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Chinese officials investigating fake Apple Stores as customers complain - Page 2

post #41 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Implying that's the issue here.

What is the issue then if not decoration, naming, employee clothing?

(I know, in Western legal systems the easiest thing to get them on a hook is the use of the word Apple. And somewhere along the line a reseller broke some agreements with Apple by selling to this 'Apple Stoer'.)

Quote:
How do you NOT get the receipt the instant you purchase your item? Even our Amish grocer gives receipts. They're printed from a cash register hooked to a car battery, for heaven's sake.

That is not exactly like this everywhere in the world. A few years back in Greece I wanted to have a receipt in a restaurant, I was presented with a box of receipts to choose one I liked.
post #42 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Affiliate program? Why? That's absurd. China is one of the leading copyright and trademark abusers in the world, and quite frankly they should vigrously enforce internationally recognized protections or be kicked out of the WTO.

Frankly, their monetary policy (pegging the yuan to roughly 1/7th the value of the dollar) has enabled them to become a well regarded superpower at the expense of other nations.

Excellent post.
-spent years in China
-graduate degree in economics

It seems you really know what's going on. Incredible, because the US government does not. They actually don't get it. LOL sigh. As you know, China got most favored nation (MFN) status from Bill Clinton. Bill couldn't imagine why it was so important. Well, it allowed China to hold down the Yuan without our being able to threaten them with a tariff in response. So they milk the Western world for everything we are worth, while they enjoy WTO and MFN status. It is absurd....ly ingenous!
post #43 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

IP law has been around in some form or the other in the West at least since the 13th century.

Has it occurred to anyone here to pay the Chinese royalties for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics?

best post ever



simply the best



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post #44 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I like how they have Dyson fans on the second floor. Hilarious.

They could be fake too... Not sure if these kinds of models are the ones you're referring to:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/06/k...ripped-off-mu/

Edit: Pipped.
post #45 of 116
For all we know the goods are stolen. No receipt for a month? Those 'customers' should check their serial numbers.

People buy and sell stolen Apple products in the US all the time, why not in China? I say assume guilt before innocence with a situation like this.
post #46 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

They could be fake too... Not sure if these kinds of models are the ones you're referring to:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/06/k...ripped-off-mu/

These are everywhere in Hong Kong. Go to Apliu Street and you can't walk 20 feet without seeing them in another shop front, for between HK$200-$300 (US$25-40).
post #47 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

How do you NOT get the receipt the instant you purchase your item? Even our Amish grocer gives receipts. They're printed from a cash register hooked to a car battery, for heaven's sake.

Wow, you have quite an interesting grocery experience. But in Asia, receipts vary a lot in availability. Some "official" receipts need to be literally "rubber-stamped" with the company's "chop" (a throwback to colonial seals). Many shops in Asia do not give receipts. In some cases so they can doctor their tax returns, in some cases like this fake Apple Store for obvious reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Come on, this guy's just playing with them. "Huge Junkie" is not a name. This is, of course, tongue in cheek as I realize it's quite a valid name. And probably pronounced 'who youn-kai'.

Anyway it should be pronounced "Who-June-Kai". Youn would be if it was Hu Yun Kai. At least if following standard Pinyin of which my memory grows hazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

That's exactly the issue. If they are selling genuine Apple products, can that reseller make their store look like an Apple store?

It all depends on what's allowed by Chinese law. In the U.S., a store couldn't use Apple's logo and other images like this without Apple's consent.

See below re: Apple Reseller System

Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Why are the ethics and morals in China different than here?

Does the West have a right to impose its values on other cultures?

Where did our (Western) sense of morality come from?

The Western sense of morality comes from years of dealing with less efficient systems. In Olde England you had beheadings and hangings for all kinds of crimes ranging from trivial to grotesque. Then they realised this wasn't very efficient. The US went through periods of the Wild West and corruption eg. 1930's Chicago. Progressively, systems were put in place as it was better alternatives to less efficient or less fair systems.

The West has a right to impose these "values" when doing business with countries like China. If they want to have the benefits of trade then China needs to play ball too. Of course, China gets to see a lot of the ball still despite rampant infringement. Because Western corporations are living large of the advantages of how cheap things are to manufacture, etc.

In Malaysia for many years Microsoft and Adobe software was rampantly pirated and most computer shops in cities had pirated CDs you could easily buy. That's all been tightened up and recently certain file sharing websites have been officially blocked by the local ISPs (stupidly it's just a DNS block so if you use OpenDNS you have full access). No doubt there's all kinds of pressure from Microsoft and a lot of other Western countries. Malaysia had to "play ball" in this case because they also want foreign investment from Western countries.

But it's pick and choose with other Western "values". Running red lights at night or even in the evening is considered normal in many parts of the city.

With other Western "values" though in Asia it's, "Oooh, we're not free and loose and immoral like them, having sex all over the place and showing our boobs on beaches or wearing skimpy clothing in public...". That's the kind of hypocrisy that's prevalent in Asia. Or if you're more forgiving, "cultural differences".

I don't care about gunpowder, silk or Islamic culture having invented the number system or astrology or what not. We're talking here and now in the 21st century in a globalised economy with multiple international treaties and international systems of business. Not to mention globally accepted notions of basic human rights. We have to work together as a species because that's a major way to survive and improve our lives. It's also an inevitability with the rise of the Internet and widespread travel and migration, everyone is exposed so much to other cultures, most people naturally starts to seek common ground and understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheff View Post

Apple should have an affilate programs with these fake stores. Obviously whoever opens them up care about recreating the look and feel of apple stores. It would be silly to just close them down (especially in china where it may take quite some time for apple to cover the country in stores). Maybe make an agreement where they can display apple logo, but must also clearly state affiliate or something like that to let people know its not 100% apple experience.

I think we have those in US too (affiliates I mean).

Apple has a very defined system of Apple Authorised Resellers and Apple Premium Resellers all over the world. Since the official Apple Stores came up there are fairly regulated guidelines on enabling Apple Authorised Resellers to have well presented Apple-related parts of their shops, and Apple Premium Resellers are very similar to official Apple Stores. However the Apple Premium Resellers have to comply to provide a very Apple-like experience without encroaching on official Apple Store territory. With the China fake store, like most things with piracy and fakes in China, it's just one step too far.

Enthusiasm is just one of the factors in becoming an Apple Premium Reseller. You have to show that you can live up to the expectations the public will have, such as service, receipts, genuine nature of products, honest communication and pricing, etc. But with Apple expanding so rapidly it is difficult to police this and protect the brand. Throughout Asia the Apple grey market continues to be extremely widespread, because in some cases it's much better than going through the hoops of becoming an Authorized or Premium Reseller.
post #48 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

These are everywhere in Hong Kong. Go to Apliu Street and you can't walk 20 feet without seeing them in another shop front, for between HK$200-$300 (US$25-40).

Well, all we need to do to advance humanity is pass any alien technology we find to the Chinese.

Let them loose on Area 51 and we'll have Chinese flying cars and spaceships in a jiffy!
post #49 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Thoughts to ponder:

Why are the ethics and morals in China different than here?

Does the West have a right to impose its values on other cultures?

Where did our (Western) sense of morality come from?

Its not that different. Ask Microsoft. These are probably doing better than MS Stores.
post #50 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

They could be fake too... Not sure if these kinds of models are the ones you're referring to:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/06/k...ripped-off-mu/

Edit: Pipped.

I love to have one. If Dyson lower the price they can make a killing. the first time i saw it, it took me 5 min to figure how it must work. The production cost is probably similar to regular fans.
post #51 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by cy_starkman View Post

It is written law that the USA has a debt ceiling but that has no meaning, the only thing that matters is the current meaning of the party. Which is to get reelected, as opposed to governing.

LOL

Really! Last time I checked it took an act of Congress to change the ceiling, but I appreciate you explaining to me that this is either wrong, or it has no meaning that! Guess I am also wrong in the belief that the Congress was elected by the american people.
post #52 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

IP law has been around in some form or the other in the West at least since the 13th century.

Has it occurred to anyone here to pay the Chinese royalties for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics?

Absolutely. Show me a valid patent for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics and you should be able to get people to pay. Or show me a valid trademark that someone is violating.

Hint: intellectual property rights for those things was lost ages ago. Thanks for proving that you have no concept of intellectual property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Affiliate program? Why? That's absurd. China is one of the leading copyright and trademark abusers in the world, and quite frankly they should vigrously enforce internationally recognized protections or be kicked out of the WTO.

Frankly, their monetary policy (pegging the yuan to roughly 1/7th the value of the dollar) has enabled them to become a well regarded superpower at the expense of other nations.

I agree that their monetary policy has turned them into a superpower - because our politicians were too wimpy and/or greedy to object back in the 80's and 90's. It's not true, however, that the currency is pegged to the dollar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cy_starkman View Post

It is written law that the USA has a debt ceiling but that has no meaning, the only thing that matters is the current meaning of the party.

Wrong. It is written into law and must be obeyed. The fact that Congress can raise the ceiling doesn't mean that the law doesn't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter236 View Post

Their yuan is not pegged to any currency. The yuan has appreciated 25% in the past few years. If the yuan goes up more, that will only mean they can buy more oil and natural resources more cheaply, thereby increasing their competitiveness.

What do you mean by their yuan is 1/7 of the value of the dollar? The Japanese yen is 1/80 the value of the dollar, and so what?

The US is manipulating its currency by printing lots of money, should the US be kicked out of the WTO?

The difference is that printing extra money is not a manipulation of the market. What China has been doing for decades is.

Technically, the yuan is not linked to the dollar any more (it was until a short while ago), but is linked to a basket of currencies. They do not have a fixed exchange rate, but rather the government controls the exchange rate in a very narrow artificial band.

China has artificially weakened their currency, making their exports dirt cheap while making it very expensive to import products. If their currency was allowed to float (like the Yen or Euro, for example), it would be at a very different level - and our trade deficit with China would be dramatically smaller. They have enriched themselves by manipulating their currency - which should never have been allowed.

The reason it was allowed is that the unfair currency level meant that our companies and consumers were able to buy cheaper goods - for a while. Unfortunately, buying cheaper goods became an addiction to the point where there are entire categories of goods that are no longer produced in the US in sufficient quantities to meet our needs, so we are now at the mercy of imports for many key items.

Here's a description of currency manipulation as practiced by the Chinese:
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/ec...-manipulation/

Fortunately, China is allowing the exchange rate to drift very slowly toward free market values, but the damage has already been done.
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post #53 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightstriker View Post

I love to have one. If Dyson lower the price they can make a killing. the first time i saw it, it took me 5 min to figure how it must work. The production cost is probably similar to regular fans.

People say that about premium brands all the time - and it's generally not true.

First, companies are free to set their own prices. Do you really think that you know more about their market elasticity than they do? Do you really believe that Dyson did not consider what price they should charge for their fans in order to maximize their profits?

Second, if you look at the products of companies like Dyson and Apple, their costs are clearly higher than the cheap knock-offs that you apparently prefer to buy. There is a cost of quality.

Finally, you're ignoring the overhead costs. Dyson spends an enormous amount of money on R&D. So even if the actual out of pocket manufacturing cost of their fans WAS the same as other fans, the selling price would have to be higher to cover both the R&D cost and the risk/reward cost.
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post #54 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

You have to understand that China is the pirating capital of the world. They just don't have a moral/ethical problem with copying.

This is part of the growth for a society. Japan used to copy everything the US did, then Taiwan did the same thing. Now it is China. I think the blogger says it best: Because of the rapid economic growth, the Chinese has this "Anything is possible" mentality.

It is because most people in China only see their neighbors became rich seemingly overnight, they didn't see it took companies years to build the brand and its reputation. Give them another 20 years, they will learn to do the right thing.
post #55 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

That's exactly the issue. If they are selling genuine Apple products, can that reseller make their store look like an Apple store?

It all depends on what's allowed by Chinese law. In the U.S., a store couldn't use Apple's logo and other images like this without Apple's consent.


You have to understand that China is the pirating capital of the world. They just don't have a moral/ethical problem with copying. It's not as high in their list of 'values' is it is in Western Civilization. A friend of mine went to Beijing on business and bought 'North Face' gear from pushcarts on the street. Wanna make any guess on whether the stuff was genuine or not?


Thoughts to ponder:

Why are the ethics and morals in China different than here?

Does the West have a right to impose its values on other cultures?

Where did our (Western) sense of morality come from?

I can appreciate your thoughtfulness, but, with many Chinese customers complaining upon finding out, I think their ethical standards are somewhat aligned with ours here.
post #56 of 116
All Knockoff's!

How in hell would anyone get so much Apple stock, without APPLE asking "Who's this for?"

- Apple ships that much goods to an address they know noting about?
- Apple ships that much product anywhere, and they'd ask - what's up!"
- Ok, so they purchased it all from the likes of MacConnection, or one of the other big boys and they don't ask any questions? I mean, this had to set someone back a few bucks, and hell, some of this stuff is on Back-order, Out of Stock, 2, 3, 4 weeks or more to get.

All knockoffs, and heads will roll. This is going to lead to a MAJOR knockoff ring.

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post #57 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post



Thoughts to ponder:

Why are the ethics and morals in China different than here?

Desperation by way of rationalization.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post


Does the West have a right to impose its values on other cultures?

If you're a member of the WTO you signed on. Wait until the shoe's on the other foot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Where did our (Western) sense of morality come from?

Human nature.
post #58 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

IP law has been around in some form or the other in the West at least since the 13th century.

Has it occurred to anyone here to pay the Chinese royalties for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics?

Don't have to. Patents (and copyrights) were originally issued for 25 years.
post #59 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

People say that about premium brands all the time - and it's generally not true.

First, companies are free to set their own prices. Do you really think that you know more about their market elasticity than they do? Do you really believe that Dyson did not consider what price they should charge for their fans in order to maximize their profits?

Second, if you look at the products of companies like Dyson and Apple, their costs are clearly higher than the cheap knock-offs that you apparently prefer to buy. There is a cost of quality.

Finally, you're ignoring the overhead costs. Dyson spends an enormous amount of money on R&D. So even if the actual out of pocket manufacturing cost of their fans WAS the same as other fans, the selling price would have to be higher to cover both the R&D cost and the risk/reward cost.

Actually, for most products, the retail cost has little to do with the manufacturing cost or even the R&D and overhead costs. What we're really paying for are the marketing costs. That's why we pay $25 for a cotton t-shirt manufactured in India.
post #60 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

Actually, for most products, the retail cost has little to do with the manufacturing cost or even the R&D and overhead costs. What we're really paying for are the marketing costs. That's why we pay $25 for a cotton t-shirt manufactured in India.

Your first sentence is correct. The second is not.

You're paying the price that the seller believes the market will bear. In determining that price, they consider their costs, but also the value to the customer, how much competition their is, their product's competitive advantages, and so on. You're not paying for marketing costs any more than you're paying for raw materials. You pay (in general) market price - which is determined by the fair exchange of "I'll sell it for this much" and "I'll buy it for this much".

It is also not correct to say that selling price has nothing to do with manufacturing costs. While I agree that manufacturing costs alone do not set selling price, they DO, however generally put a floor on selling price. If it costs you $100 in out of pocket costs to make something, you are not likely to sell it for less than that (other than, occasionally, a loss-leader promotion).
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post #61 of 116
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post #62 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Does the West have a right to impose its values on other cultures?

Huh - I was unaware that fundamental issues of right and wrong were "morals". Nice dodge.

Quote:
Where did our (Western) sense of morality come from?

Again, nice smoke and mirrors.

I always love it when people try to argue that crap like socialism can work and in the same breath that capitalism is evil.

Human nature and economics dictate the rise or fall of a society. You can not have a society when there is an "every man for himself" mentality. It breaks down.

I do have to hand it to China's leaders - they may have been slow to warm to the importance of stamping out crap like this, but again thievery creates uncertainty and uncertainty is bad for business. In a smart society, the problem becomes self-correcting as in this story with customers becoming outraged and demanding accountability.

I don't think not being ripped off has anything to do with "western morals" - unless you are implying that the west is somehow morally superior and we should take pity on the heathen Chinese or something?
post #63 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Are you sure the Chinese laws are written as such?

Even if the laws weren't written as such the Chinese consumers obviously had a problem with being deceived - as I believe any consumer anywhere in the world would.
post #64 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Are you sure the Chinese laws are written as such?

The Chinese are shocked, shocked I tell you, to find counterfeiting going on within their borders by their boarders, Rick.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post

Look at how China has treated its citizens in the last 100 years and you won't be pedaling your "morality is relative" crap and asking dumb doe-eyed questions about whether we have the right to "impose" our values on China.

Let me reverse your question: Chinese values led to the death of tens of millions of Chinese citizens during that little snake Mao's pathetic Cultural Revolution. Does that mean it's okay for anyone to kill tens of millions of Chinese, because that's the "Chinese way", and god forbid we should ever question someone's else's values?

I'll grant you all those inhumanities as totally representative of the worst of human behavior, long as you look equally unblinkingly at how the current US basically stole the best part of the continent from those already occupying it - in a series of deliberate acts that took centuries to carry out - and which also caused the deaths (and much more suffering, some of which continues) of millions of native Americans.

Oh, and that slavery biz stuff too. Almost forgot that one.

And then we can both high-five over the defeat of fascism in 1945. Or something.

Just watch yer glass house when throwin' rocks is all I'm sayin'.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

IP law has been around in some form or the other in the West at least since the 13th century.

Has it occurred to anyone here to pay the Chinese royalties for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics?

Or the inventors of the Hndu-Arabic number system??

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post #65 of 116
Out of all the minutiæ you pseudo-intellectuals have been spouting, this is the only paragraph worth anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

...in the 21st century in a globalised economy with multiple international treaties and international systems of business. Not to mention globally accepted notions of basic human rights. We have to work together as a species because that's a major way to survive and improve our lives. It's also an inevitability with the rise of the Internet and widespread travel and migration, everyone is exposed so much to other cultures, most people naturally starts to seek common ground and understanding...

What they're doing isn't wrong because WE SAY it's wrong.

It's wrong because IT'S WRONG.
post #66 of 116
"You have to understand that China is the pirating capital of the world. They just don't have a moral/ethical problem with copying". I agree, but that doesn't make it right.
post #67 of 116
So it takes costumer complaints to stop forgeries/piracy? Not that it's illegal?
post #68 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix View Post

So it takes costumer complaints to stop forgeries/piracy? Not that it's illegal?

We've gone through illegality and China's inability (or perhaps unwillingness) to fight (or perhaps recognize) intellectual property theft in this thread already.

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post #69 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

The fans are probably fake too.

In China, even the fanbois are fake.
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post #70 of 116
Who cares as long as Apple sales in China triple again next year?
Apple needs to have 300 Apple Stores in China within 5 yrs.
post #71 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

I take this to be inspirational that one small blog post -- or news tip -- can create a global media firestorm. Sometimes this is good. I think of many contemporary issues in this light. Getting an "angle" on an issue can create a sound byte that changes the world. Gen Electric paying no taxes ?! Pure gold. Fake Apple store by Chinese fakers? More pure gold. This isn't news; China has been violating every copyright for 15+ years. But it's the presentation that was brilliant. That type of cleverness could have torn the balls off GW Bush's administration in 2003 during the Iraq invasion over nothing. Just mentioning a point of view.

Your intelligent, considered observation has no place here. Sadly.
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post #72 of 116
The Chinese government is "investigating?" Can you say . . . prima facie?
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post #73 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtm135 View Post

What they're doing isn't wrong because WE SAY it's wrong.

It's wrong because IT'S WRONG.

Wrong. There is no objective right and wrong. What is generally considered "right" and "wrong" is determined by general consensus due to common biological and cultural factors. It is wrong precisely because we say it is wrong, and it is our right to project our moral judgements on others if their "values" are infringing on our rights. That is exactly the principle our penal system is based on. When you live in a community (even a global one), you must respect the rights and desires of others if you want to sustain a mutually beneficial relationship.
post #74 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrob View Post

There is no objective right and wrong.

Wait, how do you live?

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post #75 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrob View Post

Wrong. There is no objective right and wrong. What is generally considered "right" and "wrong" is determined by general consensus due to common biological and cultural factors. It is wrong precisely because we say it is wrong, and it is our right to project our moral judgements on others if their "values" are infringing on our rights. That is exactly the principle our penal system is based on. When you live in a community (even a global one), you must respect the rights and desires of others if you want to sustain a mutually beneficial relationship.

Yep, murder is acceptable in some societies (if you're a gangster of course).
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post #76 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by city View Post

Yep, murder is acceptable in some societies (if you're a gangster of course).

That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.

Same as, just because there is a primitive society somewhere that still prays to their Gods to make their crops grow, doesn't mean there's no such thing as science, it just means they haven't discovered it yet.
post #77 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.

Same as, just because there is a primitive society somewhere that still prays to their Gods to make their crops grow, doesn't mean there's no such thing as science, it just means they haven't discovered it yet.

It's objectively "wrong" to break the rules (contract or law).
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post #78 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by city View Post

It's objectively "wrong" to break the rules (contract or law).

And the rules are just arbitrary? I don't hold to that. It's just not that kind of universe. And I don't mean anything superstitious by that, quite the opposite, I mean that everything is patterns and mechanics and cause and effect. So whenever someone insists something is arbitrary or culturally relative I just cock an eyebrow.
post #79 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post

Look at how China has treated its citizens in the last 100 years and you won't be pedaling your "morality is relative" crap and asking dumb doe-eyed questions about whether we have the right to "impose" our values on China.

Let me reverse your question: Chinese values led to the death of tens of millions of Chinese citizens during that little snake Mao's pathetic Cultural Revolution. Does that mean it's okay for anyone to kill tens of millions of Chinese, because that's the "Chinese way", and god forbid we should ever question someone's else's values?

His questions are legit. If China has no IP precedent, and is still ruled by the communist party, it may be in our best interests to turn them into a capitalist democracy, but will they accept it? For other issues and this, may we create new enemies, perhaps a new terror type threat?

The US has profited off of China's labor internationally, but not much directly off of the Chinese population. If we can't, is it in our best interest to eventually limit the biz we do with them if they manipulate currency in their favor, steal private IP, and hack our govt for military and state secrets?

If it's going to be one sided in their favor we'd better turn them our way or limit our investment.
post #80 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.

Ahh but even when they have discovered the 'objective right and wrong' they have no way to tell that it's really the objective one do they?

So how is the 'objective' morality in any way objective? At best you could argue that there is an 'optimal' morality, which is optimal in some utilitarian sense and even that is unclear - optimal morality may well depend on environment.

The problem with the belief in an 'objective right and wrong' is that the people who believe in it invariably think that their standards are the objective ones and everybody else is merely misguided.
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