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The Budget Deal - Page 11

post #401 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Wasn't not too long ago the conservatives were talking about " Death Panels"?

Yes.

Ever since former Enron advisor and Obamapologist Paul Krugman brought it up (several times, in fact):

Quote:
"Some years down the pike, we're going to get the real solution, which is going to be a combination of death panels and sales taxes. Its going to be the; we're actually going to take Medicare under control and we're going to have to get some additional revenue from a VAT."

http://www.atr.org/um-paul-krugman-d...els-save-a4732

Death panels are real, though it will hide under some innocuous name such as the Independent Payment Advisory Board - fifteen unelected bureaucrats whose task it is to decide rationing for end-of-life care.

This isn't a scare tactic. It's the law.
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post #402 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Yes.

Ever since former Enron advisor and Obamapologist Paul Krugman brought it up (several times, in fact):



http://www.atr.org/um-paul-krugman-d...els-save-a4732

Death panels are real, though it will hide under some innocuous name such as the Independent Payment Advisory Board - fifteen unelected bureaucrats whose task it is to decide rationing for end-of-life care.

This isn't a scare tactic. It's the law.

So there are enough resources under the current system to provide end-of-life care to everybody who wants it or needs it?
post #403 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So there are enough resources under the current system to provide end-of-life care to everybody who wants it or needs it?

I'd say the answer is no. We're running $1.5T deficits annually. This tells us we don't have enough resources to pay for everything that's been promised right now...and we're borrowing from future generations. Eventually that well will run dry also.

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post #404 of 736
The whole "death panel" meme is crap though, because people don't think through the "or else" part.

We have socialized medicine, or else:

1. Medicare costs skyrocket faster than single payer would, causing payroll taxes to skyrocket, causing young people to get mad, and as soon as enough baby boomers die medicare gets shut down by angry young voters. That is worse than "death panels", it is actual death.

2. Private medical insurance, the cost of which is growing faster than socialized medicine or medicare, resulting is fees that only millionaires can afford in the not too distant future. Again, people will die because of this - it is worse than socialized medicine.

The people who are against "death panels" think that they can keep the insurance that they have now the rest of their lives, and compared to that socialized medicine sounds bad. The problem is that they can't keep their current medical insurance the rest of their lives - they will have no insurance in old age unless they are very wealthy.
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post #405 of 736
S&P downgrades U.S. credit rating for first time


Quote:
Standard & Poor’s announced Friday night that it has downgraded the sterling U.S. credit rating for the first time.

The move came even though the Treasury Department said that it had found a math error in the firm’s calculations of deficit projections, according to a person familiar with the matter.

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(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #406 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I guess it would be a fringe group loosely made up of the more extreme wing of the Republican and Libertarian party.

Ok, so that is your guess. Good.

Quote:
Here's what Wiki has to say about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement



And



But I'm guessing since you could look this up for yourself you already know this. After the Debt deal trying to claim they don't have any real influence or power would be foolish.

Yup, I have read Wiki and I know what news sources keep trying to say. I also am not disavowing any real influence for the tea party candidates. There are enough of them in there that they need to be listened to or they will be able to put a definite slow down to any process. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Quote:
However the way that they have been going I can't see them being a long term influence. As I've said the voters want Washington to work for them. That would mean compromise between the rightwing and the leftwing. Both are real demographics. Something the Tea party has shown they're not really good at.

So what are you really getting at?

Depends on your interpretation of the Tea Party and who they actually represent. I think we may see more of them elected in the next cycle. Depends on on where we are at that time and if those who are claimed by you to be running the Tea Party actually do get a hold of the reigns or not.

Just trying to determine what YOU believe. Not what your news sources say, or what you think I think. Thank you for answering. That was a fairly pleasant exchange. Carry on.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #407 of 736
Quote:

My favorite lines in this article:

Quote:
S&P decided to lower the AAA rating, held by the United States for 70 years, to AA+ after a bipartisan debt deal signed into law this week failed to assuage concerns about the nations growing spending.
...
Standard & Poors has warned Washington several times this year that, unless the federal government took steps to tame its debt, its credit rating could be lowered.
...
S&Ps action is the most tangible vote of disapproval so far by Wall Street on the deal between President Obama and Congress to cut the deficit by at least $2.1 trillion over 10 years. S&P has said that it wanted at least $4 trillion of deficit reduction.
...
Other credit rating agencies Moodys Investors Service and Fitch Ratings have decided not to downgrade the United States credit rating. But theyve warned that, if the economy deteriorates significantly or the government does not take additional steps to tame the debt, they could move to downgrade too.

Overall tone, fake debt reduction does not cut it. You have to actually reduce the debt by something approaching tangible.

Hope that Congress gets the message. I doubt it...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #408 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'd say the answer is no.

Exactly. So under the current system, not everyone who wants care or needs care gets it. How is this any different than "death panels", except that money is the deciding factor rather than degree of need?
post #409 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Ok, so that is your guess. Good.



Yup, I have read Wiki and I know what news sources keep trying to say. I also am not disavowing any real influence for the tea party candidates. There are enough of them in there that they need to be listened to or they will be able to put a definite slow down to any process. Not necessarily a bad thing.



Depends on your interpretation of the Tea Party and who they actually represent. I think we may see more of them elected in the next cycle. Depends on on where we are at that time and if those who are claimed by you to be running the Tea Party actually do get a hold of the reigns or not.

Just trying to determine what YOU believe. Not what your news sources say, or what you think I think. Thank you for answering. That was a fairly pleasant exchange. Carry on.


Quote:
There are enough of them in there that they need to be listened to or they will be able to put a definite slow down to any process. Not necessarily a bad thing.


Not necessarily a bad thing?

You have seen the downgraded credit rating for the U.S. ?

I'm sorry but I really can't see how any reasonable person would say that's not bad.

As far as I see things the Teaparty's about to become very unpopular.
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post #410 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Not necessarily a bad thing?

You have seen the downgraded cerdit rating for the U.S. ?

I'm sorry but I really can't see how any reasonable person would say that's not bad.

As far as I see things the Teaparty's about to become very unpopular.

So, under your calculus, the blame for the credit downgrade should be directed at a set of politicians that tried to achieve a larger deficit reduction but failed to?

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post #411 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Not necessarily a bad thing?

You have seen the downgraded cerdit rating for the U.S. ?

I'm sorry but I really can't see how any reasonable person would say that's not bad.

As far as I see things the Teaparty's about to become very unpopular.

Why was the debt downgraded? (hint, it is in this thread, quoted for your perusal.)
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #412 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So, under your calculus, the blame for the credit downgrade should be directed at a set of politicians that tried to achieve a larger deficit reduction but failed to?


They weren't trying shit. All they did was drag their heels and say " No " to anything that wasn't their idea. The moniker of the party of no is well earned.

Some have even speculated that they were hoping the economy would go south to fuel the next election in their favor. Truly disgusting.
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post #413 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

My favorite lines in this article:



Overall tone, fake debt reduction does not cut it. You have to actually reduce the debt by something approaching tangible.

Hope that Congress gets the message. I doubt it...

Here's my favorite line :

Quote:
The rating agencies have been under fire since the financial meltdown of 2008 because they often gave high ratings to bundles of mortgage-related securities that were risky and ultimately failed.

How ironic.
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post #414 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

They weren't trying shit. All they did was drag their heels and say " No " to anything that wasn't their idea. The moniker of the party of no is well earned.

Some have even speculated that they were hoping the economy would go south to fuel the next election in their favor. Truly disgusting.

So you're going to avoid answering the question because the obvious ridiculousness of of your premise. This is truly quite brilliant.

The credit downgrade it to be blamed on people who strongly lobbied for fiscal discipline but failed. Got it.

With people like you actually voting, there's no way we can go wrong.

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post #415 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So you're going to avoid answering the question because the obvious ridiculousness of of your premise. This is truly quite brilliant.

The credit downgrade it to be blamed on people who strongly lobbied for fiscal discipline but failed. Got it.

With people like you actually voting, there's no way we can go wrong.

Well we'll see how people vote next time won't we.
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post #416 of 736
So far, jimmac has argued that 1) The people that wanted more deficit reduction are at fault and 2) S&P is not credible and the downgrade doesn't matter.

Brilliant
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post #417 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well we'll see how people vote next time won't we.

That's your answer for everything isn't it?

We will see how people vote. But, no matter how they vote, a credit downgrade is the fault of people who didn't even try to achieve fiscal discipline, not those who tried and failed.

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post #418 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

They weren't trying shit. All they did was drag their heels and say " No " to anything that wasn't their idea. The moniker of the party of no is well earned.

Some have even speculated that they were hoping the economy would go south to fuel the next election in their favor. Truly disgusting.

So, you think the basis of their opposition to Obama and the Dems was that the ideas came from Democrats?

And how do you support your last statement? You literally just made it up.
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post #419 of 736
Perhaps the market turmoil and credit downgrade have something to do with the fact that our government's solution to excessive debt and spending is...more debt and spending.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #420 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well we'll see how people vote next time won't we.

Indeed. Obama's opponent will now be able to say that our first credit downgrade in history happened on his watch.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #421 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

So far, jimmac has argued that 1) The people that wanted more deficit reduction are at fault and 2) S&P is not credible and the downgrade doesn't matter.

Brilliant

See, that's false. The Tea Party didn't want a single tax loophole closed or tax rate increased. They wanted cuts in programs only. They wanted those who have the least to make all the sacrifices. They wanted those who have the most to sacrifice nothing. They are fucking reprehensible.

 

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post #422 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

See, that's false.

No.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The Tea Party didn't want a single tax loophole closed or tax rate increased. They wanted cuts in programs only.

You claim something is false (they wanted larger deficit reduction) because they didn't approach the deficit reduction in manner that you approve of.



Epic logic fail.

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post #423 of 736
If they cared about reducing the deficit, they would tax the rich, put people to work with huge government work programs (in addition to extensions to unemployment) in order to increase consumer demand. That's why we've had a jobless recovery. Businesses do not foresee the demand necessary to hire. If the Tea Party gave two shits about the deficit, they would want a full economic recovery. Their actions betray their true allegiances and ideological blinders.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #424 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Wasn't not too long ago the conservatives were talking about " Death Panels"?

...and look who's talking now

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So there are enough resources under the current system to provide end-of-life care to everybody who wants it or needs it?

Death panels are the inevitable consequence of any collective solution to health care financing. It also takes medical decisions away from doctors, patients and their families, and hands it to a bureaucracy with only one mandate: keep the cost down. It's the reason I'm opposed to any collectivist solution to financing health care. It devalues life, as do all collectivist societies in general.

If the US had the economic freedom of say, Hong Kong, there might be the possibility to grow our way into such enviable prosperity so as to provide free health care to everyone. Unfortunately the US's economic freedom is far behind yours tonton.

Furthermore, we're broke:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

... We're running $1.5T deficits annually. This tells us we don't have enough resources to pay for everything that's been promised right now...and we're borrowing from future generations. Eventually that well will run dry also.

When an economic plan consists of taking from the rich and giving to the poor, you quickly need more "rich" or fewer "poor". This administration is doing everything imaginable to ensure the future will include less wealth to "spread around."

History is littered with innumerable examples of failed societies that quickly realized the solution was to simply eradicate "the poor". Socialists worldwide murdered at least a hundred and fifty million of them in the 20th century alone. Problem solved.
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post #425 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

See, that's false. The Tea Party didn't want a single tax loophole closed or tax rate increased. They wanted cuts in programs only. They wanted those who have the least to make all the sacrifices. They wanted those who have the most to sacrifice nothing. They are f***ing reprehensible.

Well, I am half with you. They should have done more. Close the loopholes, keep the tax rate the same (or drop it a bit), cut the programs and end the subsidies. The problem we have is not going to be solved by one or the other only. At this point I think higher taxes are going to do more harm than good. But if they don't start cutting, there is nothing that will help. And that means subsidies, and other programs as well.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #426 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Here's my favorite line :



How ironic.

I think it is ironic as well. But probably for another reason.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #427 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Why was the debt downgraded? (hint, it is in this thread, quoted for your perusal.)

Subtlety doesn't work with some folks.

Quote:
The three main credit agencies, which also include Moody's Investor Service and Fitch, had warned during the budget fight that if Congress did not cut spending far enough, the country faced a downgrade.

Congress did not cut spending far enough. Markets have been anticipating a downgrade since Tuesday.

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/05/139038...ating-from-aaa
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post #428 of 736
A poll on who the people blame for the downgrade.



http://business.newsvine.com/_news/2...debt-downgrade

Quote:

Who's to blame for US debt downgrade?


Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:12 PM EDT.





Who do you think is most to blame for the US losing its stellar credit rating?



Soon everyone will be thanking the Tea party and the republicans.
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post #429 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

A poll on who the people blame for the downgrade.



http://business.newsvine.com/_news/2...debt-downgrade


Soon everyone will be thanking the Tea party and the republicans.

Ok, so the poll says one thing, and meanwhile congress continues to squander the credit rating we have left. They need to tak the next sessions and focus on fixing this. While they are NOT under the gun to do so. Any bets whether they will or not?

My money is on not.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #430 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Yes.

Ever since former Enron advisor and Obamapologist Paul Krugman brought it up (several times, in fact):



http://www.atr.org/um-paul-krugman-d...els-save-a4732

Death panels are real, though it will hide under some innocuous name such as the Independent Payment Advisory Board - fifteen unelected bureaucrats whose task it is to decide rationing for end-of-life care.

This isn't a scare tactic. It's the law.

Whose law?
post #431 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

A poll on who the people blame for the downgrade.



http://business.newsvine.com/_news/2...debt-downgrade





Soon everyone will be thanking the Tea party and the republicans.

Obama is to blame he should have moved his ass much faster!
post #432 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

See, that's false. The Tea Party didn't want a single tax loophole closed or tax rate increased. They wanted cuts in programs only. They wanted those who have the least to make all the sacrifices. They wanted those who have the most to sacrifice nothing. They are fucking reprehensible.

It's like you have the Democratic talking points right in front of you. Yes, BR...they did not want "loopholes" or rates increased. That's because the problem isn't that we don't tax enough. The problem is spending, and spending alone. Moreover, simply "closing loopholes" and raising rates on the rich won't address the problem. All it will do is alter behavior and cause less economic activity...leading to LESS revenue.
You want more revenue? Me too. The answer is to grow the tax base, not raising rates.

Quote:
They wanted those who have the least to make all the sacrifices. They wanted those who have the most to sacrifice nothing. They are fucking reprehensible.

I was about to call that a lie, but then I realized: It's not a lie if you actually believe it. And you do. You actually believe (as far as I can tell, anyway) that Republicans and Tea Partiers hate the poor and middle class, and are only out to please the rich. Meanwhile, the Democrats have been destroying the poor and middle class for 50 years. They've created government dependency by destroying work incentive. They've created fatherless families by replacing fathers with welfare checks. They've taxed the shit out of the middle class, reducing their ability to invest money into the economy.
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post #433 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

A poll on who the people blame for the downgrade.



http://business.newsvine.com/_news/2...debt-downgrade





Soon everyone will be thanking the Tea party and the republicans.


I can't help if people are stupid.
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post #434 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

A poll on who the people blame for the downgrade.



http://business.newsvine.com/_news/2...debt-downgrade





Soon everyone will be thanking the Tea party and the republicans.

That is a self-selecting poll of MSNBC readers. It is not at all scientific nor representative of anything.

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post #435 of 736
Thread Starter 
So Obama's plan would have prevented S&P's downgrade saving the US billions, but it was rejected by the Teahadist's in congress.

Aren't the Tea Party doing wonders for America?

The push for a new global currency will now take place at a much faster pace, thanks again to the Tea Party.

"Cut deficits by $4 trillion over 12 years: That's two years longer than what his debt commission's recommendations would achieve.

But like the commission, the White House estimates that spending would account for the bulk of deficit reduction. Obama says he wants $3 in spending cuts for every $1 in additional tax revenue."
~ http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/13/news...plan/index.htm

"The dramatic reversal of fortune for the world's largest economy means that US treasuries, once seen as the safest investment in the world, are now rated lower than bonds issued by countries such as the UK, Germany or France. The move is likely to raise borrowing costs for the US government, companies and consumers.

China, the world's largest holder of US debt, condemned the "short-sighted" political wrangling in the US and said the world needed a new and stable global reserve currency.

In a comment article the official Xinhua news agency said China had "every right now to demand the United States address its structural debt problems and ensure the safety of China's dollar assets. International supervision over the issue of US dollars should be introduced and a new, stable and secured global reserve currency may also be an option to avert a catastrophe caused by any single country."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...owngrade-china
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post #436 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So Obama's plan would have prevented S&P's downgrade saving the US billions,

It would have?

Quote:
but it was rejected by the Teahadist's in congress.

I thought we weren't supposed to use violent rhetoric anymore?

Quote:


Aren't the Tea Party doing wonders for America?

It has changed the debate for the better. We're now actually talking about cuts.

Quote:

The push for a new global currency will now take place at a much faster pace, thanks again to the Tea Party.

"Cut deficits by $4 trillion over 12 years: That's two years longer than what his debt commission's recommendations would achieve.

But like the commission, the White House estimates that spending would account for the bulk of deficit reduction. Obama says he wants $3 in spending cuts for every $1 in additional tax revenue."
~ http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/13/news...plan/index.htm

"The dramatic reversal of fortune for the world's largest economy means that US treasuries, once seen as the safest investment in the world, are now rated lower than bonds issued by countries such as the UK, Germany or France. The move is likely to raise borrowing costs for the US government, companies and consumers.

China, the world's largest holder of US debt, condemned the "short-sighted" political wrangling in the US and said the world needed a new and stable global reserve currency.


"In a comment article the official Xinhua news agency said China had "every right now to demand the United States address its structural debt problems and ensure the safety of China's dollar assets. International supervision over the issue of US dollars should be introduced and a new, stable and secured global reserve currency may also be an option to avert a catastrophe caused by any single country."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...owngrade-china


It just doesn't matter how many times it's proven. Liberals/progressives just cannot accept that taxation affects behavior.
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post #437 of 736
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It would have?



I thought we weren't supposed to use violent rhetoric anymore?



It has changed the debate for the better. We're now actually talking about cuts.




It just doesn't matter how many times it's proven. Liberals/progressives just cannot accept that taxation affects behavior.

Yes, Obama's plan would have prevented the downgrade. It included enough cuts, paired with enough revenue increases to satisfy S&P's.

All the Tea Party have done is make things worse, as we now fully see.

The US doesn't need the Tea Party to tell them that revenues don't match spending. The Repubs and Tea Party together are going to add to Americas debt. The CBO said that under the Ryan plan America won't start paying back it's debt until the 2060's. That's because of all the tax cuts, and that's with cutting back government services like Medicare and Medicaid so they are dead.

Repubs and the Tea Party will lead to much lower GDP, an impoverished middle and working class when instead we could have growth and Pell grants, healthcare etc and pay down the debt much much faster. It's beyond belief that you guys vote for this utter madness.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #438 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So Obama's plan would have prevented S&P's downgrade saving the US billions, but it was rejected by the Teahadist's in congress.

Incorrect. Obama's plan was for a "clean increase" in the statutory limit, with no spending cuts. As I wrote (but you did not care to read):

Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Quote:
The three main credit agencies, which also include Moody's Investor Service and Fitch, had warned during the budget fight that if Congress did not cut spending far enough, the country faced a downgrade.

Congress did not cut spending far enough. Markets have been anticipating a downgrade since Tuesday.

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/05/139038...ating-from-aaa

Here's a short quiz. Which of the following parties most vociferously advocated spending cuts as its primary goal?

1. Democrat
2. Republican
3. Tea

In the end, the spending cuts did not appear, future tax increases are nearly certain, and the debt ceiling was raised to an amount well in excess of what anyone would consider ridiculous. Hence the downgrade, which will exacerbate the very problem that brought us to this point. Obama got nearly everything he originally wanted, including the necessity to raise the debt limit yet again in 2013.

Absent dramatic and expeditious change - will not happen under the Obamanation - the US has now entered a phase of economic collapse from which there is no recovery.
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post #439 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes, Obama's plan would have prevented the downgrade. It included enough cuts, paired with enough revenue increases to satisfy S&P's.

Obama had no plan. The CBO specifically said they could not give an estimate due to the fact that a speech full of platitudes is not a plan and thus cannot be graded.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #440 of 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

... We're now actually talking about cuts.

Maybe one day we'll actually implement them.
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