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Office for Mac update to add versions, auto-save, full-screen for Lion - Page 2

post #41 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErosLWS View Post

Office 2011 is the gold standard for office suites, it makes iWork look like Office '97 (except that Excel '97 had more features than Numbers, but that's another issue). Versions, auto-save, and full-screen are just a nice touch to an already impressive product.

And how is the weather in Redmond today?

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post #42 of 66
How about fixing the shitty performance and Outlooks constant crashing on startup?

I don't know what versions of Office 2011 MS gave to reviewers when it was released, but it's certainly not the same POS software I've tried to run (and subsequently gave up on). Vista was a better software release than this shitshow.
post #43 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by tullius View Post

Excel is the definitive spreadsheet program. There is no real substitute for it. Score it 1-0, MS Office.

Word is the standard "max feature" word processing program, but only really necessary for unusually complex or specialized documents. For 95 percent of word processing, Pages is quicker, easier, and more more intuitive. Score it .75 iWork, .25 Office.

Keynote owns Powerpoint. Powerpoint has (perhaps) better integration with Excel, so it's not a shut out. Score it .75 iWork, .25 Office.

Price: iWork 1, Office 0.

Final Score: iWork 2.5, Office 1.5.

This is a Mac-only comparison, obviously.

I bet having an active directory /windows office environment does not factor into your scores.

Office 2011 makes it a lot easier to get a mac into a windows domain environment. Which for businesses would add one full point in your review scores.
post #44 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErosLWS View Post

Not for Excel or Word, and Keynote presentations look like crap when converted to PPT. Just saying.

That largely depends on what you are using those for now doesn't it? The VAST majority of average users will not in their lifetime(for example) create a pivot chart in Excel. OpenOffice, GoogleDocs, LibreOffice all offer pivot chart/table functions anyway. Programming functionality in Excel is merely bastardized programming and I used to do a lot of that - so no sale there to the average consumer.

Microsoft Office was written for and is used in dedicated office settings and is a powerful tool for that - but just like a tractor, what makes it a powerful tool for some makes it a lousy vehicle for others. Apple is focussed on the consumer market, and it's software is designed for that purpose. Office was and will remain a business package - and those of you who loudly proclaim it high functionality and power miss the point entirely.

Keynote - obviously you don't have a lot of cross-platform experience ErosLWS, or you at least would know that you don't do a full build of a presentation in Keynote (or conversely PowerPoint) and try to migrate to the other presenter. The animation controls and engines are not compatible. You build your CONTENT in one and then move it to the other for final treatment. Geeez already!

Keynote is, for all of my uses much better than PowerPoint, although Powerpoint doesn't necessarily suck. I get roundly much better visuality and handling in Keynote than Powerpoint, and while my fellow presenters are laboring away at trying to sweeten up a tedious PP present, I'm done, looking very cool and devilering an order of magnitude better quality show for my info than they are. All of my executive presents are done in Keynote, and my fellow presenters loathe following my present with the standard PP. Moreover I have flexibility around delivery as well, so I can setup a couple of different stacks depending on what's available at the venue for driving it. If I'm stuck with a hardwired lappy, I carry a Quicktime present of it with the plugin on a thumbdrive, or most usually just plug in my iPhone or iPad to deliver.

If Microsoft ever figured out (however unlikely that would be) how to streamline Office for iDevices - that would of course be huge. But in the meantime, the vast majority of consumers fail to use 70-80% of the capability of the Office Suite. Why force them to drive tractors for their daily commute?
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post #45 of 66
M$ is *always* on the leading edge -- CLEARLY they have been working on this update since the first 10.7 beta! :roll eyes:

What ever happened to MS Project for Mac?! Bring it back.
post #46 of 66
The new MS Office is easily the worst update I've ever seen of their already horrendous product. If I didn't need it for business integration, I'd steer clear of it like poison.

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post #47 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by cylack View Post

Yet they couldn't bother to make the apps 64 bit.

If your app is an island and relies on no other features, older OS versions, etc., then it's easy. If your app relies on older file formats, video formats, older operating system versions, etc. then it's difficult or impossible.

Don't act like it's as simple as checking a box in XCode.
post #48 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post

I bet having an active directory /windows office environment does not factor into your scores.

Office 2011 makes it a lot easier to get a mac into a windows domain environment. Which for businesses would add one full point in your review scores.

Fair point.
post #49 of 66
I'm glad the update will be free. I love Pages for the templates and styles, but Word has better image handling and I am one of the biggest Ribbon fans out there.
post #50 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecklesstechguy View Post

And how is the weather in Redmond today?


It's actually sunny here today, for once.
post #51 of 66
"I know your next question will be 'when?', and unfortunately I can't answer that -- but it's likely measured in months not days -- just to set expectations," the post reads.

Another wait and see, vaporware, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that from MajorCrap. And while they're at it why not fix Office 2008, which I understand will run under Lion, but not install.

Oh yeah, that way it'd cut into the revenue stream of the sinking ship MajorCrap. Forcing folks to shell out money for bloatware Office 2011.
post #52 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErosLWS View Post

Office 2011 is the gold standard for office suites, it makes iWork look like Office '97 (except that Excel '97 had more features than Numbers, but that's another issue). Versions, auto-save, and full-screen are just a nice touch to an already impressive product.

Gold standard? More like fools gold (aka iron pyrite).
post #53 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

M$ is *always* on the leading edge -- CLEARLY they have been working on this update since the first 10.7 beta! :roll eyes:

What ever happened to MS Project for Mac?! Bring it back.

MS on the (leading) edge? Let's all get behind them and push...
post #54 of 66
Upgrade and get the "ribbon" interface like windows POS**t....

Uh, no thanks. I'll stick with the 2008 version.
post #55 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Worst, lamest, most repeated excuse ever. The idea that if your boss uses crap windows and crap Office, that you have to as well.

iWork can easily be used to create Windows-compatible documents. This has been the case for years.

You obviously don't have an office job. If you did, you'd know that these two apps have never been fully compatible, and there will always be something wrong with the document formatting when you open in each app. I'm not against iWorks, but in the business world where the majority still use Microsoft Office, you can't afford to waste time bugging around with silly things like this. You need a reliable software that you can trust, period.
post #56 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Hmm, I've never encountered this error. Maybe you can tell me how to duplicate it so I can see it.

Also, MS better not take away the save as function. I think Lion's autosave shit is terrible.

I'm going by memory, as it's been a while since I've encountered this bug.

If you have a file with a lot of embedded objects (equations, figures, etc.), sometimes they get corrupted and trigger the bug. You have to cut and paste the entire file into a new, blank document and save it that way. Another option was to save, close, and re-open the file every 30-45 minutes or so.

Here's a MacRumors post that describes it.

It is very aggravating. I risked a lot of rework on my MS thesis when the file would get borked and I would have to copy it all into a new blank document and check for changed formatting. In the end, I used NeoOffice to write my thesis, and it worked marvelously.
post #57 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailorPaul View Post

Upgrade and get the "ribbon" interface like windows POS**t....

Uh, no thanks. I'll stick with the 2008 version.

You do know you can turn off the ribbon in Office 2011? That it's completely optional?

Or that Office 2010 (for Windows) users don't get that choice.

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post #58 of 66
Great post, as always, nagromme. To many switchers insist that the green "zoom" button should be "maximize". Unfortunately, what may make sense on a 13" laptop screen can be ludicrous on a 30" monitor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

The green button (and the classic Mac OS button that came before it) was never “full screen,” although Windows users often expected that. It was always a shortcut for a “ recommended size,” which might in fact be smaller. It resizes the window to fit the content. As a result, the app itself has to make that judgement—and some do it better than others, making the button only rarely useful. I agree with you on that. (I like it in certain apps, mainly graphics programs where the best window size is a no-brainer for the app to figure out.) It wouldn’t have killed me if they just eliminated the green button, or changed it to be the new full-screen function (although some would have howled at the change). Instead, they kept it and added the full-screen button.

The full-screen button does what Maximize has done (and I’ve always liked) in Windows for ages, but it goes a step further in 3 ways: 1) it hides the Dock/taskbar except when touched, 2) it hides the menu bar except when touched, and 3) it lets the app reconfigure to a view/UI optimized specifically for full-screen, if the developer wishes to go that far. So it’s “even more full-screen” than Windows Maximize. Plus you have the new swipe gestures and Mission Control, allowing multiple full-screen apps at once in a way that Windows doesn’t do nearly as well. In Windows, you’re probably going to mazimize just one app at a time. It’s easier not to limit yourself in Lion!

And I really like it. Not for every app in every case, but there are times when I want to either cut the clutter or see the absolute largest amount of content, and this new button does just what I want.

Two criticisms of it:

1. They’ve made the dock reluctant to pop back when touched. Try it vs. the menu bar and you’ll see. I can understand the dock could ptentially be really annoying, getting in the way when not wanted, but I prefer a simpler solution: put it on the left, away from scrollbars. And let it trigger just as easily as the menu. In the meantime, though, Mission Control does reduce reliance on the Dock.

2. Better multiple-monitor support is needed for full-screen apps. (I’m sure that’s coming.) I say, let each app have one screen, let other screens stay independent, and for Mission Control, just show the full-screen apps for THAT screen on the top of each one. I’m sure there are instances when it can’t be that simple, but it’s a start.

This. ^^^^^^^^^^^^

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post #59 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Its hilarious to me the way the same discussion goes on and on about Office vs. iWork, yet not one person ever mentions WHY they like one over the other.

I like iWork because it does everything I need it to, and it doesn't suck like Office does. Oh, and Apple actually pays attention to what customers want. Oh, and Apple does things like iCloud to link documents from these apps across devices, instantly.

Can Office do that? Yep, but it will be months or years before they get it together. No patience for that.

It is hilarious that you do exactly the same.

Because "and it doesn't suck like Office does" is hardly an argument.

MS Office can save to Web (using Microsoft SkyDrive which gives you free 25GB of web storage), save to SharePoint or post to Blog. SkyDrive is not perfect but it is absolutely free and being constantly developed.
post #60 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Hmm, I've never encountered this error. Maybe you can tell me how to duplicate it so I can see it.

Also, MS better not take away the save as function. I think Lion's autosave shit is terrible.

I've found this error recently while working with mathtype, and I have to save the document as a .docx --originally a .doc document, almost 2 Mb. Office Mac 2011, 10.6.8.

BTW, I agree about the autosave feature in Lion. That's one thing --among others-- that keep me from upgrade.

Cheers
post #61 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

The new MS Office is easily the worst update I've ever seen of their already horrendous product. If I didn't need it for business integration, I'd steer clear of it like poison.

My thoughts exactly. I really love iWork, but sadly a lot of people got Word. Recently I've created a +350 pages document in Pages 09 and all the "oblique" attributes changed to a new different font when I exported it to Word to properly deliver to the publisher house. And it was a pretty popular font, I think: Courier New.

Anyway, I use Pages whenever I can.

Cheers
post #62 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by capoeira4u View Post

You obviously don't have an office job. If you did, you'd know that these two apps have never been fully compatible, and there will always be something wrong with the document formatting when you open in each app. I'm not against iWorks, but in the business world where the majority still use Microsoft Office, you can't afford to waste time bugging around with silly things like this. You need a reliable software that you can trust, period.

Not only that, but iWorks shits up its Word document by using its own Style names, as if to say 'Look at me, I did this shitty document on a Mac'. So you get back to the Office and you get to re apply all the styles so they match the corporate standard.

Lovely.
post #63 of 66
I have followed this thread with great amusement. Which is best Pages of MS Word is the wrong question, and so never can be answered. Best for whom? It is true the Word has features that most people don't needunless you do, in which case they are essential. At a former job, I made extensive use of forms. Pages does do forms, so for me it was an essential feature. I submitted a number of articles for publication in academic journals. Word allowed me to easily create references, Pages does not. If you do not need these feature, then you don't care. The question is which software best meets your needs as a unique user.

Recently, I have started to use Pages. My reason is that ICloud integration will make it easy to integrate documents on my computer and iPad. For me, this will be useful. If you do not have an iPad, or need to integrate documents that you will not care. Finally, I hate the lack of save as in Pages. One step is now 2. And please, I want to grade papers on my iPad. I would love to have a comments feature. If you do not grade papers, of course this might constitute bloat, but for me a highly desired feature.

Finally, a most interesting question to discuss would be , " What would you like to see in an iWork update?"
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post #64 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Hmm, I've never encountered this error. Maybe you can tell me how to duplicate it so I can see it.

Also, MS better not take away the save as function. I think Lion's autosave shit is terrible.

Which planet have you been these last 10 years ?
I've had that M$oft error a trillion times.
And now Office 2011 has also the infamous file format from Office 2008 not recognized.
A pure joke.
Oh. By the way. Gates is being sued all over the place because of Corbis swindle of photographer' s rights (french agencies catalogs bought back by Gates and their ilk).
post #65 of 66
"Working hard with Apple" to implement the features? Just read the API docs.

But yeah, great to see MS supporting the latest OS features so quickly, they have really improved in that area. I would like to see them selling their apps on the App Store too. Even if they charge more to cover Apple's cut, I would still pay it.
post #66 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Worst, lamest, most repeated excuse ever. The idea that if your boss uses crap windows and crap Office, that you have to as well.

iWork can easily be used to create Windows-compatible documents. This has been the case for years.

As has been described in other posts already, it really depends what you mean by compatible. iWork can indeed export to Office document formats, but the damage done in the process makes it pretty obvious that the files were not created in Office, and it also cannot handle exporting to the now 4-year-old document formats of Office 2007 for Windows....

I went through all this a year ago when I tried to live in iWork for 2 months in an otherwise Windows Office work environment.

Numbers cannot see beyond 65,536 rows and 256 columns in a sheet. It doesn't have compatible gridline view settings for Windows - either printed grey or invisible. It sets any cells outside the working range to Helvetica Neue size 11, and working with the full 65,536x256 displayed brings Numbers to a halt. Even with a lot of customisation you cannot avoid a lot of post work fixing up what Numbers does if you want to even begin talking compatibility with Excel. Another example is infinitely expanding sheet names per save *shudder*.

Pages adjusts font information to not make sense on Windows - what is this 'Calibri Bold' font ><.
Pages export to Word adds a line break after every table in the document - after a few saves this gets very annoying; I can only imagine what a mess the awful versions feature of Lion makes of that, if the iWork autosave works so. Tables of contents and such are just completely different between Pages and Word; it is best not to try to have those in an export. Same with pretty much any 'fields'. Pagination is quite a different beast as well, not only for all the added line breaks I mentioned earlier.

Keynote and PowerPoint are probably the worst pairing, even though Keynote has been around the longest of the iWork apps to, one might think, develop a better export algorithm. From master backgrounds becoming selectable graphics to font incompatibilities to drastic changes in background vs text colour, spacing, etc. there is just no comparison. Of course Keynote also stands the best chance of one being able to work in it exclusively, as often you can get away with just PDFs for preservation/dissemination of presentations ... but compatible with PowerPoint it is not.

Suffice it to say that getting Office 2011 at the end of those 2 months last year was something of a relief - until I managed to crash both Word and Excel just configuring the interfaces, something I was familiar with from 2008, and so much remained unchanged that I was not surprised.

Having worked with the 2011 apps for almost a year now, though, I have to say they have done as good a job as MS seems to be able to on the Mac. Excel is a lot quicker than in 2008, and files can be made almost fully compatible with the Windows equivalents. Graphs in Excel and graphics in general are still major stumbling blocks, but I think that will always be the case.

As for adding the new Lion features, I look forward to seeing how they handle fullscreen apps, the current 'fullscreen' options in Word and Excel are not very convincing. Other than that I would far rather see them properly support quartz sub-pixel rendering instead of their own graphics engine, and other globals like the special characters panel, and OS-level spell check and now the auto-correct and auto-accent abilities too. If they're adding autosave and versioning, I agree they damn well better make it optional - those are the most destructive features I think I've ever seen in an OS, and still an off switch doesn't seem to have been found !
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