Religious Absurdity Vol 1: "I'm not gay. Go ahead, measure my asshole."

Let them measure my anus and see if it is dilated.

Originally Posted by NoahJ

And like it or not, a great deal comes from white people, is there fault in pointing that out?

And Like it or not, a great deal comes from American People, is there fault in pointing that out?

And Like it or not, a great deal come from people posting on the internet, is there fault in pointing that out?

Should I go on?

Originally Posted by jazzguru

Define real.

Critics of the Latter Day Saint movement—from late nineteenth-century clergymen to Mark Twain to modern agnostics, evangelical Christians, and Mormons who have been disciplined by the LDS Church—argue that the testimonies of the witnesses cannot be taken at face value.

According to Grant Palmer, the Book of Mormon witnesses had a "nineteenth-century magical mindset" rather than "a rationalist perspective." They believed in what was called "second sight. Traditionally, this included the ability to see spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills and elsewhere."[7] A number of the witnesses possessed and used seer stones; Oliver Cowdery was a rodsman.[8] As Tufts University professor John L. Brooke has observed, many of the earliest Mormons were "very much attuned to the supernatural powers of witchcraft."[9] "Far removed from our own modern empiricism, the world view of the witnesses is difficult for us to grasp," and thus it is less impressive that "three signatories to the Book of Mormon saw and heard an angel."[10]

All the witnesses were family, close friends, or financial backers of Joseph Smith. Cowdery, Page, and the five Whitmers were related by marriage.[11] Mark Twain later joked, "I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified."[12]

Martin Harris was said to have stated that the Eight Witnesses never saw the plates, and "hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it."[13] Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the Book of Mormon even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he "seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience."[14]

In Doctrine and Covenants 5: 11-14, revealed to Joseph Smith in March 1829, the Three Witnesses are told that they will be given power to see the golden plates, "to behold and view these things...and to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation." In 2 Nephi 27:13, a translation completed in the late spring or early summer of the same year, the Three are told that "none other...shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God," thus allowing for the inclusion of the Eight Witnesses.[15]

Joseph Smith later impugned the integrity of at least four of the Witnesses before they left or were expelled from the Church: "Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them."[16]

After Smith's death, James Strang, claiming to be Smith's chosen successor, also produced buried plates and the testimony of eleven witnesses to their authenticity. All living witnesses to the Book of Mormon (except possibly Cowdery)—three of the Whitmers, Martin Harris, and Hiram Page—accepted at least briefly Strang's "leadership, angelic call, metal plates, and his translation of these plates as authentic."[17]

Years later, Mormon leader Brigham Young said that some "witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel."[18]

All the witnesses were family, close friends, or financial backers of Joseph Smith. Cowdery, Page, and the five Whitmers were related by marriage.[11] Mark Twain later joked, "I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified."[12]

Originally Posted by jazzguru

Think about this for a minute, BR. Would you show such things to people you didn't trust?

And Mark Twain overlooks the fact that most of these men later left the church and were at odds with Joseph Smith for various reasons. What possible "vested interests" could they have had to not rescind their statements then?

After Smith's death, James Strang, claiming to be Smith's chosen successor, also produced buried plates and the testimony of eleven witnesses to their authenticity. All living witnesses to the Book of Mormon (except possibly Cowdery)three of the Whitmers, Martin Harris, and Hiram Pageaccepted at least briefly Strang's "leadership, angelic call, metal plates, and his translation of these plates as authentic."[17]