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The Budget Deal - Page 2

post #41 of 736
One day, we will all learn from the Argentinians.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #42 of 736
George Will on this issue.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #43 of 736
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

George Will on this issue.

What lame drivel!

This was particularily revealing, shows just how troubled the repubs are, and how fearmongering is still their only platform to combat reason-

"Richard Miniter, a Forbes columnist, is right: Obama is not the new FDR, but the new Gorbachev. Beneath the tattered, fading banner of reactionary liberalism, Obama struggles to sustain a doomed system. Democrats dependency agenda swelling the ranks of government employees, multiplying government-subsidized industries, enveloping ever-more individuals in the entitlement culture is buckling under an intractable contradiction: It is incompatible with economic growth sufficient to create enough wealth to feed the multiplying tax eaters."
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post #44 of 736
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #45 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

What lame drivel!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

This was particularily revealing, shows just how troubled the repubs are, and how fearmongering is still their only platform to combat reason

Yes, that's exactly what it shows.

By the way...when Barack Obama and his lap dog at Treasury are the one's proclaiming doom and Armageddon if the debt limit isn't increased, I think we can know who is using fear-mongering as their platform.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #46 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Sounds like there might be a deal.

What really pisses me off is that the repubs will have squeezed as much cuts to programs that effect the poor as they possibly can in return for Obama not extending the tax cuts for the richest 2% of Americans. And the repubs have probably whittled down anything they could that will have effected that richest 2%.

Class Warfare. You're dug into the trenches.
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post #47 of 736
Well guys you do know that there's only one group more unpopular on this subject than Obama. Guess who?

Guess how much worse it will go for that same group if we default. And it really won't matter what class you are.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #48 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Class Warfare. You're dug into the trenches.

Well so are you.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #49 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Peggy Noonan has some thoughts about it.

Quote:
Peggy Noonan (born Margaret Ellen Noonan on September 7, 1950, in Brooklyn, New York) is an American author of seven books on politics, religion, and culture and a weekly columnist for The Wall Street Journal. She was a primary speech writer and Special Assistant to President Ronald Reagan and in her political writings is considered a Republican.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggy_Noonan

What a surprise!

Jeez! Color me shocked ( not )!

Here's some thoughts from David Gregory : http://presspass.msnbc.msn.com/_news...t-negotiations
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #50 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggy_Noonan

What a surprise!

Jeez! Color me shocked ( not )!

Here's some thoughts from David Gregory : http://presspass.msnbc.msn.com/_news...t-negotiations

Gee jimmac, congrats...you figured out who Peggy Noonan is!
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post #51 of 736
Thread Starter 
A couple of interesting graphs showing the percentage of the taxes paid by corporations as a percentage of GDP and the total taxes paid as a percentage of GDP comparing different countries- http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/...inal-chart.png

I don't have the original source of the graphs.

The second graph shows taxes at 23% of GDP but according to this (I can't get it to display, maybe it's not Mac friendly) it was at 15% in 2009-

"REAGAN:

1981: ...19.6%
1982: ...19.2%
1983: ...17.5%
1984: ...17.3%
1985: ...17.7%
1986: ...17.5%
1987: ...18.4%
1988: ...18.2%

H.W. Bush:

1989: ...18.4%
1990: ...18.0%
1991: ...17.8%
1992: ...17.5%

Under Clinton:

1993: ...17.5%
1994: ...18.0%
1995: ...18.4%
1996: ...18.8%
1997: ...19.2%
1998: ...19.9%
1999: ...19.8%
2000: ...20.6%

W. Bush:

2001: ...19.5%
2002: ...17.6%
2003: ...16.2%
2004: ...16.1%
2005: ...17.3%
2006: ...18.2%
2007: ...18.5%
2008: ...17.5%

Obama:

2009: ...14.9%
2010: ...14.9%
2011: ...14.8% (CBO projection)

link to government site- http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...s/hist01z2.xls "
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social..._90610844.html
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post #52 of 736
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well so are you.

No, he's at a dinner party raising funds for lobbying government
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post #53 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

A couple of interesting graphs showing the percentage of the taxes paid by corporations as a percentage of GDP and the total taxes paid as a percentage of GDP comparing different countries- http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/...inal-chart.png

I don't have the original source of the graphs.

The second graph shows taxes at 23% of GDP but according to this (I can't get it to display, maybe it's not Mac friendly) it was at 15% in 2009-

"REAGAN:

1981: ...19.6%
1982: ...19.2%
1983: ...17.5%
1984: ...17.3%
1985: ...17.7%
1986: ...17.5%
1987: ...18.4%
1988: ...18.2%

H.W. Bush:

1989: ...18.4%
1990: ...18.0%
1991: ...17.8%
1992: ...17.5%

Under Clinton:

1993: ...17.5%
1994: ...18.0%
1995: ...18.4%
1996: ...18.8%
1997: ...19.2%
1998: ...19.9%
1999: ...19.8%
2000: ...20.6%

W. Bush:

2001: ...19.5%
2002: ...17.6%
2003: ...16.2%
2004: ...16.1%
2005: ...17.3%
2006: ...18.2%
2007: ...18.5%
2008: ...17.5%

Obama:

2009: ...14.9%
2010: ...14.9%
2011: ...14.8% (CBO projection)

link to government site- http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...s/hist01z2.xls "
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social..._90610844.html

Good! I hope it keeps going down. I'd like to see this number going down for personal income taxes also.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #54 of 736
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Good! I hope it keeps going down. I'd like to see this number going down for personal income taxes also.

Oh, I'm sure that can be arranged-

► Adjusted Gross Income Shares for 1980 and 2009 (Percent of total AGI earned by each group):

Income Group—1980 / 2009
Top 1% -- 8.46% / 20.0%
Top 5% -- 21.01% / 34.73%
Top 10% -- 32.13% / 45.77%
Bottom 50% -- 17.68% / 12.75%

► Average Tax Rate for 1980 and 2009 (Percent of AGI paid in income taxes)

Income Group--1980 / 2009
Top 1% -- 34.47% / 23.27%
Top 5% -- 26.85% / 20.70%
Top 10% -- 23.49% / 18.71%
Bottom 50% -- 6.10% / 2.59%

► Total Income Tax Shares for 1980 and 2009 (Percent of federal income tax paid by each group)

Income Group--1980 / 2009
Top 1% -- 19.05% / 38.02%
Top 5% -- 36.84% / 58.72%
Top 10% -- 49.28% / 69.94%
Bottom 50% -- 7.05% / 2.70%

Thanks to WestTexan in The Guardian's comments- http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...rt-of-comments

The rest of his/her post is illuminating too-

► In 1952, the year I was born, corporation taxes accounted for 32.1% of US federal receipts. In 2009 they accounted for 6.6%.

On the flip side, in 1952 employment taxes* [payroll taxes?] accounted for 9.2% of federal receipts, and in 2009 they accounted for 42.3%.
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post #55 of 736
Thread Starter 
The business secretary in the UK-

"Vince Cable has launched an extraordinary attack on "rightwing nutters" in America who are trying to block the raising of the US government's debt ceiling and who are, he said, a bigger threat to the world economy than problems in the eurozone."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...htwing-nutters
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post #56 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Gee jimmac, congrats...you figured out who Peggy Noonan is!

Considering the source I knew already.

( I acutally did know already )
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #57 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

No, he's at a dinner party raising funds for lobbying government

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #58 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

A couple of interesting graphs showing the percentage of the taxes paid by corporations as a percentage of GDP and the total taxes paid as a percentage of GDP comparing different countries- http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/...inal-chart.png

I don't have the original source of the graphs.

The second graph shows taxes at 23% of GDP but according to this (I can't get it to display, maybe it's not Mac friendly) it was at 15% in 2009-

"REAGAN:

1981: ...19.6%
1982: ...19.2%
1983: ...17.5%
1984: ...17.3%
1985: ...17.7%
1986: ...17.5%
1987: ...18.4%
1988: ...18.2%

H.W. Bush:

1989: ...18.4%
1990: ...18.0%
1991: ...17.8%
1992: ...17.5%

Under Clinton:

1993: ...17.5%
1994: ...18.0%
1995: ...18.4%
1996: ...18.8%
1997: ...19.2%
1998: ...19.9%
1999: ...19.8%
2000: ...20.6%

W. Bush:

2001: ...19.5%
2002: ...17.6%
2003: ...16.2%
2004: ...16.1%
2005: ...17.3%
2006: ...18.2%
2007: ...18.5%
2008: ...17.5%

Obama:

2009: ...14.9%
2010: ...14.9%
2011: ...14.8% (CBO projection)

link to government site- http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...s/hist01z2.xls "
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social..._90610844.html


There is no reason to compare corporate tax rates to GDP...at least not for someone making the arguments you are. In fact, what it really shows is that successful economies have lower rates on the scale. What you're really doing here is making the argument that we should have higher corporate rates. I'm sorry, but that's absolutely insane if you care of jobs and economic growth.

The fact is that U.S. corporate tax rates are the second highest in the world. They are also complex and laden with loopholes, breaks, punitive measures, etc. This results in some large corporations not paying into the system at all. Those that can't avoid taxes end up passing on the cost to the consumer. What do corporations do? They avoid taxes...because they can. They are not just going to sit back and pay, which is something anti-business, class warfare liberals just cannot seem to understand.

The answer to is simplify the system. Huckabee's PAC is pushing the Fair Tax via petition. Here is an excerpt:

Quote:
For those of you who are unfamiliar with the Fair Tax let me briefly explain how it works.

You get rid of income tax.

You get rid of all the withholding.

You get rid of corporate taxes completely, totally. After all those taxes are not really paid by the corporations. They're passed on to the customer with a 22 percent embedded tax in the system.

You eliminate that, which means the prices of what you purchase will go down.

You replace it with a 23 percent consumption tax. Now, that sounds expensive, but you only pay when you purchase something new, whether it's a product or a service.

Also, It's a completely transparent tax system.

It doesn't increase taxes. It's revenue neutral. It will bring business back to the United States that is leaving our shores our current, complicated, unfair tax laws make it impossible for an American-based business to compete with lower tax structures in other countries.
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post #59 of 736
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

There is no reason to compare corporate tax rates to GDP...at least not for someone making the arguments you are. In fact, what it really shows is that successful economies have lower rates on the scale. What you're really doing here is making the argument that we should have higher corporate rates. I'm sorry, but that's absolutely insane if you care of jobs and economic growth.

The fact is that U.S. corporate tax rates are the second highest in the world. They are also complex and laden with loopholes, breaks, punitive measures, etc. This results in some large corporations not paying into the system at all. Those that can't avoid taxes end up passing on the cost to the consumer. What do corporations do? They avoid taxes...because they can. They are not just going to sit back and pay, which is something anti-business, class warfare liberals just cannot seem to understand.

The answer to is simplify the system. Huckabee's PAC is pushing the Fair Tax via petition. Here is an excerpt:

I suppose WalMarts upped it's pricing so much because it's paying very close to the full corporate tax rate?-

"Before taxes, the world's largest retailer banked $22.1 billion in profit. After deductions and factoring in its international operations, the company still paid just under a third of that back in taxes to various governments.

The federal tax rate for corporations is 35%. Wal-Mart's effective income tax rate came in just under that, at 32.4%"
~ http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/...lls/index.html

The Uk has VAT (value added tax) and an income tax. VAT is at 20%. Add just 3% for your unbelievably titled "Fair Tax" and you'll have to massively cut programs... you know, like defense and education, healthcare etc whilst making the poor and middle class pay a much higher percentage of their income in taxes whilst the rich pay a much much lower percentage of theirs in taxes.

Like the info from posts above shows, the bottom 50% income earners in the US currently pay just 2.5% of their income in taxes. Do you think they save much? Nope they don't. They spend what thy have and often get into debt too. The rich on the other hand invest, save and many lavishly live, but that expenditure is a small piece of their income.

The rich would do great, the middle and lower would suffer, the debt would never be paid off and the economy would TANK.

Correction: the average income tax rate is about 2.5% for the lowest 50% income earners according to the earlier posted figures. The total tax rate for that group is somewhere around 10%. That's more than half yhe 23% figure of the "Fair Tax" and obviously the poorer ones in that group will pay even less of a percentage.
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post #60 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

"Before taxes, the world's largest retailer banked $22.1 billion in profit. After deductions and factoring in its international operations, the company still paid just under a third of that back in taxes to various governments.

The inclusion of that word in that statement really speaks volumes about the mindset.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #61 of 736
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The inclusion of that word in that statement really speaks volumes about the mindset.

Yeah, fair enough, it does seem inappropriate.

One thing I noticed about that CNN link that I find curious was the Bank of America tax info. Apparently the tax payer bailed them out to the tune of $45 billion. When they then went on to make a ton of money, they wrote off the repayment of the $'s paid back on the $45 billion. That means that it will end up affording them the opportunity to pay no taxes on $45 billion of profits. Seems odd. Does that seem odd to you or am I missing something?
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post #62 of 736
It's hilarious. The right go on and on about how when you tax something, you discourage whatever it is you're taxing. They say that if yo tax business, you discourage business, etc...

Then they go on and say the only thing we should tax is consumption.

So won't it be wonderful for all the businesses when people stop buying their products and using their services.
post #63 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

The fact is that U.S. corporate tax rates are the second highest in the world. They are also complex and laden with loopholes, breaks, punitive measures, etc. This results in some large corporations not paying into the system at all.

How you fail to see the contradiction here is mind boggling.

The first statement is completely untrue because of the second.

The US absolutely does not have the second highest (effective) corporate tax rates in the world. And it's that 'effective' rate that is the only thing that really matters.
post #64 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How you fail to see the contradiction here is mind boggling.

The first statement is completely untrue because of the second.

The US absolutely does not have the second highest (effective) corporate tax rates in the world. And it's that 'effective' rate that is the only thing that really matters.

Where does it rank then?
post #65 of 736
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Where does it rank then?


Why do you post that info, instead of always expecting someone else to?
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post #66 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Why do you post that info, instead of always expecting someone else to?

Because tonton is saying that the information is wrong. If he knows that that fact is wrong then he must have some information to prove it is wrong. Tonton prove that it's wrong.
post #67 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The US absolutely does not have the second highest (effective) corporate tax rates in the world. And it's that 'effective' rate that is the only thing that really matters.

So you are saying that a high base corporate tax rate, combined with lots of loopholes, is the logical equivalent to a lower base corporate rate?

I don't agree - for two reasons. 1) The loopholes only help certain industries, if you are not one of the blessed group, you pay the higher tax. and 2) Complex tax rules benefit large corporations and hurt small ones.

I don't think that they are equivalent - you could get rid of the loopholes, lower the tax rate to the point where you collect the same revenue, and have a much better system. Other countries, with lower rates and fewer loopholes, are better than us.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #68 of 736
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Because tonton is saying that the information is wrong. If he knows that that fact is wrong then he must have some information to prove it is wrong. Tonton prove that it's wrong.

Like you've ever supported any of your claims with facts!

Here's some info- http://mediamatters.org/research/201002020005
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post #69 of 736
Thread Starter 
This from a poster from the Media Matters link posted above. And remember none of these were factored into the "effective" tax rate-

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Nearly two-thirds of U.S. companies and 68% of foreign corporations do not pay federal income taxes, according to a congressional report released Tuesday.

The Government Accountability Office (GAO) examined samples of corporate tax returns filed between 1998 and 2005. In that time period, an annual average of 1.3 million U.S. companies and 39,000 foreign companies doing business in the United States paid no income taxes - despite having a combined $2.5 trillion in revenue.

The study showed that 28% of foreign companies and 25% of U.S. corporations with more than $250 million in assets or $50 million in sales paid no federal income taxes in 2005. Those companies totaled a combined $372 billion in sales for the largest foreign companies and $1.1 trillion in revenue for the biggest U.S. companies.
~ http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/12/news...rporate_taxes/
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post #70 of 736
Here's a little something interesting to add to the mix.

Debt talk damage has already been done

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43895856...n_the_economy/

Quote:
As Washington dithers over raising the nation's debt ceiling, investor confidence is flowing away.

There's a week left before the Aug. 2 deadline to raise the federal government's borrowing authority so it can pay its bills on time to avoid a default. Bond rating agencies and the investors who rely on them are rapidly losing conviction that debt issued by a dysfunctional government is a risk-free bet that deserves a top-notch credit rating.

and

Wealth in America: Whites-minorities gap is now a chasm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43887485...n_the_economy/


Quote:
As Congress and the White House wrestle whether to raise taxes for the wealthiest Americans, a new analysis of Census data shows that the wealth gaps between whites and blacks and Hispanics widened dramatically during the recession.
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post #71 of 736
Apparently August 2nd isn't such a "hard" deadline after all. Obama lied. Kinda like the previous "deadlines." Surprise.

Tax Inflow Means Aug. 2 Deadline on Debt May Be Flexible:

Quote:
Thanks to an inflow of tax payments and maneuvering by the Treasury Department, the government probably can continue to pay all of its bills for several days after Aug. 2, providing potentially critical breathing room for Congress to raise the debt ceiling, according to estimates by several Wall Street banks and a Washington think tank.

The consensus is that the government won’t run short of money until Aug. 10, when it would be unable to cut millions of Social Security checks without borrowing more money.

President Obama has described Aug. 2 as a “hard deadline” for Congress to increase the maximum amount that the government is allowed to borrow.

“We have to do it by next Tuesday, Aug. 2, or else we won’t be able to pay all of our bills,” Mr. Obama told the nation in his speech on Monday night.

This, of course, raises the obvious question of what we should think about that so-called Social Security "Trust Fund." Yeah...it doesn't exist in reality. That was just a propaganda title that meant we're spending the excess SS tax revenue on current spending and will simply raise taxes later to pay when SS benefits need to be paid out. Looking like SS is more of a pyramid scheme after all.


Quote:
The government will exhaust its ability to borrow more money on Aug. 2, which is equivalent to maxing out a credit card. But there will still be cash in the federal wallet.

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post #72 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Apparently August 2nd isn't such a "hard" deadline after all. Obama lied. Kinda like the previous "deadlines." Surprise.

Tax Inflow Means Aug. 2 Deadline on Debt May Be Flexible:



This, of course, raises the obvious question of what we should think about that so-called Social Security "Trust Fund." Yeah...it doesn't exist in reality. That was just a propaganda title that meant we're spending the excess SS tax revenue on current spending and will simply raise taxes later to pay when SS benefits need to be paid out. Looking like SS is more of a pyramid scheme after all.

What we need is a "lock box" to put all that money in.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #73 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

What we need is a "lock box" to put all that money in.

Lock Box! That's it. I knew they called it something else too. Thanks!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #74 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Here's a little something interesting to add to the mix.

Debt talk damage has already been done

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43895856...n_the_economy/

and

Wealth in America: Whites-minorities gap is now a chasm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43887485...n_the_economy/

It shows exactly why numbers without a context are worthless.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #75 of 736
Ok guys think what you will but if the Teapublicans keep this up the GOP is going to look pretty bad in 2012. This country was founded on compromise. You can't compromise with extreme viewpoints. And that's the Tea party in a nutshell.

Pun intended.

Oddly enough here's a Republican who can see the truth.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/1...dget-amendment

McCain rips lawmakers demanding amendment to balance the budget

Quote:
“The idea seems to be that if the House GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, a default crisis or gradual government shutdown will ensue, and the public will turn en masse against ... Barack Obama,” he said, quoting the paper. “The Republican House that failed to raise the debt ceiling would somehow escape all blame. Then Democrats would have no choice but to pass a balanced-budget amendment and reform entitlements, and the Tea Party Hobbits could return to Middle Earth having defeated Mordor.”

McCain warned that House Tea Party conservatives would give President Obama a major political victory by rejecting Boehner’s plan to increase the debt limit.

Quoting the Journal again, McCain said: “If conservatives defeat the Boehner plan they will not only undermine their House majority, they will go far [toward] reelecting Mr. Obama and making entitlements that much harder to reform.”

Of course for some who want a 3rd party they might see this as no big deal. However if we default ( and the damage has already started ) the Tea party will take the blame.

No amount of rhetoric will change that.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #76 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

...you could get rid of the loopholes, lower the tax rate to the point where you collect the same revenue, and have a much better system. Other countries, with lower rates and fewer loopholes, are better than us.

Absolutely agree.
post #77 of 736
Insisting that we live within our means is "extremist"?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #78 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Ok guys think what you will but if the Teapublicans keep this up the GOP is going to look pretty bad in 2012. This country was founded on compromise. You can't compromise with extreme viewpoints. And that's the Tea party in a nutshell.

Pun intended.

Oddly enough here's a Republican who can see the truth.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/1...dget-amendment

McCain rips lawmakers demanding amendment to balance the budget

Of course for some who want a 3rd party they might see this as no big deal. However if we default ( and the damage has already started ) the Tea party will take the blame.

No amount of rhetoric will change that.

right now I don't believe there is anything that can be done to prevent the fiscal disaster heading this way without taking a hit now. We will have to agree to disagree on much of what you wrote. Compromise is good in some circumstances, until you have to compromise your principles or sell out the people who elected you. They were put in to make the hard decisions, not to compromise when things got shaky. This is what the electorate asked for. Or else why would they elect them?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #79 of 736
The Democrats are compromising like crazy left and right, pissing off their own base with regard to the budget deal proposals. The Republicans won't give a fucking inch. They can piss off, frankly. Fuck, I bet many of them want to simply default--a bad economy hurts Obama's chances at reelection. Mitch McConnell actually admitted that his number one goal as Senate Minority Leader is to make sure Obama doesn't get reelected--not to help turn the economy around, balance the budget, fix the country...nope, just prevent the Democrat from getting a second term. What an asshole.

Quote:
"The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president," he said in the interview.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #80 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

What lame drivel!

This was particularily revealing, shows just how troubled the repubs are, and how fearmongering is still their only platform to combat reason-

"Richard Miniter, a Forbes columnist, is right: Obama is not the new FDR, but the new Gorbachev. Beneath the tattered, fading banner of reactionary liberalism, Obama struggles to sustain a doomed system. Democrats dependency agenda swelling the ranks of government employees, multiplying government-subsidized industries, enveloping ever-more individuals in the entitlement culture is buckling under an intractable contradiction: It is incompatible with economic growth sufficient to create enough wealth to feed the multiplying tax eaters."

Who in your valuable opinion would you want for the president of the U.S.eventually?
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