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Nokia's sales tumble as filings suggest $600M licensing deal with Apple - Page 2

post #41 of 84
7/21/11 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

No magic will be involved. Apple have used their cash reserves to pre-purchase and gain a stranglehold on the market for fairy dust and unicorn tears.

A far more interesting question is why won't it sell?

It won't sell because it is terrible. the market has already spoken. The UI is beyond unusable. The Zune software is complete garbage...it has failed now for how many years? The proprietary Silverlight platform is horrible...even Microsoft is abandoning it with Windows 8 in favor of industry standard web technologies.

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Windows Phone OS is already at the top of the "anything but Apple" class...

On what planet? Windows Phone OS is on the bottom, below Android, RIM, and even the cancelled Microsoft Windows Mobile. Can you share some sales numbers? Oh yeah, Microsoft won't release any because they are so bad.


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and Mango will just extend that lead, and Nokia make rock solid yet beautiful and compelling devices.

Ah, the dreams of a Microsoft fandrone... If you start with a turd,you can polish it however you like, but it is still a turd. How will Nokia's phones be different from the other Microsoft Windows Phone cloners?


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So that rules out the software and hardware as a potential problem, which leaves... what? Problems with advertising? The sales channel? Simply the name "Microsoft" being attached to a phone?

Microsoft Windows Phone OS is a complete failure; it does nothing iOS and Android don't already do, and do better. The hardware is terrible (love the forced crappy BING buttons. Guess Microsoft knows no one in the right mind would choose BING over Google so they force the phones to lock to BING), terrible software (Zune failed how many years ago?), and not to mention all the text scrolling off the right of the screen...LOL. UI design 101 fail much?
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post #42 of 84
7/21/11 at 12:57pm
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Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

RIM? Seriously?

RIM outsells all Microsoft Windows Phone clones by a very wide margin. Check your facts.
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post #43 of 84
7/21/11 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

RIM outsells all Microsoft Windows Phone clones by a very wide margin. Check your facts.

Nobody claims otherwise, but likewise nobody with eyes in their head would claim that RIM is outselling WP7 because it's technically more advanced. RIM at this stage is barely more relevant than Symbian.
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post #44 of 84
7/21/11 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

Speaking of zombie handset makers, now Carl Icahn wants Motorola Mobility to sell its patent portfolio.

That makes a lot of sense, you have to get the good organs out of the body before it starts to rot!
Once he's sold off the patents then logically you sell the brand-name to one of those chinese box-shifters, and that's it for old Moto.
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post #45 of 84
7/21/11 at 1:26pm
Damn how long does it take for nokia to slap an os on a phone. HTC is spitting out devices that are identical in hardware with every os imaginable, that are fully skinned every single month. Nokia is yet to release a single phone with windows os. I think its not a technology issue but the company is dragging its feet just like rim is with qnx for phones. It makes no sense.

But I guess its good for apple, samsung and HTC and motorola who are the only companies capable of making a smartphone these days.
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post #46 of 84
7/21/11 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

This is nothing. Wait until the first Nokia cloner Microsoft Windows Phones fail just like all the other failed Microsoft Windows Phones.

Still no one can explain how magically Nokia's Microsoft Phones are going to sell when people are not buying the other cloner Windows Phones now. There is no difference in the phones; they all run the same terrible Microsoft OS.

brand loyalty (dunno who is loyal to nokia anymore though )

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post #47 of 84
7/21/11 at 2:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Nobody claims otherwise, but likewise nobody with eyes in their head would claim that RIM is outselling WP7 because it's technically more advanced. RIM at this stage is barely more relevant than Symbian.

Firefly 7475 originally posted, "Windows Phone OS is already at the top of the "anything but Apple" class and Mango will just extend that lead, and Nokia make rock solid yet beautiful and compelling devices." That is the context of these replies.

And even though RIM hasn't demonstrated that they really know what to do with it, their purchase of QNX arguably puts them ahead, technically, of Microsoft's underlying OS for WP7.

All of which is moot; RIM, Microsoft, Nokia are all becoming increasingly irrelevant in the smartphone market. They'll need a pretty big Hail Mary to get back on top, any one of them.
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post #48 of 84
7/21/11 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

Firefly 7475 originally posted, "Windows Phone OS is already at the top of the "anything but Apple" class and Mango will just extend that lead, and Nokia make rock solid yet beautiful and compelling devices." That is the context of these replies.

Yes but Firefly never claimed it was top of the sales, he said top of the class - implying technical superiority. Now we could argue that Android is technically superior to WP7, or maybe WebOS - but nothing RIM is currently shipping can claim it.

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And even though RIM hasn't demonstrated that they really know what to do with it, their purchase of QNX arguably puts them ahead, technically, of Microsoft's underlying OS for WP7.

All of which is moot; RIM, Microsoft, Nokia are all becoming increasingly irrelevant in the smartphone market. They'll need a pretty big Hail Mary to get back on top, any one of them.

QNX for phones is vapourware. It's like if I said Android Jello or whatever the J version will be is the new best mobile OS. QNX is a perfectly solid embedded OS but that's not enough to claim that whatever they build on top will automatically rival WP7 or WebOS.

WP7 is currently a complete commercial failure, but that doesn't stop it being relatively interesting from both a UI design perspective and a technical perspective.
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post #49 of 84
7/21/11 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

Speaking of zombie handset makers, now Carl Icahn wants Motorola Mobility to sell its patent portfolio.

I've thought for over 2 years that Motorola was a good fit with Apple. Now that they have split it makes even more sense for Apple to court MotoMobility (... and I don't mean litigation).
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post #50 of 84
7/21/11 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I've thought for over 2 years that Motorola was a good fit with Apple. Now that they have split it makes even more sense for Apple to court MotoMobility (... and I don't mean litigation).

What does moto have to offer beyond the patents? A diffusion brand?
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post #51 of 84
7/21/11 at 3:23pm
Kudos to Apple and all their hard work, but I don't understand why anyone is surprised by Nokia being passed up by another company and I also don't understand why so many people talk about Nokia like they're so special. They're not.

I've owned a few phones in the past with the Nokia name on them and they've never been any better or worse than any other phone I've ever owned. There was nothing really special or interesting about them. Just another phone in a string of disposable phones. I never once looked at a Nokia phone and thought, "Wow, this company really makes some great stuff."

So, on one hand, good news for Apple. On the other, so freakin' what? They passed another uninspired player in the mobile phone industry.

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post #52 of 84
7/21/11 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

Kudos to Apple and all their hard work, but I don't understand why anyone is surprised by Nokia being passed up by another company and I also don't understand why so many people talk about Nokia like they're so special. They're not.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're in the US.
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post #53 of 84
7/21/11 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're in the US.

Same.
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post #54 of 84
7/21/11 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

This is what happens when you tell your customers that your products are shit. There's going to be a lot of angry Finns if Elop can't repair the damage that he's done.

Customers knew Nokia is doing crappy products (at least software wise) for some time now - their sales were dropping pretty much constantly in the last few years.

Announcing WP7 exclusivity and dropping of Symbian/MeeGo almost a year before it actually happened did reduce their earnings for this year, but being silent (and selling their current stuff) would piss off a lot of customers who would end up buying current phones just to learn that, couple of weeks later, what they purchased is extinct.

As it is, it is tough for Nokia, but fair to their customers. If you still want to buy Symbian, go for it - but don't complain later we didn't warn you.
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post #55 of 84
7/21/11 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

What does moto have to offer beyond the patents? A diffusion brand?

A name. Motorola still has brand power.

Please note, though, that I said "court"... not necessarily buy... although I'm not sure how Motorola would sell just its patents.

Those patents are probably more valuable than those that Nortel held.

(I also have no problem with Apple having at least one licensed vendor.)
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post #56 of 84
7/21/11 at 5:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

Exactly...all the brand loyalty they had got completely diluted now that they are just another MS vendor.

I disagree. I am coming from Europe and am pretty confident majority of Nokia users - everyday users, not geeks and techies - have no idea what software runs in their current phones. They did and will be buying Nokia because it is Nokia - regardless of OS; or even clueless of OS.

Techies, well, WP7 is well regarded in tech circles. They will not complain either.

Additionally... Nokia was not too strong in US, to my knowledge. I guess there is some patriotism when it comes to brand loyalty in US. With WP7, Nokia is still European brand, but much more American at the same time.
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post #57 of 84
7/21/11 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

A name. Motorola still has brand power.

Please note, though, that I said "court"... not necessarily buy... although I'm not sure how Motorola would sell just its patents.

Those patents are probably more valuable than those that Nortel held.

(I also have no problem with Apple having at least one licensed vendor.)

Moto's brand is in terminal decline though, and I don't really see the benefit to Apple of buying it or having it as a licensed vendor. If Apple wants to make iOS multi-brand they could just create their own diffusion label - let's call it Lemon for the sake of comedy.

Lemon phones would run iOS but would be, well, lemons. Cheap, cheerful, scruffy, colourful - the antithesis of Apple. Now C-E firms don't do this, but car firms do, and successfully too. The advantage of making your own lemons is that you can make sure your lemon brand doesn't get ideas above its station - which is far harder with a licensed vendor.

As to the patents - I'm not sure how valuable they are - it would depend partly on who has already been granted licenses I suppose.
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post #58 of 84
7/21/11 at 5:11pm
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Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Customers knew Nokia is doing crappy products (at least software wise) for some time now - their sales were dropping pretty much constantly in the last few years.

Believe or not but Nokia's smartphone sales had been rising, often by 30-50% YoY, until the last two quarters. What was dropping for years was Nokia's marketshare.
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post #59 of 84
7/21/11 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Moto's brand is in terminal decline

Wrong.

Quote:
though, and I don't really see the benefit to Apple of buying it or having it as a licensed vendor. If Apple wants to make iOS multi-brand they could just create their own diffusion label - let's call it Lemon for the sake of comedy.

Diffusion brands never sell as well as recognized brands.

Quote:
Lemon phones would run iOS but would be, well, lemons. Cheap, cheerful, scruffy, colourful - the antithesis of Apple. Now C-E firms don't do this, but car firms do, and successfully too. The advantage of making your own lemons is that you can make sure your lemon brand doesn't get ideas above its station - which is far harder with a licensed vendor.

Yeah, you're right... Apple knows nothing about licensing.

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As to the patents - I'm not sure how valuable they are - it would depend partly on who has already been granted licenses I suppose.

Very very valuable. Motorola has been in the phone space for a long time. Even the licenses that have been granted bring in $$$. (ie: RFID)
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post #60 of 84
7/21/11 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

Did you mean to say at the top of the "anything but Apple" class that also isn't Android or RIM?

Because I think you left those two out.

You could argue for Android. You would be wrong, but you could at least you could argue for it... But RIM?
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post #61 of 84
7/21/11 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Wrong.

Yeh they're doing great, they're losing market share in the US faster than any other handset maker, and it's their strongest market. They haven't turned a steady profit in years. There's a reason that Icahn is trying to sell off the patent portfolio.

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Diffusion brands never sell as well as recognized brands.

In the car industry some of them sell plenty Mini Cooper, VW Bug, Skoda. In the clothing industry they can be the bulk of income - Armani doesn't make most of his money from the Georgio or Collezione labels.

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Yeah, you're right... Apple knows nothing about licensing.

Apple pulled out of licensing its OS for this very reason. They wanted the licensees to go out and compete in the low end, but instead they came right back and competed directly with Apple.

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Very very valuable. Motorola has been in the phone space for a long time. Even the licenses that have been granted bring in $$$. (ie: RFID)

Ok- well you have a problem here. Moto is worth 7Billion, it has no debt, liabilities roughly match assets with around 3 billion in cash left over. If the patents are worth more than 6 billion then Moto's phone business has considerable negative value - ie. the Moto brand value is negative.

Which is it? Is the motorola brand worthless or are the patents worth under 4 billion?
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post #62 of 84
7/21/11 at 5:56pm
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Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

*blah*

You didn't address my question.
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post #63 of 84
7/21/11 at 5:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

You could argue for Android. You would be wrong, but you could at least you could argue for it... But RIM?

That's what I said
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post #64 of 84
7/21/11 at 6:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

You didn't address my question.

I did though! <raises hand and looks eager> Pick me! Pick me! Me! Me!
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post #65 of 84
7/21/11 at 6:06pm
Wait a minute. Apple paid Nokia somewhere in the US$450-600 range, but Nokia still posted a 400+ EUR loss? Wow. Just wow.
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post #66 of 84
7/21/11 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

Wait a minute. Apple paid Nokia somewhere in the US$450-600 range, but Nokia still posted a 400+ EUR loss? Wow. Just wow.

It kinda got wiped out by the one time hit they took dumping all their old software guys onto Accenture.
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post #67 of 84
7/21/11 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

You could argue for Android. You would be wrong, but you could at least you could argue for it... But RIM?

Do we have to go through all that again? Go read the entire thread.

If you're going to post ambiguous assertions then don't complain if the discussion gets off track like this.
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post #68 of 84
7/21/11 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Yeh they're doing great, they're losing market share in the US faster than any other handset maker, and it's their strongest market. They haven't turned a steady profit in years. There's a reason that Icahn is trying to sell off the patent portfolio.

Oh... so now you're changing the argument... we're talking about brands. Motorola is recognized throughout the world. iOS on Moto would only strengthen the Moto brand... which is what makes you wrong by saying the Moto brand is in "terminal" decline.

Quote:
In the car industry some of them sell plenty Mini Cooper, VW Bug, Skoda. In the clothing industry they can be the bulk of income - Armani doesn't make most of his money from the Georgio or Collezione labels.

Are you saying the Mini Cooper and the Bug are diffusion brands??!! Hmmmm... I guess the Explorer is a diffusion brand... and the iPod Touch is a diffusion brand... I think you better go back and look up diffusion brands.

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Apple pulled out of licensing its OS for this very reason. They wanted the licensees to go out and compete in the low end, but instead they came right back and competed directly with Apple.

Really, this is why you think Steve killed the licensing??!! I can't do your homework for you... sorry.

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Ok- well you have a problem here. Moto is worth 7Billion, it has no debt, liabilities roughly match assets with around 3 billion in cash left over. If the patents are worth more than 6 billion then Moto's phone business has considerable negative value - ie. the Moto brand value is negative.

Which is it? Is the motorola brand worthless or are the patents worth under 4 billion?

What??!! You're equating the brand with the value of the company. Brand isn't just the value of a company, it's the recognition factor. ... shit I can't even answer that because your logic is so fucked...

Okay... I'm outta here... I can see you really don't understand the concept of brands and diffusion brands.

[You are now on ignore]
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post #69 of 84
7/21/11 at 6:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

You didn't address my question.

Sure i did, you just do not like the answer. The real question is why did you not answer my original question? Why would anyone in their right mind buy yet another cloner Microsoft Windows Phone from Nokia? There are plenty of other cloners out there and those are not selling at all. Care to answer? Wait let me guess...marketing? The 500 million they spent was not enough?
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post #70 of 84
7/21/11 at 7:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Oh... so now you're changing the argument... we're talking about brands. Motorola is recognized throughout the world. iOS on Moto would only strengthen the Moto brand... which is what makes you wrong by saying the Moto brand is in "terminal" decline.

Yes, it's recognised, but people don't pay extra for it - they have no brand power. Recognition is worthless - an Edsel is well recognised. An iOS Moto phone would be great eh? Just like the huge success that was the ROKR.

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Are you saying the Mini Cooper and the Bug are diffusion brands??!! Hmmmm... I guess the Explorer is a diffusion brand... and the iPod Touch is a diffusion brand... I think you better go back and look up diffusion brands.

Yes BMW bought Rover precisely to go downmarket, the Mini was the only part of the Rover brand worth saving, and it became effectively a BMW diffusion brand. Sorry to have these inconvenient facts and all. VW's top end stuff is Audi.

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Really, this is why you think Steve killed the licensing??!! I can't do your homework for you... sorry.

Yes, because he alluded it on the 1997 WWDC question and answer. http://onstartups.com/tabid/3339/bid...irca-1997.aspx

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What??!! You're equating the brand with the value of the company. Brand isn't just the value of a company, it's the recognition factor. ... shit I can't even answer that because your logic is so fucked...

Brand value of a firm is what is left over when you take away everything else. If there was appreciable brand value in Moto it would be reflected in the share price. ie. Moto's breakup value would be the sum of cash, patents, brand value and business. Now their business is not making money, but it isn't losing much either, so it's unlikely to have a very high negative value.
Do as they say, the maths.

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Okay... I'm outta here... I can see you really don't understand the concept of brands and diffusion brands.

[You are ow on ignore]

I find it amusing when people write a big response and then say 'and I'm ignoring you'. It's kinda cute. You stay classy mister.
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post #71 of 84
7/21/11 at 7:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

Sure i did, you just do not like the answer. The real question is why did you not answer my original question? Why would anyone in their right mind buy yet another cloner Microsoft Windows Phone from Nokia? There are plenty of other cloners out there and those are not selling at all. Care to answer? Wait let me guess...marketing? The 500 million they spent was not enough?

Calling them 'cloner' phones just sounds silly you know.

What you american folk don't grok is out there in the big wide world where GSM reigns supreme and uncontested, Nokia has historically been amazingly strong. 60% plus market share practically everywhere but the US. It has a reputation for solidly engineered handsets with great battery life, great reception and really really lousy user interfaces. People didn't love Nokia, but it was the default choice for a new handset, because the build quality was about the best you could get pre iPhone.

It has tremendous name recognition, and was still mostly holding its share until the last year - when it so magnificently Osbourned itself. Perhaps more importantly than consumer brand, Nokia still has considerable channel presence, they can get phones onto networks and into shops.

Nokia is betting the farm on WP7, they're committed to it beyond the level that HTC or Samsung are. Frankly they're more committed to it than MS is. If they can just get some models out they have a far greater chance of shifting WP7 phones simply because they'll be at every price point, in every market, on every carrier.

Even saying all that I still don't think it will be enough, I think Nokia's brand took a torpedo below the waterline, but there is an outside chance of it.
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post #72 of 84
7/21/11 at 10:19pm
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Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

And even though RIM hasn't demonstrated that they really know what to do with it, their purchase of QNX arguably puts them ahead, technically, of Microsoft's underlying OS for WP7

I'd agree with that.

WinCE is a pretty terrible. It's not modular, and it's not scalable. I think that's one of the main reasons you'll never see WPx on a tablet.

What I was was talking about is the user experience offered by the OS rather than the quality and design of the underlying OS code.
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post #73 of 84
7/21/11 at 10:37pm
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Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

I did though! <raises hand and looks eager> Pick me! Pick me! Me! Me!



Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Good question! I'd go with
  • Terrible branding...
  • Terrible marketing....
  • Lack of existing users....
  • Indifferent sales channel....
  • Lack of a tablet offering...
  • Lack of an ecosystem - Apple and Google can trumpet their hundreds of thousands of apps. WP7, not so much.

I almost totally agree.

Probably the biggest issue for me personally is the current hole where a tablet should be. I love the way my iPhone and iPad work with each other and I could never move to a platform that didn't support the same functionality.

Windows 8 is the potential key here which brings me to the next point...

Lack of an ecosystem. Apart from the word "ecosystem" giving me a headache because of its ambiguity I actually think Microsoft are doing a decent job here at the moment.

Having WP7 piggy-back the top class development tools used by Windows developers was a brilliant move.

Getting Microsoft Game Studios to start developing games for WP7 was another (I actually think Apple should to purchase a few game devs and create an "Apple Game Studios", but that's a conversation for another day).

However, Windows 8 is again the key here and is basically the make or break point for Windows as a consumer brand.

If they do end up splitting the development platforms, so you have Silverlight/XNA on the phone, DirectX/XNA on the Xbox and HTML5 on the PC/tablet I can't see how the "apps ecosystem" can continue to grow around Windows Phone.

I just can't see it being a large enough platform to sustain itself in this initial growth stage.

However if they ensure some degree of code portability between PC, tablet, phone and Xbox I don't see the phone having a problem.

We should know all the answers come BUILD in September
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post #74 of 84
7/21/11 at 10:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

Sure i did

You didn't. You wrote a bunch of stuff whinging about the OS which is less that worthless because you haven't used it.

I don't go around complaining to people about the hardships of playing pro football. People would probably question my mental state if I did. You should have the same decency.

The user experience offered by WP7 isn't even in question.
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post #75 of 84
7/22/11 at 1:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're in the US.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess you have no worthwhile response and would rather discuss me than my post.

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Originally Posted by thenewperson View Post

Same.

Same.

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post #76 of 84
7/22/11 at 4:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess you have no worthwhile response and would rather discuss me than my post.

It's relevant because Americans have had a completely different experience of Nokia than the rest of the world. It would be like me saying

'Oh the Yankees, yeh I guess they're ok for a rounders team, but if they had real talent they'd be playing cricket'.

If you're not an american then your opinion on Nokia as a brand is different and interesting, if you are then it's just understandable parochialism.
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post #77 of 84
7/22/11 at 4:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

However if they ensure some degree of code portability between PC, tablet, phone and Xbox I don't see the phone having a problem.

Too much code portability could easily be a bad thing though - resulting in tons of sloppy PC ports to mobile and a perception that the Apps are generally of low quality. Also by the time W-8 comes out the tablet market may be too big for them to break into.

XBox is an interesting point, as are games in general. It seems that the console market is one where Apple should be playing - no doubt they've thought about it though and either have decided not to or will blow us all away in a year or two.
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post #78 of 84
7/22/11 at 5:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I'd agree with that.

WinCE is a pretty terrible. It's not modular, and it's not scalable. I think that's one of the main reasons you'll never see WPx on a tablet.

What I was was talking about is the user experience offered by the OS rather than the quality and design of the underlying OS code.

I am sure you realize, Microsoft Windows Phone is built on top of the terrible Win CE, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinCE

This is one of the many reasons Windows Phone is failing...it is built on a horrible base.
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post #79 of 84
7/22/11 at 5:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

You didn't. You wrote a bunch of stuff whinging about the OS which is less that worthless because you haven't used it.


Obvious troll is obvious. Again, does not answer my question. Let me restate it yet again...why is anyone going to buy a Microsoft Windows cloner phone from Nokia when they are not buying the cloners from HTC, Samsung, etc... now? How is Nokia's phone different from the other cloners? It its camera going to be one mega pixel larger?
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post #80 of 84
7/22/11 at 5:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Too much code portability could easily be a bad thing though - resulting in tons of sloppy PC ports to mobile and a perception that the Apps are generally of low quality.

True. There is a certain balance that needs to be met and it needs to lean more toward code being written efficiently enough to run on a phone is reused in tablet/PC applications rather than code being written inefficiently for the PC being reused in phone/tablet applications.

I think part of the high quality of apps on the iPad app store came from the shared development environment.

Personally I hope that phone code paradigms start to make their way to the PC. Programmers have become progressively more and more sloppy with code over the years as PC specifications have increased.
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