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Human Shields (What are they thinking?) - Page 6

post #201 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
The rules of war are laid down by "public international law", defined (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) by the "STATUTE OF THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE" and the Geneva convention. Ratified by the US.

A unilateral, preemptive attack on a sovereign country is a breach of these principles. So It's not about the sovereignty of the US.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Since one learned colleague affirmed that U.N. membership was a surrender (giving up being his terms if my memory serves) if some sovereingity by member states, I had to disspell that misconception, for the record.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Its about the sovereignty of Iraq.

We might not like it, but even badguys have rights.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Since the U.N. was officially established in 1945, there have been dozens of cases in which (fully sovereign) member states have attacked other (fully sovereign) member states, without asking the U.N. for any authorisation.
Good guys as well as bad guys still have the right to fight each other.

Now, I'm no legal expert for international treaties, conventions, or concordats. But if the U.S.A. is currently in any breach of any of its signed commitments, why don't you sue them on that caps locked court you mentioned?

[ 03-03-2003: Message edited by: Immanuel Goldstein ]</p>
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post #202 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>Why don't you back that up with examples rather than leaving it as a personal attack?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I personally attacked your statement. I'm sorry if I hurt your statement's feelings.

It's an ignorant statement because you equate the movement towards forced disarmament with the term "mob". I really shouldn't have to explain past that, but if you really need your hand held on this I'll be more than happy to spell it out for you.

You can't have an honest and civil outlook on those who disagree with you on this because your argument relies so heavily on emotions.

New:

There will be no unilateral attack. I expect to see you draft a proposal to send the leaders of all nations who go in against Iraq (if there isn't a UN mandate, which there will be IMO) to send them straight to the Hague.
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post #203 of 450
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post #204 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:
<strong>Since the U.N. was officially established in 1945, there have been dozens of cases in which (fully sovereign) member states have attacked other (fully sovereign) member states, without asking the U.N. for any authorisation.
Good guys as well as bad guys still have the right to fight each other.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not without a valid reason. Sorry.
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post #205 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>quick google search on public international law and iraq:</strong><hr></blockquote>
And another one. this is a PDF:

<a href="http://www.lcnp.org/global/IraqOpinion10.9.02.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.lcnp.org/global/IraqOpinion10.9.02.pdf</a>
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post #206 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:
<strong>Now, I'm no legal expert for international treaties, conventions, or concordats. But if the U.S.A. is currently in any breach of any of its signed commitments, why don't you sue them on that caps locked court you mentioned?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sue them? Don't you think they have enough financial difficulties?
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post #207 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Alex London:
<strong>
Answer the question or piss off.... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Why don't you just piss off first, then learn how to read the thread and gleam the answer for yourself if you're going to be a prick about it.
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post #208 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
You can't have an honest and civil outlook on those who disagree with you on this because your argument relies so heavily on emotions. </strong><hr></blockquote>

lol! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> lol!
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post #209 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Not without a valid reason. Sorry.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks New, for supporting my point. This pretty much sums up enough. Prior to 1945, we could have attacked anyone without having to worry about the Hague as groverat puts it.

Now we do.

So, being part of the U.N. does reduce our 'rights' as a nation.
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post #210 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Anders the White:
<strong>

Funny. I have it the opposite way. I thought those people were crazy when they left because they was sure to be used by the rulers. So to go away when the obvious happened is thumbs up to them.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
But they went in knowing they would be used by Saddam. They left, not when they were in fear of being used by Saddam, but when they thought they might actually be in danger. Giving them a thumbs up for running away from their convictions and standing up for their convictions only when it's safe and on camera seems strange.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders the White:
<strong>
The only thing worse position I would see myself in than dropping bombs on Baghdad would be protecting military installations for Saddam
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Since many of the civilian places the shield wanted to guard were beside/above/within military installations, your human-shield heroes were doing exactly that.

[quote]Originally posted by Anders the White:
<strong>
The best thing to do as a civilian in the west is 1) To back the franco-german proposal or (if you really wants to risk your life) 2) join a resistance group in Iraq. People did the same to fight fascism in Spain in the mid 30sand they were heroes in my book. </strong><hr></blockquote>
They would be little/no use to any resistance in Iraq as they would too busy running away. They people in Spain (and in any resistance movement)were willing to die and fight for their cause, these clowns can only parade, carry witty posters, ride their bikes, go on field trips to support Saddam and criticize Bush.

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post #211 of 450
Ok, so let's start making up our list of war criminals:
United States, Britain, Spain, Italy, Poland, Israel, Bulgaria, Japan, Australia. Tell me if I'm leaving someone out, I'd hate to offend.

They will be tried in Belgium since they decided that they have universal jurisdiction and Iraq will be in charge of punishment since this is all very unfair to them.

Good, glad we got that sorted out.
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post #212 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Ok, so let's start making up our list of war criminals:
United States, Britain, Spain, Italy, Poland, Israel, Bulgaria, Japan, Australia. Tell me if I'm leaving someone out, I'd hate to offend. </strong><hr></blockquote>

So what you're saying is, rule by mob is OK? Or that when the number of offenders is high enough, you no longer care if they're breaking the law?

That is, Saddam is just one guy so we can get him. But, if all Texans started lynching again, it would be OK because there are so many Texans?

I hope you do realize that this is where your argument leads.
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post #213 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>

So what you're saying is, rule by mob is OK? Or that when the number of offenders is high enough, you no longer care if they're breaking the law?

That is, Saddam is just one guy so we can get him. But, if all Texans started lynching again, it would be OK because there are so many Texans?

I hope you do realize that this is where your argument leads.</strong><hr></blockquote>
...to international concensus outside of UN inaction?

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...sometimes it's both
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...sometimes it's both
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post #214 of 450
[quote]<strong>So what you're saying is, rule by mob is OK? Or that when the number of offenders is high enough, you no longer care if they're breaking the law?</strong><hr></blockquote>

All decisions made outside of the UN are "mob" action?

Your rhetoric is sad.

I think the UN needs to bring itself up before the War Crimes tribunal for the way they slaughter the Iraqi people as well.

To quote Maynard James Keenan of tool: "no one is innocent"

[quote]<strong>That is, Saddam is just one guy so we can get him. But, if all Texans started lynching again, it would be OK because there are so many Texans?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You are very clever.
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post #215 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Your rhetoric is sad.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Pray tell, how would you define a group willfully acting outside of the law?
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post #216 of 450
The law?

The UN isn't the ultimate arbiter of world affairs. It is far more grey than that.
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post #217 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>It is far more grey than that. </strong><hr></blockquote>

*aside*

I'd say things look more black than grey right now...
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post #218 of 450
From Agent302:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Clearly you've missed the entire point of my post (and I hate righteous attempts to nitpick little points).&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Quite so, quite so...

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The main assertion I was making (which you ignored) was that who ever I was originally replying to (can't recall right now)&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

'Allo to you!

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;was incorrect in the claim that Ford's policies effectively conceded Nixon's supposed 'victory'.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;
1973-Nixon resigns. Ford becomes President. Chevy Chase rejoices.
Later, while Ford is President, and the Democrats control the nation's purse strings, and after US troops are out of Viet Nam and the South Vietnamese are standing up for themselves (which is a suitable definition for victory) and by definition again, as a result of the Paris PEACE talks and the signing of the armistance, there was PEACE in Viet Nam and it was as much of a victory for the United States as the Korean War armistance was. Both nations existed free of the despicable horror known as Communist Domination.

Then, in what could be called Viet Nam War Part 2, the government of North Viet Nam broke its word (Didn't some goddamned scum bag, some sonofanillych say, "Promises are like piecrusts, they're made to be broken."?) The NVA swept out of the North (supplied by their brother Communists in USSR and PRC) and attacked. Under PRESIDENT FORD's neutered administration, the DEMOCRATIC House of Representatives and Senate Scored Big Political Points and refused to allocate funds to help the poor, damned South Vietnamese like we goddamned promised. We couldn't even supply air support.

So we did throw away a hard-won victory by listening to goddamned peace-niks. Rest assured, that we will not make that goddamned mistake again.

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I was arguing that Nixon had in fact pulled out troops long before this&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;
Which, going on just the text of your post was difficult to discern.

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;, which you post as claiming that I didn't know.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;
Whatevah.

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Reading is fundamental.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;
Scratch when it itches.

Screw the UN, Let the Conquest of Iraq begin!

Oh, btw, the best part, the very best part about the upcoming war is this:

No matter how many pages this thread grows to, no matter how many theads in support of Saddamn Hussein the peace-niks here in AI post, it won't, won't mind you, make a bit of difference. Saddamn will be dead or captured three hours after Operation Twin Towers kicks off.

To any US military personnel who wander in here:
You guys and gals just freakin' rock! If you're in -theater, then Kick some major ass, be careful, and get yourselves home quickly! You are America's heroes, no matter what your job, no matter what your rank! Godbless you wonderful men and women! Hoo-RAH!

Aries 1B
Cheering on the Conquest of Iraq

[ 03-04-2003: Message edited by: Aries 1B ]</p>
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post #219 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>I'd say things look more black than grey right now... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, it's been nothing but roses and cherries up to this point. Sorry to wake you from your dream, princess.
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post #220 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Aries 1B:
<strong>
No matter how many pages this thread grows to, no matter how many theads in support of Saddamn Hussein the peace-niks here in AI post, it won't, won't mind you, make a bit of difference. Saddamn will be dead or captured three hours after Operation Twin Towers kicks off. </strong><hr></blockquote>

No matter how quickly Saddam Hussein is captured or killed, no matter how few U.S. military lives are lost, no matter how many Iraqi civilians we save, there are more important things in life.
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post #221 of 450
Edited for exhausted intemperate langauge ( ihaven't slept properly in weeks) Bunge, let's start over. I don't see the shields as defending democratic principles, you do. I agree they are using democratic principles and of course they should if they feel strongly about something, my point was thet they were not going to achieve much by going to a brutal dictatorship to defend democracy- which is probably why they're not staying. O.K. Hugs and kisses from London-Alex.

[ 03-04-2003: Message edited by: Alex London ]</p>

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post #222 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:
Since the U.N. was officially established in 1945, there have been dozens of cases in which (fully sovereign) member states have attacked other (fully sovereign) member states, without asking the U.N. for any authorisation.
Good guys as well as bad guys still have the right to fight each other.
<hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Not without a valid reason. Sorry.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's your opinion, dependent on what you deem valid.
Fact is that U.N. member states have been known to fight each other since 1945, for reasons they might have deemed valid, or not.
Diplomacy and war are no examples of gentlemanly sportsmanship.

[quote]Now, I'm no legal expert for international treaties, conventions, or concordats. But if the U.S.A. is currently in any breach of any of its signed commitments, why don't you sue them on that caps locked court you mentioned? <hr></blockquote>
[quote]<strong>
Sue them? Don't you think they have enough financial difficulties?</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's their problem.

[ 03-04-2003: Message edited by: Immanuel Goldstein ]</p>
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post #223 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Alex London:
<strong>Edited for exhausted intemperate langauge ( ihaven't slept properly in weeks)</strong><hr></blockquote>

LOL! XXX OOO

[quote]Originally posted by Alex London:
<strong>Bunge, let's start over. I don't see the shields as defending democratic principles, you do. I agree they are using democratic principles and of course they should if they feel strongly about something, my point was thet they were not going to achieve much by going to a brutal dictatorship to defend democracy- which is probably why they're not staying. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Cool. I think we're all in agreement that they won't really accomplish anything, I just thought it was insane to start a thread like this.

You seem to agree that the shields should step up and do what they are/were doing since they feel strongly about it. Most people here see them with disdain simply because of ideological differences, not because the shields are doing something wrong.

I just thought that was kind of an ignorant position for most people here to take. Stand up for what you believe in, and that's what they're doing. To criticise that deserves criticism I think.

As for helping Saddam, I think it's obvious to anyone willing to have a legitimate discussion about this that they're trying to help ordinary Iraqi citizens, not the military. Hence, they're leaving because they're not being allowed to 'protect' the citizens.
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post #224 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:
<strong>
Fact is that U.N. member states have been known to fight each other since 1945, for reasons they might have deemed valid, or not.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, and criminals get away with murder everyday. That doesn't make it legal.
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post #225 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:
Fact is that U.N. member states have been known to fight each other since 1945, for reasons they might have deemed valid, or not.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>Yeah, and criminals get away with murder everyday. That doesn't make it legal.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Murder is illegal.
War is legal.
When it comes to relations between sovereign states there is no frameowrk comparable to that of the law and order which exist between individuals within a sovereign state.
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post #226 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:
<strong>
Murder is illegal.
War is legal. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Killing is legal, under the right circumstances be it via tanks or otherwise.

Murder by definition is illegal. Illegitimate wars are, by definition, just as illegal.
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post #227 of 450
Is the UN involved with international law, either making or enforcing?
post #228 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:
Murder is illegal.
War is legal.
<hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>Killing is legal, under the right circumstances be it via tanks or otherwise.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Given that you talk of tanks and the such, it implies a combat situation. Killing between combatants, in a combat situation, is of course, legal, since war itself is legal.

[quote]<strong>Murder by definition is illegal.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Murder, as legally defined by the laws of the country where it occurs, is illegal.
[quote]<strong>Illegitimate wars are, by definition, just as illegal.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is no universal legislature outlawing wars, or defining them as illegimate or not. There are treaties, conventions, charters, protocols, and other such official commitments, to which only the signatory states are bound to abide by. That's what is referred to by international law.

But you keep apllying a false analogy equating international law between states, and the law of the land within a state.

[ 03-04-2003: Message edited by: Immanuel Goldstein ]</p>
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post #229 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:
<strong>
But you keep apllying a false analogy equating international law between states, and the law of the land within a state. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Except that here in the United States, we are bound by our Constitution by the treaties we sign.

Tanks don't make a war legal.
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post #230 of 450
"There is no universal legislature outlawing wars, or defining them as illegimate or not. "

What part of that isn't sinking in with you??? Are you more worried about "tanks" or terms of legitimacy? Quit jumping around when you get cornered, and just face the music for once. Honestly!...
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post #231 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>Except that here in the United States, we are bound by our Constitution by the treaties we sign.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I see, that is the We Are Oh So Special And Unique(1) clause, which many of your countrymen fancy.
There are scores of other countries in the world outside your borders which are by their own internal legislations, bound to their signed international commitments. However, what seems to escape your attention, is the fact that there is no treaty, convention, or any other such international commitment outlawing war, to be found.
For the very simple reason that it would require an international legislative body with authority over the entire planet; which is not to be found either (well, until I and my co-conspirators take over this joint, that is).

[quote]<strong>Tanks don't make a war legal.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, they just make it applicable. Without them it would be inapplicable yet still legal, like a toothless bulldog is still a bulldog.

(1) To which the standard answer is often: But of course you're special and unique! Just like all the other kids of the world.

[ 03-04-2003: Message edited by: Immanuel Goldstein ]</p>
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post #232 of 450
Thread Starter 
Wow, this thread certainly took off. I am glad to see that people are concerned about this. I just wish that they could understand the reason i actually posted it. It is not because I hope to see more people killed. Not because I am for or against the war. It is because these people think that with their lives they can stop the UN army from doing a war the best way they know how. Destroy essential services, yes even those that are used by civilians, and demoralize the enemy so that they are more willing to surrender sooner. Just because some peace movement type has parked his dope smking butt (it is in the story, not made up) at a power plant does not mean that target becomes magically protected. If war happens he better be prepared to lose his life for what he thinks he believes in. I just do not think that many of these people live in the real world. And if they stay in Iraq, we may find that they will die in it. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
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post #233 of 450
Well it appears you won't have to worry about it now that these human shields are doing a great impression of the gringo vamoose out of Iraq. FNC is having a field day over it- almost satirically.
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post #234 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:
<strong>There is no universal legislature outlawing wars, or defining them as illegimate or not. There are treaties, conventions, charters, protocols, and other such official commitments, to which only the signatory states are bound to abide by. That's what is referred to by ?international law?.

(...)

However, what seems to escape your attention, is the fact that there is no treaty, convention, or any other such international commitment outlawing war, to be found.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Firstly its doesn't require every state in the world to sign a treaty to call it international. Just as no democracy has a 100% of its people participate in its political processes. You logic is flawed to the extent that all your saying is that the few countries who haven't signed the UN Charter don't have to abide by it. The same logic used by; was the <a href="http://www.michiganmilitia.com/" target="_blank">Michigan Militia?</a>

Secondly, they are more than treaties. They are the result of hundreds of years of evolution of democratic principles. With your immense historical knowledge I'm frankly surprised that you seem so ignorant of this. To say there is "no universal legislature" is totally irrelevant. All laws are in principle artificial constructions.

The aim of Public International Law has been to "elaborate instruments for settling crises peacefully, preventing wars and codifying rules of warfare." and like I said, this goes back over a hundred years.
It builds on the principles of national sovereignty. Found in many democratic constitutions, including the American and French.

Modern Public international law became more than just a set of treaties with the Nuremberg process. The international war tribunal set up at the end of WWII to deal with the crimes of the nazi-regime. Nuremberg was very much legislation. Ribbentrop was executed, Göring took his own life to avoid the same destiny.
The principles of Nuremberg made way for the <a href="http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html" target="_blank">Universal declaration of Human Rights</a>, one of the key pillars of Public International Law.

Are you prepared to write of Human Rights as "protocols and charters"? You don't see it going deeper than that?

The framework for use of force in international law is laid down in the UN Charter, signed by all parties in this conflict. And described by the International Court of Justice. They are quite easy to find.

You need to be careful where you thread here, because this is about the principles of Nuremberg, and in a broader view of democracy itself.
By calling it "just a set treaties", you risk "throwing the baby out with the tub-water" so to speak.
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post #235 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:
<strong>Given that you talk of tanks and the such, it implies a combat situation. Killing between combatants, in a combat situation, is of course, legal, since war itself is legal.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You give yourself away. define combatants, please.

Where would you go looking for the source material?
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post #236 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Randycat99:
<strong>"There is no universal legislature outlawing wars, or defining them as illegimate or not. "

What part of that isn't sinking in with you??? </strong><hr></blockquote>

When did I say that wars are illegal? Never. That's called a straw-man argument. Immanuel is avoiding what I'm arguing and trying to redirect my point.

EDIT: Corrected spelling.

[ 03-04-2003: Message edited by: bunge ]</p>
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post #237 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>
If war happens he better be prepared to lose his life for what he thinks he believes in. I just do not think that many of these people live in the real world. And if they stay in Iraq, we may find that they will die in it. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I believe they are prepared for that. If people really thought it would stop the bombing there would be far more than 200 human shields going over there.
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post #238 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
define combatants, please. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Human Shields? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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post #239 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>You give yourself away. define combatants, please.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When you're a soldier participating in combat (that's where armed people are fighting each other, you know?), you're a combatant, and any armed person from the other side participating in the combat is a combatant too.

[quote]<strong>Where would you go looking for the source material?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Planet Earth would be a good start.
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post #240 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein:
<strong>When you're a soldier participating in combat (that's where armed people are fighting each other, you know?), you're a combatant, and any armed person from the other side participating in the combat is a combatant too.</strong><hr></blockquote>
define soldier.

No, sorry, its just not that clear cut. the 200 people in Guantanamo are evidence of that. Apparently International Law is good enough to be used in classifying those guys as "illegal combatants". (correct term?)

[quote] Planet Earth would be a good start. <hr></blockquote>Then get down on it.
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