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Hans Blix is a Liar - Page 2

post #41 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>And yes, I think Bush is guided by God. The Left will mock this and say it is dishonest. One thing I believe about Bush is that he wants this for what he considers to be the right reasons. You (and many others) may disagree with those reasons, but I'm sure he is steadfast in his beliefs.

Don't say "God told him to attack Iraq"...that's not what he said...it is a mischaracterization. He said he prays for guidance, wisdom and strength, and that he feels he is on the right course.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Two things could be happening when Bush announces he is "praying for guidance"

1. He is pandering to the constituency that would buy this revolting piece of crap and its implied attitudes:




or worse yet:
2. He actually thinks with this kind of sentiment

SDW, I know you probably have allready ordered one of these Hunh?!?!

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #42 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
And yes, I think Bush is guided by God. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Reason enough to keep him from making any decisions for the US.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #43 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>

Reason enough to keep him from making any decisions for the US.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Bigot
post #44 of 161
[quote]And yes, I think Bush is guided by God. The Left will mock this and say it is dishonest. One thing I believe about Bush is that he wants this for what he considers to be the right reasons. You (and many others) may disagree with those reasons, but I'm sure he is steadfast in his beliefs. Don't say "God told him to attack Iraq"...that's not what he said...it is a mischaracterization. He said he prays for guidance, wisdom and strength, and that he feels he is on the right course. <hr></blockquote>

Oh I know this is going to stir up a bee's nest, but the whole reason we are fighting a WoT is because of what one man thought was his 'message from God'. So please forgive me when I say that I don't think attacking anyone based on a 'message from God' is a good idea. I know Republicans don't like this, but religion has no place in government.
post #45 of 161
Anyone else remember The President Of Love talking about God helping him through his blowjob scandal? Lay off the man's religion you hypocritical bigots.

Look at the bottom of <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/25/sprj.irq.inspections/index.html" target="_blank">this story</a>:
About 40 minutes later, another Iraqi man stopped a U.N. vehicle outside the headquarters, pleading "Save me! Save me!" in Arabic, according to the United Nations.

The man, apparently unarmed, forced his way into the driver's seat of the stopped vehicle. As an Iraqi guard struggled to pull him out, a U.N. inspector watched from the passenger seat.


Nothing about Blix "turning him over" to anyone.

More in-depth <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-569490,00.html" target="_blank">follow-up</a>.

I have always liked Blix and given his reports to the Security Council. But this kind of disturbs me.

He added that Iraqi scientists could find "more elegant ways" of approaching UN inspectors.

That does show a bit of ignorance and cold-heartedness. The guy was saying "save me!" not "i have useful information!"

I wonder if there is any involved party that actually gives a crap about the Iraqi people.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #46 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>

Bigot</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's not my fault there's an official separation of church and state in the Constitution.

Extremist.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #47 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>"Clinton was better than Bush"

"Bush is nomore trustworthy than Saddam"

Oh my. I am just in disbelief when I hear this kind of thinking. The President of the United States is equated with a maniacal dictator who slaughters his own people and has toyed with the international community for years. This is the Left for you.

And, the first statement makes it even worse. You cite Bill Clinton as being more trustworthy than George W. Bush. That's absurd....unbelievably absurd. You are talking about the president that looked the people right in the eye....wagged his finger in their faces, and LIED. He lied under oath. He later admitted it! And you compare him to President Bush? Clinton is perhaps the most dishonest President in the history of this nation. Say what you about the economy and "being at peace" during his administration (also a lie), he was the very definition of "morally corrupt".</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yada,yada,yada! Yes he cheated on his wife and thought he could hide it from the american people ( given that this is a private matter maybe he should have been able to ). But, most importantly he did his job. Which is all that really matters here. If he had been forcing some female assistant in to something or had made unwanted advances this point would have been different. Get it?

One more thing. Men that get that far in life usually have something dirty in the closet. A sad but true fact. If we were to examine Bush's past I'm sure we would find some interesting things. From where I stand he has a lot of potential.

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #48 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>


Bigot</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're one to talk. All one has to do is listen to your constant references to france.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #49 of 161
By groverat,

" Anyone else remember The President Of Love talking about God helping him through his blowjob scandal? Lay off the man's religion you hypocritical bigots. "

I think my answer to SDW has taken care of this point nicely.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #50 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>

It's not my fault there's an official separation of church and state in the Constitution.

Extremist.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ignoramus
post #51 of 161
[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #52 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>

Ignoramus</strong><hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #53 of 161
There is a fascinating article in the recent Harper's (not Bazaar) about a group of radical fundamentalists that call themselves 'the Family' (no ironical relationship to Manson's "Family" intended but definitely an existant irony nonetheless) This group has as a goal, explicitly stated amoung themselves, to take over the world . . . ie: to rule the world.

I say among themselves, because they have as a strategy the notion that they should work "behind the scenes" . . . allthough they do have many politicians in the "Family" and also have very visual Breakfast meetings . . .they keep fundraising on a "personal level" and recruitment is also covert and planning also is covert and . . . what other behind the scenes?

their only Public event is the National Prayer Breakfast
(1990 had teh guest George GH Bush who praised the Organizer Doug coe)

Other things that came to light in the time that this journalist spent among them (they thought his interest in 'Jesus" meant that he was one of them)

1. The organization known as Youth Corps is an unacknowledged outreach program for this "family," a way where they can send out TENTACLES to get recruits and etc without it visibly stated that that is the purpose of the organization

2. They take inspiration from such leaders as Hitler and Lenin and the Mafia, and invoke them often in council like discussion, they take from these leaders in that these 'Leaders' represent the ability to form a "Covanant" with the people under them . . a covanant that they emulate within 'The Family'

3. Political members of this group include both Dems and Repubs: Don Nickles (R, Oky) Charles Grassely (R, Iowah), John Ensign (R, Nev) Pete Dominici (R NM), James Inhoe (R, Oky_ Bill Nelson (D, Florida), Conrad Burns (R, Mont) and reps: Jim DeMint (R, SC) Fank Wolf (R Va) Joseph Pitts (R, PA) Zach Wamp (R TN) and Bart Stupach (D, Mich)

4. Guises under which the "Family" have operated include: National Commitee for Christian Leadership, National Leadership Council, Fellowship House, Fellowship Foundation. National Fellowship Council, The International Foundation

5. They are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC, their leadership, David Coe and his father Doug Coe and assorted others, express that they feel that Democracy is a sign of Ungodly pride --which means that they see it as wicked

6. They feel that the Covanant between God and the Jews was broken long ago and feel that the relationship been themselves (the core members) and God is the 'new covanant. In other words they feel Jews are wicked and that they themselves are the "Chosen People"

7. They have been involved with numerous historical situations, some of them publicly, and some not so publicly . . . some of them beneficial to all parties (the public ones) such as brokering some peace in Rawanda, and others a little shady: such as their brockering relationships twixt US and dictators in South America (Brazil's Gen Costa E Silva, Salvador's Carlos Eugenios Vides Casanva--convicted by Florida of teh torture of thousands and, Gen G. A. Martinez of Honduras- linked directly to Death Squads) others as well.

8. The Family is organized in the same fashion as Gramsci's communist ideal Guerilla army and also the Islamic Terrorist . . .in other words they have an organizational structure of a hierarchy of seperate cells, each where the members know abouut each member of the cell only except for those above.
At one breakfast in 1965 Franco's Spain Vereide boasted "there are secret cells such as the American Embssy [and] the Standard Oil office [that allow us] to move practically everywhere."

9. They have no qualms about the use of worldy power, in act they respect force and power (legions and principalities?!?!) as means for their ends . . .if not their ends

10. They have much worldly power and lots and lots of money.

12. The differences between this organization and an Islamist organization are negligeable:

One prays to Allah , the Other to Christ,
They both want world domination and use force to achieve those ends (the Family uses networking covertly perhaps a little better)
Both strive to be 'invisible' to the public and yet use 'public figures as a means of extendng their power.
Both utilize a structure of cells, similar to the mafia and Communist guerilla groups
Both disregard the Jews as false and even as wicked (though that is not the expressed position, the fact that The Family sees the Covanant as broken by the Jews amounts to the same thing)
They both want Global Domination
They both see themselves as "the Lord's Revolutionaries"
They both think Democracy is "Ungodly" --therefor as wicked.

.

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #54 of 161
What the hell are you talking about?

I have 0 (zero) patience for elaborate conspiracy theories.

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
post #55 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>What the hell are you talking about?

I have 0 (zero) patience for elaborate conspiracy theories.

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Except this is not an elaborate conspiracy theory, it is a well known group tht was once very visual and is now expressly covert . . expressly behind the scenes

If you have no patience, then that's your problem it doesn't make this group and its goals and methods any less real.

They are not like the "trilateral Commission" which is speculation, this group is hardly covert at all . . . merely quiet: their assets are in plain sight and their membership (most at least) is not hard to devine . . . hell, the leader is Doug Coe . . . that is no mystery . .

what is a mystery is to what extent they have real power and with whom in power do they regularly consult


the other reason that I posted this is because they are "Christians" but their expressed methods and ideas are very much like radical Islamisists.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #56 of 161
Here are some links from Christian organizations:

<a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/004/7.26.html" target="_blank">http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/004/7.26.html</a>

and here is the president speaking at one of their Prayer Meetings:
<a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/02/20020207-1.html" target="_blank">Here</a>

\\Not such a conspiracy . . . or rather, not so hidden as the Coes would probably like
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #57 of 161
Originally posted by SDW2001:

[quote] And yes, [I think Bush is guided by God.<hr></blockquote>

Here are some thoughts by others on *that* subject:

<a href="http://www.lewrockwell.com/tucker/tucker29.html" target="_blank">http://www.lewrockwell.com/tucker/tucker29.html</a>
(Lew Rockwell's site is a conservative/libertarian forum btw).

Some relevant articles (conservative and liberal links):

<a href="http://www.amconmag.com/01_13_03/geyer7.html" target="_blank">http://www.amconmag.com/01_13_03/geyer7.html</a>

<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/hill01042003.html" target="_blank">http://www.counterpunch.org/hill01042003.html</a>

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8803-2003Jan31.html" target="_blank">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8803-2003Jan31.html</a>

<a href="http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5489" target="_blank">http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5489</a>
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #58 of 161
I 'll hate to be at the place of Hans Blix. What a horrible job he get. Whatever he said he will be criticized, because there is two camps in UN waiting to listen what they expect.
post #59 of 161
What can I say... Many of you are beyond me as to why you have to rip Bush because of his faith.

You that do are deceived and yes I really believe that.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #60 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>What can I say... Many of you are beyond me as to why you have to rip Bush because of his faith.

You that do are deceived and yes I really believe that.

Fellowship</strong><hr></blockquote>

ooooooooohhhhhhh!
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #61 of 161
Belief in god and religion are two very different things. One was made up by guess who?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #62 of 161
Thanks for posting immediately after what can be dismissed as a "conspiracy theory" [to SJO] and thereby helping with the dismissal

but seriously, some good links there:
I like this quote [quote] The purpose of the prayer in this case is to seek guidance from God directly, in whatever form in which it may be given. God has a will for your life, and it is your job to discover it through direct, one-on-one communication.

Because God doesn't actually talk in direct words as he does in the Bible, one must look for signs or find a feeling of some sort to discover the messages God is trying send. It is hardly surprising that many people who pray this way come away with messages from God that accord remarkably with what they want to do in any case. The difference is that the evangelical often walks with the conviction that his own subjective impressions and choices have been blessed by God Almighty. It's hard to argue with that. <hr></blockquote>


Now it isn't faith that makes me upset it is the kind of faith that has in it the discounting of critical thought (fundamentalism disregards the whole notion of differnt interpretations of textuality) and also which carries with it the arrogance of the "true Believer"

a perspective that discounts critical introspection before it can even occure, because it is thought that this introspection is "deception"
it is arrogant and believes that it can do no wrong.

it also, as the first article makes clear, has nothing to do with Christianity outside of the United States or historically . . . It is a particularly American kind of absolutist arrogant religion that believes that the "saved" can do no wrong because they are 'saved'

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #63 of 161
Perhaps I misunderstood. I tought your conspiracy theory is that Bush and a group of elite evangelical Christian leaders were out to rule the world. This is not what you are saying?

Hm, perhaps I should add not that I doubt there are freak Christian wierdos like this, rather that these people play the US government like a violin, and that we are all pawns to their vast conspiracy. What do they call themselves, the elders of Zion? I mean, I find the idea that these few have total power over my and your life to be laughable to say the least. These people do not represent the people of the US, they do not set our agenda and we are not pawns in their game. I'm not denying their existence, I denying their influence. God, why the hell do people want to place themselves as victims and pawns and then just bitch and moan about it? If you don't like it, do something about it. What crap. You have a vote.

Oops, there I go again.

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
post #64 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>Perhaps I misunderstood. I tought your conspiracy theory is that Bush and a group of elite evangelical Christian leaders were out to rule the world. This is not what you are saying?</strong><hr></blockquote>no, what I posted is about a group of evangelicas called the Family who ARE expressly in favor of world domination by them and their people

they have enormous political power, groups of politicians take part in their annual Prayer Breakfast

To what extent that means that these politicians share their ideology is not exactly clear

but it does seem that many do share it

AND

yes that ideaology IS in many many ways EXACTLY like that of ISLAMISTS
except the Family viels its hatred . . . though it still hates it just calls those against its ways 'wicked' and 'deceived'.

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #65 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>I have always liked Blix and given his reports to the Security Council. But this kind of disturbs me.

He added that Iraqi scientists could find "more elegant ways" of approaching UN inspectors.

That does show a bit of ignorance and cold-heartedness. The guy was saying "save me!" not "i have useful information!".</strong><hr></blockquote>

Having read the above in context, I don't think this was meant in some cold-hearted "Well, this peon should have approached me more elegantly" kind of way. I get the impression Blix was merely saying that is was unlikely that the man was an Iraqi scientist, because if he had been a scientist, he would have had better avenues for approaching the inspectors, or getting a message to them, than than running screaming into a car.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #66 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>Perhaps I misunderstood. I tought your conspiracy theory is that Bush and a group of elite evangelical Christian leaders were out to rule the world. This is not what you are saying?

Hm, perhaps I should add not that I doubt there are freak Christian wierdos like this, rather that these people play the US government like a violin, and that we are all pawns to their vast conspiracy. What do they call themselves, the elders of Zion? I mean, I find the idea that these few have total power over my and your life to be laughable to say the least. These people do not represent the people of the US, they do not set our agenda and we are not pawns in their game. I'm not denying their existence, I denying their influence. God, why the hell do people want to place themselves as victims and pawns and then just bitch and moan about it? If you don't like it, do something about it. What crap. You have a vote.

Oops, there I go again.

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes, seriously, ooops

I never said I was a victim. I am not saying that these people are pulling all the strings.

Its not anything like the "elders of Zion" but you probably didn't read a damn word you probably saw that I was pointing out this group, saying that they do in fact wield power, and that, yes their goal is to remain "behind the scenes" (from their own mouths) and you assumed this is some out-to-lunch wacko theory

If you think this is wacko you better think again, these people are real and not very hidden, and yes, they want to control you . . . best way to stop that from happening is to show what their real motivations are: such as in the Youth Corps which seems all above boards but is a vehicle for signing people onto the 'Christian Revolution'

just look a little, it doesn't take much, for instance that post from a well respected Christian web site that calls the "Family" a group that wants to remain covert . . . . are they being conspiracists or are they merely saying what is plainly known . . . .they want to avoid Press, and scrutiny, and have a strategy to do so that entails structuring their organization in cells

I wouldn't deny their influence when politicians are crawling over each other to talk at their National Prayer Breakfast . . . like Bush did recently . . .

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #67 of 161
I would cut Blix a break for saying something perhaps ineloquently in a foreign tongue.
post #68 of 161
Ok, I deserve a good beating for that. My sincere apologies.

I was about to re-revise my message to say that those links are eexactly the srt of thing we are fighting in fundamental Islam. We can't let this be a religious war. At least I don't consider a war againsr Islam, just intolerent kooks like Bin Laden and so forth. Anyhoo, this has gotten entire off tiopic. Again, my apologies.
post #69 of 161
So far I've heard conspiracy theories about Jews wanting to rule the world, Islam wanting to rule the world, and Christians wanting to rule the world. We're in for one hell of a fight folks.
post #70 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>Two things could be happening when Bush announces he is "praying for guidance"

1. He is pandering to the constituency that would buy this revolting piece of crap and its implied attitudes:




or worse yet:
2. He actually thinks with this kind of sentiment</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh. Oh. I'm in pain.

I figured the above image just had to be a parody. Just had to be. I thought to myself "Let's follow the link for this image, and see what other funny satirical stuff might be found."

But... it's... it's not satire! It's real! That image is apparently meant for the consumption of individuals who actually are capable of digesting such treacly overwrought sentimentality, who identify with and are inspired by this simultaneously naive and zealous vision of spirituality.

We live in a scary world.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #71 of 161
It looked like conspiracy jibberish to me to, and I was thinking: "oh god, Pfflam must have lost it and gone completely bonkers", for a while there.

Until I re-read it and the following posts.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #72 of 161
Forget the "Bush = armageddonist" theory for a bit, which is where some people on all sides of the political fence feel that Bush is spiritually situated.

I just don't get this "Bush being a Christian" thing at all. Judging by the policies of his administration, the following qualities are apparent: elitism, greed, materialism, privilege, duplicity, arrogance, bribery, lust for power etc etc.

Christianity, at least the variety as taught by Jesus Christ, is the polar opposite of where the Bush policies stand. I'm not a practising Christian, but I find it hard to acknowledge that Christianity in the 21st century is a totally different deal from the values Jesus taught some 2000 years back. Why does Bush have to hide his real intent behind some phoney "Christian" front to make his hardline ideas look compassionate?
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #73 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Forget the "Bush = armageddonist" theory for a bit, which is where some people on all sides of the political fence feel that Bush is spiritually situated.

I just don't get this "Bush being a Christian" thing at all. Judging by the policies of his administration, the following qualities are apparent: elitism, greed, materialism, privilege, duplicity, arrogance, bribery, lust for power etc etc.

Christianity, at least the variety as taught by Jesus Christ, is the polar opposite of where the Bush policies stand. I'm not a practising Christian, but I find it hard to acknowledge that Christianity in the 21st century is a totally different deal from the values Jesus taught some 2000 years back. Why does Bush have to hide his real intent behind some phoney "Christian" front to make his hardline ideas look compassionate?</strong><hr></blockquote>Sounds like Bush bashing and will therfore be dismissed by Bush-lovers . . .

but,If you look at the group that i discussed they are exactly that, an elitist, power hungry group of christians that hold no merit in the quote that 'a rich man has a harder time entering heaven than a camel does passing through the eye of a needle.

let me repeat that last quote so that it might sink in to some of these so called christians:
"it is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven"

. . . . gosh darnit that sounds like a poverty pimpin Liberal
who said that must be wicked!!!!

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #74 of 161
Thread Starter 
SJO:

[quote] I just don't get this "Bush being a Christian" thing at all. <hr></blockquote>

That's apparent.
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #75 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong><a href="http://www.amconmag.com/01_13_03/geyer7.html" target="_blank">http://www.amconmag.com/01_13_03/geyer7.html</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

At first I was really worried about a couple of things from the above link...

[quote]Originally stated by George W. Bush, talking to Bob Woodward:
<strong>I'm the commander see, I don't need to explain I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And further...

[quote]
<strong>We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm no fan of George W. Bush, and still have more than enough legitimate worries about him without the above to add fuel to the fire. I'd already started to write a "My God! This is our President?" sort of response, but I decided to spend some time researching these supposed quotes, because I had a hard time imagining that statements so apparently inflammatory wouldn't have made the top of the evening news had they been true.

The problem of the first quote appears to be one of missing context:

[quote]From <a href="http://cbsnewyork.com/rooney/sixtyminutes_story_321200143.html" target="_blank">http://cbsnewyork.com/rooney/sixtyminutes_story_321200143.html</A> :
<strong>Woodward says the president told him that when he chairs a meeting he often tries to be provocative. When Woodward asked him if he tells his staff that he is purposely being provocative, Mr. Bush answered: "Of course not. I am the commander, see?"

President Bush: "I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the President. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."</strong><hr></blockquote>

Still maybe not a wonderful thing to say, but it's merely about how Bush approaches chairing meetings. Not quite so shocking as it sounds out of context.

The second quote appears to be a misattribution (widely spread now!), mentioned in Bob Woodward's "Bush at War", but not something that Bush himself said:

[quote]From <a href="http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14890" target="_blank">http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14890</A> :
<strong>Woodward remains uncritical of these CIA agents, and of the Pentagon Special Forces units who later join them. He ends the book with a strange image of a group of them creating a 9/11 memorial in the Afghan mountains. One of the Americans vows, "We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation."</strong><hr></blockquote>

If Bush did utter these words, I get the impression that he did so while he himself was quoting from this memorial. It's still a little scary if Bush reverently quoted these words as something he too believes, but I'd recommend hunting down the book "Bush at War" before jumping to any conclusions from Nth-hand sources on the net.

There are more than enough reasons to dislike Bush without adding misinformation to the mix.

[Edit: About 9 edits later, I may finally have all the wording fixed and UBB syntax errors cleared up!]

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: shetline ]</p>
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #76 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by alcimedes:
<strong>

got a link for that? i don't recall reading anything about that at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I do recall seeing it on FNC a while ago. Of course, if you don't believe in FNC, then I suppose my bringing it to your attention makes no difference. I'm just saying I did see it on a major TV news station. Take it however you will.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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post #77 of 161
[quote]let me repeat that last quote so that it might sink in to some of these so called christians:
"it is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven"<hr></blockquote>

My own favorite candidate for Teaching of Jesus Most Ignored by Almost All Who Call Themselves Christian:

[quote]<strong>Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them; for then you have no reward from your Father in heaven. So whenever you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be praised by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be done in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one. For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

And whenever you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces so as to show others that they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that your fasting may be seen not by others but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Matthew 6, Sermon on the Mount. I was going to just post the first two lines, but the whole thing is just so great. The world would be such a better place if people would just read those lines and let them sink in a bit.

[/offtopic]

[ 03-09-2003: Message edited by: Towel ]</p>
post #78 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>SJO:



That's apparent.</strong><hr></blockquote>

OK SDW, if you are so knowledgeable about some esoterica of Christianity that I have either missed or don't understand, please explain in simple language the common ground shared by the philosophies of George W. Bush and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I am having huge difficulties reconciling the two positions, which seem 180º apart. I look forward to some enlightenment.
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #79 of 161
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>

OK SDW, if you are so knowledgeable about some esoterica of Christianity that I have either missed or don't understand, please explain in simple language the common ground shared by the philosophies of George W. Bush and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I am having huge difficulties reconciling the two positions, which seem 180º apart. I look forward to some enlightenment.</strong><hr></blockquote>

"So knowledgeable"....well I don't know. But I'll try:

It is a common misconception that Christianity rebukes all violence, even killing. It doesn't. Funny enough, the church I attended today focused, in part, on this topic.

Bush believes that

1) Saddam is a threat.
2) Saddam will not disarm peacefully.
3) Someone must disarm him.

Not everyone agrees. Bush believes he is doing this with the greater good in mind...namely ridding the earth of Saddam. I suppose it is fun for his opponents to spew out the tired "No war for oil" and "Bush wants venegence" lines. He knows people will die. That doesn't make his actions "unholy".

On other issues, Bush is guided by a set of principles (as with the Iraq issue). I'd be interested to know what you think he has done that "goes against Christian teachings".
It seems to me that it is quite convenient for one to attack him on this issue simply because one disagrees with many of his positions. It is further disingenous for one to make the charge when one ADMITS she isn't a Christian.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #80 of 161
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
It is a common misconception that Christianity rebukes all violence, even killing. It doesn't. <strong>Funny enough, the church I attended today focused, in part, on this topic. .</strong><hr></blockquote>
Somehow that does not surprise me at all.





.


.

So many Christians so few Christians
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
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