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Chinese counterfeiting extends to full-blown fake Apple retail stores - Page 2

post #41 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Do the Chinese have no shame? This is beyond pathetic. It's also quite ironic that China is where a lot of real Apple products are assembled. China is truly the country of zero innovation and cheap, shameless, third rate, crappy counterfeits, AKA crap.

It's also too bad that the Chinese scalpers here in the US are all too real.

The Chinese might as well hold a fake keynote next week, with a fake WDC following that.

At least the Chinese food store by me still has real Chinese people working in it.

Really now, so if I read on the news that the country that spends the most on illegal drugs is the U.S. then I can tar and feather the whole country and say "Do the Americans have no shame? Are they all just shooting up on crack and meth over there? The U.S. truly is the country of junkies and pushers."
post #42 of 90
Its funny how people here think Samsung "ripped" off Apple when you completely turn a blind eye to these types of things.

Kind of ironic eh?

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post #43 of 90
...yet hardly any different than the dozens of counterfeit booths that I see every day in New York.

As long as there are idolaters, there will be others taking advantage of them.

Vanitas vanitatum, et omnia vanitas.
post #44 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

Unbelievable.

I am sick and tired of fucking China copying everything we do in our country. Support the USA all the way not China!
post #45 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


priceless



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post #46 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

Really now, so if I read on the news that the country that spends the most on illegal drugs is the U.S. then I can tar and feather the whole country and say "Do the Americans have no shame? Are they all just shooting up on crack and meth over there? The U.S. truly is the country of junkies and pushers."

Apples and oranges. This is not some hidden, underground activity. This is a retail store operating out in the open. I don't remember seeing any retail chain stores called "Crack R Us" in the US, operating with the full knowledge and consent of the authorities.

And so what if the US uses a lot on so called illegal drugs? Marijuana for example is big business, and marijuana is a good thing, so any country that has a huge marijuana business is something that puts that country in a positive light. Meth and crack = bad. Marijuana = awesome.
post #47 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Give me a break. You don't think the hundreds of thousands of indirect workers that are employed in China - thanks to Apple- and the untold billions of dollars of business done in China - thanks to Apple - gives Apple a little bit of leverage to tell the Chinese bigwigs to swat an irritating mosquito? Come on.

It's unclear just how good Apple's connections are in China, there are some clues that they are intent on good relations with the Chinese government. Continually bundling Taiwanese sales in as part of 'Greater China' is one.

Whether they'd bother using any of that political capital on swatting something this small though is questionable.
post #48 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

...yet hardly any different than the dozens of counterfeit booths that I see every day in New York.

It is different. Those street peddlers in New York selling fake rolexes and junk to dumb tourists is hardly the same thing as operating an entire retail store. And the NYPD cracks down on those street peddlers all of the time. I've seen it with my own eyes.

Since the Chinese counterfeit store is allowed to operate, that means that the Chinese authorities don't give a damn, and they support counterfeiting and criminal activity.
post #49 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I am sick and tired of fucking China copying everything we do in our country. Support the USA all the way not China!

... and if you think for two seconds about it, it wouldn't have been possible if US corporations didn't export all the manufacturing to Asia...

Maybe the ones to blame are closer to you than you imagine.
post #50 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Since the Chinese counterfeit store is allowed to operate, that means that the Chinese authorities don't give a damn, and they support counterfeiting and criminal activity.

Or they don't view it as such.
post #51 of 90
No big deal - its an Apple reseller.
There are tons of them.

There is nothing strange about this at all in China.

China has lots of official and unofficial stores selling stuff.
This one happens to be a reseller in Kunming, and the guy that wrote the post and the people that replied have misunderstood..

As said above, Shanghai used to have lots including one on Huai Hai lu that I continually had to tell people not to use as they were useless, but looked exactly like a "real" store.

Actual retail Apple stores in China can be identified by the following:

Staff beating on the customers, riots and broken glass (Beijing)#1
People falling in the poorly designed 1" moat around the edge which was cleverly made level with the ground so you don't see it. (IFC Shanghai)#2
...or looking up ladies skirts as the staircase was made with transparent glass (IFC Shanghai)#3.

#1 Beijing's infamous iPhone 4 opening event.
#2 IFC - Fixed - they now have a security guard around the outside telling you not to fall in.
#3 IFC - Fixed - they put some opaque tape over the overly designed staircase.

The only apple "fake" products I've seen are things like iPhone cables and power supplies. There are things that look like Apple products - but they're obviously homages rather than "real". Eg the Android or MTK Shanzhai phones or the Atom based similar to Air lookalikes (which actually run as Hackintoshes rather well from what I've seen).

Resellers whether authorized by Apple or not, typically sell the actual real product.

There are 2 ways to get product here - Grey market, and Official.

Grey market pricing used to be the way to go, because

1) Apple Support in China pre 2010 sucked, so the grey market support was often FAR better than the legit support.
2) The pricing was WAY cheaper than the "local" overpriced product.

eg

Say a Macbook in HK was about 10,000HK$; the China price would be 15,000 - for an older model.

Most "Apple" stores in China will serve a variety of products not sold here.
eg iPhones (when they weren't available) etc.
Its supply and demand.

People want them, so stores sell them.
Like many companies in China, where the official supply chain couldn't cut it, the unofficial supply chain stepped in.

For years HK sold more Mac's per capita than a lot of places - purely as that was all getting shipped to China...

A few of the largest Mac sellers here by volume aren't even Apple Authorized. That said, their support was above and beyond the official support here as they actually gave a shit, unlike Apple pre 2010.

Oh well, at least I can finally think about closing http://www.badappleservice.cn now haha.


This is really on the same lines as the game stores on almost every block in China selling XBOX, PS3, WII etc. None of those are "officially" sold here, but every game store has them.

Same like iPhones - there is a huge market for iPhones here. The official iPhone carrier here has way less iPhones on their network than the major carrier China Telecom.

China Telecom used to post the occasional stat about iPhone use - 2g era was already 1 million odd users, and that was years before they even started selling iphones here officially.

Most of the iPhone, iPad releases have been brought over to China and sold in their millions prior to official release. Apple has gotten a bit wiser though, and twigged that hey - there is a huge market here - and if they don't fill it, unofficial channels will.

Many countries have exactly the same situation, and the same issues.
So all you [expletive deleted] beep beep beep americans going - ooh bad, should actually learn the situation, why it is why it is, and learn that its all supply and demand. If there is demand, there is supply...
post #52 of 90
I think you mean Stive Jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by siriusvector View Post

Will fake Steve Jobs be visiting this store?
post #53 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I am sick and tired of fucking China copying everything we do in our country. Support the USA all the way not China!

Good luck trying to buy anything made in the USA today.
post #54 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMacGuy View Post

Good luck trying to buy anything made in the USA today.

I bought an audio interface for one of my Macs, 100% made in the USA, Apogee Duet.

But yeah, most things are not made in the USA, that is true.
post #55 of 90
A sharp eyed reader from Finland want's to post a note; Chinese stores are missing black Alvar Aalto bar chairs, which were designed in1935.
post #56 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by guch20 View Post

I'm wondering when we'll see a Microsoft Stoer popping up...

yeah, like there's a reason they'd want to do that!
post #57 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by oberpongo View Post

Does this mean the store is also selling counterfeit Apple Products? Or are they selling the real stuff and just counterfeiting the store look & feel?

This is what I'm wondering. I know they have good fakes. But some of that stuff looks so real. Certainly real enough to fool the individuals who work there into thinking they are selling real Apple products. I figure many of those employees must be Apple fans and at least own or have used a real Apple device. So I wonder if it's a copycat store selling real Apple products or KIRF outlet.
post #58 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash-reverse View Post

The. Funniest. Story. Ever. This. Year.

To even think the staffs he'll bent thinking they actually work for Apple is beyond hilarious. Not actually shocked but yes, shocking! What's next I don't know. Seems everything is possible in China. These people obviously don't care.

*addendum below

Wow, you can't have had many laughs this year if you think this is funny. I find it pretty alarming myself. I mean, we've no idea how widespread this is in China - there could be many more stoers (sic) like this. If customers think this is a legit Apple store and buy a barely functioning product, they'd be put off for life. It could damage Apple's reputation.
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post #59 of 90
Can I upgrade to Lino on my iCam?
post #60 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoppio View Post

...yet hardly any different than the dozens of counterfeit booths that I see every day in New York.

No, it's very different. All the are are electronics sales places that either sell knockoffs or grey market, or legit but cheap and old stuff. The names and windows are not set up to fool the visitor that they are entering any legit "company" store. 70% of the people entering, including tourists, know the whole score with that and the rest just thinks they're legit electronics stores, but they know they're not walking into Best Buy, even.

If you're talking about street sellers, street sellers that sell expensive fake electronics look like they're selling expensive fake electronics, so, very different.
post #61 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by skottichan View Post

Holy crap... China's selling counterfeit Apple products in counterfeit Apple Stores? I think this is the plot to Inception 2...



Dude...all I can say about this story is...WHAT. THE. F.
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post #62 of 90
"No big deal - its an Apple reseller.
There are tons of them."


----Uh...right.
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post #63 of 90
Microsoft should be offended!! The nerve of someone copying Microsoft's copying Apple. Not to mention that these stores actually have customers in them.
post #64 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

"No big deal - its an Apple reseller.
There are tons of them."


----Uh...right.

Uh yeah.

I live in China, do you?

I also read and write Chinese, and can do the cursory check to see how many stores in Kunming, on ooh, the Apple website.

http://www.apple.com.cn/reseller/loc...26118;明

Lets see - 13 resellers in Kunming alone (and we're talking a 3rd tier city at best here).


Fail.
The whole article is so full of fail to be honest.
Its an Apple reseller.

So they copied the look and feel - big whoop whoop.
They're still selling Apple product.
post #65 of 90
ROFLMAO. Brilliant. This is win, pure win! I am speechless beyond that.

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post #66 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

Unbelievable.

and apple is worried about google's android.....tsk, tsk.
[ooops, my bad. they should be worried. maybe they sell these products at this store]

http://www.gizchina.com/2010/07/30/q...ple-added-tax/


http://www.qingting.biz/index.php?ac...ntype=1&pdid=3
post #67 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanghailoz View Post

Uh yeah.

I live in China, do you?

I also read and write Chinese, and can do the cursory check to see how many stores in Kunming, on ooh, the Apple website.

http://www.apple.com.cn/reseller/loc...26118;明

Lets see - 13 resellers in Kunming alone (and we're talking a 3rd tier city at best here).


Fail.
The whole article is so full of fail to be honest.
Its an Apple reseller.

So they copied the look and feel - big whoop whoop.
They're still selling Apple product.

So rare to see someone on this who is reasonable and actually knows what they are talking about...

This looks no different than any number of Apple resellers here in Australia who in recent years have upgraded their retail look and feel to emulate the successful Apple store layout.
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post #68 of 90
I see nothing wrong with this shop at all. Apple has told its independent resellers and warranty service locations that must make all employees wear T shirts for the store they work for.They must conform to rules of look and feel just like the Apple stores. Unless the Computers they sell are counterfeit this all conforms to Apples guidelines of store front shops.
post #69 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanghailoz View Post

Uh yeah.

I live in China, do you?

I also read and write Chinese, and can do the cursory check to see how many stores in Kunming, on ooh, the Apple website.

http://www.apple.com.cn/reseller/loc...26118;明

Lets see - 13 resellers in Kunming alone (and we're talking a 3rd tier city at best here).


Fail.
The whole article is so full of fail to be honest.
Its an Apple reseller.

So they copied the look and feel - big whoop whoop.
They're still selling Apple product.

Bullshit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ameldrum1 View Post

So rare to see someone on this who is reasonable and actually knows what they are talking about...

This looks no different than any number of Apple resellers here in Australia who in recent years have upgraded their retail look and feel to emulate the successful Apple store layout.

Bullshit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sternapples53 View Post

I see nothing wrong with this shop at all. Apple has told its independent resellers and warranty service locations that must make all employees wear T shirts for the store they work for.They must conform to rules of look and feel just like the Apple stores. Unless the Computers they sell are counterfeit this all conforms to Apples guidelines of store front shops.

Bullshit.

The idea that Apple is cool with, or even encourages or requires its resellers to emulate Apple's own stores to the point that that a customer might imagine that they're in an actual Apple Store is bullshit, and laughable bullshit at that.

This is Apple we're talking about-- one of the most implacably controlling corporations on earth, willing to go to insane lengths to shape their customer's experience down to the smallest detail. And the idea is that they are fine with someone else doing a knock off of their stores, a knock off that Apple can't actually control, a knock off that might leave a customer with the impression that an Apple Store isn't exactly what Apple intended it to be?

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. The Apple Stores are just as much a part of the product experience as the hardware and software that Apple sells, and Apple would be as accommodating to counterfeit Apple Stores as they are to counterfeit iPads. It's one thing to imagine that Apple might want its resellers to maintain certain standards of fit and finish, entirely another to blithely assert that this particular obvious clone is business as usual.
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post #70 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morky View Post

I remember a similar story about a fake Nike factory built simultaneously with a real Nike factory. Same plans, same suppliers. They were producing REAL Nike shoes and selling them in easten Europe. I wonder if the goods in these stores are coming out the back door of Foxcon and other factories?

NEC was copied down to its corporate head quarters. I think that still beats the Apple store clone. The Chevy Aveo is also copied (minus safety equipment).
post #71 of 90
The reseller "conforms to Apples [sic] guidelines of store front shops".

Never mind the guideline that says Apple stores must actually be owned and operated by Apple Inc. and not brazen impostors. Who cares about that as long as the employees wear authentic-looking simulated T-shirts?

Concerned that fake computer from fake Stoer has fake OS that telegraphs your personal data to the people's hacker army? Apologize for defaming China.

Why should NEC care that crooks faked NEC factories, R&D, licensing and products?

Next Step for Counterfeiters: Faking the Whole Company

Why should mothers care that vast fake enterprises manufactured fake baby formula, which blew up infants' heads until they died?

What, me worry?
post #72 of 90
@ameldrum1 - thanks!

@addabox - Trolling are we?
---


@yangshen - Never mind the guideline that says Apple stores must actually be owned and operated by Apple Inc. and not brazen impostors.
-

Different countries follow different requirements. In China we have both Apple Stores (relatively new), and Apple Resellers.

For example another continent I live on sporadically doesn't even have Apple stores. Not 1. South Africa. There are tons of Apple Stores though (all resellers).

Nor does Hong Kong either - and they sell a huge amount of Apple product.

Hong Kong Apple stores all look like Apple Stores too. There is a certain amount of similarity to all of them, as they do have some basic guidelines.

This Kunming store is listed on the Apple website.
If it was fake, then why is it listed as a reseller?

There are some photos on there of other resellers too. If you took a look at the photos you'd see that they all look exceedingly like "official stores".

Thats quite normal here.

The guidelines for each country are different. Just because you all assume your countries setup is the law globally, doesn't mean it is.

In China Apple stores will typically look Apple Store like, as thats a good model for them to follow. They all wear Apple T-Shirts too. Given that this is pretty standard its probably a reseller guideline.

I can go out and take some photos of some non-Apple run Apple Stores here and show you if you disbelieve. OR you can look on the Apple China website at the pretty photos they have of some of their reseller stores.

Again, this article is basically FUD, as are most of the uninformed commenters.
Sadly you don't want to take the time to fact check either.

I too can make claims as to how I think it works, but unless you back them up with actual facts as I have done, its all supposition.

The reseller page for Apple China is here

http://www.apple.com.cn/reseller/index.php

Kunming is 昆明 in Chinese. You can search for that in the Store search on that page.
Or you can take a look at the reseller store photos.


A list of Apple Resellers for each region is here - http://www.apple.com.cn/reseller/appleshop/list.php

If you can't read Chinese, you can use Google Translate.
The pictures are pretty self explanatory though.

Lawrence.

For those interested in what an official China Apple Store looks like, I have photos from the pre-opening in July last year.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sheedl/...7624323998275/
post #73 of 90
Gary Allen, Editor of ifoAppleStore.com:

"Apple does have authorized resellers in China, with strictly controls on their appearance and branding. But the photographed store is not listed among Apple's resellers in the country. ...

"To be clear, none of the three stores pictured in the original blog posting are listed as being authorized Apple resellers on Apples Web site. The use of "Apple Store" is completely non-standard among authorized resellers, as is the T-shirts and lanyards, and the many interior design features."
post #74 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanghailoz View Post

@ameldrum1 - thanks!

@addabox - Trolling are we?
---


@yangshen - Never mind the guideline that says Apple stores must actually be owned and operated by Apple Inc. and not brazen impostors.
-

Different countries follow different requirements. In China we have both Apple Stores (relatively new), and Apple Resellers.

For example another continent I live on sporadically doesn't even have Apple stores. Not 1. South Africa. There are tons of Apple Stores though (all resellers).

Nor does Hong Kong either - and they sell a huge amount of Apple product.

Hong Kong Apple stores all look like Apple Stores too. There is a certain amount of similarity to all of them, as they do have some basic guidelines.

This Kunming store is listed on the Apple website.
If it was fake, then why is it listed as a reseller?

There are some photos on there of other resellers too. If you took a look at the photos you'd see that they all look exceedingly like "official stores".

Thats quite normal here.

The guidelines for each country are different. Just because you all assume your countries setup is the law globally, doesn't mean it is.

In China Apple stores will typically look Apple Store like, as thats a good model for them to follow. They all wear Apple T-Shirts too. Given that this is pretty standard its probably a reseller guideline.

I can go out and take some photos of some non-Apple run Apple Stores here and show you if you disbelieve. OR you can look on the Apple China website at the pretty photos they have of some of their reseller stores.

Again, this article is basically FUD, as are most of the uninformed commenters.
Sadly you don't want to take the time to fact check either.

I too can make claims as to how I think it works, but unless you back them up with actual facts as I have done, its all supposition.

The reseller page for Apple China is here

http://www.apple.com.cn/reseller/index.php

Kunming is 昆明 in Chinese. You can search for that in the Store search on that page.
Or you can take a look at the reseller store photos.


A list of Apple Resellers for each region is here - http://www.apple.com.cn/reseller/appleshop/list.php

If you can't read Chinese, you can use Google Translate.
The pictures are pretty self explanatory though.

Lawrence.

For those interested in what an official China Apple Store looks like, I have photos from the pre-opening in July last year.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sheedl/...7624323998275/

So you're continuing to miss the point at length. We're not talking about the legitimacy of resellers. We're not talking about stores that have a vaguely Apple-ish vibe. We're talking about (in the case of this particular thread) a store that appears to ape an Apple store down to the smallest detail. A store that is clearly attempting to leave customers with the impression that they are shopping in an actual Apple Store, run by Apple.

As I've pointed out, there is zero chance that Apple Inc. is authorizing their resellers to clone their stores, for the same reason they don't authorize third party manufactures to clone their hardware: it would mean allowing someone else to dictate the quality of the Apple experience, outside of Apple's control. Never going to happen.

A bunch of hand waving about how every region has its own standards and way of doing things doesn't address that. Pictures from a web site of stores that are in some ways similar to but in no way duplicates of an Apple Store doesn't change that. Being determined to confuse "some standards of design" with "deliberately misleading copies" doesn't' change that.

I have no idea what "facts" you think you are bringing to bear, or why you think the article is "FUD." To what end? To denigrate the very idea of Apple resellers in China? Why?

What you're arguing is the direct equivalent to claiming that Chinese manufacturers have a perfectly legitimate right to make iPad clones and sell them under the iPad name as long as they meet Apple's levels of quality, and that this is simply how things are done in a region like China as a customary matter of business. More bizarrely, you seem to be under the impression that this is also how Apple does business. You're wrong.
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post #75 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yang Shen View Post

Gary Allen, Editor of ifoAppleStore.com:

"Apple does have authorized resellers in China, with strictly controls on their appearance and branding. But the photographed store is not listed among Apple's resellers in the country. ...

"To be clear, none of the three stores pictured in the original blog posting are listed as being authorized Apple resellers on Apples Web site. The use of "Apple Store" is completely non-standard among authorized resellers, as is the T-shirts and lanyards, and the many interior design features."

And there you have it. End of story.
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post #76 of 90
And another story making the distinction between Apple authorized "Apple Shops" and the design guidelines for those and the unauthorized clone under discussion.

Interestingly, an employee of the clone store contacted for the article seemed to have a similar attitude as shanhailoz:

Quote:
BirdAbroad said in a post Wednesday that store staff she spoke to appeared to believe they were employees of Apple. The staffer reached by phone was under no such illusion. It doesnt make much of a difference for us whether were authorized or not, he said. I just care that what I sell every day are authentic Apple products, and that our customers dont come back to me to complain about the quality of the products.

That basic level of cavalierness regarding intellectual property seems to be endemic to the Chinese market. Cloners and copycats seem to be genuinely puzzled why anyone would object, as long as they're making their best effort to maintain quality.
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post #77 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

That basic level of cavalierness regarding intellectual property seems to be endemic to the Chinese market. Cloners and copycats seem to be genuinely puzzled why anyone would object, as long as they're making their best effort to maintain quality.

I would call this the take-away point. Copyrights, patents and trademarks have historically counted for little in China. A person who has been raised in the culture would probably not question this attitude, and if you lived there for any period of time, you'd probably grow accustomed to it, as it is all around you every day.

That said, I think many of us who read this story found it to be more amusing than appalling. If imitation is indeed the sincerest form of flattery, then Apple has been praised beyond reason or imagining.
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post #78 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I would call this the take-away point. Copyrights, patents and trademarks have historically counted for little in China. A person who has been raised in the culture would probably not question this attitude, and if you lived there for any period of time, you'd probably grow accustomed to it, as it is all around you every day.

That said, I think many of us who read this story found it to be more amusing than appalling. If imitation is indeed the sincerest form of flattery, then Apple has been praised beyond reason or imagining.

You're right about being more amusing than not-- I got a little side tracked by the poster claiming normative standards for this kind of thing, which together with the "I speak for the continent" officiousness irked me a bit.
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post #79 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

You're right about being more amusing than not-- I got a little side tracked by the poster claiming normative standards for this kind of thing, which together with the "I speak for the continent" officiousness irked me a bit.

Sure, I get that. But in a manner of speaking, it is the normative standard -- in China. This attitude frustrates not just Apple, but intellectual property holders world-wide. Western corporations must do business in China, but the basic infrastructure for protecting their property essentially doesn't exist, and the government apparently lacks either the will or the means to create it.

The bright side, for Apple at least: this kind of aggressive imitation of Apple's entire marketing approach lends credence to the notion that upwardly mobile Chinese aspire to owning Apple products. Even if Apple can never exert the kind of control in China that they have in other markets, the macro story is still very positive for the company. To misquote Oscar Wilde, the only thing worse than being imitated is not being imitated.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #80 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Sure, I get that. But in a manner of speaking, it is the normative standard -- in China. This attitude frustrates not just Apple, but intellectual property holders world-wide. Western corporations must do business in China, but the basic infrastructure for protecting their property essentially doesn't exist, and the government apparently lacks either the will or the means to create it.

The bright side, for Apple at least: this kind of aggressive imitation of Apple's entire marketing approach lends credence to the notion that upwardly mobile Chinese aspire to owning Apple products. Even if Apple can never exert the kind of control in China that they have in other markets, the macro story is still very positive for the company. To misquote Oscar Wilde, the only thing worse than being imitated is not being imitated.

Right, I get that. However, there's a difference between behaving a certain way and attempting to make the case for that behavior outside of "that's how we roll, hereabouts." The poster was commingling indifference to IP with assertions of standards and customary business practices all tied up with a "I am making my case with facts!" bow. Hence, tetchy.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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