or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Microsoft shoots down Windows Phone 7 tablet hopes, says tablets are PCs
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Microsoft shoots down Windows Phone 7 tablet hopes, says tablets are PCs

post #1 of 91
Thread Starter 
Claiming that tablets should be considered personal computers rather than new age mobile devices, Microsoft on Tuesday again dashed hopes of tablets running the company's new mobile operating system, Windows Phone 7 OS.

Speaking at Microsoft's Worldwide Partners Conference, Windows Phone president Andy Lees argued that consumers want people to be able to do the sort of things they do on a PC on a tablet.

"We view a tablet as a PC," he said.

As such, Lees maintained that using the OS Microsoft built for phones on a tablet would be "in conflict" with its belief in having the complete power of a PC on any design.

A few years back, virtually every tablet on the market ran some flavor of Windows. That quickly changed with the advent of the iPad in 2010, which took just 9 months to eclipse a lifetime of prior Windows Tablet PC's sales. Since then, Windows-based tablets have continued to plummet, and now account for a meager 1 percent or less of the overall market, according to market research firm IDC.

During his keynote speech, Lees instead turned his focus to Windows 8 OS and its expected networking and printing support enhancements, which he expects will drive adoption of Windows tablets moving forward, adding that the software will run on systems on a chip designs.

In time, he expects that PCs, tablets and phones will come together into a unified ecosystem. Lees' remarks echo comments made by CEO Steve Ballmer earlier this year promising that "Windows will be everywhere on every device without compromise."

Windows 8, expected to launch sometime in 2012, will be the only tablet OS issued by Microsoft. It is also suspected that when the next incarnation is released, Windows Phone 7 will be faded out and replaced completely by Windows 8. Ballmer admitted on Monday that sales of Windows Phone 7 have gone from "very small to very small," though he believes the company will make "a lot of progress" in the smartphone market going forward.

At first glance, Microsoft's next-generation operating system looks very similar to the recently released phone platform, especially given the included touch-centric interface.

Windows 8 was announced by Mike Angiulo, corporate vice president of Windows Planning, Hardware and PC Ecosystem at Microsoft, during a technical demonstration in early June this year. In a move seen as an attempt to break into the tablet market, the company has designed the new OS to run on ARM-based architectures in addition x86.

According to Angiulo, Windows 8 aims to make the user experience a natural extension of the device, from the time you turn on your PC through how you interact with the applications you know and love.
post #2 of 91
With that logic, you then must change the 20 million Macs sold each year and move that upwards towards 60 Million.

Now that 350 Million PCs next to 60 Million Macs looks let dominate.

By next year the iPad will probably be pushing the total Macs upwards towards 90 - 100 million.

Still not worried?
post #3 of 91
I think this has been clear since they said that Windows 8 would run on ARM processors, and have the option of a Windows Phone 7-esque front-end.

Of course it is a mistake and error for them to be making. It paints Windows Phone 7 as a dead-end operating system for one, even though in reality it's tablet/touch features will migrate to Windows 8 just like iOS features are entering Mac OS X.

Also Windows 8 on a tablet might be fine, but legacy apps will remain a complete pain to interact with in tablet mode, nevermind Flash, etc, which don't understand touch vs mouse pointer.

Windows 8 tablets will therefore be doomed to be dual-mode devices. Dock them, and they behave like a slow desktop PC. Undock them and they behave like rather bit bloated tablet. At least the same data will be available to both front-ends, and I presume that Office will provide a tablet UI as well as a desktop UI... it will, won't it? I mean, iWork has done that for a year...
post #4 of 91
"virtually ever tablet"

Typo - should be virtually every tablet
post #5 of 91
Actually many M$ bashers have grabbed a hold of this story and expounded the usual rants. Point is that he is correct. How long did we have to listen to Google/pundits repeatedly say that Android 2.x was NOT a tablet OS. There is obviously a difference between the user experience on a tablet and a phone. Since Apple designed it right from the get-go, they could leverage effectively a single OS on both platforms. Google and M$ didn't share that same foresight. If anything else, M$ is doing the right thing based on what Google went through. Don't get side tracked by the press/vocal minority. Concentrate on the bigger picture because reactive answers will be trounced soundly and are a non-starter.

"Tablets are PC's", well, that's marketing speak, and why not? Everyone (at least Apple fans) seem to be thinking "oh, here they go again, trying to elevate tablets as touch PC's", when, if you listen carefully, what they're talking about is really migrating PC's (at least the OS) closer to tablets. Which, if you look at Apple with Lion, they are not alone in doing.
post #6 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

With that logic, you then must change the 20 million Macs sold each year and move that upwards towards 60 Million.

That's priceless - by their own definitions their PC marketshare is decimated.
post #7 of 91
So Ballmer says Tablets are PC's now... This guy can contradict himself more.... He went saying the competition (Apple) was able to sell 20 million computer and they 350millions but he didn't add the iPad to those numbers...

He is funny as hell
post #8 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

So Ballmer says Tablets are PC's now... This guy can contradict himself more.... He went saying the competition (Apple) was able to sell 20 million computer and they 350millions but he didn't add the iPad to those numbers...

He is funny as hell

Agreed.

But on the other hand, the iPad is the paradigm for the successor to the PC. It serves the same purpose and function that PCs did for the vast majority of casual users, but does it easier and better. PC's will continue to exist for those who need a tool. For those who need an appliance, it will be the iPad or one of those also-rans once they get something close to parity.

So, I guess in a way they are PCs, evolved.
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
Reply
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
Reply
post #9 of 91
I love it when Bomber goes into "I own the world and everyone should listen to me" sales mode... He REALLY shows the world what an A**HOLE he is and has been for so many years..

The sooner the Fin's drop him off a building into a snow heap, the better.... AND, now that his new toy Skype has sent out a survey to all of it's 'users' a survey asking what SMS and IM services you use, does this mean that Bomber and his flock of deaf-monkey hacks is trying to get Skype into the IM business?? WHY??

What a clown show.....
post #10 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitWrangler View Post

"Tablets are PC's", well, that's marketing speak, and why not? Everyone (at least Apple fans) seem to be thinking "oh, here they go again, trying to elevate tablets as touch PC's", when, if you listen carefully, what they're talking about is really migrating PC's (at least the OS) closer to tablets. Which, if you look at Apple with Lion, they are not alone in doing.

Listen to this poster. There's truth in there.

With Lion and iOS 5 Apple is tying to blur the lines between a Mac and an iOS device. They just aren't using the same words as Microsoft. This is the way the industry seems to be headed.
post #11 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

So Ballmer says Tablets are PC's now...

Actually, he's said that consistently in the past.

However, that said

Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

This guy can contradict himself more.... He went saying the competition (Apple) was able to sell 20 million computer and they 350millions but he didn't add the iPad to those numbers...

He does seem to conveniently ignore factoring in the iPad when counting Apple's PC sales!

Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post

He is funny as hell

You mean funny looking!
post #12 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitWrangler View Post

Actually many M$ bashers have grabbed a hold of this story and expounded the usual rants. Point is that he is correct.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Depending on which figures you use, somewhere around 60-90% of tablets sold in the world run iOS and most of the rest run Android - so they're NOT running a PC operating system the way Microsoft is defining it.

Not to mention, of course, that when the only tablets available ran Windows, they hardly sold at all, but with the advent of the iPad and Android tablets, the market has taken off.

The market has clearly decided that they don't want (in general) a full-blown PC operating system on a tablet. Looks like Microsoft blew it again. They think that EVERYTHING is a PC - and they're wrong.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #13 of 91
Will windows 7 phones be able to upgrade to windows 8?

If not, why would anyone in their right mind buy one?

Apple has seen fit to include prior year models in their OS upgrades, I cannot see why they can't do the same with a Windows phone...
I've been trying to come up with a lifestyle that doesn't require my presence.
Reply
I've been trying to come up with a lifestyle that doesn't require my presence.
Reply
post #14 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitWrangler View Post

"Tablets are PC's", well, that's marketing speak, and why not? Everyone (at least Apple fans) seem to be thinking "oh, here they go again, trying to elevate tablets as touch PC's", when, if you listen carefully, what they're talking about is really migrating PC's (at least the OS) closer to tablets. Which, if you look at Apple with Lion, they are not alone in doing.

Actually, Apple fans were among the first to try elevating tablets as PCs. There were several articles on AI claiming "Apple would be number x, and have y percent marketshare If iPads were counted as PCs..." For example:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...r_in_2012.html

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles..._included.html

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ufacturer.html

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...us_market.html


And since those numbers favor Apple, the Apple fans of course agreed with the "marketing speak" even though others (myself included) objected to this play on words. But if Microsoft is now starting to play this game, then sure, let's all start calling an iPad a PC.
post #15 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You couldn't be more wrong.

Depending on which figures you use, somewhere around 60-90% of tablets sold in the world run iOS and most of the rest run Android - so they're NOT running a PC operating system the way Microsoft is defining it.

Not to mention, of course, that when the only tablets available ran Windows, they hardly sold at all, but with the advent of the iPad and Android tablets, the market has taken off.

The market has clearly decided that they don't want (in general) a full-blown PC operating system on a tablet. Looks like Microsoft blew it again. They think that EVERYTHING is a PC - and they're wrong.

You obviously didn't read the rest of my post. Heck, you mention the key point yourself "the way Microsoft is defining it". My argument is that Microsoft is changing it's definition while keeping the message the same. Pretty smart actually. They are correct, the line between PC/tablet is blurring. Tablets are getting more PC type features, PC's are borrowing from tablet interfaces, as both start interacting more, they'll converge even faster.

You are also missing a key point in Apple's success. The fact is that people don't give a flying flip whether or not the tablet's OS is a "full blown PC OS" or not, folks want a very responsive and productive user experience. Apple lives on the fact that they don't want folks to think about the mechanisms, focus on the experience. iOS _is_ a full blown PC operating system. Do you remember when the iPhone was first introduced? "It runs OSX" Steve said proudly. Don't hear that anymore right? So who really cares now?

Quote me on this, in 4 years the terms PC and tablet will refer only to form factor, and NOT the capabilities of the systems with regards to their OS's. So in that regard, M$ is correct. Everything will be a "personal computing device" in one of four (at least) form factors. Desktop, laptop, tablet, pocket (e.g. iphone, ipod touch). And under the covers, they'll all be running the same base OS per manufacturer (e.g. Apple/OSX, HP/WebOS, RIM/QNX, M$/Win8, etc).
post #16 of 91
The whole idea of an 'OS' is becoming irrelevant... Sure, you need some API's and stuff behind the scenes, but the OS part of iOS is nearly invisible to the end user. Old concepts like 'directory and file management' are being eclipsed with unified storage layers that let you view your data in any abstract way you want.

The latest iterations of Windows and OSX are polishing some UI aspects, but the real leap is in sync, cloud, whatever you want to call it - taking a unified storage system and making it device and location independent...

When programs generally sucked, the hobbyist found their joy in the latest and greatest OS update and all the new features that application programmers were too dumb to build. Now, the API foundations are laid for some truly crazy applications to be built in fairly short order... and again - the OS 'version' becomes irrelevant.
post #17 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

That's priceless - by their own definitions their PC marketshare is decimated.

No, I don't think so. In the mind of Ballmer there is a distinction between tablet PCs (which will run some version of Windows) and what he has called "media tablets" like the iPad and Android tablets. It is a convenient splitting of hairs for the express purpose of NOT having their PC marketshare decimated.
post #18 of 91
deleted
post #19 of 91
I agree that tablets should be considered PCs, but they're not desktop PCs. Therefore, why does it make any sense to shoehorn a desktop OS into one? This reads more as a dogmatic thing than a desire to cater to the market.
post #20 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitWrangler View Post

Actually many M$ bashers have grabbed a hold of this story and expounded the usual rants. Point is that he is correct. How long did we have to listen to Google/pundits repeatedly say that Android 2.x was NOT a tablet OS. There is obviously a difference between the user experience on a tablet and a phone. Since Apple designed it right from the get-go, they could leverage effectively a single OS on both platforms. Google and M$ didn't share that same foresight. If anything else, M$ is doing the right thing based on what Google went through. Don't get side tracked by the press/vocal minority. Concentrate on the bigger picture because reactive answers will be trounced soundly and are a non-starter.

"Tablets are PC's", well, that's marketing speak, and why not? Everyone (at least Apple fans) seem to be thinking "oh, here they go again, trying to elevate tablets as touch PC's", when, if you listen carefully, what they're talking about is really migrating PC's (at least the OS) closer to tablets. Which, if you look at Apple with Lion, they are not alone in doing.

What Ballmer means by "every tablet is a PC" is "every tablet is Windows machine". This is clear with them adding a touch layer to Windows 8 instead of new dedicated tablet OS based on WP7 technology.
post #21 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

... Ballmer admitted on Monday that sales of Windows Phone 7 have gone from "very small to very small," though he believes the company will make "a lot of progress" in the smartphone market going forward. ...

Ballmer is hoping that Microsoft's smartphone hardware b!tch, Nokia, will release a magical iPhone-killer. Good luck with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

... It is also suspected that when the next incarnation is released, Windows Phone 7 will be faded out and replaced completely by Windows 8. ...

This is the same thing Microsoft did to Windows Mobile 6.x. They killed the old unsuccessful platform, then dumped a new and totally incompatible platform (WP7) onto the market. Developers had to start from zero since WP7 had nothing in common with WinMob. Users were left to twist in the wind with no upgrade path and no way to migrate their data from WinMob to WP7.

Why did that happen? It happened because Microsoft has zero ability to plan the evolution of their platforms. This incompetence stems from having zero concept of what they want their users to be doing 5 and 10 and 20 years from now. Which subsequently leads to zero concept of the incremental changes needed to get themselves, their developers, and their users to those goals. So, when Microsoft has run out of useless features to pile on to a platform instead of usefully evolving it, they just kill it off and start from scratch. Zero ability to plan ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

... "Windows will be everywhere on every device without compromise." ...

See? No new ideas. Ever.

Sent from my iPhone Simulator

Reply

Sent from my iPhone Simulator

Reply
post #22 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Windows 8, expected to launch sometime in 2012, will be the only tablet OS issued by Microsoft. It is also suspected that when the next incarnation is released, Windows Phone 7 will be faded out and replaced completely by Windows 8. Ballmer admitted on Monday that sales of Windows Phone 7 have gone from "very small to very small," though he believes the company will make "a lot of progress" in the smartphone market going forward.

Wait does this mean they implied that they are EOL Windows Phone 7? WP7 = Kin 2?
Good luck getting developers to write apps for it...

I hope Nokia got the memo...
post #23 of 91
deleted
post #24 of 91
Check out this article by Jean-Louis Gassee on Microsoft's evolving
stance on tablets.
post #25 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

A little perspective:



http://pewinternet.org/Reports/2011/...ts/Report.aspx

That'll change.
post #26 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

Ballmer is hoping that Microsoft's smartphone hardware b!tch, Nokia, will release a magical iPhone-killer. Good luck with that.

A lot of people here in Europe will buy a Nokia just because it is a Nokia. So if it isn't that bad people will buy it in hordes. They are known for their extremely high quality hardware products they used to make in the 90s. (No kidding my 13 year old Nokia still works ).
post #27 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

No, I don't think so. In the mind of Ballmer there is a distinction between tablet PCs (which will run some version of Windows) and what he has called "media tablets" like the iPad and Android tablets. It is a convenient splitting of hairs for the express purpose of NOT having their PC marketshare decimated.

The number one and two competitors to Apple in the Tablet market run Linux with Android and WebOS.
post #28 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

The number one and two competitors to Apple in the Tablet market run Linux with Android and WebOS.

and Ballmer will consider them to be media tablets rather than tablet PCs. He is trying to demean all non-Windows tablets by creating a category for them which does not encroach upon Microsoft's market leadership in PCs. I'm not saying he is correct, just trying to explain MSFT's public statements about tablets.
post #29 of 91
[QUOTE=AppleInsider;1899438]Claiming that tablets should be considered personal computers rather than new age mobile devices, Microsoft on Tuesday again dashed hopes of tablets running the company's new mobile operating system, Windows Phone 7 OS.


SInce when does MajorCrap decide how to catagorize any and all tablets? To paraphrase Lenoard McCoy: " What the WIndows Phone president has said is uninportant, and we do not hear his words".
post #30 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

and Ballmer will consider them to be media tablets rather than tablet PCs. He is trying to demean all non-Windows tablets by creating a category for them which does not encroach upon Microsoft's market leadership in PCs. I'm not saying he is correct, just trying to explain MSFT's public statements about tablets.

That's an interesting take on it, and I think you're right - that's almost certainly what he's hoping to do. Somehow I don't see even the laziest of analysts buying that one though.
post #31 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpcg View Post

A lot of people here in Europe will buy a Nokia just because it is a Nokia. So if it isn't that bad people will buy it in hordes. They are known for their extremely high quality hardware products they used to make in the 90s. (No kidding my 13 year old Nokia still works ).

Why do people insist on saying Nokias are high quality phones?

I have used a broad range of phones including Nokia, I have sold a broad range of phones including Nokia and of all of them Nokia had the worst build quality of them all.

One model they had we sold 32 and had 30 of them come back with the same fault... the screen smashed when the phone was dropped. It was because of poor design. Meanwhile we sold Motorolas and we had farmers come in asking for their phones be looked at because they had the phone in their pocket and subsequently dropped it into the water trough. Worked fine after a couple of days in the hot water cabinet. Meanwhile the Nokias spat the dummy if it so much as looked at water. We even had one guy bring his Motorola in to replace the battery because their one design flaw was the battery clip. Anyway he needed to replace the battery because he had just dropped the phone from 4 stories onto solid concrete. There was nothing wrong with it except the battery clip. Nokias on the other hand produced cracks and some had broken off plastic as a result of phone vs concrete.

They're better these days but they are still poorly built phones.

I have not had any experience that has led me to believe Nokias are a high quality phone.
post #32 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Agreed.

But on the other hand, the iPad is the paradigm for the successor to the PC. It serves the same purpose and function that PCs did for the vast majority of casual users, but does it easier and better. PC's will continue to exist for those who need a tool. For those who need an appliance, it will be the iPad or one of those also-rans once they get something close to parity.

So, I guess in a way they are PCs, evolved.

Tablets are not the successor of computers they compliment them. Think of it like bicycles and automobiles your bicycle can get you to point a to b but you want rely on it to replace your car.
post #33 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitWrangler View Post

"Tablets are PC's", well, that's marketing speak, and why not? Everyone (at least Apple fans) seem to be thinking "oh, here they go again, trying to elevate tablets as touch PC's", when, if you listen carefully, what they're talking about is really migrating PC's (at least the OS) closer to tablets. Which, if you look at Apple with Lion, they are not alone in doing.

Yes, you can find that in there if you listen carefully, I agree. But the directly-stated point remains true as well: they’re still trying to elevate tablets as touch PCs! They really ARE talking about tablets, not only about the OS for conventional keyboard-and-screen PCs.

As for them doing the same thing as Lion... well, we’ll see! Regardless, Microsoft still needs a real tablet platform as well, though they don’t realize it yet.
post #34 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

That's priceless - by their own definitions their PC marketshare is decimated.

Microsoft never ceases to amaze me... with their stupidity. How is this company still raking in billions of dollars each quarter? Oh, I forgot, through the drug that most of the world is dependent on ie. cheapo crap PCs running a crap OS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jpcg View Post

Wait does this mean they implied that they are EOL Windows Phone 7? WP7 = Kin 2?
Good luck getting developers to write apps for it...

I hope Nokia got the memo...

Fantastic, isn't it. Microsoft just told the world that Nokia is basing it's future on something that has no future.
post #35 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple v. Samsung View Post

Tablets are not the successor of computers they compliment them. Think of it like bicycles and automobiles your bicycle can get you to point a to b but you want rely on it to replace your car.

At this stage tablets are like motorbikes and PCs trucks. In a few years the motorbike will be good enough to be a good compact car.
post #36 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple v. Samsung View Post

Tablets are not the successor of computers they compliment them. Think of it like bicycles and automobiles your bicycle can get you to point a to b but you want rely on it to replace your car.

Can't a successor compliment its predecessor? Anyway, I take your point partially. I should have been more specific. The tablet is more likely to replace the laptop than the desktop for most people. At least it has for me. I have to Mac laptops stacked on the table behind me that I haven't used in months. The iPad is used everyday in place of them. My iMac does all the heavy lifting.
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
Reply
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
Reply
post #37 of 91
We need to at least respect Microsoft for having their own philosophy, unlike some other company that just do whatever Apple does.
post #38 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

A little perspective:



http://pewinternet.org/Reports/2011/...ts/Report.aspx

You have a funny definition of perspective which is not a term I'd apply to a snapshot of one point in time.

Compare that to where tablet sales were 2 years ago. Now that's perspective.
post #39 of 91
Wow. Just wow.

10 years of utter failure at "windows everywhere" - total embarrassment in mobile by that no-experience-in-the-market upstart Apple... and yet they have learned nothing?

What's that definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing over and expecting a different result?
post #40 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

Check out this article by Jean-Louis Gassee on Microsoft's evolving
stance on tablets.

I've always like him. Although I was a fan of Be at the time, I do think NeXT was the right move for Apple (I wish I still had my NeVR t-shirt from MacUser!) and I think even Jean-Louis admits now Apple made the right decision. Thanks for reminding me of his blog - I hadn't bookmarked it previously, but I have now!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Microsoft shoots down Windows Phone 7 tablet hopes, says tablets are PCs