Chinese officials investigating fake Apple Stores as customers complain - Page 3

The universe is full of arbitrary things, in fact it's a fundamental part of modern theoretical physics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontan...metry_breaking

Sir, before these thoughts, I'd want you to ponder over the morality and ethics of these:

Within the last century, European nations colonized countries in Asia and Africa, draining their wealth, imposing draconian rule, killing entire populations, etc. For example, India's share of world's GDP was about 23% when the Europeans arrived at its shores in the 18th century; it was less then 1% when they left in the 20th. FWIW, even our country (USA) wouldn't be here if Europeans had not massacred the natives and their bison. Even the US had colonies, like Phillipines.

Within the last sixty years, after the retrenchment of colonization, the Ottoman Empire was chopped by the Brits into countries that didn't exist before (Iraq, Kuwait, etc.), and countries created anew (Israel out of Palestine). All this is the cause of current ferment. Also, the partition of India and Pakistan was in a hurry, because the Brits were in a rush to leave. The toll of human lives lost in this partition is the biggest in the history of the world because of migration.

Within the last fifty years, we, at the instigation of the Brits (again!), toppled the democratically elected regime of Iraq because it nationalized the oil industry, and put in our stooge, the Shah. The reason was that British Petroleum (now BP) wanted to make money in this newly discovered commodity.

Within the last decade, we have invaded a country (Iraq) on false pretence. Yes, Saddam was a bad man, and committed atrocities, but there are so many bad men we are in bed with like the Sauds and leaders of China. Have you seen a photograph of Bush holding the hand of the Emir of Saudi Arabia?

To this day, we elect to look the other way while one country (Pakistan), which is the root of all terrorist evil, develops nuclear weapons and instead we triple their aid for five years?

Once you find the morally/ethics in the situations I've laid out, I'll be happy to ponder and answer your set.

Peace.

Hmm, the way that's phrased you seem to be implying that Britain created Israel the way it created Kuwait and Iraq. That is far from the truth.

From wiki:

After World War II, Britain found itself in fierce conflict with the Jewish community, as the Haganah joined Irgun and Lehi in an armed struggle against British rule. At the same time, thousands of Jewish Holocaust survivors and refugees from Europe sought a new life in Palestine, but were turned away or rounded up and placed in detention camps by the British. In 1947, the British government announced it would withdraw from the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.

Well said, my friend.

Thankfully, the USD is still the world's reserve currency. All we need to do is print a few more billion, just like the Fed did several months ago.

I bought mine from the Mapple Store. "The light shows that it's off".

Show me a valid piece of IP in China for Apple's store design.

Until then, shut up with your silly arrogance.

Whose 'law'? Chinese? US? International? Universal?

What 'contract'? How does your naive worldview address third-party externalities imposed by the contacting parties (i.e., parties outside the direct contract who are affected by the contract)?

Some very good thoughts there! Worth reposting in full.

World Trade Organization (maybe)

Apple Stores always give you the option to have your receipt emailed to you instead of printing one right there at the store. That's how you do NOT get the receipt the instant you purchase your item.
The fake Apple Store probably imitated this practice but not for the sake of customer convenience but for the sake of tax evasion.

Nah, you miss my point.

The point is that "law" is variable and modified by the party to suit their ends, which irrelevent of being China or the USA is not so much about good governance but about staying in power or suiting their mates.

Surely no educated or intelligent person who has spent time observing the actions of our elected non-representatives thinks that they operate much differently no matter the imaginary governance system they operate in.

Laws are governance, politics is not governance, it is politics.

As for China and its dodgy anti humanitarian ways (which have nothing to do with a fake shop), there are no right nations only righteous ones. America, Australia, Britain, whoever have killed plenty of their own people and others, allowed terrible sadness.

It is best to stay on topic. My point is that China's cultural ways are not so bad and perhaps actually more a free market and that while you can slip money under a table to grease the right official there, you can do the same here, wherever here is for you. Here though you have no free market, you have a codified system of bribes and kickbacks to have the right to be in business.

Pay the inspector or get shut down, sounds the same as pay the protection racket or get shut down.

Trying to do something that strains the local ordinances, well if you are in China or USA or wherever, then knowing the guy in local government is going to grease that wheel, throwing a few dollars and a good lunch will help more and being their family is best.

Get off the high horse of cultural superiority, we are all humans doing what humans do.

and idiot like you still can't spell

very well said +1

I use my brain to decide what will produce "good" results or "bad" results. Not in a simple narrow focused way mind you, but in a complex and considered way that has been refined based on much thought and observation, and taking into account second and third order effects of actions. Believe it or not, you don't need someone else to tell you how to live to be a decent person. It certainly can help at times, but it's best if you can eventually make it your own. I have found this to be more effective than trying to live by some objective moral code, but it takes a lot of effort and may not be for everyone.


I don't mean there is no reality or truth, just that I don't believe in a preexisting "right" and "wrong" external to and independent from our physical reality. That is why I disagee with the person who said "it's wrong because it's wrong". That judgement must be justified and explained, based on some criteria, not just stated to be inherently and eternally true. This criteria will (unless religious) inevitably depend on some property of our physical existence.

For instance, (almost) all humans have a strong desire not to be killed or allow their loved ones to be killed, and even have empathy for others in general - therefore killing is "wrong" except in certain circumstances (to avoid more killing for instance). Those who do kill without just cause will likely suffer consequences from society. These are the same reasons I believe killing is "wrong", just not in the objectively moral sense. It just has terrible consequences all around, and I think there are almost always better options.

Right and wrong are "emergent" properties of our existence, that is they are a result of the particular physical makeup of our world. I suppose if an entire population didn't feel any emotionally connection to others or care whether we died, then murder wouldn't be "wrong" for them. But the rest of us sure as hell would impose our morality on them, and they would either comply, live separately, or kill or be killed.

Some amazingly blinkered comments here based on a perception of China which is outdated. The country is trying very hard to escape from its "copying" culture. Anyone who is in the business of exporting from China will know this. As expected the government in China have taken swift action to resolve this specific situation.

The entire look of the store is Apple's trademark. Not to mention the Apple logo and the Apple name (as applied to computers). And the Apple trademark IS registered in China:
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...emark-suit.ars

So stop pretending you know something when you clearly don't.


Arrogance? Sorry, but you are the one who is being arrogant - AND ignorant. I have about 2 decades of experience doing business in China involving products covered by trademark and patents. What is YOUR experience?

So you're saying they only offered e-mailed receipts that were never e-mailed? Them offering only digital versions is the only way I can see people having any right to complain.


Particularly when it's wrong, yeah.

No, they haven't. They only closed the ones who aren't paying business taxes. The ones who are registered with the government are still in operation.

I do business in China. LOTS of business. And while the situation is improving slightly, it has a LONG, LONG, LONG way to go before intellectual property will be valued there enough for me to trust anything important to the country.

Capitalism in China is in the Wild Wild West (East?) stage. Somewhat similar to where we were in the late 19th Century. Robber barons everywhere. I wonder if the current state of government there will permit the appearance of a Teddy Roosevelt type to come in and clean house.

The yuan has been allowed a very slight amount of "float", but there is no way they will allow the market to set the value of their currency AND you make an excellent point about US currency manipulation. Yes, the US has been sinking to new depths under the current and previous administration.

Teddy Roosevelt in China would be executed before he could make his first speech.

Really. Has Apple registered this 'entire look' trademark in China?


That's not what we're talking about.


The only person who regularly and endlessly boasts about his IP prowess is you (see, e.g., below).


Go back to your original mindless and snarky post (where you challenged me to show you a 13th cent. trademark for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics, for heaven's sake!): That wasn't ignorant?!)

Your "experience in doing business in China"? Assuming what you say is true - there is no reason that I should necessarily believe some anonymous poster on the internet - I guess you must have lots of experience doing business in the middle ages too? Otherwise, what was the point of your silly challenge (that started this sub-thread)?

In China, as in the U.S., you don't need to register a trademark for it to be valid. You (generally) need to register it before you can sue someone, but the trademark is valid as soon as you create it.

Face it, you were wrong.


Of course it is. You said: "Show me a valid piece of IP in China for Apple's store design."

The Apple logo and Apple name are valid IP and are part of the store design. I provided evidence that they are registered and enforceable in China. The fact that these fake stores use the Apple logo and Apple name is sufficient to show that they're infringing Apple's IP.

You were wrong. Again.


The difference, of course, is that I have documented my statements and have a demonstrated knowledge of the subject while you keep spewing nonsense that is almost never correct - while PRETENDING that you know something. You were wrong.


Only because you (or someone else - I'm not going to go back and look it up) said that Western countries should be paying royalties for those inventions. That was a stupid statement and I simply pointed out how stupid it was.

But, then, you seem to surround yourself with stupid and ignorant statements.


Are you an idiot or just playing one on the Internet?

I've demonstrated knowledge of China's practices - which supports my claim that I know what I'm talking about. I never claimed to have done business in the middle ages. I simply pointed out that there is no current patent for gunpowder, paper, or ceramics (at least, not their original middle ages form).

I guess the difference is far too difficult for you to comprehend.

And the point of my 'silly challenge' was that you or one of the other resident idiots suggested that we should be paying royalties for gunpowder, paper, and ceramics and I was simply showing how stupid that argument was.

The only things you're proving are that you: (i) lack a sense of humor (the reference to 13th cent etc), (ii) you're great at lots of cheap name-calling on the internet (see above), and (iii) you are quite an arrogant person!

Chill, man.

I see no need to descend to your level.

That's a rather roundabout way to say that everything you posted has been proven wrong.

You cheated and used facts!

Hmmm.... what exactly is 'wrong' or not factual about the fact that: (i) the Chinese invented gunpowder, paper, and ceramics? (ii) that it was brought over to the West from China?

Nothing - and no one said otherwise.

What I objected to was the silly complaint that the west isn't paying royalties on those inventions.

But since your knowledge of intellectual property law is obviously so poor, I guess you don't understand why your proposal is ludicrous.

If you can't understand a tongue-in-cheek reference in a post, that's perfectly understandable.

What's not is your ill-tempered tirade.

But hey, it's certainly your wont.

Btw, thanks for admitting that "everything" I "posted" was not "proven wrong" (per your exaggerated prior post).

Yes but he had you on all the trademark/trade dress issues, which was the bit that wasn't tongue in cheek.

So what?

So we western reductionist thinkers tend to consider him being right and you being wrong as evidence that he won the argument - moreover your attempt to recast the discussion into whether or not he is angry would appear to be a rather thin attempt to misdirect.

A friend of mine used to refer to this as the 'Look! Over there! A badger!' fallacy.

rotflmao.

thats incredible, I did not know that, why don't they get those old non-electronic version?

Sigh.

For all of you talking about "receipt" referred to in this story, you need to understand what the meaning of "receipt" is in China. In China, "receipt" is not the slip of paper that shows we purchased a certain product on certain date at certain price, but rather it's a slip of paper that the retailer has to purchase from Chinese equivalent of IRS as a form of sales tax payment. If the seller can wiggle out of giving you the receipt, he can buy less of them, and thus pay less tax. Now you can understand why the seller needs to be badgered to produce them.

The reason for the buyer to demand them is about the same as buyers have here in the state. If you don't have it, you can't get reimbursement for the purchase.

Whatever dude - ask Faux, BUSH and the Tea Party about CORRUPT - anyway Apple doesn't seem to be coming out with lawyers ablazing - they have China's industry by the balls they could threaten to pull out but they seem oddly silent.