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Apple may begin to phase out legacy 13-inch white MacBook - Page 2

post #41 of 89
They mentioned that HDDs are constrained and prices will not be dropping as favourably as they have in the past.
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post #42 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I see a bunch of you guys saying $799. What if Apple can't make it for $799? Has anyone thought of that? There always seems to be an assumption that prices can be lowered to whatever people want it to be.

Other companies sell higher-specced machines for less. Apple would make a profit off the Macbook at $499.
post #43 of 89
I had the original 13" MBA purchased the first month.. When the 11" with 128G SSD and 4G RAM (and a slightly faster processor came out at about $500 less nearly 3 years later I traded up and sold my 13". I'm a very happy guy. My wife has the mid 2009 MBA (13") with 128 SSD and loves it still.

And I've decided to buy my college bound daughter a new MBA, but not knowing the exact specs yet, not sure which one...11 or 13"? definitely 4 G Ram and 128 or 256 G storage. My first MBA had 80G HDD and I never used more than half. I'm writing this on my new 11" with 128G and have nearly 60 available.

Do people really store movies after they've watched them? My first NEC notebook had a 20MB (YES, MB) hdd.

Even without the cloud how much GIGO does one need?
post #44 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

Other companies sell higher-specced machines for less. Apple would make a profit off the Macbook at $499.

But why should they?
post #45 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifan View Post

Apple has the highest profit margins of any PC manufacturer. The Macbook is being profitably sold for $899 to students right now. If they wouldn't make money at $799 I'd be shocked because:

a: 1280x800 13 inch screens are not expensive to manufacture
b: Using an i3 would remove the need to also have a 320m (I could be wrong on this)
c: 250 GB harddrives are dirt cheap
d: Apple has mastered the production of touch-components for trackpads
e: It's made out of plastic

I know that simply listing component prices is idiotic for laptops as well-designed as Apple's, but I don't doubt they're collecting at least $200 per Macbook even with student discounts.

You've come up with a lot of nothing. When you show us what those prices would be, with some numbers, then I'll listen. Right now, you're making guesses on everything, and forgetting the major parts of all of it.

What about the fixed costs past the parts you're talking about? Manufacturing, boxing, shipping, advertising, support. Distributers cut, retailers cut, etc. Parts cost about 25% to a bit over 30% of a products cost, at most. Apple gets about 33% operating margins. Their highest margin product is the iPhone. So of the 21.5% net margin They got last year, the MacBook likely got about 15%. so, how much can Apple cut from 15% net and still make a good profit? 5%? if they bring parts costs down by 10%, and that would be a lot, it would represent about 5% of the total product cost.

So at most, Apple could bring the price down by about 10%. but it would be a noticeably cheaper machine. That's just not Apple.
post #46 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierrajeff View Post

Totally agree. [In April, I purchased a 15" Windows-based laptop, built-in WiFi, DVD drive, etc, for $700 -- and that was with me walking into the Best Buy interested in buying an Apple product. (And no, a salesman didn't talk me out of it... though their Apple guy was pretty non-functional; it simply boiled down to price and features.)

Apple could get into a lot more homes (meaning: a lot more potential buyers of additional Apple products) if they had something that would compete with this sort of laptop on a price basis.

Apple isn't interested in getting into more homes by making their products as crappy as PCs. In fact, they have said many times that they just won't do it.

Higher specs don't make for a better machine. They don't make for a longer lasting machine, and they can't come close to Apples service and support.

If people want a cheap PC, then let them buy them.
post #47 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

  1. You seem to be saying they 1) can't drop the price of the MacBook any farther than $999 and still make a solid profit [yet there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to support they can and should], 2) that they can't make $999 computer with aluminum [yet they do with both the 11" MBA and eve cheaper Mac mini which can be seen as "over engineered" to be milled from a solid block of aluminium], and 3) that they will willfully remove the MB line from their ranks to support only the MBA and MBP lines. Is this correct?

  1. There is NO evidence that they can do this. I don't care for "anecdotal evidence". That's worthless. A few people who know nothing speculating about how they would cut the cost.

    You're giving bad examples. The 11" MBa is a much smaller, and lighter machine, without an optical drive and a smaller battery, with that smaller, and cheaper screen. Doesn't compare.

    Then the Mac Mini is an even worse example. A simple square metal piece, around a very small computer without a screen, keyboard or a recharger. The cheapest is still close enough in price.

    Quote:
  2. All segments are special cases but what is so special about the Mac mini that would make it's aluminum cheaper and more worthwhile to produce over the MB? Are you suggesting the MB sells less than Mac mini, a desktop PC?
You're confusing the issue. As I've explained, the Mini is a very different machine, and the case costs a fraction of the aluminum cases of the Air.
post #48 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

There is plenty of evidence that they can lower the price and still make a profit. The reality is this, the extra quality in a MacBook does not cost that much. One only has to look at similar HP hardware to realize Apple can move pricing downwards. The fundamental reality is that the hardware is the same, with a few extensions thrown in by Apple.

Now I don't expect Apple to meet HPs prices, but I do believe they can hit $800 without loosing margin. They would do that by trimming out the fat and going to AMD. Frankly AMD with it's Fusion line would make for a very capable MacBook. Especially if they can offer up an SSD boot drive.

There is no evidence, just assumptions.
post #49 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

Other companies sell higher-specced machines for less. Apple would make a profit off the Macbook at $499.

You know nothing about Apples costs. Those higher specced machines are still cheaply made, use poor part quality, have much poorer service and much lower satisfaction rates.

It's a laugh that Apple could make a MB for $499. You're living in a dreamland.
post #50 of 89
I think Apple are going to simplify their Mac offerings over time. I expect to see the MB go and then the Mac Pro. Macs are slowly contributing a smaller share of Apple's sales revenue. The iPhone and iPad already contribute more to Apple's income than Macs.
post #51 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I think Apple are going to simplify their Mac offerings over time. I expect to see the MB go and then the Mac Pro. Macs are slowly contributing a smaller share of Apple's sales revenue. The iPhone and iPad already contribute more to Apple's income than Macs.

I don't what's going to happen, but we're in for an interesting several years ahead.

We've often spoken about Apples' naming conventions for the Mac OS. Now, we've reached the pinnacle of catdom, the Lion. What's after that? Well, if Apple is only going to use cats that exist today, and they've gone to the top, perhaps that's telling us something.

It could be that the next version of the OS will be so different, and integrated with iOS, that it will be something else. Time for a new naming convention. If Apple has a contiguous system, from the iPhone through a high end tower, that would be different, and significant.

MS is trying this with Win 8 in a very crude and frankly, ugly way. If Apple does it, it will be subtle, and smooth. The next two years or so will be difficult to wait through.
post #52 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't what's going to happen, but we're in for an interesting several years ahead.

We've often spoken about Apples' naming conventions for the Mac OS. Now, we've reached the pinnacle of catdom, the Lion. What's after that? Well, if Apple is only going to use cats that exist today, and they've gone to the top, perhaps that's telling us something.

It could be that the next version of the OS will be so different, and integrated with iOS, that it will be something else. Time for a new naming convention. If Apple has a contiguous system, from the iPhone through a high end tower, that would be different, and significant.

MS is trying this with Win 8 in a very crude and frankly, ugly way. If Apple does it, it will be subtle, and smooth. The next two years or so will be difficult to wait through.

What I think would be interesting is a an iPad that has the usual iOS touch interface but when plugged into an external monitor with a TB port and synced with a BT keyboard and mouse, has a more Mac OS user interface optimized for that type of input. I hope that's where Apple is heading.
post #53 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

What I think would be interesting is a an iPad that has the usual iOS touch interface but when plugged into an external monitor with a TB port and synced with a BT keyboard and mouse, has a more Mac OS user interface optimized for that type of input. I hope that's where Apple is heading.

If you have a touch screen you don't want a mouse, and if you have a mouse you don't want a touch interface. They're such different paradigms that any software that works naturally with one is going to be bleeding orrible with the other.

A mouse or for that matter a trackpad demands a pointer, which is anathema to a touchscreen.
post #54 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

What I think would be interesting is a an iPad that has the usual iOS touch interface but when plugged into an external monitor with a TB port and synced with a BT keyboard and mouse, has a more Mac OS user interface optimized for that type of input. I hope that's where Apple is heading.

I hope they're heading to a back and forth kind of system.

My idea for this is named uOS, Universal Operating System. It would come with everything. But when installing on a device, it would load only the parts the device could handle. When moving from a phone to an iPad, there would be more, and a more sophisticated overall system. Moving to a notebook or bigger machine, everything would be available.

But if you plugged in accessories, it would recognize that, and the appropriate drivers and API's would be activated.

The concept would be a smooth increase in power the higher you went, opening up areas as you go, such as a file system, drop down menus, mice, etc. I think people would find that easy and natural to use.

All along, you could use touch. I imagine that by that time, the slide down iMac, or whatever it would become, would allow touch on a full sized device, and Apple would have solved the problems some think exist now.

Obviously, this concept needs to be refined.
post #55 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They mentioned that HDDs are constrained and prices will not be dropping as favourably as they have in the past.

I think that's primarily the SSD HDs though.
post #56 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

If you have a touch screen you don't want a mouse, and if you have a mouse you don't want a touch interface. They're such different paradigms that any software that works naturally with one is going to be bleeding orrible with the other.

A mouse or for that matter a trackpad demands a pointer, which is anathema to a touchscreen.

I don't know about that. Everything I've done today in posting, I've done on my iPad. I've got Apples' keyboard for the iPad, and it works well enough. But, honestly, when using that keyboard, a mouse, or preferably my trackball seems much better. The problem is that you're no longer on the screen, and reaching to move the cursor and such is more of a pain. Even now, I dislike the fact that you can't move the cursor without deleting something, or moving to the right.

I don't see why they can't be integrated. Maybe if Apple fixed this keyboard, and shrunk those oversized numerical keys, and added keys to move the cursor, it would be better. I honestly don't know why those keys have to be so big. I'd much prefer to have a @, & and a $ on the front. Then, on the top line, where the Previous and next keys are, we could have the keyboard key.

Problem for me is that I hit those three keys too many times while typing.
post #57 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

I think that's primarily the SSD HDs though.

Are you saying that you think they mean that SSD prices are going to be falling more slowly?

I think they're falling more quickly. Memory is falling rapidly right now, and OWCs' SSDs are falling a bit more all the time. The 480, which was $1,500 is now $859, for example.
post #58 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The concept would be a smooth increase in power the higher you went, opening up areas as you go, such as a file system, drop down menus, mice, etc. I think people would find that easy and natural to use.

It's not a question of power - it's a question of idiom. Adding mice to a touch screen would be like adding the Finnish case system to English.
post #59 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't know about that. Everything I've done today in posting, I've done on my iPad. I've got Apples' keyboard for the iPad, and it works well enough.

Keyboards are fine, or at least should be - everytime you were entering text on a pad you were doing it via a virtual keyboard anyway so the idioms match up. The mouse idiom is completely different though. What is the touchscreen equivalent of double-click? What is the mouse equivalent of pinch to zoom? What's the touchscreen mouseover? What's the mouse pan for an embedded-pane? There are no good answers and the joy of iOS was that it never occurred to you to ask because it was designed with touch idioms from the ground up.

There's no good technical solution to this because it's not really a technical problem - it's a human/machine interface problem.

post #60 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Are you saying that you think they mean that SSD prices are going to be falling more slowly?

I think they're falling more quickly. Memory is falling rapidly right now, and OWCs' SSDs are falling a bit more all the time. The 480, which was $1,500 is now $859, for example.

I may be misremembering, I'm sure I read somewhere that NAND prices were staying stubbornly high due to unexpected demand for FLASH in SANs and other data-centre applications.
post #61 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartiNZ View Post

Gotta say, I hit cmd-ctrl-d just to make sure I wasn't missing something major .

Yep, I also checked the dictionary. Also because I'm not American. But the autocorrect can make funny mistakes.

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post #62 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple's white polycarbonate MacBook, which has long served as the company's entry-level notebook, may be slowly phased out this year, according to one insider.

Analyst Ming-Chi Kuo of Concord Securities shared with AppleInsider Tuesday that industry checks show that Apple's internal shipment forecast for the white MacBook suspiciously drops-off in August of this year, which leads him to believe that the notebook may go "end of life" around the same time.

In his view, Apple's $999 MacBook Air is a more than suitable replacement for the identically priced white MacBook. An updated MacBook Air with 128GB minimum hard drive space is expected to see an introduction as early as Wednesday.

Kuo said that monthly shipments for the Core 2 Duo MacBook have fallen to between 80,000 and 100,000 units, and therefore comprised less than 10 percent of Apple's total Mac shipments during the first half of 2011. Though Apple continues to offer the yesteryear notebook as part of its Mac portfolio, this data indicates consumers are proactively choosing notebooks with the latest technology, like the new MacBook Airs or MacBook Pros.

While some industry-watchers believe the white MacBook could continue to serve as a low-cost, entry-level Mac with a price reduction (similar to what Apple has done with the iPhone 3GS), it's uncertain that the Cupertino-based company remains interested in continuing to market the hefty, previous-generation design alongside its sleek new Mac OS Lion operating system.

AppleInsider first revealed in late June that supply of the white MacBook was severely constrained. Weeks later, stock-outs remain at resellers like Amazon, where the notebook is advertised to ship within two to five weeks. However, that's the same lead time Amazon has reflected on an on-again, off-again basis for the past three weeks. In fact, just two of seven authorized resellers tracked in the Mac Pricing Guide (below) are reflecting availability.



The Intel-powered MacBook was first launched in May of 2006, replacing the PowerPC-based iBook and PowerBook. Sporting a 13-inch display, it originally came in both black and white flavors.

The notebook was redesigned in 2009, when it was given a unibody construction like the MacBook Pro. The new notebook was also given an LED-backlit display, integrated battery and multi-touch glass trackpad.



While the MacBook stood alone at the $999 price point among Apple's notebooks for years, that changed in 2010, when the MacBook Air was redesigned and expanded to include an 11-inch model. Upon its introduction, that $999 notebook saw strong sales as consumers took to the thin-and-light device.

Advantages for the current $999 MacBook Air over the existing MacBook include a unibody aluminum enclosure, and a thin-and-light design with fast and reliable solid-state flash memory storage. But the entry-level MacBook Air also has some disadvantages when compared to the white MacBook, namely a smaller 11-inch screen and fewer ports, including lack of Ethernet.

This would be wise on apple's part as the new MBA triumphs over the existing white mac book and at the same price it is a no briainer
post #63 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

If you have a touch screen you don't want a mouse, and if you have a mouse you don't want a touch interface. They're such different paradigms that any software that works naturally with one is going to be bleeding orrible with the other.

A mouse or for that matter a trackpad demands a pointer, which is anathema to a touchscreen.

I agree that's why I'm suggesting a user interface that adapts depending upon the user input. I didn't say it would be easy.
post #64 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I hope they're heading to a back and forth kind of system.

My idea for this is named uOS, Universal Operating System. It would come with everything. But when installing on a device, it would load only the parts the device could handle. When moving from a phone to an iPad, there would be more, and a more sophisticated overall system. Moving to a notebook or bigger machine, everything would be available.

But if you plugged in accessories, it would recognize that, and the appropriate drivers and API's would be activated.

The concept would be a smooth increase in power the higher you went, opening up areas as you go, such as a file system, drop down menus, mice, etc. I think people would find that easy and natural to use.

All along, you could use touch. I imagine that by that time, the slide down iMac, or whatever it would become, would allow touch on a full sized device, and Apple would have solved the problems some think exist now.

Obviously, this concept needs to be refined.

That's exactly what I have in mind but you said it much better.
post #65 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

It's not a question of power - it's a question of idiom. Adding mice to a touch screen would be like adding the Finnish case system to English.

That's your opinion, and that's fine. I don't agree. I use my iPad hours a day, and there are times I would be very happy with my trackball.

Do you have an iPad?
post #66 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Keyboards are fine, or at least should be - everytime you were entering text on a pad you were doing it via a virtual keyboard anyway so the idioms match up. The mouse idiom is completely different though. What is the touchscreen equivalent of double-click? What is the mouse equivalent of pinch to zoom? What's the touchscreen mouseover? What's the mouse pan for an embedded-pane? There are no good answers and the joy of iOS was that it never occurred to you to ask because it was designed with touch idioms from the ground up.

There's no good technical solution to this because it's not really a technical problem - it's a human/machine interface problem.


Well, again, your just being argumentative, and it's only your opinion. A mouse hover could be very easily accommodated if apple wanted to do that. There is no reason why anything couldn't be done.

Sometimes Apple goes to the extreme to force people into doing something their way, but it's not always the best way, if it has to be done that way every time.

You have a very limited way of looking at things.
post #67 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

I may be misremembering, I'm sure I read somewhere that NAND prices were staying stubbornly high due to unexpected demand for FLASH in SANs and other data-centre applications.

No, prices have been dropping the past 6 months or so. Not as fast as RAM though. What I see at OWc is that SSd prices drop in lockstep with their RAM pricing, though much less, as an SSD is much more than a stick of RAM in complexity.
post #68 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I agree that's why I'm suggesting a user interface that adapts depending upon the user input. I didn't say it would be easy.

And that why I've been suggesting that user choice gets more sophisticated as the devices become more sophisticated. He thinks I'm suggesting a mouse with an iPhone.
post #69 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

That's exactly what I have in mind but you said it much better.

Thanks.
post #70 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Or, Apple could just be drawing down on inventories for a product refresh. I think the biggest advantage of the MacBook is the optical drive.

Props to Ming-Chi Kuo. His kungfu is looking pretty good after some decent hits.
post #71 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Apple isn't interested in getting into more homes by making their products as crappy as PCs. In fact, they have said many times that they just won't do it.

Higher specs don't make for a better machine. They don't make for a longer lasting machine, and they can't come close to Apples service and support.

If people want a cheap PC, then let them buy them.

PC does not equal crappy. Get over that now. I'd prefer Apple, but my new laptop is pretty whiz-bang plus a bag of chips. It's not "crap" just because it's not Apple.
post #72 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Now, we've reached the pinnacle of catdom, the Lion.
What's after that?
... they've gone to the top, perhaps that's telling us something.

Oh, absolutely.

Consider ....
iOS4 will've been with us approx. 1 1/2 year -- June10-Oct11
This will be the case wih iOS5 -- a 1 1/2 year wait until the next one -- that's just so Lion can be said to've at least lasted more than a year.
And what will be the "Next One"?
A combination of OS X+iOS
iOS
+
OS X
=
iOS i X

One OS to rule them all ....
Desktops/Notebooks/Tablets/iPods.
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post #73 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaryMG View Post

Oh, absolutely.

Consider ....
iOS4 will've been with us approx. 1 1/2 year -- June10-Oct11
This will be the case wih iOS5 -- a 1 1/2 year wait until the next one -- that's just so Lion can be said to've at least lasted more than a year.
And what will be the "Next One"?
A combination of OS X+iOS
iOS
+
OS X
=
iOS i X

One OS to rule them all ....
Desktops/Notebooks/Tablets/iPods.

I thought they might do a foundation upgrade next in a tick/tock method (not unlike Intel CPU releases) with the next version being Mountain Lion, just as Leopard moved to Snow Leopard, but with the new GAAP accounting on Lion there is no need for that now.
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post #74 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierrajeff View Post

PC does not equal crappy. Get over that now. I'd prefer Apple, but my new laptop is pretty whiz-bang plus a bag of chips. It's not "crap" just because it's not Apple.

what did you buy ??
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post #75 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by justfine View Post

But why should they?

No; that's not Apple's way (and, obviously, we can see that Apple's never going to produce a sub-$999 notebook now). But it's flat-out wrong to say that can't.
post #76 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierrajeff View Post

PC does not equal crappy. Get over that now. I'd prefer Apple, but my new laptop is pretty whiz-bang plus a bag of chips. It's not "crap" just because it's not Apple.

That's the semi official definition of "PC", piece of crap.

Seriously though, Pcs just aren't made as well, the support isn't as good, etc. You get what you pay for.
post #77 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I thought they might do a foundation upgrade next in a tick/tock method (not unlike Intel CPU releases) with the next version being Mountain Lion, just as Leopard moved to Snow Leopard, but with the new GAAP accounting on Lion there is no need for that now.

A Mountain Lion is a much lessor cat. It would be a step backwards. I do believe that the next version will be even more radical. They have to work us into it. To do it all at once would be too disorienting.

How about Elephant? It's really big, it stomps on everything, and it has no rivals.
post #78 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

A Mountain Lion is a much lessor cat. It would be a step backwards. I do believe that the next version will be even more radical. They have to work us into it. To do it all at once would be too disorienting.

How about Elephant? It's really big, it stomps on everything, and it has no rivals.

Not a cat, though.

We're at Lion, so the only way we can step up is Mac OS X 10.8 Saber.

Or just end OS X and finally get a fully multitouch desktop OS.

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post #79 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

A Mountain Lion is a much lessor cat. It would be a step backwards. I do believe that the next version will be even more radical. They have to work us into it. To do it all at once would be too disorienting.

How about Elephant? It's really big, it stomps on everything, and it has no rivals.

1) A snow leopard is smaller than a leopard so by your reasoning Mac OS X 10.6 was a "step backwards" from Mac OS X 10.5. But it wasn't; it was aesthetically similar but the unpinnings were greatly redesigned, hence they used the same codename with an additional word. If they do a tick/took method again it's not unprecedented for Apple to do the same thing again.

2) As long as it's Mac OS X not Mac OS XI I don't think they'll move from the cat names. I also don't think elephant would be used as there arent many paciderms to choose from.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Not a cat, though.

We're at Lion, so the only way we can step up is Mac OS X 10.8 Saber.

Or just end OS X and finally get a fully multitouch desktop OS.

1) Sabertooth tiger would indicate that Mac OS X is long in the tooth.

2) Mac OS X has been multitouch for years.
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post #80 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

2) Mac OS X has been multitouch for years.

Yep. I said fully.

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