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Palm chief addresses poor TouchPad reviews, compares webOS to Apple's early Mac OS X - Page 2

post #41 of 110
He's right about the start of OS X. But it's also a fact that OS X and iOS share 85% the same source code, so by saying how much OS X has improved he is inadvertently complementing the iDevices too, and that can't be great for morale!
post #42 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) Whether you think it's an apt comparison or not, don't ignore the free press WebOS and HP is getting just by comparing to Apple.

2) I'd think iPhone OS would be a better comparison since Apple didn't have another OS and the number of apps was considerably more limited since there wasn't an SDK and it not a decade old OS fork.

3) Off topic: has Sprint ever sponsored a marathon?

The free press is definitely a plus and if managed properly, could help HP a lot.

As far as comparing it to iOS when it was first released, it's a tough sell. The iOS experience was infinitely better than other market players at the time. WebOS is great but it isn't infinitely better. It does has a lot of visual polish, which is great, but the only true differentiator right now is the card based multitasking. It needs developer support as well as consumer interest. It isn't different enough to sway people from iOS right now. Does it have the potential to? Absolutely, but Apple and the rest of the competition for that matter, won't be standing still. They are trying to catch up to a mature platform (iOS and its developer tools) that is constantly improving.
post #43 of 110
The difference is OS X was version 1, this is version 3. Palm has a lot of good ideas, and if they beat Android to market back in the day they would have been the number 2 OS for sure, licensed and running on a miriad of devices. However, their version 3 product is 3 years late to market, it is slow, sluggish and big. I give Palm a lot of credit for what they are doing, but I just don't see webOS as anything other then an android skin at this point.
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post #44 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_K View Post

Whether you fan boys and girls like it or not, Web OS has potential. It will take time, let's say 3-4 years. But in the end, it will come.
It is indeed a marathon and if they improve the UI, make it stable and please developers, it'll be successful. You guys need a good reality check!!! etc etc

I am not sure it's the "you guys" that you refer to that need the reality check. Do you seriously think that Apple will be standing still in the next 3-4 years?!

Here's a thought experiment: go back 3-4 years and ask: what's happened in touch since then?
post #45 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

3) Off topic: has Sprint ever sponsored a marathon?

If I was on their PR team, I'd take that concept and run with it.....
post #46 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

WebOS is so much better than Android in terms of a fit to the market and the users. Android is proprietary, invasive, and primarily only useful for the young techie males it's aimed at.

You do get that WebOS is proprietary too right?
post #47 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

You do get that WebOS is proprietary too right?

They are all proprietary, and they are all "open" to varying degrees.

WebOS is arguably the most open in that the focus is on open web-based apps. It has all of the (supposed) open-ness of Android (and more), without any of the downside.
post #48 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

They are all proprietary, and they are all "open" to varying degrees.

WebOS is arguably the most open in that the focus is on open web-based apps. It has all of the (supposed) open-ness of Android (and more), without any of the downside.

Huh? You're saying that because you can develop using web tools it's open? For years the programming language of choice for Windows was C, did that make windows open? There's nothing intrinsically closed about a development environment that compiles to native versus one that is interpreted. Objective C is in fact completely open - the compiler Apple use is an open source fork off from GCC.

The day that HP release WebOS as open source you can say it's as open as Android, until then it's just as proprietary as Apple.
post #49 of 110
I'll the same here as I did on MacRumors:

I enjoyed seeing him working back with all my fellow NeXT colleagues but he's wrong assessing the popularity of the TouchPad to OS X.

The TouchPad is akin to a failed NeXTStation minus the technical prowess that was the NeXTStation relative to it's competition back in the day.

Jon never has been a visionary. He's a great engineer who knows how to execute the vision of others. He's also no salesman. It's not in his personality.

His need to try and be the next Steve is him overshooting his talents.
post #50 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Huh? You're saying that because you can develop using web tools it's open? For years the programming language of choice for Windows was C, did that make windows open? There's nothing intrinsically closed about a development environment that compiles to native versus one that is interpreted. Objective C is in fact completely open - the compiler Apple use is an open source fork off from GCC.

The day that HP release WebOS as open source you can say it's as open as Android, until then it's just as proprietary as Apple.

With 10.7 the move to LLVM/Clang will be complete and the code is all open source.

Even ARC has become open inside LLVM's Source Tree. Apple is changing the landscape in the FOSS world with LLVM.
post #51 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

Just what I was thingking. Also I'm not super sure, but I think the 10.0 version was called a "beta" and was free (or $20 with a discount on the first paid release.)

10.0, Cheetah, was free and a public beta. 10.1, Puma, wasn't considered beta, but it was also free. 10.2, Jaguar, was the first version of OS X that was actually worth using as a primary system, but it wasn't free.
post #52 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Seriously guys I love my Apple hardware but you guys have extremely short memories...

This is more about Palm's history than it is about the early days of OSX. I've been a palm developer for years and I see the same screw-ups they did back then, happening now.

I have zero faith in Rubenstein's ability to run it. Palm was dead in the water due to management's greed and incompetence. They screwed and abandoned their developers, got lazy, figured their Palm Treo's were the best thing since sliced bread, and flat-out did a RIM-job by sitting back and watching Apple / Android come out of nowhere and essentially shut them down.

Now comes WebOS. Admittedly a good mobile OS candidate. After the whole introduction hoopla (which I regret not buying Palm stock those first few months in 2009) and the iHaters calling it the iPhone killer, they introduce their WebOS phone that turns out to be a big turd. Flimsy quality, horrible battery life, keyboard that breaks after a few sentences. And Rubenstein's excuse? Bad timing. What a tool. Apparently, he refused to accept that he seriously ruined his one chance and once again, Palm was left on the vine to wither and die.

But wait... HP decided to hire Rubenstein's amazing ability to crash and burn, figuring he's obviously inept to run a company, maybe he could do better if he manages the tablet/WebOS unit instead.

And like dejavu all over again, he introduces the same piece of crap that is a bastard-child of the Palm Pre. Same build quality issues, and even with a few years of WebOS had to mature, it's still not ready for prime time.

I mean come-on!! I think WebOS had a better chance at competing with the iPhone in terms of OS potential, but Rubenstein just seems to be stuck in his glass office looking down at everyone and not noticing what the consumer does. He is as clueless now, as he was back then. I question his performance on the iPod. He was probably one of many people that contributed, but it wasn't his vision to get it going and make it successful.

When the Pre was announced, A friend I knew at Palm asked me to come back and develop for them. They were trying to extend an olive branch to all the developers they burned. She claimed Palm was really in a position again to be the top-dog in the mobile arena. I told her bluntly I would never contribute one iota of time to Palm ever again due to the way management ran that company. A few months after the Pre came out and got flushed down the toilet, she quit Palm quickly and told me later everything I told her that was wrong with the company has in fact remained the same. Rubenstein and his crowd of "yes men" alienated everyone that could make Palm a great company. Simple ignorance.

WebOS will be an asterisk in the history books as an OS that could have, should have, but in the end = "didn't have" what it took. So sad.

This is not an OSX story. Rubenstein is just slinging everything at the wall and hopes something sticks.
post #53 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by kabantum View Post

They're share of the worlds tablet air space is 1% (50 times more than any of its competitors) as reported by AppleInsider just yesterday.

Actually the iPad has 1% of ALL WEB TRAFFIC, not 1% of the world's tablet air space, which is some feat!. Check again!
post #54 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccherry View Post

Hate that washed up PC maker with their cheap a** calculators.

Hey - those cheap a** calculators saved many an engineer's hid back in the day. Of course that was when H and P were still running the company and HP had top of the line measuring and test equipment. The crap began when Carly Flatulence bought her way into the top job.
post #55 of 110
I can't believe he said that!

When Apple brought out OS X, there was nothing quite like it. It was either System 9, Windows 3.1 (urghh!) or command line interfaces like DOS, *NIX etc. Of course, they all gave out bad review as it is new and nothing quite like it but now, we have iOS, Android and Windows 7 with all new ways of interacting with the machine, WebOS is mediocre. Didn't he read RIM anonymous letter to the board? Don't sent out products when they are not yet ready just because you want to be a 'me too' and quarterly report is coming. Has he lost his engineering skills all the years working with Apple?
post #56 of 110
Scratch the last line. He never had.
post #57 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

The question, is HP going after the all encompassing consumer market or is their plan to bundle this with the enterprise business solutions similar to RIM is doing with their play book.

HP will run into stiff enterprise competition from Cisco's Cius tablet, which, though based on Android, will have some Cisco original apps, most especially TelePresence.

On a side note I find it ironic that Cisco is using Android instead of its own IOS (Internet Operating System) or even a license of iOS (which could have been part of the deal with Apple to allow Apple to use the name iOS).

Cisco will be aiming this directly at the enterprise with no anticipated penetration of the consumer market.
post #58 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

3) Off topic: has Sprint ever sponsored a marathon?

Ah, Soli, a true nugget in today's discussion! I have no idea but I'd ask the obverse: Has Marathon Gas ever sponsored a sprint?
post #59 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by gprovida View Post

In other words, its OK to bring a new beast to the table, but WebOS does not have OS9 fall back. This would be like saying iOS in 2007 was like 10.0, and 10.1, it was not. It was fast, smooth, and slick, yeah there new features desired and they came along, but the version iOS1.0 was pretty good and operational on day 1. I know I got one and it just kept getting better and better.

So HP is doing the Rim and Google Android/Chrome, that is, release a beta and eventually release a final product version 1 in a year or so. Its ironic that MS is more like Apple in trying to get out a quality product versus a beta and let the users sort it out.

This is tough call, it takes time [Apple took years and a lot of money, ergo their being pissed with Samsung copycats not competing] to master the performance in the meantime Apple gobbles up market and worst keeps moving the goal posts with improvements.

So HP, RIM, and Google have chosen get to market and fix the product later. Hopefully, Apple's inability to meet demand will persuade users to grab a beta and live with it.

I do find it ironic that HP and RIM get poor to middling reviews on their products and Google with equally poor hardware/software on tablets gets a pass, 'grading on the curve."

Observations may be reviewers are now embarrassed by their leaning over backward on Google and nailing HP and RIM.


"Apple has followed the typical Apple sequence: (1) throw out something that’s popular and comfortable but increasingly ancient, (2) replace it with something that’s slick and modern and forward-looking and incomplete, (3) spend another year finishing it up, restoring missing pieces."

David Pogue

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/...nal-cut-pro-x/
post #60 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Jon never has been a visionary. He's a great engineer who knows how to execute the vision of others. He's also no salesman. It's not in his personality.

His need to try and be the next Steve is him overshooting his talents.

The Peter Principle in action?
post #61 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

The Peter Principle in action?

He definitely sees something in the mirror that his history has proven to be just a mirage.
post #62 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

"Apple has followed the typical Apple sequence: (1) throw out something that’s popular and comfortable but increasingly ancient, (2) replace it with something that’s slick and modern and forward-looking and incomplete, (3) spend another year finishing it up, restoring missing pieces."

David Pogue

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/...nal-cut-pro-x/

How is this relevant? Are you saying the TouchPad is increaasingly ancient? Slick and Modern? HP isn't doing an OS-X or an FCP-X, they're not migrating an existing userbase over - they're trying to build a completely new one.
post #63 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post

Hey - those cheap a** calculators saved many an engineer's hid back in the day. Of course that was when H and P were still running the company and HP had top of the line measuring and test equipment. The crap began when Carly Flatulence bought her way into the top job.

Love my HP-12C. Still use it after 30+(?) years. Agree about Carly. She ruined the company.
post #64 of 110
Marathon? Well said. Have you ever considered releasing it when you are closer to the finish line? If you know you are selling a half-done product, then why are you charging people full price?
post #65 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Worst people have already made up their mind that TouchPad is a failure. That is a big mistake in my mind. You can be pretty sure Apple is already looking over TouchPad if for nothing else to better understand their weaknesses relative to TouchPad.

Being a fan boi is one thing but blinding yourself to what is happening in the rest of the industry is pretty stupid. Besides it is in Apples best interest to have an non Android competitor.

There's fanboyish optimism and negativism of course. But one can also be realistic. I wish webOS and HP's Palm division well, but they've got it much worse than Mac OS X ever had. Apple bet the company on Mac OS X with everyone from the CEO to retail personnel doing everything they could to improve upon it.

A lot of people think HP gets "it". That they are going to use webOS like Apple is going to use webOS. Problem is that webOS is a not even a pimple on HPs org chart and it hasn't made them any money yet. By this time next year, the MS Windows forces with HP, the part of the company that contributes to large chunk of HP's bottom line, will have Windows 8 on ARM to play with. Those guys are going to have a gun pointed at Rubenstein's Palm division.

I don't know how long HP plans on carrying a multi-OS strategy, but it's going to come to head. HP has to commit the company to webOS to make it successful, but I really don't think they will. It's going to be a lot like IBM's OS/2 issues in the 1990s with inter-division rivalry. If webOS doesn't make any headway within a year, I think it's done.
post #66 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

How is this relevant? Are you saying the TouchPad is increaasingly ancient? Slick and Modern? HP isn't doing an OS-X or an FCP-X, they're not migrating an existing userbase over - they're trying to build a completely new one.

He was referring to the transition from the "ancient" looking Palm OS 5 to the "slick and modern" webOS. webOS may have been more successful if there was more support for legacy Palm OS software, but I doubt it because the Palm OS was essentially dead by the time Jon Rubenstein came in.
post #67 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

There's fanboyish optimism and negativism of course. But one can also be realistic. I wish webOS and HP's Palm division well, but they've got it much worse than Mac OS X ever had. Apple bet the company on Mac OS X with everyone from the CEO to retail personnel doing everything they could to improve upon it.

A lot of people think HP gets "it". That they are going to use webOS like Apple is going to use webOS. Problem is that webOS is a not even a pimple on HPs org chart and it hasn't made them any money yet. By this time next year, the MS Windows forces with HP, the part of the company that contributes to large chunk of HP's bottom line, will have Windows 8 on ARM to play with. Those guys are going to have a gun pointed at Rubenstein's Palm division.

I don't know how long HP plans on carrying a multi-OS strategy, but it's going to come to head. HP has to commit the company to webOS to make it successful, but I really don't think they will. It's going to be a lot like IBM's OS/2 issues in the 1990s with inter-division rivalry. If webOS doesn't make any headway within a year, I think it's done.

Well HP did say that they wanted all of their PCs to have a version of webOS running atop Windows.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/09/w...year-says-ceo/
post #68 of 110
I'm sorry, but addressing a large email with the pronoun "Team" is just.... douchey. He's right though. No software is good at 1.0. Give them a year, they will make it fairly nice. Diminishing returns... iOS 4.0 is pretty good and it will be possible to match that within 12-18 months.
post #69 of 110
Good motivational letter. At least one executive is open with his works and knows what need to be done. However, I don't think WebOS will survive long because HP will look at the numbers and they will not be as patient as Rubinstein.
post #70 of 110
I'm a big fan of WebOS particularly when compared to Android.
post #71 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by pik80 View Post

Finally, it took eighteen comments to get to some common sense. From what I remember OS X didn't really get usable until about 10.3. I thought it was funny when someone said they have OS 9 to fall back on. How is a quite old legacy OS like OS 9 a fall back plan? I fail to see how OS 9 could compete around a time when MS finally started to get their act together with the stable Windows XP. I know people here don't want to give credit to anything Windows but the one thing you could say about XP was that it finally got stable. OS 9 would have had a hard time competing.


I'm not sure who you're replying to when you said "I thought it was funny when someone said they have OS 9 to fall back on," so forgive me if I'm not interpreting your thoughts 100% correctly.

Regardless, in response to your comment, "How is a quite old legacy OS like OS 9 a fall back plan?" OS 9 wasn't so much of a back up plan, *but a fully functional platform that was 99% compatible with OS X*. For that reason, comparing the current version of WebOS to Mac OS X 10.0 is rather disingenuous. Maybe the current state of WebOS itself is comparable to Mac OS X 10.0, but the state of the software ecosystem is night and day!

Sure, there are some older phone-based WebOS apps that work on the TouchPad, but as far as I can tell, the compatibility layer is pretty janky. (Please correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't actually used a TouchPad).

That said, I actually really want WebOS to succeed! I think iOS is great, but it's not perfect, and I think it would be wonderful for there to be a legitimate alternative. But I'm not an Apple apologist, nor am I an HP apologist. If HP's shit stinks, then I'm not gonna pretend it smells like roses.
post #72 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

Just what I was thingking. Also I'm not super sure, but I think the 10.0 version was called a "beta" and was free (or $20 with a discount on the first paid release.)

No, I'm pretty sure the beta was a separate thing. I remember buying it myself. I wonder if I still have that disk laying around somewhere. That would be kind of awesome. XD
post #73 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

He was referring to the transition from the "ancient" looking Palm OS 5 to the "slick and modern" webOS. webOS may have been more successful if there was more support for legacy Palm OS software, but I doubt it because the Palm OS was essentially dead by the time Jon Rubenstein came in.

If they're only expecting to get the last few holdouts on Palm OS to move across then I guess that applies - if they expect to pick up significant new business then they don't want to claim this to be like the OS-X transition - because it took near on a decade for Mac to really break out of its core market and it was the iPod that did it, and perhaps the MS bungling of Vista - the modern & slick OS-X was necessary but not sufficient. Oh and the transition to Intel helped because it gave a huge performance bump, WebOS doesn't have the option of moving to faster hardware - it's already on the fastest available without sacrificing battery life, and it apparently still feels slow.



(Graph from Low End Mac)

If Rubenstein is right then they're still going to need a miracle, maybe three.
post #74 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheff View Post

The difference is OS X was version 1, this is version 3. Palm has a lot of good ideas, and if they beat Android to market back in the day they would have been the number 2 OS for sure, licensed and running on a miriad of devices. However, their version 3 product is 3 years late to market, it is slow, sluggish and big. I give Palm a lot of credit for what they are doing, but I just don't see webOS as anything other then an android skin at this point.

That's not totally true. MacOS X 10.0 was preceded by NeXTSTEP and MacOS X Server 1.0, so MacOS X 10.0 wasn't exactly a "version 1.0" product either.
post #75 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider View Post

A marathon in which they started running 2 years after others,so they better sprint all they way if they wanna get placed ( or somewhere near that)

Exactly! Mac OSX was unique and compelling that it survived the birthing pains.

Web OS has stiff competition in the iPad and iOS. Indeed, if anything it's behind! You don't have time for excuses - if you want to pass Apple, you have to do it now - not some distant point in the future.

Because Apple isn't stopping either!
post #76 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Fine Line View Post

That's not totally true either. MacOS X 10.0 was preceded by NeXTSTEP and MacOS X Server 1.0, so MacOS X 10.0 wasn't exactly a "version 1.0" product either.

Heck, the filename for iPhoto's icon is still "NSApplicationIcon".
post #77 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

The same goes for iOS. If any of you where involved in the first SDK release you will know what I'm talking about. Apple had many iOS releases in quick succession to deal with significant bugs.

Apple could get away with this because they were first. HP isn't. That's the point - not that companies have growing pains or that "stuff happens" - the point is HP has lost the luxury of time and has to produce, or rightly take their lumps.

That's the way it works. HP isn't competing against iOS 1 or the iPad 1...
post #78 of 110
Has Bungie ever sponsored a Marathon? (ha...... ha....... get....... it........? ahhhhh.......)
post #79 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

I completely agree. So many here are so quick to write off his argument when in reality everything he said was true, and I for one think that webOS has potential.

People - most people anyway - aren't going to buy on potential. At some point real artists ship

Quote:
Kudos to Jon and he makes great points. Hoping the best for him and webOS.

Hope 'aint gonna cut it either. They will either step up and at least meet the iPad, or they won't succeed. He can make all the "right" points in the world, but great philosophical arguments won't sell tablets.
post #80 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Heck, the filename for iPhoto's icon is still "NSApplicationIcon".

Oh, man, I want to work at 1 Geostationary Tower! lol that sounds awesome
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