Chinese officials investigating fake Apple Stores as customers complain - Page 2

What is the issue then if not decoration, naming, employee clothing?

(I know, in Western legal systems the easiest thing to get them on a hook is the use of the word Apple. And somewhere along the line a reseller broke some agreements with Apple by selling to this 'Apple Stoer'.)


That is not exactly like this everywhere in the world. A few years back in Greece I wanted to have a receipt in a restaurant, I was presented with a box of receipts to choose one I liked.

Excellent post.
-spent years in China
-graduate degree in economics

It seems you really know what's going on. Incredible, because the US government does not. They actually don't get it. LOL sigh. As you know, China got most favored nation (MFN) status from Bill Clinton. Bill couldn't imagine why it was so important. Well, it allowed China to hold down the Yuan without our being able to threaten them with a tariff in response. So they milk the Western world for everything we are worth, while they enjoy WTO and MFN status. It is absurd....ly ingenous!

best post ever



simply the best



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They could be fake too... Not sure if these kinds of models are the ones you're referring to:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/06/k...ripped-off-mu/

Edit: Pipped.

For all we know the goods are stolen. No receipt for a month? Those 'customers' should check their serial numbers.

People buy and sell stolen Apple products in the US all the time, why not in China? I say assume guilt before innocence with a situation like this.

These are everywhere in Hong Kong. Go to Apliu Street and you can't walk 20 feet without seeing them in another shop front, for between HK$200-$300 (US$25-40).

Wow, you have quite an interesting grocery experience. But in Asia, receipts vary a lot in availability. Some "official" receipts need to be literally "rubber-stamped" with the company's "chop" (a throwback to colonial seals). Many shops in Asia do not give receipts. In some cases so they can doctor their tax returns, in some cases like this fake Apple Store for obvious reasons.


Anyway it should be pronounced "Who-June-Kai". Youn would be if it was Hu Yun Kai. At least if following standard Pinyin of which my memory grows hazy.


See below re: Apple Reseller System


The Western sense of morality comes from years of dealing with less efficient systems. In Olde England you had beheadings and hangings for all kinds of crimes ranging from trivial to grotesque. Then they realised this wasn't very efficient. The US went through periods of the Wild West and corruption eg. 1930's Chicago. Progressively, systems were put in place as it was better alternatives to less efficient or less fair systems.

The West has a right to impose these "values" when doing business with countries like China. If they want to have the benefits of trade then China needs to play ball too. Of course, China gets to see a lot of the ball still despite rampant infringement. Because Western corporations are living large of the advantages of how cheap things are to manufacture, etc.

In Malaysia for many years Microsoft and Adobe software was rampantly pirated and most computer shops in cities had pirated CDs you could easily buy. That's all been tightened up and recently certain file sharing websites have been officially blocked by the local ISPs (stupidly it's just a DNS block so if you use OpenDNS you have full access). No doubt there's all kinds of pressure from Microsoft and a lot of other Western countries. Malaysia had to "play ball" in this case because they also want foreign investment from Western countries.

But it's pick and choose with other Western "values". Running red lights at night or even in the evening is considered normal in many parts of the city.

With other Western "values" though in Asia it's, "Oooh, we're not free and loose and immoral like them, having sex all over the place and showing our boobs on beaches or wearing skimpy clothing in public...". That's the kind of hypocrisy that's prevalent in Asia. Or if you're more forgiving, "cultural differences".

I don't care about gunpowder, silk or Islamic culture having invented the number system or astrology or what not. We're talking here and now in the 21st century in a globalised economy with multiple international treaties and international systems of business. Not to mention globally accepted notions of basic human rights. We have to work together as a species because that's a major way to survive and improve our lives. It's also an inevitability with the rise of the Internet and widespread travel and migration, everyone is exposed so much to other cultures, most people naturally starts to seek common ground and understanding.


Apple has a very defined system of Apple Authorised Resellers and Apple Premium Resellers all over the world. Since the official Apple Stores came up there are fairly regulated guidelines on enabling Apple Authorised Resellers to have well presented Apple-related parts of their shops, and Apple Premium Resellers are very similar to official Apple Stores. However the Apple Premium Resellers have to comply to provide a very Apple-like experience without encroaching on official Apple Store territory. With the China fake store, like most things with piracy and fakes in China, it's just one step too far.

Enthusiasm is just one of the factors in becoming an Apple Premium Reseller. You have to show that you can live up to the expectations the public will have, such as service, receipts, genuine nature of products, honest communication and pricing, etc. But with Apple expanding so rapidly it is difficult to police this and protect the brand. Throughout Asia the Apple grey market continues to be extremely widespread, because in some cases it's much better than going through the hoops of becoming an Authorized or Premium Reseller.

Well, all we need to do to advance humanity is pass any alien technology we find to the Chinese.

Let them loose on Area 51 and we'll have Chinese flying cars and spaceships in a jiffy!

Its not that different. Ask Microsoft. These are probably doing better than MS Stores.

I love to have one. If Dyson lower the price they can make a killing. the first time i saw it, it took me 5 min to figure how it must work. The production cost is probably similar to regular fans.

Really! Last time I checked it took an act of Congress to change the ceiling, but I appreciate you explaining to me that this is either wrong, or it has no meaning that! Guess I am also wrong in the belief that the Congress was elected by the american people.

Absolutely. Show me a valid patent for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics and you should be able to get people to pay. Or show me a valid trademark that someone is violating.

Hint: intellectual property rights for those things was lost ages ago. Thanks for proving that you have no concept of intellectual property.


I agree that their monetary policy has turned them into a superpower - because our politicians were too wimpy and/or greedy to object back in the 80's and 90's. It's not true, however, that the currency is pegged to the dollar.


Wrong. It is written into law and must be obeyed. The fact that Congress can raise the ceiling doesn't mean that the law doesn't exist.


The difference is that printing extra money is not a manipulation of the market. What China has been doing for decades is.

Technically, the yuan is not linked to the dollar any more (it was until a short while ago), but is linked to a basket of currencies. They do not have a fixed exchange rate, but rather the government controls the exchange rate in a very narrow artificial band.

China has artificially weakened their currency, making their exports dirt cheap while making it very expensive to import products. If their currency was allowed to float (like the Yen or Euro, for example), it would be at a very different level - and our trade deficit with China would be dramatically smaller. They have enriched themselves by manipulating their currency - which should never have been allowed.

The reason it was allowed is that the unfair currency level meant that our companies and consumers were able to buy cheaper goods - for a while. Unfortunately, buying cheaper goods became an addiction to the point where there are entire categories of goods that are no longer produced in the US in sufficient quantities to meet our needs, so we are now at the mercy of imports for many key items.

Here's a description of currency manipulation as practiced by the Chinese:
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/ec...-manipulation/

Fortunately, China is allowing the exchange rate to drift very slowly toward free market values, but the damage has already been done.

People say that about premium brands all the time - and it's generally not true.

First, companies are free to set their own prices. Do you really think that you know more about their market elasticity than they do? Do you really believe that Dyson did not consider what price they should charge for their fans in order to maximize their profits?

Second, if you look at the products of companies like Dyson and Apple, their costs are clearly higher than the cheap knock-offs that you apparently prefer to buy. There is a cost of quality.

Finally, you're ignoring the overhead costs. Dyson spends an enormous amount of money on R&D. So even if the actual out of pocket manufacturing cost of their fans WAS the same as other fans, the selling price would have to be higher to cover both the R&D cost and the risk/reward cost.

This is part of the growth for a society. Japan used to copy everything the US did, then Taiwan did the same thing. Now it is China. I think the blogger says it best: Because of the rapid economic growth, the Chinese has this "Anything is possible" mentality.

It is because most people in China only see their neighbors became rich seemingly overnight, they didn't see it took companies years to build the brand and its reputation. Give them another 20 years, they will learn to do the right thing.

I can appreciate your thoughtfulness, but, with many Chinese customers complaining upon finding out, I think their ethical standards are somewhat aligned with ours here.

All Knockoff's!

How in hell would anyone get so much Apple stock, without APPLE asking "Who's this for?"

- Apple ships that much goods to an address they know noting about?
- Apple ships that much product anywhere, and they'd ask - what's up!"
- Ok, so they purchased it all from the likes of MacConnection, or one of the other big boys and they don't ask any questions? I mean, this had to set someone back a few bucks, and hell, some of this stuff is on Back-order, Out of Stock, 2, 3, 4 weeks or more to get.

All knockoffs, and heads will roll. This is going to lead to a MAJOR knockoff ring.

Skip

Desperation by way of rationalization.

If you're a member of the WTO you signed on. Wait until the shoe's on the other foot.

Human nature.

Don't have to. Patents (and copyrights) were originally issued for 25 years.

Actually, for most products, the retail cost has little to do with the manufacturing cost or even the R&D and overhead costs. What we're really paying for are the marketing costs. That's why we pay $25 for a cotton t-shirt manufactured in India.

Your first sentence is correct. The second is not.

You're paying the price that the seller believes the market will bear. In determining that price, they consider their costs, but also the value to the customer, how much competition their is, their product's competitive advantages, and so on. You're not paying for marketing costs any more than you're paying for raw materials. You pay (in general) market price - which is determined by the fair exchange of "I'll sell it for this much" and "I'll buy it for this much".

It is also not correct to say that selling price has nothing to do with manufacturing costs. While I agree that manufacturing costs alone do not set selling price, they DO, however generally put a floor on selling price. If it costs you $100 in out of pocket costs to make something, you are not likely to sell it for less than that (other than, occasionally, a loss-leader promotion).

deleted

Huh - I was unaware that fundamental issues of right and wrong were "morals". Nice dodge.


Again, nice smoke and mirrors.

I always love it when people try to argue that crap like socialism can work and in the same breath that capitalism is evil.

Human nature and economics dictate the rise or fall of a society. You can not have a society when there is an "every man for himself" mentality. It breaks down.

I do have to hand it to China's leaders - they may have been slow to warm to the importance of stamping out crap like this, but again thievery creates uncertainty and uncertainty is bad for business. In a smart society, the problem becomes self-correcting as in this story with customers becoming outraged and demanding accountability.

I don't think not being ripped off has anything to do with "western morals" - unless you are implying that the west is somehow morally superior and we should take pity on the heathen Chinese or something?

Even if the laws weren't written as such the Chinese consumers obviously had a problem with being deceived - as I believe any consumer anywhere in the world would.

The Chinese are shocked, shocked I tell you, to find counterfeiting going on within their borders by their boarders, Rick.....


I'll grant you all those inhumanities as totally representative of the worst of human behavior, long as you look equally unblinkingly at how the current US basically stole the best part of the continent from those already occupying it - in a series of deliberate acts that took centuries to carry out - and which also caused the deaths (and much more suffering, some of which continues) of millions of native Americans.

Oh, and that slavery biz stuff too. Almost forgot that one.

And then we can both high-five over the defeat of fascism in 1945. Or something.

Just watch yer glass house when throwin' rocks is all I'm sayin'.....


Or the inventors of the Hndu-Arabic number system??

Out of all the minutiæ you pseudo-intellectuals have been spouting, this is the only paragraph worth anything.


What they're doing isn't wrong because WE SAY it's wrong.

It's wrong because IT'S WRONG.

"You have to understand that China is the pirating capital of the world. They just don't have a moral/ethical problem with copying". I agree, but that doesn't make it right.

So it takes costumer complaints to stop forgeries/piracy? Not that it's illegal?

We've gone through illegality and China's inability (or perhaps unwillingness) to fight (or perhaps recognize) intellectual property theft in this thread already.

In China, even the fanbois are fake.

Who cares as long as Apple sales in China triple again next year?
Apple needs to have 300 Apple Stores in China within 5 yrs.

Your intelligent, considered observation has no place here. Sadly.

The Chinese government is "investigating?" Can you say . . . prima facie?

Wrong. There is no objective right and wrong. What is generally considered "right" and "wrong" is determined by general consensus due to common biological and cultural factors. It is wrong precisely because we say it is wrong, and it is our right to project our moral judgements on others if their "values" are infringing on our rights. That is exactly the principle our penal system is based on. When you live in a community (even a global one), you must respect the rights and desires of others if you want to sustain a mutually beneficial relationship.

Wait, how do you live?

Yep, murder is acceptable in some societies (if you're a gangster of course).

That doesn't mean there's no objective right and wrong, it might just mean that particular society hasn't discovered it yet.

Same as, just because there is a primitive society somewhere that still prays to their Gods to make their crops grow, doesn't mean there's no such thing as science, it just means they haven't discovered it yet.

It's objectively "wrong" to break the rules (contract or law).

And the rules are just arbitrary? I don't hold to that. It's just not that kind of universe. And I don't mean anything superstitious by that, quite the opposite, I mean that everything is patterns and mechanics and cause and effect. So whenever someone insists something is arbitrary or culturally relative I just cock an eyebrow.

His questions are legit. If China has no IP precedent, and is still ruled by the communist party, it may be in our best interests to turn them into a capitalist democracy, but will they accept it? For other issues and this, may we create new enemies, perhaps a new terror type threat?

The US has profited off of China's labor internationally, but not much directly off of the Chinese population. If we can't, is it in our best interest to eventually limit the biz we do with them if they manipulate currency in their favor, steal private IP, and hack our govt for military and state secrets?

If it's going to be one sided in their favor we'd better turn them our way or limit our investment.

Ahh but even when they have discovered the 'objective right and wrong' they have no way to tell that it's really the objective one do they?

So how is the 'objective' morality in any way objective? At best you could argue that there is an 'optimal' morality, which is optimal in some utilitarian sense and even that is unclear - optimal morality may well depend on environment.

The problem with the belief in an 'objective right and wrong' is that the people who believe in it invariably think that their standards are the objective ones and everybody else is merely misguided.