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post #41 of 66
7/14/11 at 4:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And alcohol is harmful. Maybe you're drunk now the way you sound.

Outlawing alcohol is harmful.

And... (fill in the blank).

You sound like a real schmuck! With this analogy of yours.
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post #42 of 66
7/14/11 at 5:41pm
Listen, you started with the personal attacks, Marvin. Please don't continue with them. My point is that LSD is far less dangerous than alcohol. The only valid counterpoint made was made by SDW with his "two hit lunch" quip. If you can show that LSD is more dangerous than alcohol, or why one should be illegal and one should not, then please do.

I strongly believe the opposite of the 'gateway drug' theory. If you make the chemically safe drugs legal, people will not turn to illegal drugs. Meanwhile, if all recreational drugs (beside alcohol nicotine and caffeine) are illegal, then smoking pot is illegal, and snorting coke is illegal, so if you're going to break the law anyway... then what's the difference? If people were allowed to smoke pot and very occasionally drop acid or an E, then fewer people would be smoking crack and snorting coke.
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post #43 of 66
7/14/11 at 8:01pm
I have no problemwitht legalizing drugs... But...

How do you keep people from driving under the influence? ... Alcohol is quickly processed out of the body, and therefore we can get an accurate idea of what's IN a persons system via blood or breath testing.

THC (Marijuana) sticks around In your body for many days after the effects have gone away. PCP is the same way... LSD I'm not familiar with, cocaine is seen for a couple days after it's use. There are also a variety of medications and even some foods that will trigger positive tests using current techniques.

I would argue that until we have accurate and reliable ways of determining a persons level of influence, that society has proven itself incapable of using drugs (and alcohol) responsibly.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #44 of 66
7/14/11 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I have no problemwitht legalizing drugs... But...

How do you keep people from driving under the influence? ... Alcohol is quickly processed out of the body, and therefore we can get an accurate idea of what's IN a persons system via blood or breath testing.

THC (Marijuana) sticks around In your body for many days after the effects have gone away. PCP is the same way... LSD I'm not familiar with, cocaine is seen for a couple days after it's use. There are also a variety of medications and even some foods that will trigger positive tests using current techniques.

I would argue that until we have accurate and reliable ways of determining a persons level of influence, that society has proven itself incapable of using drugs (and alcohol) responsibly.

Agreed.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #45 of 66
7/15/11 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Its Infantile Hour with SDW2001, yet again, episode 256e.

The plan to invade Afghanistan prior to 9/11 was not "secret". Even the fucking BBC, a media company funded by the UK Government, reported this intent.

MSNBC, the well known crypto-communist conspiracy theorist media conglomerate, also reported that Afghanistan was in the sights of the Bush Administration well before 9/11.

So having established that 9/11 was NOT the reason to invade Afghanistan.. but was hard-sold as the justification for it... what else are we left with?

Oil and Drugs. The two biggest global money spinners... outside of warmongering.


Did I claim it was a secret plan that involved 9/11? Of course not. I understand there was a plan in place. My point is that the invasion was not for the purpose of increasing drug production in any sense. That is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I have no problemwitht legalizing drugs... But...

How do you keep people from driving under the influence? ... Alcohol is quickly processed out of the body, and therefore we can get an accurate idea of what's IN a persons system via blood or breath testing.

THC (Marijuana) sticks around In your body for many days after the effects have gone away. PCP is the same way... LSD I'm not familiar with, cocaine is seen for a couple days after it's use. There are also a variety of medications and even some foods that will trigger positive tests using current techniques.

I would argue that until we have accurate and reliable ways of determining a persons level of influence, that society has proven itself incapable of using drugs (and alcohol) responsibly.

DUI with drugs and DUI with alcohol are not necessarily the same. Not all reduce reaction time, for example. The law can be written however we want. Perhaps erratic driving + a certain level of drug in the system results in a DUI. And I'm sure that drug levels do not remain constant for days upon days.

I again think we should legalize use of pretty much everything. What we should do is pour resources into treatment, prevention, etc. We should only punish sale of these items, not possession. And I'm not sure that our efforts to stop drugs from getting into the country is having good effects at all. It seems like it's just driving up the street price.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #46 of 66
7/16/11 at 4:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Listen, you started with the personal attacks, Marvin. Please don't continue with them. My point is that LSD is far less dangerous than alcohol. The only valid counterpoint made was made by SDW with his "two hit lunch" quip. If you can show that LSD is more dangerous than alcohol, or why one should be illegal and one should not, then please do.

I strongly believe the opposite of the 'gateway drug' theory. If you make the chemically safe drugs legal, people will not turn to illegal drugs. Meanwhile, if all recreational drugs (beside alcohol nicotine and caffeine) are illegal, then smoking pot is illegal, and snorting coke is illegal, so if you're going to break the law anyway... then what's the difference? If people were allowed to smoke pot and very occasionally drop acid or an E, then fewer people would be smoking crack and snorting coke.

I am sure you heard about the brutal killing of the 8 year old boy in Brooklyn NY 2 days ago. Suffice to say capital punishment is to good for this monster stone him to death right in front of this little innocent boy's parents that is what i would do for punishing him. What would you do Tonton?
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post #47 of 66
7/16/11 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I am sure you heard about the brutal killing of the 8 year old boy in Brooklyn NY 2 days ago. Suffice to say capital punishment is to good for this monster stone him to death right in front of this little innocent boy's parents that is what i would do for punishing him. What would you do Tonton?

tonton, if I may: I would start by taking some immersive grammar lessons.
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post #48 of 66
7/16/11 at 11:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

tonton, if I may: I would start by taking some immersive grammar lessons.

I think you got the wrong bloke there, buddy. You quoted Marvfox. I have excellent grammar, thank you very much.
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post #49 of 66
7/16/11 at 11:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I am sure you heard about the brutal killing of the 8 year old boy in Brooklyn NY 2 days ago. Suffice to say capital punishment is to good for this monster stone him to death right in front of this little innocent boy's parents that is what i would do for punishing him. What would you do Tonton?

Figure out how it happened, and take steps, if at all possible, to reduce the likelihood of something like this happening in the future. This means taking into consideration his mental health.

As far as punishment goes, if he has serious mental illness such as homicidal schizophrenia, as it would appear, he would most likely need to be permanently institutionalized. Perhaps scientists can study this case in order to learn how to recognize and control this disease better. If the evidence shows that he acted with full mental capacity, he should be sentenced to life without parole in a maximum security facility.

What I wouldn't do is to let him off easy, by making his punishment a quick one.
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post #50 of 66
7/16/11 at 11:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I think you got the wrong bloke there, buddy. You quoted Marvfox. I have excellent grammar, thank you very much.

He was offering to answer for you, not answering you directly.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #51 of 66
7/17/11 at 12:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

He was offering to answer for you, not answering you directly.

You're right!
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post #52 of 66
7/17/11 at 1:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

...he should be sentenced to life without parole ...

Doesn't that seem like a waste of resources?... If you're just gonna keep him locked up forever, put him out of our misery and be done with it.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #53 of 66
7/17/11 at 3:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Doesn't that seem like a waste of resources?... If you're just gonna keep him locked up forever, put him out of our misery and be done with it.

Can't we put convicts to work like back in the day...? Heck, they even helped build an entire country (see: Australia).
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post #54 of 66
7/17/11 at 5:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Doesn't that seem like a waste of resources?... If you're just gonna keep him locked up forever, put him out of our misery and be done with it.

That's just it. "Put him out of his misery," assuming he's acting with full mental ability, is too good for him. Let him wallow in his misery. Despite the Club Med you think US prison is, it's still a horrific experience, day after day of it, especially in the type of prison Mr. Aron would be sentenced to.

And then there's the "waste of resources remark".

As mentioned before, court costs for the death penalty are higher than the costs of keeping him alive in his misery until the end of his days. One link here lists the average cost of keeping a prisoner on death row as $1M per year. The spirit of the law in the United States precludes us from doing a China and getting it all over with in a week and billing the convict's family for the bullet. Is that something you want to change?

http://www.google.com.hk/search?q=%2...ient=firefox-a
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post #55 of 66
7/17/11 at 5:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Figure out how it happened, and take steps, if at all possible, to reduce the likelihood of something like this happening in the future. This means taking into consideration his mental health.

As far as punishment goes, if he has serious mental illness such as homicidal schizophrenia, as it would appear, he would most likely need to be permanently institutionalized. Perhaps scientists can study this case in order to learn how to recognize and control this disease better. If the evidence shows that he acted with full mental capacity, he should be sentenced to life without parole in a maximum security facility.

What I wouldn't do is to let him off easy, by making his punishment a quick one.

Why should the U.S. taxpayer pay for this monster to be locked up in some mental hospital for years where as killing him rapidly would save everyone money and heartaches.The justice system is horrendous in the states and should be looked into asap.
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post #56 of 66
7/17/11 at 7:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I think you got the wrong bloke there, buddy. You quoted Marvfox. I have excellent grammar, thank you very much.

I was responding for you after asking permission to do so.
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post #57 of 66
7/19/11 at 3:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Why should the U.S. taxpayer pay for this monster to be locked up in some mental hospital for years where as killing him rapidly would save everyone money and heartaches.The justice system is horrendous in the states and should be looked into asap.

1. So that we can learn how better to control, avoid or limit monsters like this.

2. Because once you take away due process from one person, you have taken it away from every person.
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post #58 of 66
7/19/11 at 4:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

1. So that we can learn how better to control, avoid or limit monsters like this.

2. Because once you take away due process from one person, you have taken it away from every person.

Avoid monsters like this is to get rid of them when this horrendous crime happens to a innocent 8 year old child.What would you do if this was your child thankfully not?
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post #59 of 66
7/19/11 at 5:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Avoid monsters like this is to get rid of them when this horrendous crime happens to a innocent 8 year old child.What would you do if this was your child thankfully not?

I honestly would do as much as possible within my power to help us to learn how best to avoid this happening in the future. I would also prefer that the bastard rot in jail than be let off easy with a quick death.

It sounds like you want revenge so much, you're neglecting reason.

Let me ask you a rhetorical question. What if by keeping this man alive we could learn all we need to learn to make sure this never happens again? Would you still want him killed? Probably not. Now what if we could reduce this sort of thing by 50 percent? Would you still want him killed? 10 percent? What if by keeping this alive we could be sure that at least one less innocent child would die? What if we couldn't be sure, but there's a chance?

At exactly what point does your thirst for revenge supersede your interest in scientific knowledge about why and how this happened in the first place?

And then there's my point that death is the easy way out. Imagine if we killed every psycho murderer or rapist with a bullet to the head within an hour of their being sentenced? What behavior might you expect a psycho who happens to be suicidal to take? He wants to die in the first place, right? So he goes off and kills a dozen people he hates and then rapes a couple of girls and boys for good measure simply because he always wanted to do that. After all, in the end he gets exactly what he wants. Death.

Let's not give them death. There's quite a strong chance that that's what they want.
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post #60 of 66
7/19/11 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

...with a bullet to the head within an hour of their being sentenced...

I haven't seen ANYone suggest that. I think everyone should get due process... but there's no reason that even multiple appeals should take more than several years.
An efficient appeals process... If he's still guilty, then kill him.

The cost thing is misleading as well... because even if he's NOT facing the death penalty, he's still filing appeal after appeal and ringing up huge legal costs to the system. "No possibility of parole" is just a waste of money... feed house and care for these people for 30...40...50 years?... all the while they are filing appeals and have access to an education they'll never be able to use??? ... Go ahead and convince me that's cheaper than a bullet to the head after 5 years worth of appeals.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #61 of 66
7/20/11 at 4:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I honestly would do as much as possible within my power to help us to learn how best to avoid this happening in the future. I would also prefer that the bastard rot in jail than be let off easy with a quick death.

It sounds like you want revenge so much, you're neglecting reason.

Let me ask you a rhetorical question. What if by keeping this man alive we could learn all we need to learn to make sure this never happens again? Would you still want him killed? Probably not. Now what if we could reduce this sort of thing by 50 percent? Would you still want him killed? 10 percent? What if by keeping this alive we could be sure that at least one less innocent child would die? What if we couldn't be sure, but there's a chance?

At exactly what point does your thirst for revenge supersede your interest in scientific knowledge about why and how this happened in the first place?

And then there's my point that death is the easy way out. Imagine if we killed every psycho murderer or rapist with a bullet to the head within an hour of their being sentenced? What behavior might you expect a psycho who happens to be suicidal to take? He wants to die in the first place, right? So he goes off and kills a dozen people he hates and then rapes a couple of girls and boys for good measure simply because he always wanted to do that. After all, in the end he gets exactly what he wants. Death.

Let's not give them death. There's quite a strong chance that that's what they want.

Let them rot to death in jails but unfortunately the cost of keeping these animals in prisons costs thousands of dollars every year to the average taxpayer.Perhaps send them to an desolate island and let them rot until they die there like in the movie Pappilion. The Devils Island I mean.
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post #62 of 66
7/20/11 at 8:08am
(edit: nevermind)
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post #63 of 66
7/22/11 at 4:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

(edit: nevermind)

Why are you afraid to respond back to me? Everyone has an opinion in life.
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post #64 of 66
7/22/11 at 4:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Why are you afraid to respond back to me? Everyone has an opinion in life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Let them rot to death in jails but unfortunately the cost of keeping these animals in prisons costs thousands of dollars every year to the average taxpayer.Perhaps send them to an desolate island and let them rot until they die there like in the movie Pappilion. The Devils Island I mean.

I was just going to raise the point of the history of Australia again, then got sidetracked somehow. I think putting convicts to work somehow, somewhere would be the best.

It's not the best system we have but criminals, whether innocent or guilty, nonetheless convicted, need to be separated firstly. Secondly a lot are clearly mentally not sound. Treatments and studying them can help. Thirdly, I know it ain't the British Empire but how can we put them to work? In a humane fashion, not leaving them purely to fend for themselves or create a tribe of psychos or something.

But there will always be "monsters". Killing them won't prevent more. Studying them might. What is pure evil? Either you believe it's the work of the devil or that they simply do not function in what we consider any kind of normal or moral fashion. That said I have not personally been affected by any heinous crime so that's my stance right now.
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post #65 of 66
7/22/11 at 4:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Why are you afraid to respond back to me? Everyone has an opinion in life.

Not afraid, I got a six-month consulting contract and I only just finished my 1st week. Was kind of struggling mid-week, not so much the work but the early hours... As mentioned I'm leaving for Australia for several months after the contract. Which is why I've been thinking about Australia and their convict history.

Also there's been a helluva lot of threads to follow on AppleInsider this past week... Murdoch scandal, Apple earnings, news and products, fake China store etc.
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post #66 of 66
7/23/11 at 4:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Not afraid, I got a six-month consulting contract and I only just finished my 1st week. Was kind of struggling mid-week, not so much the work but the early hours... As mentioned I'm leaving for Australia for several months after the contract. Which is why I've been thinking about Australia and their convict history.

Also there's been a helluva lot of threads to follow on AppleInsider this past week... Murdoch scandal, Apple earnings, news and products, fake China store etc.

Sorry about losing my cool.I understand now thanks. marv
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