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Human Shields (What are they thinking?)

post #1 of 450
2/28/03 at 2:56pm
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<a href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/878871.asp?0na=x2347381-" target="_blank">http://www.msnbc.com/news/878871.asp?0na=x2347381-</a>

It seems that a lot of antiwar activists have purposely moved into Baghdad in the hopes of preventing collateral damage to civilians. They have attached themselves to power plants, factories, water purification plants, etc...

As one stated:

Quote:
I want the world to know theres no such thing as collateral damage, said OKeefe after activists had set down their backpacks and bedrolls on metal beds laid out dormitory style in a plush conference room featuring at least a dozen likenesses of Saddam Hussein. If anyone here dies due to bombing, its murder.

Is this guy out of his mind? If anyone dies there it is not murder, it is suicide! Power plants, factories and such are legitimate targets in military exercises as you need to remove from your enemy any advantage so that they will surrender faster.

I think this last quote shows that many have realized their mistake all to late:

Quote:
Some of the shields seemed to be just now waking up to the complex issuesand the risksswirling about them. Im trying to meet with [U.N. weapons inspectors] to make sure the sites were stationed at arent close to legitimate military targets, says one Western peacenik on condition of anonymity. Both the Baghdad South power plant and the Daurra refinery are close to military sites or VIP palaces, and a handful of shields were beginning to worry theyd be forced to stay in places where they didnt want to be, he said. Theres a rumor going around that when we want to leave Iraq, some might not be allowed to. At least for now, Iraqi authorities show no sign of adopting such tactics. More likely, theyll reap the propaganda windfall that the human shields representthen send them home if theyre no longer useful.

Sad. I realize that they are trying to fight the war and prevent it from happening. But if they die when this all goes down their blood will be on their own heads. I will not feel guilty for them, only sadness. It is called personal responsibility, and hopefully they realized the danger they were putting themselves in before they signed up. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #2 of 450
2/28/03 at 2:58pm
more deaths will not add anything to this...i don't support human shields....hell, if they want to be shields, find the hospitals and orphanages and elementary schools.....g
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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post #3 of 450
2/28/03 at 3:03pm
I'm hoping for a "Stupid Human Sheild" feature at rotten.com later this year.

Go retards!
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post #4 of 450
2/28/03 at 3:07pm
On this issue I agree with the pro-war crowd.

In Iraq you have absolutly no control on how you are being used. How do you know that the powerplant you are put in front haven´t got a shelter for the elite in its basement? The critisism against the demonstrators of being useful idiots only applies to these human shields.
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post #5 of 450
2/28/03 at 7:01pm
There are much better ways to protest against the war... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
iSurf, iSaw and iType
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iSurf, iSaw and iType
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post #6 of 450
2/28/03 at 7:26pm
They will have a rude awakening when the Iraqis prove to be not as nice as they assumed and as soon as the firing starts they will either be shot or forced into territory where they are certain to be killed, once they are killed then it will be used as press fodder for Hussains PR attempts . . .

Its so obviouse only a total Eugene Oregon style ultra-lefty wouldn't see it
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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

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post #7 of 450
2/28/03 at 8:16pm
Human shields, what a waste of time, life and effort. The US government is even thinking about classifying them as "enemy combatants", and if they even make it home, they could get up to 20 years in jail and a $500,000 fine. What a dumb, stupid way of protesting a war. If it comes to that, those bombs are going to fall, human shields or not. The military, no matter what side they are on don't give a flying fvck if some 'human shield" civilians are hanging out on the ground somewhere below.

Forget good intentions here...the notion of human shields is totally stupid and unproductive.

As an afterthought...the only way a "human shield" could work, is en masse, like one of the huge demonstrations of Feb 15... say, a half million people or more going to Iraq. Even then, I am not too sure if it would make much difference, knowing the recklessness, singlemindedness and fear of losing face of both Saddam and Bush....

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />

[ 02-28-2003: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...


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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...


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post #8 of 450
2/28/03 at 8:21pm
You know what's funny is that the first set of "human shields" from the first war were in fact prisoners that Iraq held illegally and put in harms way against their will. This is the type of government these "anti-war" protesters want to protect.
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post #9 of 450
2/28/03 at 8:29pm
Scott: Just remember that these people are a small fraction of the anti-war movement.

Just like there is people who wants to nuke the hell out of Iraq on the pro-war side.
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post #10 of 450
2/28/03 at 8:48pm
[quote]Originally posted by Anders the White:
<strong>Scott: Just remember that these people are a small fraction of the anti-war movement.

Just like there is people who wants to nuke the hell out of Iraq on the pro-war side.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The last figure I heard was approx. 300 human shields in Iraq. It is unknown how many people are in the anti-war movement. An unknown percentage of them (some 15 million people) hit the streets on Feb 15th. But 300 out of 15 million = 0.002%, kinda insignificant.
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...


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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...


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post #11 of 450
2/28/03 at 8:57pm
Might as well just stroll off a cliff for all the good it will do.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #12 of 450
2/28/03 at 9:05pm
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>You know what's funny is that the first set of "human shields" from the first war were in fact prisoners that Iraq held illegally and put in harms way against their will. This is the type of government these "anti-war" protesters want to protect.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Scott,

There are well meaning but really ineffective and childish people in every group er...... they don't appear to have a grip on reality ah......they want to do good but end up undermining their cause er...... their hearts in the right place but they appear angry and stupid ah........well you know what I mean.



[ 03-01-2003: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #13 of 450
2/28/03 at 9:15pm
Sigh. I mean all of the "anti-war" people. Not just the useful idiot which are of course in the minority.
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post #14 of 450
2/28/03 at 9:23pm
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>Sigh. I mean all of the "anti-war" people. Not just the useful idiot which are of course in the minority.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Whoosh! Right over the top.


<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #15 of 450
2/28/03 at 11:38pm
The more the merrier I say. I'd like to see Alec Baldwin, Sean Penn and Bahbrah chained together to protect a Baby Milk Factory.

Steady that aim, soldier, and take your time about it.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #16 of 450
3/1/03 at 6:23am
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>

As an afterthought...the only way a "human shield" could work, is en masse, like one of the huge demonstrations of Feb 15... say, a half million people or more going to Iraq. Even then, I am not too sure if it would make much difference, knowing the recklessness, singlemindedness and fear of losing face of both Saddam and Bush....</strong><hr></blockquote>

See that would be a great idea. But when they got to Iraq instead of saying "Show us where to sit" to the nearest Iraqi officer they should start hand out pamflets against Saddam, go to the palaces and sites that are assumed having WoMD and sniff around. And always in groups of 100.000. Lets see how Saddam would react to that behaviour among his guests. I don´t think it takes more than 1/2 mill. to start a revolution. And US wouldn´t dare attack as long as 1/2 mill. western people were in Baghdad doing anti-saddam propaganda.

It would be even better if it was iraqis who did this and the only thing against it would be the huge loss of lifes that it would result in.

[ 03-01-2003: Message edited by: Anders the White ]</p>
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post #17 of 450
3/1/03 at 7:03am
[quote]Originally posted by thegelding:
<strong>more deaths will not add anything to this...i don't support human shields....hell, if they want to be shields, find the hospitals and orphanages and elementary schools.....g</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed.

Acting as a human shield for military and/or non-humanitarian sites is a war crime. Not because I say so, or because I think it's stupid -- it's an actual war crime under international law.
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post #18 of 450
3/1/03 at 7:06am
[quote]Originally posted by Anders the White:
<strong>On this issue I agree with the pro-war crowd.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is no pro-war crowd. Please be more careful with your choice of words. I know you didn't mean it to be taken that way.

[ 03-01-2003: Message edited by: finboy ]</p>
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post #19 of 450
3/1/03 at 7:16am
There's some talk of the Dali Lama & the Pope getting together to make a human shield. I guess they were/are seriously thinking about it. If the Pope were there, the idea of a human sheild starts the become clearer. I doubt Bush would be willing to murder the Pope.

Hell, if the 15,000,000 protesters all made their way to Iraq the human shield would work as well.

As for personal responsibility, why is there none for the military? I mean, when we bomb a wedding party in Afghanistan, it's just 'oops'? If we 'accidentally' bomb an illegitimate target and kill some protesters, what responsibility does the military share in your mind? None?
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post #20 of 450
3/1/03 at 7:17am
[quote]Originally posted by finboy:
<strong>There is no pro-war crowd.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is no spoon...
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post #21 of 450
3/1/03 at 7:40am
Off you go Bunge, you must protect Saddam and his regime now. as someone else stated , it wouldn't be murder, but suicide.
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post #22 of 450
3/1/03 at 8:11am
[quote]Originally posted by Anders the White:
<strong>

See that would be a great idea. But when they got to Iraq instead of saying "Show us where to sit" to the nearest Iraqi officer they should start hand out pamflets against Saddam, go to the palaces and sites that are assumed having WoMD and sniff around. And always in groups of 100.000. Lets see how Saddam would react to that behaviour among his guests. I don´t think it takes more than 1/2 mill. to start a revolution. And US wouldn´t dare attack as long as 1/2 mill. western people were in Baghdad doing anti-saddam propaganda.

It would be even better if it was iraqis who did this and the only thing against it would be the huge loss of lifes that it would result in.
</strong><hr></blockquote>


Good idea. Problem is is that would be a real anti-war movement and the "anti-war" movement isn't about stopping war but about bashing the US.
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post #23 of 450
3/1/03 at 8:19am
[quote]Originally posted by Alex London:
<strong>Off you go Bunge, you must protect Saddam and his regime now. as someone else stated , it wouldn't be murder, but suicide.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, someone did state that it would be suicide not murder. But does that make it true? No. I can state that it's a grapefruit, but that doesn't make it true either.

In a war, not all targets are legitimate. Sorry. You can't just flatten the entire country simple because that's the only way to be sure you've killed all the 'evil doers.' You actually have to be discerning. They actually have international lawyers in the military planning rooms to sort out what is or isn't a legitimate target. You can't just destroy everything.

And how am I protecting Saddam and his regime? I don't think I mentioned them at all.
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post #24 of 450
3/1/03 at 8:21am
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>

...the "anti-war" movement isn't about stopping war but about bashing the US.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You still can make crap up without even thinking about it. You probably don't even realize it anymore when you are making crap up.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #25 of 450
3/1/03 at 8:33am
We shold probably point out that these people aren't sitting at military installations, but at places like schools and mosques. These aren't typical military targets anyway. However, in the war in Afghanistan, the Taliban tried to hide weapons and troops in these places because they knew that bombing it would be great PR for them, claiming it had families inside instead. So I think the military forces will keep an eye on those types of places to see who is actually moving into them.

I wonder what the human shields would do if Iraq tried to stuff a few tanks and troops into their mosque with them?

Also, I wonder how safe they could possibly be if urban warfare breaks out in Baghdad. What are the chances Iraqi troops will use them as their own personal human shields, like what happened with kids and civilians in Mogadishu?

[ 03-01-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
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post #26 of 450
3/1/03 at 8:34am
scott...i am assuming you mean the anti-war movement around the world, not the anti-war movement in the US...everyone i have met on marches loves this country, i know i sure do...best country in the world...g

as for the anti-war movement in other countries? i really don't know them, but i assume some of them have various reasons...some even are anti-us, but i am equally sure not all are...

human shields...stupid idea, more lives lost is bad...if the idiots are there, hopefully they stay at hospitals and schools...they are still likely to get killed, but hopefully less so since our bombs are so smart now adays....g
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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post #27 of 450
3/1/03 at 8:37am
[quote]Originally posted by Anders the White:
<strong>Lets see how Saddam would react to that behaviour among his guests.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hussein would slaughter them, or rather, they would mysteriously disappear.
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post #28 of 450
3/1/03 at 9:06am
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong> "anti-war" movement isn't about stopping war but about bashing the US.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The people that are bashing the US are the current administration . . . Ashcroft and his anti-Constitutional security measures, Bush and his economy for the top elite, his environmental policy committees headed not by scientists but by auto-industry approved spokesmen... etc etc

a real measure of good leadership is the moral of those being governed . . . and we clearly are in the shiiter.... black cloud of despair and enmity from even our once close allies
wake up people!!!.... this admin is nightmare!!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #29 of 450
3/1/03 at 9:53am
Bunge, I'm not a rabid war-mongering zealot who gets his jollies by the prospect of smiting my enemies but if someone chooses to go to Iraq and then chooses to stand around some military or civilian sites why would believe that some military planner would know that they are are there, or even care.
If they believe that this action would prevent war they would be actually shielding Saddam and his regime, there is not going to be carpet bombing of civilians, or flattening an entire country. P.S I have a close relative out there who has been frantically preparing for Saddams NBC ( no, not the network) actions so they really are convinced he has some serious shit hidden and ready to go. Peace brother.
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post #30 of 450
3/1/03 at 10:25am
Anders:

Revolution in Iraq would be the bloodiest of all scenarios without a doubt. If we care about Iraqi civilians as a world, and we don't, we wouldn't have treated them the way we have for the last 12 years.

If the forthcoming war kills over 500,000 of them like the sanctions did up to 1996 alone (I don't even know what the toll has been with 7 more years) I'll gladly eat my words, but until then, and as crazy as it sounds, I think the most humane thing to do is undertake a war with a clear goal of minimizing civilian casualties to oust Saddam Hussein and his regime and get the sanctions against the people (because that's who they are against) lifted.
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post #31 of 450
3/1/03 at 10:44am
[quote]Originally posted by thegelding:
<strong>scott...i am assuming you mean the anti-war movement around the world, not the anti-war movement in the US...everyone i have met on marches loves this country, i know i sure do...best country in the world...g

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Those folks are easy to spot -- they're the ones marching with big signs. They're all out there because they love America so much. It's just the folks who are organizing the marches (such as the World Workers' Party) that hate America. Let's keep that clear.

Big difference. Organizers/sponsors/media -- trying to undermine America. Ordinary folks -- not trying to undermine America by marching in protest. Ordinary folks DON'T MEAN TO (this is important) support Saddam Hussein, they just don't want war. Or Bush, or SUVs, or whatever CNN tells them to not want.

[ 03-01-2003: Message edited by: finboy ]</p>
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post #32 of 450
3/1/03 at 10:47am
The people who say that the protestors "hate America" or are "pro-Saddam" are off-base. The vast majority of these protesters are merely anti-Bush. They griped a bit when Clinton dropped bombs on Iraqis, but they'll come out 1 million strong when a Republican threatens to do it.

This is all political.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #33 of 450
3/1/03 at 10:48am
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>
The people that are bashing the US are the current administration . . . Ashcroft and his anti-Constitutional security measures, Bush and his economy for the top elite, his environmental policy committees headed not by scientists but by auto-industry approved spokesmen... etc etc

a real measure of good leadership is the moral of those being governed . . . and we clearly are in the shiiter.... black cloud of despair and enmity from even our once close allies
wake up people!!!.... this admin is nightmare!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wish I could switch over to the doe-eyed Left and write that kind of stuff. That sounds so much more fun than just continuing to point out how much DRIVEL it is.

Sniff. You're right, they're a NIGHTMARE. Turn back to CNN and the networks, they'll confirm your suspicions and help you formulate a new gestalt when (or if) that one wears thin.

I hate to seem so negative, but I'm surprised at how f*cking gullible people are. And how intellectually lazy they are as well.

[ 03-01-2003: Message edited by: finboy ]</p>
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post #34 of 450
3/1/03 at 11:32am
I heard on El Jezira that Saddam was ready to make him self an human shield. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Perhaps i don't understand very well the arab
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post #35 of 450
3/1/03 at 11:35am
[quote]Originally posted by Powerdoc:
<strong>I heard on El Jezira that Saddam was ready to make him self an human shield. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, he will act as a human shield to his N/B/C weapons because no one can find them, so they won't find him either.
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post #36 of 450
3/1/03 at 11:45am
[quote]Originally posted by finboy:
<strong>

I wish I could switch over to the doe-eyed Left and write that kind of stuff. That sounds so much more fun than just continuing to point out how much DRIVEL it is.

Sniff. You're right, they're a NIGHTMARE. Turn back to CNN and the networks, they'll confirm your suspicions and help you formulate a new gestalt when (or if) that one wears thin.

I hate to seem so negative, but I'm surprised at how f*cking gullible people are. And how intellectually lazy they are as well.[ 03-01-2003: Message edited by: finboy ]</strong><hr></blockquote>You harp on about CNN and the networks . . . I don't watch either, I don't have cable and only see CNNM when I am travelling and staying at a hotel . . . your ideas about the media are hillarious . . its like a broken (and warped) record . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #37 of 450
3/1/03 at 11:54am
Some decade ago I was in Israel, and there was then one actual occurence of a person acting as a human shield, which made the news at the time.
I don't remember all the exact details. A Palestinian man suddenly started stabbing people in a Jerusalem shopping mall (it was before they discovered what fun it is to blow oneslef up with a crowd of sinners), soon the crowd started to run after him, probably to dispense some form of primitive vengeance. That's when a religious lady, one Mrs. Freund I think, shileded him against the angry mob and thus saved his life. And she was not a peace activist or any kind of political demonstrator, and certainly held no favourable view of the criminal stabber (who was certainly not innocent but not deserving a lynching), she was just a common Israeli civilian with common humane decency.
Now, when these antiwar activists get to Iraq, they are likely to witness the violent death of Iraqi civilians, at the hand the various armed corps of the regime. How many of them will risk their lives to shield them?
That remains to be seen, yet the fact that not one of those idealists took the initiative to humanly shield Iraqi civilians from Saddam's regime all these years, hints at the more likely outcome.

In conclusion, you'll find much self-righteous moralist preaching among those activists, but you'll have to look harder there for that rather common humane decency.
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post #38 of 450
3/1/03 at 12:41pm
[quote]Originally posted by finboy:
<strong>

Organizers/sponsors/media -- trying to undermine America. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Your definition of "America" certainly is warped.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #39 of 450
3/1/03 at 12:45pm
[quote]Originally posted by Alex London:
<strong>

...why would believe that some military planner would know that they are are there, or even care. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Now you're getting to the point: the military planners DON'T care. That's why the human shields are there. The human shields know that the military planners will kill civilians and by being a human shield they can bring this problem into the open. The fact that it's being discussed here is proof that their message is getting out. Good for them.

Besides, I would think that those pushing for war (death/killing/slaughter/explosions) would be proud of someone willing to die for their cause. Seems warped to me that you all will criticize them.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #40 of 450
3/1/03 at 12:51pm
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Revolution in Iraq would be the bloodiest of all scenarios without a doubt.</strong><hr></blockquote>
To qoute you, how do you arrive at this conclusion? It would depend on the revolution wouldn't it?
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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