to get the rest in court. Good Luck to ya getting your money back from a foreign country."

If it said "out bided" I'd assume it was spam
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #50 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I used to play a bit of poker online for money. I don't anymore, because it's now totally illegal, and a small amount of my poker money is still tied up online, thanks to the FBI.

Let's set some facts straight....

Playing online poker is NOT illegal. Playing online poker is NOT illegal even in the Unites States.

What is illegal in the Unites States is the transfer of money between US financial institutions and online gambling businesses.

Therefore, you can play online poker all you want in the United States. You simply can't get your money in and out of there via a US financial institution.

PS: I play a lot of online poker. Even today. And from the US.
post #51 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by roocka View Post

This is great that Apple owns the LTE patents. I hope the A-team rips Samsung a new A-hole. I hope Google gets hit with a huge anti-trust lawsuit. Then I hope Apple releases a Liquidmetal battery and puts every other computer maker out of their misery.

The story everyone seems to be missing here is who gets what in this consortium deal? Most journalists and bloggers seem to assume the winners will all share equally in the IP spoils. But I have people who know people and the word I am hearing it thats not the way the consortium works at all.

Some consortium members get patents, some get royalties, and some just get freedom from having to pay royalties.

Notice Nokia isnt in the consortium? The Finnish company is apparently covered by Microsoft, tying Nokia even more firmly to Windows Phone.

Heres the consortium participation as I understand it. RIM and Ericsson together put up $1.1 billion with Ericsson getting a fully paid-up license to the portfolio while RIM, as a Canadian company like Nortel, gets a paid-up license plus possibly some carry forward operating losses from Nortel, which has plenty of such losses to spare. For RIM the deal might actually have a net zero cost after tax savings, which the Canadian business press hasnt yet figured out.

Microsoft and Sony put up another $1 billion.

There is a reportedly a side deal for about $400 million with EMC that has the storage company walking with sole ownership of an unspecified subset of the Nortel patents.

Finally Apple put up $2 billion for outright ownership of Nortels Long Term Evolution (4G) patents as well as another package of patents supposedly intended to hobble Android.

At the end of the day this deal isnt about royalties. It is about trying to kill Android.

-Cringely
post #52 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Could you be more specific? Or provide a cite/source for further info? Thanks.

http://www.nortel.com/corporate/tech...tents_0506.pdf

A detailed breakdown of all 6000+ patents in their gory detail? No, but it's pretty easy to find references to Nortels LTE patents such as

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/N...ent-Pool-94153
post #53 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Wrong... RIMM alone chipped in 770 Mil. and Ericson chipped in 340 Mil.
That leaves EMC, Sony, Microsoft and Apple.
Apple at most probably paid 2 Bills or less with the others paying half a Mil or more give or take a couple of Mils here and there.

This is an awesome deal for Apple.
Apple can greatly improve upon these technologies over the years while collecting the most royalties.
The patents are also great for defending against the likes of Motorola and Nokia.

Apple is now a telecom powerhouse with the devices to use that power.

Time will tell.



Great post .Apple scored big

9
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beatles
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whats in a name ? 
beatles
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post #54 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Google is a wolf that wears sheeps clothing in public. It is perhaps one of the most evil companies in existence right now. Why? Because of their total disregard for the privacy of the individual.

Have you a few examples of this total disregard for individual privacy? There must be many obvious ones since you state it as fact.
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post #55 of 300
Yes, but there are different patents for accomplishing the same task, although differently. Further, you are assuming Apple isn't already paying licensing fees for some of the Nortel patents. If it is paying said licensing fees, it will no longer be paying them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

You're both making the same error. Either an Apple product reads against someone else's patent or it doesn't. If it does, acquiring a different patent doesn't give Apple any freedom to produce the product (but it might help negotiate a cross-licensing deal). If it doesn't, then Apple didn't need to pay license fees in the first place. There are no parallel patents for a particular way of doing something, though there may be overlapping patents.


All serious academic work on auction theory is based on game theory.
post #56 of 300
deleted my post - rendered blatently wrong by the article update
post #57 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by roocka View Post

The story everyone seems to be missing here is who gets what in this consortium deal? Most journalists and bloggers seem to assume the winners will all share equally in the IP spoils. But I have people who know people and the word I am hearing it thats not the way the consortium works at all.

Some consortium members get patents, some get royalties, and some just get freedom from having to pay royalties.

Notice Nokia isnt in the consortium? The Finnish company is apparently covered by Microsoft, tying Nokia even more firmly to Windows Phone.

Heres the consortium participation as I understand it. RIM and Ericsson together put up $1.1 billion with Ericsson getting a fully paid-up license to the portfolio while RIM, as a Canadian company like Nortel, gets a paid-up license plus possibly some carry forward operating losses from Nortel, which has plenty of such losses to spare. For RIM the deal might actually have a net zero cost after tax savings, which the Canadian business press hasnt yet figured out.

Microsoft and Sony put up another $1 billion.

There is a reportedly a side deal for about $400 million with EMC that has the storage company walking with sole ownership of an unspecified subset of the Nortel patents.

Finally Apple put up $2 billion for outright ownership of Nortels Long Term Evolution (4G) patents as well as another package of patents supposedly intended to hobble Android.

At the end of the day this deal isnt about royalties. It is about trying to kill Android.

-Cringely

Wow, if this turns out to be true, then my earlier guess posted above was right on the money!

I predict that Apple engineers will do wonders with the LTE patents to the benefit of the world.

Time will tell.
post #58 of 300
I guess Apple does see Android as a threat.

This just confirms it that Apple was using desperate measures to stop Android from gaining a foothold by sueing its biggest hardware proponent, Samsung.

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #59 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Meanwhile, Microsoft and Sony reportedly each put up $1 billion. Finally, storage maker EMC brokered a side deal for about $400 million that grants the company sole ownership of a subset of the patents.



Actually Microsoft and Sony are paying a combined total of $1 billion. Not $1 billion each.
post #60 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

I guess Apple does see Android as a threat.

This just confirms it that Apple was using desperate measures to stop Android from gaining a foothold by sueing its biggest hardware proponent, Samsung.


Or maybe Apple were just concerned that Google would try underhanded tactics with thse patents? Did you not notice that Sony & Ericsson are both in the consortium? Does S-E not make android phones? Do you think EMC are out to drive Google from the handset market?
post #61 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Yes, but there are different patents for accomplishing the same task, although differently.

That would necessarily require changing the product. I don't think Steve would ever compromise on the product just to evade patent rights.
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post #62 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

I guess Apple does see Android as a threat.

This just confirms it that Apple was using desperate measures to stop Android from gaining a foothold by sueing its biggest hardware proponent, Samsung.

Of course Apple sees Google as a threat... probably in more ways than one.

You have to remember, though, that the original consortium, Microsoft, RIM, Sony, Ericsson and EMC, was sans Apple and has much more to lose than Apple... recent studies have shown that some of those companies are losing market share to Android but Apple is not. Ericsson then went to Apple asking Apple to become a partner... Apple must have seen an opportunity to save some cash while it crushed Google's bid.

So the question now is... how serious is Google about Android?

[ on edit: where was Motorola in all of this? ]
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post #63 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidInsider View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if Apple owned all LTE patents because of this purchase, couldn't Google or Samsung or whomever just license the technology through Microsoft or one of the other "partners"? The patents are more than likely just for defense.

The key fact is that Apple has outright and clear ownership of the patents. The others in the consortium paid to have rights to use. They do not have rights to grant.
post #64 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

I guess Apple does see Android as a threat.

This just confirms it that Apple was using desperate measures to stop Android from gaining a foothold by sueing its biggest hardware proponent, Samsung.

Not at all dude.

Apple is already making all the money in the smart phone market. Google's interest in Android is advertising and Google is already doing advertising on the iPhone as well. Google is actually eating Microsoft's lunch the way they license Android and thereby helping Apple, although Microsoft is already making more money on Android than WP7 from licensing fees from the Android handset makers.

Apple is suing Samsung and HTC and Motorola because they violate its patents with their custom UIs. Note that Android has changed their UIs significantly but Samsung insist on copying the iPhone UI and hardware designs for their handsets.

Google shot themselves in the foot when they built Android and violated patents and copyrights from Oracle and Microsoft and others. This is coming back to hunt them.

You see, by violating Oracle's Java patents and Copyrights, Google is putting the whole company at risk just for Android. Larry Ellison going after them very hard, and when all is said and done, Android handset makers still have to pay royalties to Microsoft.

Time will tell.
post #65 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

This is coming back to hunt them.

Hunt and haunt them...
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post #66 of 300
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post #67 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Google's interest in Android is advertising and Google is already doing advertising on the iPhone as well.

Google has to pay an unknown amount for the privilege of staying the default search on the iPhone, and at some future point Apple could conceivably switch iOS to use Bing. It's completely understandable why Google wants control of the mobile platform, since it knows it will never have control over the desktop space.

Google is an odd company, too us mortals it can seem terrifyingly powerful but I think its self-perception is still that it is vulnerable. It's scared that one day MS will get Bing to the point where it really competes and find a way to use the Windows/IE monopoly to crush Google search. It's worried that Facebook will use its incredible number of eyeballs to muscle in on Google's advertising. That fear is why it acts with such determination to control new markets like mobile, to contest old markets like desktop and web browsers and to keep trying to crack social networking.
post #68 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Google shot themselves in the foot when they built Android and violated patents and copyrights from Oracle and Microsoft and others. This is coming back to hunt them.

You see, by violating Oracle's Java patents and Copyrights, Google is putting the whole company at risk just for Android. Larry Ellison going after them very hard, and when all is said and done, Android handset makers still have to pay royalties to Microsoft.

Time will tell.

I think you meant to say Oracle and Microsoft claim some patent infringements. That's far different than making it a fact.
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post #69 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

AppleInsider wrote:

No - Cringely wrote, AI quoted. Is that so very hard to understand? Cringely being the guy who's totally incorrect back of the envelope calculations lead him to state that the Apple NC datacentre was in fact a Potemkin village.
post #70 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I think you meant to say Oracle and Microsoft claim some patent infringements. That's far different than making it a fact.

Yes. You are correct. It is not a fact... yet...

Time will tell.
post #71 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I think you meant to say Oracle and Microsoft claim some patent infringements. That's far different than making it a fact.

Well at least 3 Android makers are currently paying MS royalties including one big one, so at this point I'd say that ship has sailed. If Google were sure of their situation they could have tried to insert themselves into the HTC suit, but they didn't.

Oracle is still a much more open question though.
post #72 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Not at all dude.

Google is actually eating Microsoft's lunch the way they license Android and thereby helping Apple,

Google is eating Microsoft's lunch. Hmmm ... that would be true if all handset makers stopped delivering Windows phones in favor of Android. But that's not what happened, is it? Microsoft stopped feeding itself by falling behind in its Windows Phone 7 development. And then, when it came out, it was behind in features. What OS did the like of Samsung and HTC have to turn to in 2008 and 2009, if Android wasn't around? All to say, history is clear on Google not eating anyone's lunch per se, even if their releases are named Cupcake, Donut, Eclair, Froyo, Gingerbread, Honeycomb, Ice Cream Sandwich, etc.

What would have happened if WP7 came out at the same time as Android, and with a full feature set? That would have been interesting. Then we could talk lunch.

Given the state of affairs now, MSFT might have missed out quite a bit and time will tell if they can recover the lost market. But the loss is theirs to own.
post #73 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Yes. You are correct. It is not a fact... yet...

Time will tell.

Oh, it is a fact already. At least the MSFT part. In a patent infringement fight, if the alleged infringer agrees to settle, infringement is fact. Since HTC agreed to settle over a year ago, MSFT has claimed de facto victory.

What is not fact is the $5. This is strictly a guess on the part of one analyst, which has spread virally around the internet. Funny how we mock analysts and their inaccurate predictions on some things but trip over ourselves using their other claims as fact when there is no other data available.

To sum up, it is a fact MSFT will make a tidy sum from Android licenses. But any estimate on how much is NOT a fact. In fact, whatever it is, it is more a moral victory for MSFT than financial.
post #74 of 300
This is more than just Apple vs. Google. This is akin to a two-way player in sports - offense and defense. You don't do it just to beat one team. You do it to become a better team overall. You also do it to prevent that player to fall into someone else's hands. Apple does not have enough IT on real telecom technology. They had to catch up. If it happens to spite and stifle Google, cool. But they would have done it regardless.

The analysis shouldn't about why they did this. It's smart business. Clearly, every other company thought likewise. It would have been more interesting if they didn't try, for that would have been business suicide.
post #75 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

Oh, it is a fact already. At least the MSFT part. In a patent infringement fight, if the alleged infringer agrees to settle, infringement is fact. Since HTC agreed to settle over a year ago, MSFT has claimed de facto victory.

I don't think it's quite that strong, but I do agree that it raises the bar for anybody trying to invalidate the patent or to claim non infringement in a similar case.
post #76 of 300
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post #77 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Ah, you young whippersnapper... There was a time when the Internet was *not* used to "poke" or "friend" people. You met and hung out with real friends in flesh and bone, and the Internet was used to look up information*, not to go virtual farming or what not.

There was a time when a "cell phone" meant that you could be reached in emergencies, it was not a device for your girlfriend/boyfriend to sext you 30 times a day.

Bottom line, this Nortel owns a lot of patents for a lot of what we do today in the mobile and Internet world we take for granted. And a lot of patents for a lot of what is to come.

*Yes, including porn, it saved many a teen from embarassing trips from the magazine rack to the cashier even from its early days.

Ha. Next you're going to tell me that there was music on MTV. Thanks, though. This actually makes a lot more sense in the morning
post #78 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

It may well be that AppleInsider demonstrated poor judgment in quoting Cringely. Wouldn't be the first time AI demonstrated poor judgment.

How is it every time you make a mistake, no matter how gratuitous or sloppy it's AI's fault? The reason they are quoting Cringely is he is the only guy talking about the breakdown of consortium participation.

Own your errors dude.
post #79 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanchairman View Post

It's amazing and amusing how many infantile minds in various forums (fora actually) including this one view the patent wrangling and auctions as some kind of football game and come out rooting for one side or the other.

[pedantic]The English plural forums is preferred to the Latin plural fora in normal English usage.[/pedantic]

Carry on.
post #80 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpnorton82 View Post

[pedantic]The English plural forums is preferred to the Latin plural fora in normal English usage.[/pedantic]

Carry on.

Yes but what if he was using the locative plural
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