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Apple Cinema Display page under maintenance ahead of Thunderbolt update - Page 2

post #41 of 89
7/16/11 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamacguy View Post

Wow! A MacBook Pro with it's monitor hooked to two more monitors and my Final Cut Pro X that can't use either of the two extra monitors... Just what I needed!!!

You could always run FCPX on one and have a blog open complaining about it on the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Market_Player

Some people just like to complain about anything they can

Except there are perfectly valid reasons for complaining. You can get used to glossy but you never needed to get used to matte. You can adjust your lighting and seating position with glossy but you never needed to with matte.

There are artifacts with both screens - with matte, it diffuses light over the panel so it washes out blacks a bit; with glossy, you get a reflected overlay on top of blacks.

Neither artifact is nice. The reflected overlay can be very annoying if you are near a window with things moving behind you. Aha, just move the computer right? Yeah, with matte you didn't need to.

The word glossy is synonymous with glare and that's not a positive feature. It doesn't automatically make it worse than matte but it certainly doesn't make it better either.

Both types of monitor are bad and there needs to be a new setup where you get the benefit of a fully transmitting panel coupled with a non-reflecting but smooth overlay. There was a new technique developed a while ago but obviously hasn't caught on:

http://source.theengineer.co.uk/mate.../90021.article

Removing the glass is one way to improve things a bit but doesn't solve the issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy0o2WdrN3M

It's nice to have dual-display support on laptops with Thunderbolt but it's a shame you have to spend $2000 for the setup. Maybe someone will develop a Thunderbolt to multi-HDMI/DVI adaptor.
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post #42 of 89
7/16/11 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Enjoy your slowly-dying backlight and your eight-year-old panel.

I do enjoy my three 30-inchers and shall continue to do so! They are wonderful. Each is less than 5 years old and works beautifully. Production was discontinued not so long ago. If Apple doesn't eventually provide a matte replacement, when these units break down or become dim, I'll simply go elsewhere. Newer isn't always better, to wit FCPX. Unlike acid heads, professionals such as myself value more pixels and matte displays over the latest shiny things.

Meanwhile, I hope you continue to enjoy looking at your ugly mug all day everyday!

Ciao
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post #43 of 89
7/16/11 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Each is less than 5 years old and works beautifully. Production was discontinued not so long ago.

The panel remains 8-year-old tech. And the backlight'll die fairly soon.

Quote:
If Apple doesn't eventually provide a matte replacement, when these units break down or become dim, I'll simply go elsewhere.

Good! Finally someone who gets it!

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Newer isn't always better, to wit FCPX. Unlike acid heads, professionals such as myself value more pixels and matte displays over the latest shiny things.

Except your argument isn't based in any facts, nor are there any reasons "professionals" can't use glossy displays.

Quote:
Meanwhile, I hope you continue to enjoy looking at your ugly mug all day everyday!



I'm guessing you've never trained to argue the top of this.
PhilBoogie
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post #44 of 89
7/16/11 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The panel remains 8-year-old tech. And the backlight'll die fairly soon.

Glossy display technology is older than matte finish technology. By your logic then, that makes glossy inferior and your shiny display will break soon.
Quote:
Except your argument isn't based in any facts...

Au contraire. You simply choose not to recognize the facts: more pixels are better and professionals such as myself prefer more pixels and matte displays. These matters are irrefutable.
Quote:
nor are there any reasons "professionals" can't use glossy displays.

Did I say professionals can't use glossy displays? No, I said professionals such as myself prefer not to.
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I'm guessing you've never trained to argue the top of this.

I see your brain is deficient in the logic area, so I do have to wonder why I even try to argue with you!
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post #45 of 89
7/16/11 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Glossy display technology is older than matte finish technology. By your logic then, that makes glossy inferior.

Completely different argument. I'm talking about PANELS. The LCD panel itself.

Quote:
Au contraire. You simply choose not to recognize the facts: more pixels are better and professionals such as myself prefer more pixels and matte displays. These matters are irrefutable.

'Kay. Except they're not. They're personal preference.

Quote:
Did I say professionals can't use glossy displays? No. Of course professionals can use glossy displays, but professionals such as myself prefer not to.

High. Also mighty.
PhilBoogie
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post #46 of 89
7/16/11 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Completely different argument. I'm talking about PANELS. The LCD panel itself.

You're changing your argument? Which LCD panel? You make no sense!
Quote:
'Kay. Except they're not. They're personal preference.

You actually prefer fewer pixels or you're willing to trade pixels for shininess?
Quote:
High. Also mighty.

The mighty high prefer shiny things. Those interested productivity do not like the distraction of the glare.
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post #47 of 89
7/16/11 at 2:00pm
It's a lost-cause trying to reason on any level with the haters on this thread. They will simply find yet another reason to hate a given Apple product. Provide a matte-option, they'll simply whine about the high price tag. Drop it a few dollars, they'll complain about lack of legacy ports. Best part is "Why pay $1000 for a piece of shiny Steve Jobs tech, when I can buy a <insert cheap asian junk brand-name here> for $100.00 and it's just as good!".

I don't see anyone screaming about other manufacturers with their glossy displays - especially their laptops.

People here are so focused on hating Apple, they would rather waste their energy on a lost cause than to shut their mouths and go find an alternative. It's just mind-boggling.

You don't like a product, don't buy it. Evenutally, if enough people do it perhaps a company will take notice. In Apple's case, it appears the haters are in a very, very small minority compared to the tens of millions of happy consumers.

Honestly people, get over it. Move on and buy whatever product suits you, and quit the whining.
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post #48 of 89
7/16/11 at 2:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sippincider View Post

I dunno, Apple was pretty successful before matte came along. And IIRC nobody asked for gloss, Apple imposed it.

90% of the population also uses Windows. Just sayin'.

Before Apple starting putting glossy screens on Macs, these Apple fans were trashing glossy screen PC laptops, saying how unreadable the screens were.
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post #49 of 89
7/16/11 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

You're changing your argument? Which LCD panel? You make no sense!

Panel quality has improved since 2003. The modern Cinema Displays use better panels than the old ones. As a 'professional' and one so enamored over display choice, I'm VERY surprised that you didn't know what I was talking about.

Or maybe you just really don't have a clue what makes a good display.

Quote:
You actually prefer fewer pixels or you're willing to trade pixels for shininess?

You actually prefer ignoring fact or you're willing to sacrifice believability for the sake of your argument?

Quote:
The mighty high prefer shiny things. Those interested productivity do not like the distraction of the glare.

So what do you do that "requires" a matte display?
PhilBoogie
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post #50 of 89
7/16/11 at 2:38pm
Re: MacBook Air shipping with Lion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

They really don't have a thing to do with one another.

I disagree. I'm convinced that Apple does not want to ship another Mac that runs Snow Leopard. They want to bury the past as quickly as possible and that means ensuring new models ship with Lion and cannot run anything older.

As one of those holdouts who still runs some older software I'm glad my new iMac still runs Snow Leopard. I'm planning to move to a Lion based pure Intel environment by the end of the year, but it'll take some effort and money to replace my PowerPC stuff. I'll be able to make the transition at my own pace rather than one set by Apple.

I'm still adjusting my lighting to reduce reflections, but the iMac's glossy display isn't as bad as I'd feared. The ones are work are a nightmare because we're in an office tower that's pretty much pure floor to ceiling glass.
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post #51 of 89
7/16/11 at 3:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

I disagree. I'm convinced that Apple does not want to ship another Mac that runs Snow Leopard. They want to bury the past as quickly as possible and that means ensuring new models ship with Lion and cannot run anything older.

What does a Cinema Display have to do with Lion and computers that will ship with Lion?

No sense in holding back a display update for that.

Also, I'm rather mad at Apple for doing this. The last displays went eight years between updates and this one hasn't gone three quarters of a year.

If you hadn't guessed, I bought a 27" when it launched. \
PhilBoogie
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post #52 of 89
7/16/11 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

What does a Cinema Display have to do with Lion and computers that will ship with Lion?

Thunderbolt I spose. They want to launch new Thunder desktops with the Thunder screens, in a huge thunderfest.
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post #53 of 89
7/16/11 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Keep in mind that you don't have to have bought the product to review it and you don't have to write a review if you have bought it.

So rather like all those nasty reviews for FCPX, the review counts don't tell the full story.There could be hundreds of folks for whom the issue isn't an issue. Either they don't mind a little effort to place their lighting appropriately, etc or they simply don't get the Apple display

So every iMac or display should come with a roll of tinfoil to block out all windows.
An electrician and carpenter to rebuild rooms just to suit a glossy display.

The Apple Troglodyte Display - coming soon.
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post #54 of 89
7/16/11 at 4:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Thunderbolt I spose. They want to launch new Thunder desktops with the Thunder screens, in a huge thunderfest.

But Thunderbolt works just fine in Snow Leopard. They had no qualms with releasing iMacs and MacBook Pros.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode View Post

So every iMac or display should come with a roll of tinfoil to block out all windows.
An electrician and carpenter to rebuild rooms just to suit a glossy display.

The Apple Troglodyte Display - coming soon.

Except the problem isn't anywhere near as serious as that. Because there really isn't a problem.
PhilBoogie
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post #55 of 89
7/16/11 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

I don't see anyone screaming about other manufacturers with their glossy displays - especially their laptops.

That's because most of the other manufacturers stopped producing glossy displays.
Or at least they are using anti-reflective coatings to make things a bit better.

Apple is the only manufacturer that is releasing a raw piece of reflective glass.

These new displays are not meant to last. When the displays start to lose their brightness, you won't be able to overpower the reflections and they will become even worse.

All Apple has to do is release a matte option and professionals might start looking at their product again.
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post #56 of 89
7/16/11 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

But Thunderbolt works just fine in Snow Leopard. They had no qualms with releasing iMacs and MacBook Pros.



Except the problem isn't anywhere near as serious as that. Because there really isn't a problem.

Millions of articles and hundreds of thousands of posts, petitions and ALL eye doctors, science and medicine seem to counter your retort.

Your SJ indoctrination is showing.
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post #57 of 89
7/16/11 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode View Post

These new displays are not meant to last.

These new displays, whose backlights DO NOT dim over time as opposed to the old ones whose backlights slowly got dimmer over time. Right.

Quote:
When the displays start to lose their brightness, you won't be able to overpower the reflections and they will become even worse.

What in the world did I just say, people.

CCFL backlights (old Cinema Displays) dim. LEDs don't.

"Not meant to last" my foot.
PhilBoogie
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post #58 of 89
7/16/11 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

CCFL backlights (old Cinema Displays) dim. LEDs don't.

Not nearly as badly as CCFLs but in principle they do - assuming that Apple is using a blue LED pumping a phosphor. In fact over the very long term there may be some slight shifting of colour balance - though obviously colour calibration can solve that.

Not that I'm agreeing with that idiot troll, just a slight technical correction.
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post #59 of 89
7/16/11 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Not nearly as badly as CCFLs but in principle they do - assuming that Apple is using a blue LED pumping a phosphor. In fact over the very long term there may be some slight shifting of colour balance - though obviously colour calibration can solve that.

Not that I'm agreeing with that idiot troll, just a slight technical correction.

I could have sworn they were using LEDs for backlight only. The panel is still an LCD. ((A)M)OLEDs are the ones that are self-luminous and (had?) have problems with blue longevity.

I think. Used to be the case, at least.
PhilBoogie
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post #60 of 89
7/16/11 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I could have sworn they were using LEDs for backlight only. The panel is still an LCD. ((A)M)OLEDs are the ones that are self-luminous and (had?) have problems with blue longevity.

I think. Used to be the case, at least.

The LED is just a backlight, but in order to make a white LED you have two choices. One is to mix red green and blue LEDs and tune them, but there are problems because each LED's output is dependent on temperature and the three have different temperature response profiles.

The other approach is to use blue (or near UV) LEDs that drive a mix of phosphors to produce a white light. The longevity problem thus comes from the slight burn-in effect on the phosphors, rather than any burn-out on the LED itself. Now obviously you won't get an image burn-in the way you would with a CRT or plasma, because the LED is just for backlight, but it does still take place, and it affects the different colour phosphors slightly differently, so there's a bit of colour drift.

It's a far less serious problem than the old backlights, never mind the AMOLEDS, but it is still an issue.
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post #61 of 89
7/16/11 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode View Post

ALL eye doctors, science and medicine seem to counter your retort.

Really, cite ONE expert medical article that says that this is the expert medical opinion, observation and experience.
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post #62 of 89
7/16/11 at 6:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode View Post

Millions of articles and hundreds of thousands of posts, petitions and ALL eye doctors, science and medicine seem to counter your retort.

Your SJ indoctrination is showing.

Wow, how'd I miss a post as completely, utterly, and hilariously wrong as this?

I must be slipping.
PhilBoogie
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post #63 of 89
7/16/11 at 8:33pm
Would rather be a knowledgeable user with decades of experience and called a troll -
then a gambler who bought some stock that went up and now thinks they know it all.

I'm not going to show you guys how to use the internet. Or the application of critical thinking on the resources you read. Search for yourself - glossy displays are bad.
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post #64 of 89
7/16/11 at 9:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode View Post

I'm not going to show you guys how to use the internet. Or the application of critical thinking on the resources you read. Search for yourself - glossy displays are bad.

Except they're not.

Team of opthamologists in my city. They've used Apple products since the Apple ][ for their work.

And they've now upgraded to Macs that are all glossy. Twenty or so computers being used daily by people (and their staff) that you claim to be on the forefront of touting the virtues of matte displays.

Better tell them they're all wrong, then. If just to see how much of a kick they get out of it.
PhilBoogie
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post #65 of 89
7/16/11 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post

Really, cite ONE expert medical article that says that this is the expert medical opinion, observation and experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Wow, how'd I miss a post as completely, utterly, and hilariously wrong as this?

I must be slipping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode View Post

Would rather be a knowledgeable user with decades of experience and called a troll -
then a gambler who bought some stock that went up and now thinks they know it all.

I'm not going to show you guys how to use the internet. Or the application of critical thinking on the resources you read. Search for yourself - glossy displays are bad.

It's obvious Mode is applying Tekstudian logic in his belief-system, slinging utter nonsense at the wall in the hopes something sticks. A fine example from the Book of Tekstud. \
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post #66 of 89
7/16/11 at 10:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

Apple: this is a health and productivity issue. Please, include matte displays, at least as an option.

You can sign the matte petition at:

MacMatte (matte petition)
http://macmatte.wordpress.com

Health issue? Never heard that before; why is that?

I fully agree Apple should offer matte display again. I got the 30" the moment it was announced EOL. Some people even bought spare ones to keep in the attic, go figure.

But with the runaway success of the iPad and its glossy screen perhaps Apple lost focus on what (some) customers want. Possibly, or even probably in the minority, these matte screen lovers, but sho nuff Apple customers all the same.

Cheers,
Phil
Even if you disagree, he is entitled to his opinion, isn't he? Just as you're entitled to your blinders? (Stelligent)
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Even if you disagree, he is entitled to his opinion, isn't he? Just as you're entitled to your blinders? (Stelligent)
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post #67 of 89
7/16/11 at 10:07pm
@ Tallest Skil

Have you even tried to create a Photoshop Layer Mask on a glossy screen?
OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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post #68 of 89
7/16/11 at 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

I just have to laugh at all the glossy Apple displays, before returning to my matte finish 30" Cinema displays (which can still be found on ebay and craigslist.) More pixels than the 27-incher is better, too.

Fully agree. The 409.600 more pixels make a little difference to me, but it's nice that you can have a long webpage open and read it without scrolling. A damn shame they don't make them anymore (EOL July 26, 2010).
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post #69 of 89
7/16/11 at 10:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Enjoy your slowly-dying backlight and your eight-year-old panel.

It was introduced in 2004 but got an upgrade in 2006 I believe. See http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2006/03/3369.ars

"The Cinema Display's brightness, which was originally 270 cd/m2, has now been upgraded to 400 cd/2. The screen's contrast ratio has also been bumped up from 400:1 to 700:1."

Personally I choose the slowly-dying backlight over the glossy option, but to each his own.
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post #70 of 89
7/16/11 at 10:55pm
Originally Posted by zunx View Post
Apple: this is a health and productivity issue. Please, include matte displays, at least as an option.

You can sign the matte petition at:

MacMatte (matte petition)

Any chance you can give it a rest? Reposting the same or similar post to a different thread isn't the way to make it work. Apple does offer a feedback page, just suggest people to send their requests over there.

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post #71 of 89
7/16/11 at 10:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Enjoy your slowly-dying backlight and your eight-year-old panel.

What kind of LED does Apple's LED backlights use? I've not found a reasonably authoritative source.

BTW: My 30" is 5 years old, is used daily and still quite bright. I've still don't have cause to go above minimum brightness.
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post #72 of 89
7/16/11 at 11:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode View Post

- glossy displays are bad.

mmkay?

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post #73 of 89
7/16/11 at 11:25pm
This will probably get lost amongst the shouting match of the near-religious-war about screen texture. (Disclaimer: I own a 30" matte Cinema Display, made just as the war's first skirmishes were played out, and a 17" glossy MBP, of newer vintage.)

If I wanted to connect two of the new Thunderbolt 27"s to a 2009 Mac Pro, I'm assuming the video will work, but I'll need a wide variety of (passive) adapters?

Will non-video even work? If so, will the sound/camera/keyboard-controls still be frakked? ("No one would ever want to use two of these!" )

Where are the Mac Pro Thunderbolt video cards? Will there ever be old-Pro-compatible versions?

I guess what I'm asking here is if these displays will work at all with non-Thunderbolt Macs. Is there a transition strategy other than "Buy new kit!"?
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post #74 of 89
7/17/11 at 2:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isomorphic View Post

If I wanted to connect two of the new Thunderbolt 27"s to a 2009 Mac Pro, I'm assuming the video will work, but I'll need a wide variety of (passive) adapters?

Where are the Mac Pro Thunderbolt video cards? Will there ever be old-Pro-compatible versions?

Apparently, the Thunderbolt cables don't work on existing Mini-DP products:

http://store.apple.com/uk/question/a...TJHFAK27FT97KP

I would assume the displays will ship with a Thunderbolt cable. I imagine you will be able to use a standard Mini-DP cable to hook up the displays but you won't get data support for USB.

It's not clear what will happen with the Mac Pro concerning Thunderbolt because Intel has said there will be no TB GPUs or PCI cards. The port has to go on the motherboard.

The only way I can see them doing this in the new Mac Pros is to either have both PCI GPUs with display outputs and Thunderbolt ports on the motherboard or they can go the MXM route for GPUs like the iMac (which I'm personally hoping happens). Either way though, no solution offered for supporting Thunderbolt on pre-Thunderbolt machines.
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post #75 of 89
7/17/11 at 3:17am
First time poster but long time reader, just noticed at the bottom of the AppleCare Store page the T&C's have changed to reflect Lion rather than SL. Seem's the whole website has changed.
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post #76 of 89
7/17/11 at 5:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

What kind of LED does Apple's LED backlights use? I've not found a reasonably authoritative source.

That is a REALLY good question and I couldn't find anything either. Even the panel's datasheet doesn't seem to say.
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post #77 of 89
7/17/11 at 6:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Any chance you can give it a rest? Reposting the same or similar post to a different thread isn't the way to make it work

You've only just noticed? The majority of zunx's posts are demands for Apple to either make a portable Mac in your pocket for or matte screens.
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post #78 of 89
7/17/11 at 6:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

Nope. We are asking for a matte option. Choice is good.



Generally only super high end pros need matte, and they are using super high dollar color accurate screens any way so there really is little to no market for an Apple Matte Cinima display at this time.
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #79 of 89
7/17/11 at 6:45am
Sorry, after using a 30" monitor for a few years now, I'd really like another one (or bigger), not a 27", and before you jump all over me and say 27" - 30", there isn't a big difference ask your girlfriend or wife if 3" MORE is a big deal

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post #80 of 89
7/17/11 at 7:41am
I've owned a lot of Macs over a long period of time. A lot of random displays too.

I remember when all my displays were matte screens. The I remember when those screens starting becoming glossy, and were suddenly ALL glossy, and I thought, WOW, this looks a hell of a lot better than the old screens! I hope this never goes away!

It's not going away. The glossy screens are awesome, and perfect for everything practical. The only thing they are not excellent for is sitting outside in direct sunlight and trying to be productive.......

....then again I can't remember the last time I needed to/wanted to sit out and in the sun and do work on my Mac. What a waste of a nice day.
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