Developer frustrated that Apple grants Game Center support to pirated iOS apps - Page 2

That's a reasonable request - and should be submitted to Apple as an Enhancement Request rather than making a big public stink about how badly Apple is treating them.

Apple does listen to developers and is happy to hear ideas for improvements. If it really can be done without too much difficulty and doesn't cause any down side, then Apple is likely to adopt it. OTOH, if it causes negative consequences, they might not. But the developer is far more likely to find out by contacting Apple and filling out an ER than via a public complaint.


Possibly, but I'm not sure you can tell if your app is pirated.

Apple's policies allow for 5 devices (or is it 10?) to download the same app from one purchase. Each of them has a unique GameCenter ID. Telling which ones are purchased isn't that trivial.


So send in an enhancement request.


You don't. You're allowed to buy it once and use it on multiple devices. Which makes the "there are xxx users but only YYY people purchased my app" complaints somewhat disingenuous.

Just because jailbreaking your iOS device is legal doesn't mean Apple can't continue to play a cat and mouse game to prevent their devices from being jailbroken. By jailbreaking being legal, it's just syaing that Apple can't go after someone for releasing a method to jailbreak your iOS device or having a jailbroken iOS Device. Apple can use the "technical tool" to prevent jailbreaking.

Sadly, as a developer, I would rather people be locked into iOS rather than iOS being open through a jailbreak. I've first hand had apps stolen from me (even cheap $0.99 ones), and I know it sucks to feel like you're getting nothing for your work.

This btw is the answer. Apparently this DEV did not understand what he was signing up for. I would guess less then one of ten copies he suspects is pirated actually is. Would have been cool if some thought and knowledge about how iOS works would have found its way into the story.

Yeh, there are various exploits that have been used to do that, but Apple can be expected to tighten those up, and tighten up use of developer tools for the same purpose. Apple has far more options for controlling security on an un-compromised OS than it does on a cracked one.

You log in to the iTunes (App) Store, it checks your account, and checks your update request against your purchases.

That has nothing to do with an App's DRM implementation.

Thank you. This is also what i like to do with my wife's account andmine. Great that you confirmed it could be done.

BS! There are several legitimate reason to jailbreak our phones.
Themes, changes in the UI, (previously personal hotspots), etc.

I hate the idea of piracy and think people who steal games should be severly punished! At the same time I am amused that people care about their high scores this much.

Again...PAY for your damned games you freaking thieves!!

He means the App store App. That app has the ability to cross reference the binary you are trying to update against your Apple ID so check you are a valid purchaser of that app. This relies on phoning home as it were to Apple HQ to check you account history and all that. That is totally different to just running the App not he OS, which has no access to this sort of information. So, in short, Running the App = OK as the OS doesn't know better. Updating it via iTunes App Store will catch you out and prevent you from updating. But not from running. 2 separate processes.

While there definitely IS piracy, as you point out: The numbers from multiple devices really make it harder to come up with an accurate count.

In my home: iPad2, 2 iPads (kids), my iPhone 4, daughter's iPod touch. Buy a game and install it and if the developer is looking at Game Center IDs, he's seeing 4 GC IDs for one sale. If he looked at device IDs, he'd see 5 devices for 1 sale (80% 'piracy'). iPhone 5 comes out, I pick one up and install there, and if you look at device ID you're thinking there's another pirated copy out there (now 6:1 installs:sales ratio) - but they're all totally legitimate.

It's not that you don't have piracy, but - unlike on the Android side - I don't think it's 90%, at least not if you have reasonable sales numbers. If you have a low sales volume (1000 units), then piracy probably does look much larger, but it's definitely not as black/white as counting Game Center IDs.

Absolutely, they'll continue to do that, but there are limits to how aggressive they can be about it, their current policy of breaking them with each OS revision is clearly limited, tethered jail-breaks particularly are hard to completely stop.

I'd like to know how you settled on that figure. To follow to follow it to it's conclusion either out of each 10 instances of the game installed there is 1 legitimate install, 1 pirate install, and 8 subsequent installs shared between the 2 users on other devices. So the average user, whether legit or not, installs a game on 5 devices? I think not. But then that's why we have opinions I suppose.

A 90% piracy rate seems about right to me. Check out recent PC game give-aways where the dev ran a *pay what you like* system allowing you to legitimately pay 1 penny for an app, and they still reported approx 10 times the number of installs against purchases.

I never said it did. I was illustrating how apple already checks your purchased apps against those installed on your device, so there is nothing stopping them from implementing the same method in the gamecenter app.

I do.

I don't think jailbreaking should be illegal or anything. Far from. I just don't think users should expect any level of official support once you've taken the product off the rails.

That goes for any device from any manufacturer.

The dev should point out how how he does it exactly for interest, but be assured using a clumsy installs V sales method is not it. The dev knows his apps metrics in other ways, and can report back internally without resorting to external stats. Any iOS title can identify it'w own legitimacy internally without ever knowing any details on IDs and sales numbers, and simple splash screen "pirated!", and indeed some do just that.

I'm not sure - I have more than 5 devices total and have never seen a limit. You can only authorize your iTunes account on 5 machines at once (and so presumably your Mac App Store apps), but I don't think that iTunes is keeping track of device ids in the same manner. I'm not aware of any 'un-authorize this iOS device' type of function, so it's possible that iOS app installs aren't limited in install count at all.

But as you say, if the head of the household is buying the app and installing it on the kids devices, it's both legit and will look like piracy from the numbers.

This is an excellent scenario to show how these numbers can be confusing, but as I have tried to point out this is almost certainly not the only method devs have to identify illegitimate copies. That can be done internally within the app regardless of the above ID/device scenarios. We need to stop going down this avenue - the above post perfectly sums up the argument, now we just have to accept that just because it won't work doesn't mean there aren't other ways. This is the straw man argument.

Apple should just block jail broken handsets. Just add them to a blacklist in the same way Microsoft does when it identifies hacked xbox consoles running pirated software. Blacklist the device using the uuid.

And this would lead to the number of registered players being higher than the number of sales. But not by a factor of ten to one, that definitely looks like piracy although it may be impossible to tell to what degree.

But it seems like apple should be able to match device ID with purchase history and know if an app is pirated (at least in the case of apps that use a network connection). Or is that something that is defeated by the jailbreaking and piracy?


Can you tell specifically how many pirated copies? Or whether a given gamecenter user is using a pirated copy? Knowing that piracy exists and knowing which users are doing the pirating aren't the same thing.


I don't see the logic here. If Apple was able to put restrictions on pirated apps, how would that hurt paying customers (because after all, people using bootlegged copies aren't really customers)? What inconvenience would happen to genuine users?

The mp3 situation is different because iTunes can't tell if a copy is illegal. If the app store can tell the difference, why not do what they can against pirated copies?

It will only look like it if they decide that it is a suitable metric to use to identify piracy. If we as a comment community can debunk it in 30 minutes, I feel sure that others have reach this conclusion long ago.

You are right, this won't work. Where we are wrong, is assuming that we think that they think it does. They do not use this method.

...which will be bypassed by a cracker in about the time it takes the programmer to type those 3 lines of code in.

Apple can easily track pirated vs. legit apps by using and tracking the Serial numbers of sold apps.

Yes, it most definitely can. If the app wasn't downloaded from the app store, it most likely was pirated. Apple keeps a record of software that was legitimately purchased or downloaded from its store. It cross references those records when you go to update an app. For instance, if you pirated Angry Birds and the App Store releases an update. Your device catalogs the apps you have installed on your device. When you start up the App Store, any updates for apps you have installed will appear as available on either your device regardless of whether the app has pirated or not.

If you go to update the app using the official store, the App Store will not allow the user to update the app. So, Apple knows when you downloaded the app from the App Store.

Apple could probably easily implement a system where its download records are compared with those of users using Game Center. That doesn't mean Apple blocking out the pirated software was intentional.

exactly!!!

Mine was an estimate. I actually ignored all the numbers in the article because their data was clearly pure garbage.

You also need to factor in returns. Maybe this game sucks and people played it for 30 seconds and returned it in the window. I imagine there are several more cases that we have not even discussed.

I am not the one who published an article that contained absolutely 0 thought or calculations about the content. How can 90% seem right when the one thing we now for certain is that it is very wrong?

Not so!

This is how it all works. The developer codes his app. When done, it's packaged up, compiled, and sent to apple. Apple then approve after several aeons, then they "wrap" the binary with their digital signatures and all the lovely DRM sauce.

A pirated app is merely an app that has gone through the wringer and had the DRM layer removed from the binary. The binary as an executable is exactly the same as it was when the developer sent it away.

In order to remove these "3 lines" or whatever they put in there to detect it, they would have to decompile the code, find it, remove it, recompile it, repackage it and everything. This whilst not impossible is highly unlikely. Why? Because who will have the skills to do this? An iOS developer. Now why would someone with these skills do this, rather than be writing their own apps, and why would they be writing apps if they knew someone would just be doing this to them?

As it stands you can run the same script over any App store purchase and dr-drm in one go. To alter the developers code to requires individual effort for every single binary. Say it takes 10 seconds to de-drm (not unrealistic). You can do hundreds of apps an hour, your only limit is getting your hands on the source, i.e. at least 1 person needs to buy it first and stick it up on a torrent. Now imagine having to reverse engineer each one by hand and do as described previously. Several weeks effort potentially, and 1 de-drmd file at the end.

Trust me, people do not do this, they grab the current script that 1 or 2 people write and maintain, and they perform a generic un-drm without altering any of the underlying code.

So, you would be ok with a scenario where everytime an App launched, you had to input your iTunes account credentials so it could verify that you own the App?

In any case, someone would still find a way to defeat it.

The thing is this: Apple has copy protection and it works very well. You cannot install an App that you have not purchase or downloaded from the AppStore. Their side of the agreement is done.

Jailbreaking and Piracy is outside their responsibility. If you don't want people to pirate your App, it's your responsibility, not Apple's.

Adobe doesn't cry to Microsoft because millions of copies of CS are running on Windows pirated. or Microsoft to HP. They put in their own schemes and try to outsmart the crackers.

This was probably the first app and first version they released. chalk it up to ignorance.

The developer only noticed a discrepancy between the number of purchases and the number of high scores. He did not mention being able to differentiate between real and fake account on the fly. However, he could implement a mechanism to detect such accounts and block the users himself.

What Apple should do is find a way to block any app from running on a jailbroken device, thus removing the draw towards it.

As a matter of fact, as soon as an individual makes use of a jailbreak in order to perform some task that is not in the specific list of tasks for which the DMCA exemption applies, then the user is no longer protected by the DMCA exemption.

Using the jailbreak as a mechanism to install legally obtained 3rd party software is one of the tasks for which the DMCA exemption applies.

Using the jailbreak as a mechanism to install illegally obtained 3rd party software is not covered by the DMCA exemption. So as soon as a jailbreaker uses the jailbroken state of their device to allow them to install a pirated app, Apple will regain standing to attempt to prosecute the individual for alleged violation of the DMCA with respect to Apple's software. The fact that an individual user may have installed pirated software is directly related to Apple's ability to take legal action against individuals who jailbreak their iPhones.

How can we be certain it is wrong? It's only wrong is we assume that we have identified the methods they used and called them out for being wrong. I imagine they have many ways of telling, some of which technically break the rules like phoning home.

Excuse me? WTF kind of accussation is that? Who do you think you are to make such a claim?

That's the most ridiculous thing you've ever posted.

sorry if already posted -

cent 1 - at least now we have some actual data of jailbreak used to pirate software
cent 2 - perhaps the Game Center checks for a valid Apple ID but does not also check that each game is authorized under that account. Could be a simple - oops, forgot to check that and gets fixed in an update or it could be a decision not to spend the extra cycles to do the check under the assumption that it is not an issue (which turns out to be false depending on your point of view) or could be a software engineering challenge that is still being worked on.

So far every post that promotes some sort of illegal "blocking" of jb'd devices to counter the illegal piracy, completely ignores (because they're unaware of) the spread of devices a single app purchase can do.

As has been described by 5 other posters, for every app I buy, it gets used on about 7 or 8 devices, which is how it should be, and it's exactly what these idiot developers confuse as "piracy". None of you so called developers have the ability to single out devices/users with illegitimate copies of your app, despite your claims.

As far as this Fingertricks whiner goes, if his 99c app has only been purchased 1,100 times, its time to call your venture a failure and move on. There are hundreds of millions of iOS devices, even the worst paid apps get accidentally purchased mores than a thousand times, for crying out loud.

But that wouldn't allow family members to use individual GC accounts.


And it's entirely possible the dev did exactly this and got no response from apple.


What if GC apps stored the purchase account on the device (in addition to the GCID) and sent it when trying to connect to GC? If it isn't in the purchase records, no connection to GC allowed.

In general, it seems like it should be possible for apps that require a network connection to "phone home" and verify that the user account actually purchased the app. Obviously it wouldn't work for apps that don't require the network.


But only somewhat. The number of users IS going to be higher than the number of sales. But not ten times higher. The truth falls somewhere in the middle, but if someone is seeing ten times as many accounts as purchases, no question something fishy is going on. Even if his estimate is off, unless there's some other explanation it sure does look like pirated copies still connect to GC, and apple should make an effort to crack down on that.

He isn't but the person who provided the jailbreak still is - which is the critical point here from Apple's perspective. Apple really doesn't want to get into the business of suing thousands of ipod touch users, but it's quite happy to sue the odd hacker - if it has the legal means to do so.

I never said that Apple lacked standing against the person pirating, I said it does not have standing against the site distributing the pirated applications - and it doesn't, unless they are Apple Apps on the site.

Ummmm because you have to be authorized to use the file.

How could you possibly finish this post and not realize that you are completely wrong?

Umm no you don't. You can put your app on any device, create a brand new game center id, and there is no way to distinguish between legitimate and pirated.

Next.

Why would that be necessary? Couldn't the device just store those credentials and just verify them against the purchase record when an app connects to the network?

I don't see how verifying with the app store records is the same as having to type in the account password.



That doesn't explain a ten to one ratio. For that to happen legally, the users of that app would have to install it ON AVERAGE on ten devices each. Meaning if there's a guy who only installs on one, someone else has to be installing it on twenty. If you believe that's what's actually happening, you're living in a delusional fantasy. Maybe there's some other explanation besides piracy that gets the numbers that high, but multiple installs ain't it.

I don't get why this is such an issue. Apple knows the websites that distribute cracked apps, go after them and sue.

Again, it's not Apple's responsibility.