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The Budget Deal - Page 12

post #441 of 736
8/6/11 at 6:58am
Oh my God. This is really quite insane. Do Democrats and leftists really think what you're thinking Hands? Seriously? No, really? Because, if they do, it explains a lot. The total lack of logic and reasoning here is actually a bit frightening.

The reason for the credit downgrade is extremely clear: deficit reduction was not nearly enough. It was not enough because spending cuts were blocked by one faction of the political "leadership" of this country. It is absolutely not because tax increases were blocked, because tax increases are not going to raise more revenue.

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post #442 of 736
8/6/11 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If they cared about reducing the deficit, they would tax the rich, put people to work with huge government work programs (in addition to extensions to unemployment) in order to increase consumer demand.

Yeah...they tried that once...it's what made the depression so "great."


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

That's why we've had a jobless recovery.

We've tried this Keynesian approach for the past 2-3 years. That's why we have a jobless "recovery." Obamanomics has failed.

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post #443 of 736
8/6/11 at 7:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Incorrect. Obama's plan was for a "clean increase" in the statutory limit, with no spending cuts. As I wrote (but you did not care to read):



Here's a short quiz. Which of the following parties most vociferously advocated spending cuts as its primary goal?

1. Democrat
2. Republican
3. Tea

In the end, the spending cuts did not appear, future tax increases are nearly certain, and the debt ceiling was raised to an amount well in excess of what anyone would consider ridiculous. Hence the downgrade, which will exacerbate the very problem that brought us to this point. Obama got nearly everything he originally wanted, including the necessity to raise the debt limit yet again in 2013.

Absent dramatic and expeditious change - will not happen under the Obamanation - the US has now entered a phase of economic collapse from which there is no recovery.

Lol, s&p even said that they were looking for 4 trillion over the next ten years. What does 3 +1 equal again?

The Teapublicans said No and so now we have this.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #444 of 736
8/6/11 at 7:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Lol, s&p even said that they were looking for 4 trillion over the next ten years. What does 3 +1 equal again?

The Teapublicans said No and so now we have this.

Again, you miss the point, they aren't going to get $1T is additional tax revenue. It's not going to happen. People won't simply sit still and hand over the money.

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post #445 of 736
8/6/11 at 7:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Again, you miss the point, they aren't going to get $1T is additional tax revenue. It's not going to happen. People won't simply sit still and hand over the money.

That explains the increased revenues when Clinton and GH Bush increased taxes doesn't it, and the drop in revenues when Reagan cut taxes?

No serious person thinks what you think. Seriously it's beyond belief you won't look at what has actually happened. Yes of course they won't get the full amount because of loopholes and scheming etc but that only goes so far, and everyone, knows it.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #446 of 736
8/6/11 at 7:22am
*sigh*

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post #447 of 736
8/6/11 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

*sigh*


If I were to give a reply like you just did you'd say it was drive by or not enough substance.
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post #448 of 736
8/6/11 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Seriously? No, really? Because, if they do, it explains a lot. The total lack of logic and reasoning here is actually a bit frightening.

The reason for the credit downgrade is extremely clear: deficit reduction was not nearly enough. It was not enough because spending cuts were blocked by one faction of the political "leadership" of this country. It is absolutely not because tax increases were blocked, because tax increases are not going to raise more revenue.

Quote:
Oh my God. This is really quite insane. Do Democrats and leftists really think what you're thinking Hands?

Not just them Mj. Recent polls show that the american voters ( you remember them don't you? ) blame mainly the Republicans and the Teaparty.
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post #449 of 736
8/6/11 at 8:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

So, you think the basis of their opposition to Obama and the Dems was that the ideas came from Democrats?

And how do you support your last statement? You literally just made it up.

Someone's making stuff up alright. Just say no. The new logo for the GOP.

But don't take my word for it look at the polls.
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post #450 of 736
8/6/11 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I can't help if people are stupid.

uh huh. Sorry that the reality of the situation doesn't follow your logic.
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post #451 of 736
8/6/11 at 8:27am
At this point there needs to be an emergency budget session to pull the financial house in order to bring back the credit rating they had before, with real cuts. Obama needs to call for it, or the leadership in congress, or anybody.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #452 of 736
8/6/11 at 9:47am
President Obama on job creation, January 10, 2009: Obama Again Raises Estimate of Jobs His Stimulus Plan Will Create or Save

Quote:
In the campaign, Mr. Obama vowed to create one million jobs, and after winning election he put forth a plan to create up to three million. The report now puts the figure at roughly 3.7 million, the midpoint of an estimated range of 3.3 million to 4.1 million jobs by the end of next year.

The White House on job creation, August 4, 2011: We Don't Create Jobs

Quote:
"The White House doesn't create jobs," Carney said, adding "the government, together - White House, Congress - creates policies that allow for greater job creation."

Please let us know just when you intend to enact those policies Mr. Obama.

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post #453 of 736
8/6/11 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes, Obama's plan would have prevented the downgrade. It included enough cuts, paired with enough revenue increases to satisfy S&P's.

Even if it did, it was bullshit...just like this plan. We we going to spend 15 trillion more than we took in over the next 10 years. Now we're going to spend 13 more than we take in...if everything follows course. If Obama's plan was another 2 trillion, that means we'd still be at 11.

And we both know Obama's plan was horseshit. Their projections for GDP growth are exceptionally rose-tinted. It doesn't even take into consideration the negative consequences of raising taxes.

Quote:

All the Tea Party have done is make things worse, as we now fully see.

The US doesn't need the Tea Party to tell them that revenues don't match spending. The Repubs and Tea Party together are going to add to Americas debt. The CBO said that under the Ryan plan America won't start paying back it's debt until the 2060's. That's because of all the tax cuts, and that's with cutting back government services like Medicare and Medicaid so they are dead.

Repubs and the Tea Party will lead to much lower GDP, an impoverished middle and working class when instead we could have growth and Pell grants, healthcare etc and pay down the debt much much faster. It's beyond belief that you guys vote for this utter madness.


First, the CBO--while advertised as "non-partisan", can only rely on the data presented to them. Shit in, shit out. The Ryan plan actually cut things. It would have been far better.

One more thing: When in the fuck are you crazy liberals going to realize that tax cuts are not spending? It's as if you look at every dollar that is not stolen by the government as "uncollected revenue."
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post #454 of 736
8/6/11 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

uh huh. Sorry that the reality of the situation doesn't follow your logic.

You posted this:

Quote:
Some have even speculated that they were hoping the economy would go south to fuel the next election in their favor. Truly disgusting.

...which is a big, fat strawman,
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post #455 of 736
8/6/11 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Not just them Mj. Recent polls show that the american voters ( you remember them don't you? ) blame mainly the Republicans and the Teaparty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Someone's making stuff up alright. Just say no. The new logo for the GOP.

But don't take my word for it look at the polls.


I am aware of the polls. Of course, there are other polls that show Obama took a beating in this budget battle as well. Either way, polls aren't indicative of who is correct. They don't dictate what an individual's opinion is.
Speaking of that opinion, you call the GOP the party of no. Interestingly enough, the Republicans kept passing plans and the Dems and Obama kept saying "no." So who was saying "no" to whom?

One more point: Weren't you part of the group calling for strong Democratic opposition a few years ago? So now the Republicans control one house of Congress and the ones opposing. Yet somehow they are being obstructionist? jimmac, they don't believe tax increases are the answer. The people that put them there don't believe tax increases are the answer. Democrats disagree. They want higher taxes. Reasonable people will disagree about the right answer. But that doesn't seem acceptable to you. We can't have honest differences of opinion...there must be some partisan bullshit reason for opinions that are different than yours (e.g. conservative opinions). Hmmm?
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post #456 of 736
8/6/11 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You posted this:



...which is a big, fat strawman,

Saw it on MSNBC yesterday afternoon. But that's not the only place and since that might be difficult to find :

From a year ago

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/0...ck-the-economy

Quote:
Wed Jul 14, 2010 at 02:10 PM PDT.

Republicans are trying to wreck the economy

And recently

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/20...onomy-to-tank/

Quote:
Bill Maher: Republicans want the economy to tank

and

http://www.cpa-connecticut.com/blog/?p=3409

Quote:
Is the GOP trashing the economy? Cutting spending during a recession? Where is that jobs bill the Republicans were crying for before the last election? Cenk Uygur MSNBC TV June 2, 2011 Video and Transcript

How many do you want? It probably doesn't matter because next you'll try to discredit the source. Just because you don't like the source doesn't make it a strawman.
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post #457 of 736
8/6/11 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Saw it on MSNBC yesterday afternoon. But that's not the only place and since that might be difficult to find :

From a year ago

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/0...ck-the-economy



And recently

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/20...onomy-to-tank/



and

http://www.cpa-connecticut.com/blog/?p=3409



How many do you want? It probably doesn't matter because next you'll try to discredit the source. Just because you don't like the source doesn't make it a strawman.


You have to kidding me! Of course I'll discredit the sources. DailyKOS?
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post #458 of 736
8/6/11 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Saw it on MSNBC yesterday afternoon.

Yes. Sources like MSLSD the Daily Kos Bill Maher and his ilk are fond of concluding Republicans also want to kill women, children, old people, Santa Claus, fluffy baby ducklings and Bugs Bunny.

It's getting old.
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post #459 of 736
8/6/11 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

Yes. Sources like MSLSD the Daily Kos Bill Maher and his ilk are fond of concluding Republicans also want to kill women, children, old people, Santa Claus, fluffy baby ducklings and Bugs Bunny.

It's getting old.

Why don't we start by showing everyone what your Bugsbunny reference is about? From 2007 :

Quote:
On Sunday’s The Chris Matthews Show, the host used one of Mike Huckabee’s Iowa photo-ops as an excuse to launch into an elitist attack on Republicans and hunters. “Who made killing small animals the test of Republican manhood?” Matthews challenged at the top of his show. Over a clip of a vintage Looney Tunes cartoon, Matthews further upped the ante: “Who declared war on Bugs Bunny?!”

Listen I don't like the fact that Romney tied his dog to the roof of his car during a trip. People like that shouldn't even come in contact with animals.

Quote:
Later with his panel, an appalled Matthews noted how Huckabee “told a reporter that he loved to bag squirrels because he fried ’em up and ate ’em with biscuits and a Coca-Cola. What have we come to!”




Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/rich-no...#ixzz1UHGDw72E

Do you like this shit?

I'll tell you what's getting old. Rags like FOX news casting racial slurs about the president's birthday party.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44041546...ew_york_times/

And while we're at it lets look at your source ( I mean fair's fair ) :

Quote:
Profile
Rich Noyes is currently Research Director at the Media Research Center, where he is co-editor of the weekly Media Reality Check and Notable Quotables, MRC’s bi-weekly compilation of the latest outrageous, sometimes humorous, quotes in the liberal media.


Read more: http://newsbusters.org/bios/rich-noy...#ixzz1UHI8N1WL




Conservative rags are full of slanted shit so please! And like I said just because you don't like the source doesn't make it false. You have to prove that.

Let's see those death panels again or maybe you want to talk about Obama's birth certificate. Get real.
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post #460 of 736
8/6/11 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You have to kidding me! Of course I'll discredit the sources. DailyKOS?

I'll bet you will because you've got nothing.
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post #461 of 736
8/6/11 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Conservative rags are full of slanted shit so please!

As long as you cite washed-out entertainers like Bill Maher and The Daily Dose as credible sources, I'll be happy to cite Rush Limbaugh. You'll notice I haven't. I've provided WSJ and those "conservative rags" New York Times and NPR. You provided a sports commentator.

Hilarious stories such as "Republicans are trying to wreck the economy" discredit themselves. So do you by citing them.

Meanwhile, Obama's death panels remain real.
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post #462 of 736
8/6/11 at 1:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

As long as you cite washed-out entertainers like Bill Maher and The Daily Dose as credible sources, I'll be happy to cite Rush Limbaugh. You'll notice I haven't. I've provided WSJ and those "conservative rags" New York Times and NPR. You provided a sports commentator.

Hilarious stories such as "Republicans are trying to wreck the economy" discredit themselves. So do you by citing them.

Meanwhile, Obama's death panels remain real.

Quote:
Meanwhile, Obama's death panels remain real

Prove it.

Quote:
As long as you cite washed-out entertainers like Bill Maher

At least they aren't washed out fictional characters from a bad novel. Spread as much smoke and mirrors as you want. You've got nothing.
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post #463 of 736
8/6/11 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Prove it.

The IPAB is modeled after NICE:

Great Britain's National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE)

Quote:
Under the NICE model, everything is subject to a strict cost-benefit rationale, including personal behavior. It establishes a scorecard of life value, quantifying our lives into units known as QALYs. (Quality Adjusted Life Years). It factors intangibles such as "social usefulness" and "reciprocity," which reward patients for past exhibition of approved values -- for example, by bumping them higher on a transplant list over their plumper fellow citizens because they maintain a more moderate weight or belong to a favored group. It is the "death panel" on steroids in that it holds sway over access to all medical care, not just expensive life-saving procedures.

The Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB) is NICE

Quote:
In Britain, one assessment used by NICE in their cost-benefit rationale is the concept of "social usefulness." A necessarily subjective and entirely corrupt political calculation, social usefulness is nonetheless a significant factor in determining eligibility for life-saving or live-extending treatments in Britain. NICE is absolutely a rationing board. They don't deny it -- indeed, they celebrate their self-described "grown-up" treatment of the subject matter while simultaneously hiding behind the fig leaf of "citizen input" and "stakeholder consensus" when deciding who lives and who isn't worthy to draw another breath.

From the White House: The Facts About the Independent Payment Advisory Board

QED
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post #464 of 736
8/6/11 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

The IPAB is modeled after NICE:

Great Britain's National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE)



The Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB) is NICE






From the White House: The Facts About the Independent Payment Advisory Board

QED

QE Crap!

From the second link :
Quote:
To describe this board as a "death panel," as Rush Limbaugh has, is to underestimate its power and misconstrue its purpose.

You did manage to bring in Rush!


Where's the proof concerning Obamacare and the death panels? You've provided no direct proof at all.

Quote:
That’s why the President opposes any plan that would simply place the burden of deficit reduction on seniors and undermine Medicare.

Unlike some uncaring groups I know of.

Quote:
Key to these savings is a proposal to strengthen the Independent Payment Advisory Board – IPAB, which was created by the Affordable Care Act. Here’s how IPAB works:
• 15 experts including doctors and patient advocates would be nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate to serve on IPAB.
• IPAB would recommend policies to Congress to help Medicare provide better care at lower costs. This could include ideas on coordinating care, getting rid of waste in the system, incentivizing best practices, and prioritizing primary care.
• IPAB is specifically prohibited by law from recommending any policies that ration care, raise taxes, increase premiums or cost-sharing, restrict benefits or modify who is eligible for Medicare. • Congress then has the power to accept or reject these recommendations. If Congress rejects the recommendations, and Medicare spending exceeds specific targets, Congress must either enact policies that achieve equivalent savings or let the Secretary of Health and Human Services follow IPAB’s recommendations.

I saw no mention of panels that would decide who lives and who dies. And we're talking about America not GB. Modeled after isn't the same thing anyway so why even mention their policies?

Please provide direct proof of your claims!

You've still got nothing. That's the trouble with extreme rightwing conservatives these days. Lot's posturing and attitude without substance. And if they do have substance they don't fill in the blanks.
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post #465 of 736
8/6/11 at 4:11pm
For all those who are trying to pin this current situation solely on the Tea Party or Republicans. Which plan would have avoided the downgrade and actually made a difference that they refused to pass?

Which plan would have drawn down the debt, or even slowed by any appreciable amount the growth of the debt?

All the Conservatives/Libertarians, I know what you guys think. I am asking the Progressives/Liberals/Democrats.

Were there any plans that were floated by either side that actually got us on what you feel was a good path to financial stability?

This is not supposed to be a gotcha statement, What would have made a real difference that was shot down. I can start by saying, taking subsidies off the table was a bogus point. When things are like this, nothing is sacred, least of all subsidies. My (figurative) sacred cow is no more sacred than your (figurative) sacred cow. Both are ready for the (figurative) slaughter at this point.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #466 of 736
8/6/11 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

For all those who are trying to pin this current situation solely on the Tea Party or Republicans. Which plan would have avoided the downgrade and actually made a difference that they refused to pass?

Which plan would have drawn down the debt, or even slowed by any appreciable amount the growth of the debt?

All the Conservatives/Libertarians, I know what you guys think. I am asking the Progressives/Liberals/Democrats.

Were there any plans that were floated by either side that actually got us on what you feel was a good path to financial stability?

This is not supposed to be a gotcha statement, What would have made a real difference that was shot down. I can start by saying, taking subsidies off the table was a bogus point. When things are like this, nothing is sacred, least of all subsidies. My (figurative) sacred cow is no more sacred than your (figurative) sacred cow. Both are ready for the (figurative) slaughter at this point.

Quote:
For all those who are trying to pin this current situation solely on the Tea Party or Republicans. Which plan would have avoided the downgrade and actually made a difference that they refused to pass?

Any that were proposed that didn't short change our seniors or people who really need the money that were in a timely fashion. Of course when someone just says " No " to everything not theirs that can't happen.
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post #467 of 736
8/6/11 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You've still got nothing. That's the trouble with extreme rightwing conservatives these days. Lot's posturing and attitude without substance. And if they do have substance they don't fill in the blanks.

Lets stop posturing then, fill in those blanks. What would make a real difference? I have offered one small thing. What small thing can you offer that makes a difference.

Nothing easy like:
raise taxes
cut overall spending

Make some suggestions. I did not target any specific programs so I don't expect you to either. And my suggestion is from something that I chatted with BR briefly about. Continued the conversation with some of my "progressive" friends. And I agree to a point, there are apparently some double standards going on.
NoahJ
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post #468 of 736
8/6/11 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Lets stop posturing then, fill in those blanks. What would make a real difference? I have offered one small thing. What small thing can you offer that makes a difference.

Nothing easy like:
raise taxes
cut overall spending

Make some suggestions. I did not target any specific programs so I don't expect you to either. And my suggestion is from something that I chatted with BR briefly about. Continued the conversation with some of my "progressive" friends. And I agree to a point, there are apparently some double standards going on.

I think the president and the democrats did offer good plans the opposition wasn't listening. What we ended up with ( much like healthcare which was stalled out also ) was a ghost of any former plan. It was that ghost that S & P based their decision on.
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post #469 of 736
8/6/11 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Any that were proposed that didn't short change our seniors or people who really need the money that were in a timely fashion. Of course when someone just says " No " to everything not theirs that can't happen.

Example. That was a bit broad and nuanced.

What short changes our seniors?
Who qualifies as people who really need money?
Timely fashion?

And how does all of that deal with the budgetary crisis we are in? How does that avoid a downgrade of our credit rating?

It sounds good, but lets nail it down more? Are you talking specifically about Medicare and SS? If so, how will this help with the issue we have now? Lock box?
NoahJ
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post #470 of 736
8/6/11 at 4:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Lets stop posturing then, fill in those blanks. What would make a real difference? I have offered one small thing. What small thing can you offer that makes a difference.

Nothing easy like:
raise taxes
cut overall spending

Make some suggestions. I did not target any specific programs so I don't expect you to either. And my suggestion is from something that I chatted with BR briefly about. Continued the conversation with some of my "progressive" friends. And I agree to a point, there are apparently some double standards going on.

I think the president and the democrats did offer good plans the opposition wasn't listening. What we ended up with ( much like healthcare which was stalled out also ) was a ghost of any former plan. It was that ghost that S & P based their decision on.

Quote:
Nothing easy like:
raise taxes
cut overall spending

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post #471 of 736
8/6/11 at 4:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I think the president and the democrats did offer good plans the opposition wasn't listening. What we ended up with ( much like healthcare which was stalled out also ) was a ghost of any former plan. It was that ghost that S & P based their decision on.

I am not really pleased with the plans that emerged. They got better as time went by, but no hard choices were made. S&P has not said what they would have said to the other plans, and we don't know how that would have emerged either. They need to go back and do some more work. They should not stop until they have gotten the credit rating back to AAA...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #472 of 736
8/6/11 at 4:24pm
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Originally Posted by jimmac View Post


Those are the easy answers but they don't target anything specific.

Raise taxes on what? For how long? For which people?

Cut spending on what?

Do you have a smiley that answers those questions?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #473 of 736
8/6/11 at 5:18pm
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Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Unlike some uncaring groups I know of.

Of course. "Caring" is all that matters.

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Please provide direct proof of your claims!

I did. You chose to ignore it.

The IPAB will never be called a "death panel". Nor is Great Britain's NICE. Nevertheless, they are government agencies that will effectively decide whose life is worth it and whose is not. Even Obamacare is properly called the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act despite the fact it does nothing to protect patients, while medical costs will continue to increase, and patient options for private insurance disappear.

Quote:
Please provide direct proof of your claims!

Read. Perhaps you'll "care" when you experience it yourself.

Call it what you want. I prefer descriptive names for legislation that accurately communicates its intent: "Death panel" fits.
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post #474 of 736
8/6/11 at 5:21pm
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Originally Posted by john galt View Post

As long as you cite washed-out entertainers like Bill Maher and The Daily Dose as credible sources, I'll be happy to cite Rush Limbaugh. You'll notice I haven't. I've provided WSJ and those "conservative rags" New York Times and NPR. You provided a sports commentator.

Hilarious stories such as "Republicans are trying to wreck the economy" discredit themselves. So do you by citing them.

Meanwhile, Obama's death panels remain real.

Indeed. I think we should just start citing Limbaugh, Mark Levin, et al. Hell, I when I link a story from Fox News I usually include a disclaimer. Perhaps that should stop. Might as well play on the same field.

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Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I'll bet you will because you've got nothing.

Your "sources" are bullshit. That's what I've got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I think the president and the democrats did offer good plans the opposition wasn't listening. What we ended up with ( much like healthcare which was stalled out also ) was a ghost of any former plan. It was that ghost that S & P based their decision on.

You think? You think? jimmac, where was their plan? The President's first budget was voted down 97-0 in the Senate. After that, he had NO PLAN in writing. The Republicans had at least THREE that they not only put in writing, but actually passed in the house.

1) Ryan Budget Plan
2) Cut, Cap and Balance
3) Boehner Plan, then the modified plan.

So here we have the White House, who not only failed to offer a specific plan, but continued to "just say no" to the plans the Republicans passed. Moreover, Obama negotiated in bad faith. According to Speaker Boehner, agreement was reached on certain items in the closed door talks. But those talks fell apart because Obama went back on those same agreements the next day. This comes from Boehner HIMSELF, so good luck refuting it.
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post #475 of 736
8/6/11 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I think the president and the democrats did offer good plans the opposition wasn't listening.

As you wrote,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Please provide direct proof of your claims!

We'll wait
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post #476 of 736
8/6/11 at 5:38pm
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Originally Posted by john galt View Post

As you wrote,

We'll wait

The best part is that other than the Reid plan, we know to a virtual certainty that such plans did not exist. Watching him squirm on this one should be amusing.
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post #477 of 736
8/6/11 at 6:49pm
I get the feeling that when people voted for a historical president, they didn't have in mind the first ever credit downgrade in US history, historically high deficits and historically high debt.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #478 of 736
8/6/11 at 7:20pm
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Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Indeed. I think we should just start citing Limbaugh, Mark Levin, et al. Hell, I when I link a story from Fox News I usually include a disclaimer. Perhaps that should stop. Might as well play on the same field.

Seems reasonable actually that you should not have to apologize for a source that the other side disagrees with if they are not going to do the same for the ones you disagree with.

Quote:
You think? You think?

To be fair, I asked him for his opinion. The follow up request for facts would come if it got to the point of saying that they had the plan that would have prevented all this.

Quote:
jimmac, where was their plan? The President's first budget was voted down 97-0 in the Senate. After that, he had NO PLAN in writing. The Republicans had at least THREE that they not only put in writing, but actually passed in the house.

1) Ryan Budget Plan
2) Cut, Cap and Balance
3) Boehner Plan, then the modified plan.

So here we have the White House, who not only failed to offer a specific plan, but continued to "just say no" to the plans the Republicans passed. Moreover, Obama negotiated in bad faith. According to Speaker Boehner, agreement was reached on certain items in the closed door talks. But those talks fell apart because Obama went back on those same agreements the next day. This comes from Boehner HIMSELF, so good luck refuting it.

That particular fact has no good rebuttal as far as I know. If it went down 97-0 how is that the fault of the Republicans or the Tea Party? Anyone on the boards have an answer for that?

As far as the bad faith part concerning Boehner. It is a he said/he said type situation. I am fairly sure he was not lying, but without a corroborating source... \

On a related note, he did say after he had to do the rebuttal to the Presidents speech a few months back that he did not sign up to go toe to toe with the President as he was walking away. He does not actually relish the position he has been put in. But he has done the work that has been put in front of him, even if it was not the smartest thing he could have done for his political career.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #479 of 736
8/6/11 at 8:17pm
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Originally Posted by john galt View Post

It also takes medical decisions away from doctors, patients and their families...

You didn't get my point. Under the current system, medical decisions aren't in the hands of doctors, patients and their families. They are in the hands of bankers.
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post #480 of 736
8/6/11 at 8:32pm
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Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I get the feeling that when people voted for a historical president, they didn't have in mind the first ever credit downgrade in US history, historically high deficits and historically high debt.


Right, because all the above is only because of what happened in the past three and a half years.
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