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Lawsuit accuses Missouri Apple Store of race, gender discrimination - Page 2

post #41 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

The case making headlines and being in the news is itself shining the light on the issue.

Boy, verbose no? Shinning the light, haha...
post #42 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post

And you know this how?

This stuff happens in retail all the time. It's not indicative of the company as a whole; it's almost always the store manager's biases. Most of the time, I don't even think it's conscious.

Were either of the full time people promoted by this manager. If the guy is racist, the answer would be no.

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(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #43 of 123
And why is racism such a big deal to begin with ?
post #44 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

Rubbish

Oh no. You said rubbish so you must be correct. Back on the meds and get some rest. Mmmk?
post #45 of 123
It would interesting to know what her education is and how articulate she is. Those can be really big factors in job promotions. Even though she received a favorable review, 4 out of 5, promotions often require more than just having an acceptable review. There are a lot of intangibles, mannerisms or expectations that aren't always part of the performance review.

If that 5th point was related to the remark that she needed to work on her composure, that might be the issue. Some white customers at that store may be racist which could cause tension with a black sales person, but there is not much you can do about that, so long as they don't make illegal statements. That is where the composure part comes into play.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #46 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcphoto View Post

There was enough evidence for the EEOC to allow the employee to pursue a lawsuit. I grew up in St. Louis and the racial demographics can change greatly from one community to another. Is Apple simply employing people or are they committed to training professionals? If the Manager only documents an employees positive attributes, is he or she doing the employee a disservice by not giving them constructive criticism on things that they can work on in order to progress within Apples system? Let's give her the benefit of the doubt until all the facts are revealed.

A right to sue letter means that the EEOC has investigated, did not find evidence of discrimination, and has informed the complainant of that as well as her statutory right to sue regardless.

Also, statistics aren't relevant evidence to proving discrimination that she's alleging.

Finally, a Complaint is only one side of the story. I make no judgment as to the truth of the allegations but remember they are just that, and not proven fact.
post #47 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

This statement goes way too far IMO.
I think you are either going off the deep end in an attempt to make your point, or you are a strong racist (or at least inclined that way) yourself.

Black people *are* discriminated against by the white folks, as are gays and asians and all kinds of other groups. It *does* happen and not everyone who makes a complaint is crazy. They certainly shouldn't just be immediately assumed to be so without any evidence whatsoever.


.......

.

This is certainly true, and equally true is that black folks discriminate against white folks, gays and asians, AND gays discriminate against whites and black and asians and hispanics, AND......

All people have some level of built in biases, some more some less. Some can controls those biases better than others. None of this is limited to any one group of people.

Throwing one part of a truism into your argument really does nothing to support any given conclusion. No one here as anywhere near enough facts to make any judgement, including you.
post #48 of 123
deleted
post #49 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post

I posted a link to it. It's 47% black, 45% white. So Apple's 8% ratio is way off.

And whites very often find light-skinned blacks less intimidating or threatening than dark-skinned blacks, and lighter-skinned blacks are often considered more beautiful by whites, because they have "whiter" features. That's not puzzling or surprising if you've ever actually worked with or talked with black people… or any minorities, really… about this subject.

You automatically jump to several conclusions here without knowing the facts of the particular case. You are speculating.

Since when does a company's hiring practices HAVE to mirror population composition? Ergo, color is more important than competence? I don't imagine you realize how truly racist your "progressive" principles are.

If a lesser candidate is given race-based preferences, it only widens the disparity between the races in the long run.
post #50 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Apple, the new Abercrombie and Fitch. Well, I could be wrong but until recently I have not seen many minorities in Apple advertisements. Just shiny happy snowboarders, or mountain climbers, or people at the beach.

Not true. Some of the very first iPod ads had blacks in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Personally, I believe her story. Not that Apple per se is bad, but in this case the store may have had such a policy or problem with minorities.

Amazing how people will believe someone without hearing the other side. Wouldn't justice require that BOTH sides get to tell their story?
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post #51 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Oh no. You said rubbish so you must be correct. Back on the meds and get some rest. Mmmk?

It being shit cold at elnsinki I suggest you jump.
post #52 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post

And you know this how?

This stuff happens in retail all the time. It's not indicative of the company as a whole; it's almost always the store manager's biases. Most of the time, I don't even think it's conscious.

It's worth noting that St. Louis has slightly more black people than white people. (http://www.city-data.com/city/St.-Louis-Missouri.html) So only 8% of your staff be black in St. Louis seems a bit off.

Good info. Unfortunately, the Galleria is in St Louis County, not the city. It is sandwiched between two of the wealthier suburbs of St Louis County, Ladue and Clayton. The Galleria, for better or worse, tries to project an image of up scale shopping, evidenced by the fact Apple chose the location for it's store. The city the Galleria resides in, Richmond Heights, has a population that is 13.32% black, according to Wikipedia. 8% is not great, but not wildly out of keeping with the stores locale. I am not trying to find fault or favor with either the Plantiff or Defendants here, just keeping the facts visible to all. And I know this because I live in St Louis, and bought my MBPro, 2 iPhones, an iPad2, 27" iMac and truckloads of other goodies at the store in question.
post #53 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Not true. Some of the very first iPod ads had blacks in them.



Amazing how people will believe someone without hearing the other side. Wouldn't justice require that BOTH sides get to tell their story?

I did say I could be wrong. I do not remember the first ads but I am willing to take your word for it. As for believing her side of the story first, yeah, considering that the current climate in the US is anti-black, anti-gay, anti-anything-non-WASP, anti-minority, chances are she might have a point. The courts will find who's at fault.
post #54 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

It being shit cold at elnsinki I suggest you jump.

In english next time okay. Try to string together a cogent argument and a intelligent sentence. Have your mommy help you next time.
post #55 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Amazing how people will believe someone without hearing the other side. Wouldn't justice require that BOTH sides get to tell their story?

IMO there's too few members that have any interest in hearing the "other side" of many discussions here, whether it's privacy issues, or copying allegations or claimed patent infringement or discrimination lawsuits.
melior diabolus quem scies
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post #56 of 123
Because of the unequal protection under the law offered to minorities, gender benders, and other "protected" classes through agencies such as the EEOC, there is a backlash effect. Any prospective employer would weigh the risks of hiring someone who might sue them if things didn't work out.

Do white males have the same options as protected classes do when they are unhappy? Of course not. Therefore, there is arguably less legal risk to hire non-protected classes, i.e. "white males".

You can't have it both ways, folks.
post #57 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

The case making headlines and being in the news is itself shining the light on the issue.

Shining the light on what issue? Aren't you assuming there actually is an issue here?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #58 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

The USA is one of the most racist countries on Earth, if not the most racist. It's not *that * unlikely that what she says is true.

You obviously haven't traveled.
post #59 of 123
The woman was a looser. She was warned about her behavior. She just didn't get promoted and now she's mad. There is nothing serious with this case.
post #60 of 123
It is unfortunate that in today's politically correct society and everyone's agreement that discrimination and racism is wrong, it obviously still exists. Statistics are not proof, but perceptions can be real.

The fact is is that there will always be discrimination. Everyone has their preferences and biases. Sometimes it is easy to hide, sometimes it is hard to hide.

Let this case pan out. It could be quite valid. It might not be.
post #61 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post

I posted a link to it. It's 47% black, 45% white. So Apple's 8% ratio is way off.

And whites very often find light-skinned blacks less intimidating or threatening than dark-skinned blacks, and lighter-skinned blacks are often considered more beautiful by whites, because they have "whiter" features. That's not puzzling or surprising if you've ever actually worked with or talked with black people or any minorities, really about this subject.

And blacks often find lighter-skinned blacks more beautiful too, which isn't surprising since I've both worked with AND talked with black people. Amazing, yes? Actually, you find the same thing in other minority communities where they strive to keep their skin as light as possible regardless of whether they're dealing with mean old whitey.

So it goes.
post #62 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasT View Post

Because of the unequal protection under the law offered to minorities, gender benders, and other "protected" classes through agencies such as the EEOC, there is a backlash effect. Any prospective employer would weigh the risks of hiring someone who might sue them if things didn't work out.

Do white males have the same options as protected classes do when they are unhappy? Of course not. Therefore, there is arguably less legal risk to hire non-protected classes, i.e. "white males".

You can't have it both ways, folks.

Lol. Yep. I remember a great Affirmative Action training class I got to go to. When asking whether the hiring practices would be reversed (that is, hiring whites over others) in the case that the balance at the company was too high in minority hiring, I got a "Well, no!". When asking whether that didn't make these hiring practices discriminatory, it was explained to me "No, that's affirmative action!".

Whatever. If a company is intentionally favoring one candidate over another because of color, it's discrimination, but of course if it's against whites then it's legally protected and Politically Correct discrimination.
post #63 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC4Theo View Post

This fool should be happy she has a job. In a declining economy with over 30 million people looking for work, any person who has a job should be grateful to the employer. If you don't like it, quit.

So in your world anyone who is discriminated against in a bad economy should just roll over and take it? You don't know what's going on here any more than I do, she might have a case. If you cared at all about the well being of Apple or it's employees, you would let this case take its fair, due course. Maybe you don't believe in laws?

Quote:
There are other ways to get a promotion and advancement in a work place, other than checking to see how many of your skin color types are present.

It may be a valid point, for all we know right now this manager does indeed have a prejudice against dark skinned blacks. I'm sure evidence will present itself quickly enough.

Quote:
Obama is the president. How many black people out of the reported 453 employees in the white house are blacks? Less than 7 percent. Is any of them suing? Hell, no.

You don't have a valid or coherent point. They aren't suing the boss, so probably none of them feel discriminated against. What's the issue? Why bring up this as an example of... anything?

Quote:
Apple should start letting employees sign an Arbitration Waiver like Walmart. Working at an Apple store is more than a retail job, you are getting an education for your future. Be grateful!

I don't know why anyone here would want APPL to be like wal-mart in any way, shape or form.
post #64 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I find this interesting because there is a large number of African Americans at my place of work, along with a bunch of other minorities. Generally the staff does not throw in the race card.

Generally.

I'm black and I work with black people too. I can safely say, with some expertise, that the race card is used a lot by black folks, especially when a poor evaluation is given based on incompetence rather than color.

F.Y.I., I'm not African American, I'm black. African American is a bullshit phrase that was made up by someone who was trying to be P.C. But hey, if it makes you feel less guilty
post #65 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

rubbish...

Not so. They will not even hire me- a seventy year old Indian who has been a fanboy since 1976.
post #66 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

But what puzzle me even more is the fact that she made distinction between her situation and others lighter skinned African American. She look like to be the one who made race discrimination here.

I am not black and I cannot speak on their behalf, but even I know that there is more discrimination with darker skinned than lighter.

Anybody after reading this article who says this suit is rubbish or that she is wrong, is just crazy. How can any of us know one way or the other based on just this article?

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post #67 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamiltonrrwatch View Post

Generally.

I'm black and I work with black people too. I can safely say, with some expertise, that the race card is used a lot by black folks, especially when a poor evaluation is given based on incompetence rather than color.

Maybe you are right, but it is just silly for any of us to speculate without any first hand knowledge. An article like this should have commenting turned off.

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post #68 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by techno View Post

Maybe you are right, but it is just silly for any of us to speculate without any first hand knowledge. An article like this should have commenting turned off.

You make a good point.
post #69 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

You see you demonstrate the same sort of ignorance that you accuses the Tea Party (<-- fixed your typo for you!) members of being involved in. Frankly it is pretty easy to demonstrate that those in the Democratic Party are shallow ignorant thinkers, self centered, thieves, lazy and not concerned about the welfare of their fellow man. In fact one could easy see the parties name being changed to the Lazy No Good Thieves Party with the result that it would be a more accurate name.

Oh crap. I get it now! Wizard69 is a conservative right-leaning righty. Standing up for the Tea Party, calling the dems names =) Maybe this is why our viewpoints don't line up so well.
post #70 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post

I posted a link to it. It's 47% black, 45% white. So Apple's 8% ratio is way off.

Since when is Apple required to fill a quota to match the local population?

In any case, who says even half of the applicants for jobs were black?

The whole thing stinks, IMO. Of course, I was not there so I cannot say definitively. If the manager said she didn't deal well with customers, and she rubbed several of her co-workers the wrong way, why would that possibly earn you a promotion?

Of course, I'm sure the whole thing is a racist conspiracy.
post #71 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Shining the light on what issue? Aren't you assuming there actually is an issue here?

My original post stated that I hope that this case hitting the news would shine the light on the larger issue of racism in high end retail. Most high end retailers are discriminatory by nature in their hiring practices. Many times they hire people they feel represent their brand, which in most cases are young attractive Caucasians.

I'm not saying retailers should hire minorities just for the sake of equality, but I think young attractive Asians, blacks, and hispanics that are qualified should have a place in high end retail just as much as whites.

In Apple's case most Apple stores in my area are very diverse and I think it's a beautiful thing. People of all ages and colors representing the products is wonderful.
post #72 of 123
Apple or no Apple, retail is still retail--anyone who has worked retail knows that.

I take no side in this except to say that this could have happened anywhere; the fact that it's apple makes no difference.
post #73 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post

And whites very often find light-skinned blacks less intimidating or threatening than dark-skinned blacks, and lighter-skinned blacks are often considered more beautiful by whites, because they have "whiter" features.

Please refrain from making your stereotypical statements about white people without clarifying them with "...in America." Us Canadians don't want to be lumped in with this madness.
post #74 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

Most high end retailers are discriminatory by nature in their hiring practices.

Really? I didn't know that. Do you have some data that supports this claim or is this merely your observation and perception of what's happening in "most high end retailers?"

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #75 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

In english next time okay. Try to string together a cogent argument and a intelligent sentence. Have your mommy help you next time.

Oh just jump you ate good at that
post #76 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by starwarrior View Post

Not so. They will not even hire me- a seventy year old Indian who has been a fanboy since 1976.

Lol, you are nasty!
post #77 of 123
Let this run it's course in the courtroom. None of us were there, so it would be foolish to offer an opinion.

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post #78 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by smack416 View Post

Please refrain from making your stereotypical statements about white people without clarifying them with "...in America." Us Canadians don't want to be lumped in with this madness.

hear hear.

Seriously, if any of you Yanks want to find out what it's like to live without racial prejudice, move up here to Canada. We've had higher immigration rates than you for 30 years or more and the whites have long since ceased being a significant majority in many urban areas. There are very few people who are pure anything anymore.

Where I live 40 years ago *everyone* was white (and I mean *everyone*), now the whites are a minority in the under 20 crowd, everyone is peacefully integrated and I haven't heard a racist comment or seen a racist act for at least twenty years now.

If you go outside of the cities, of course you are twenty years in the past and the white culture still rules supreme but that' true of the boonies in any country. That's why people move out of cities in the first place, to get back to the past.
post #79 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalpin View Post

I posted a link to it. It's 47% black, 45% white. So Apple's 8% ratio is way off.

So, you'd be someone who thinks that the NBA court's ethnic ratio is waaaaaaay off?
post #80 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post


Seriously, if any of you Yanks want to find out what it's like to live without racial prejudice, move up here to Canada.

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