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Religious Absurdity Vol 2: "WTC wreckage in the shape of a cross is god's love." - Page 4

post #121 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Because you, somehow, feel your beliefs deserve the respect of others. That they deserve the "respect" of people who have looked at the evidence objectively, and can see that there simply ISN'T any supporting evidence.
You certainly wouldn't expect me to be "respectful" of an adult who adamantly claimed that Unicorns or Invisible Dragons or Zeus were real (and that felt I, and the rest of society, should accommodate their beliefs.) They would (properly) be recommended for psychiatric evaluation. Why is it that YOUR god deserves special consideration?

Why is it that YOU can brush off L. Ron Hubbard as "preposterous nonsense" (I'm not quoting you, but if you believe in J. C. Waterwalker, then you MUST feel that way), but I can't call you out for the same thing?

Never read L Ron Hubbard. Perhaps you have me confused with some other person. I have not called anything preposterous nonsense.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #122 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Never read L Ron Hubbard. Perhaps you have me confused with some other person. I have not called anything preposterous nonsense.

I never said you did... Specifically said I was not quoting you.
I was hoping you would have actually addressed what I did post.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #123 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I never said you did... Specifically said I was not quoting you.
I was hoping you would have actually addressed what I did post.

How about you post something relevant to me? Then I might.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #124 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

How about you post something relevant to me? Then I might.

So anything that questions your belief-without-evidence is irrelevant.
Your faith is beyond question.
But what about all these "other" religions?... why is their faith misplaced, but not yours?
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #125 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

So anything that questions your belief-without-evidence is irrelevant.
Your faith is beyond question.
But what about all these "other" religions?... why is their faith misplaced, but not yours?

Anything that treats the beliefs of a religious person as nothing more than a paranoid delusion of a psychotic person is irrelevant. Treat me with respect or do not expect such in return.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #126 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Anything that treats the beliefs of a religious person as nothing more than a paranoid delusion of a psychotic person is irrelevant. Treat me with respect or do not expect such in return.

Sadly, that's unlikely to happen here. The Anti-God Left runs around screaming that Conservatives are intolerant and narrow-minded. They then demonstrate the virtues of tolerance and open-mindedness by telling us anyone who believes in God is a idiotic, delusional prick who believes in fairytales.
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post #127 of 204
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Anything that treats the beliefs of a religious person as nothing more than a paranoid delusion of a psychotic person is irrelevant. Treat me with respect or do not expect such in return.

You are not your beliefs. Removing the person from the equation, the beliefs are absurd. The problem comes in when the person who holds the absurd beliefs really really really cares about them and gets offended when called out on that absurdity.

Not all beliefs deserve respect. Ridiculous beliefs that have no basis in reality don't deserve respect. If you, the person, is worthy of respect in other aspects of your life--your work, your charity, your hobbies--great. That can be earned without issue. Your religious beliefs don't automatically get respect. Sorry. They are pretty fucking stupid.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #128 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You are not your beliefs. Removing the person from the equation, the beliefs are absurd. The problem comes in when the person who holds the absurd beliefs really really really cares about them and gets offended when called out on that absurdity.

Not all beliefs deserve respect. Ridiculous beliefs that have no basis in reality don't deserve respect. If you, the person, is worthy of respect in other aspects of your life--your work, your charity, your hobbies--great. That can be earned without issue. Your religious beliefs don't automatically get respect. Sorry. They are pretty fucking stupid.

Let me ask you this, BR: Is it "reasonable" that you think 96% of the Earth's population is utterly fucking delusional for believing in God?
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post #129 of 204
Thread Starter 
It doesn't matter what I think. Is there evidence for the multitude of gods that various people believe in? If not, then the beliefs are unfounded and dumb. You are making the logical fallacy called "argumentum ad populum." Fallacy is the operative word there, my friend.

Quote:
In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it; it alleges: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, argument by consensus, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy, and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #130 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

... Is it "reasonable" that you think 96% of the Earth's population is utterly fucking delusional for believing in God?

I know, I'm not BR, but...

It has been my experience, that most of those "96%" don't REALLY believe... not really. The profess belief, and they go through the motions of confession, church on Sundays, praying before meals, (or whatever their particular religion does)... but when you sit down and really talk with them, they tend to not really believe in all the dogma, and will admit that there is, of course, a POSSIBILITY that their god doesn't exist at all.

I'll grant you, that out of 4+ billion people on this planet, my study group has been rather small... possibly statistically irrelevant, but nevertheless, that is my experience.

(Admittedly, every now-and-then I run into someone who really does believe... I have a couple friends like that, and most of the time they seem perfectly normal, other times they are EXTREMELY amusing... kinda like watching a 3-year-old anticipating the arrival of Santa Clause... he knows if you've been good or bad, you know!)


So... even if 96% of the worlds population truly believes... most of them are Hindu... many of them are Muslim... some are Christians...
Now, which group is right?... only one of them can possibly be believing in the "real" god(s)... the others HAVE to be wrong...
So by your reasoning... most of those 96% are admittedly believing in something that is absolutely NOT THE TRUTH !!!
So I'm CERTAINLY being reasonable to think that THEY (all the other, wrong, religions) are delusional... and, considering the lack of evidence, it's likely that the single remaining group is equally delusional (what if one of the other groups is the correct one after all.)
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #131 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I know, I'm not BR, but...

It has been my experience, that most of those "96%" don't REALLY believe... not really. The profess belief, and they go through the motions of confession, church on Sundays, praying before meals, (or whatever their particular religion does)... but when you sit down and really talk with them, they tend to not really believe in all the dogma, and will admit that there is, of course, a POSSIBILITY that their god doesn't exist at all.

I'll grant you, that out of 4+ billion people on this planet, my study group has been rather small... possibly statistically irrelevant, but nevertheless, that is my experience.

(Admittedly, every now-and-then I run into someone who really does believe... I have a couple friends like that, and most of the time they seem perfectly normal, other times they are EXTREMELY amusing... kinda like watching a 3-year-old anticipating the arrival of Santa Clause... he knows if you've been good or bad, you know!)


So... even if 96% of the worlds population truly believes... most of them are Hindu... many of them are Muslim... some are Christians...
Now, which group is right?... only one of them can possibly be believing in the "real" god(s)... the others HAVE to be wrong...
So by your reasoning... most of those 96% are admittedly believing in something that is absolutely NOT THE TRUTH !!!
So I'm CERTAINLY being reasonable to think that THEY (all the other, wrong, religions) are delusional... and, considering the lack of evidence, it's likely that the single remaining group is equally delusional (what if one of the other groups is the correct one after all.)

Why does it even matter to you? By your own admission to you "most of the time they seem perfectly normal, other times they are EXTREMELY amusing..."

Lets cure them of this "delusion" quick before they amuse you again...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #132 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Why does it even matter to you? By your own admission to you "most of the time they seem perfectly normal, other times they are EXTREMELY amusing..."

Lets cure them of this "delusion" quick before they amuse you again...

As individuals, they are amusing. As a group, religions like to play "My god is bigger than your god."... Also known as WAR. (or, more recently, as "terrorism")

I'd also argue that education is hardly synonymous with "cure".
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #133 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

As individuals, they are amusing. As a group, religions like to play "My god is bigger than your god."... Also known as WAR. (or, more recently, as "terrorism")

I'd also argue that education is hardly synonymous with "cure".

No. Delusion is an illness, not an education issue. Mental issue. Unless you are redefining that as well? Your posts are so spiteful you do not even realize it. Or do you?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #134 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

No. Delusion is an illness, not an education issue. Mental issue. Unless you are redefining that as well? Your posts are so spiteful you do not even realize it. Or do you?

No, it isn't. That's not what 'delusion' means.

You can be deluded and not be mentally ill. It simply means 'very comprehensively misled.'
post #135 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I know, I'm not BR, but...

It has been my experience, that most of those "96%" don't REALLY believe... not really.

Look, let's just stop there. You've already made this ridiculous argument. You cannot possibly attest to the actual beliefs of more than that 6 other people you really "know." So stop.
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post #136 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It doesn't matter what I think. Is there evidence for the multitude of gods that various people believe in? If not, then the beliefs are unfounded and dumb. You are making the logical fallacy called "argumentum ad populum." Fallacy is the operative word there, my friend.


It's not like I'm pointing to 10 other people and saying "they agree with me!" We're talking about BILLIONS of people. And we're talking about your supreme arrogance in calling them dumb. You are right. 5.x billion people are wrong. Not only are they wrong, they're stupid. Got it.
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post #137 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No, it isn't. That's not what 'delusion' means.

You can be deluded and not be mentally ill. It simply means 'very comprehensively misled.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

Quote:
A delusion is a false belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, dogma, stupidity, poor memory, illusion, or other effects of perception.

Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or mental illness, although they are not tied to any particular disease and have been found to occur in the context of many pathological states (both physical and mental). However, they are of particular diagnostic importance in psychotic disorders including schizophrenia, paraphrenia, manic episodes of bipolar disorder, and psychotic depression.

The world disagrees with you... Are you deluded?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #138 of 204
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It's not like I'm pointing to 10 other people and saying "they agree with me!" We're talking about BILLIONS of people. And we're talking about your supreme arrogance in calling them dumb. You are right. 5.x billion people are wrong. Not only are they wrong, they're stupid. Got it.

You are again using the logical fallacy "argumentum ad populum." Repeating the same faulty argument doesn't make it more valid.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #139 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Look, let's just stop there. You've already made this ridiculous argument. You cannot possibly attest to the actual beliefs of more than that 6 other people you really "know." So stop.

Ok... Let's say there's a billion Muslims, a billion Hindus and a billion Christians (just to use nice round numbers.)

Which group is correct?
Even if that represented the entire population, and all religions, then by default 2/3 of the population believes in a god(s) that doesn't exist.
So 2/3 of the population IS delusional... It would stand to reason (since there is no supporting evidence) that the remaining 1/3 is quite likely delusional as well, since their beliefs only differ in name and dogma.

So stating that 96% of the population believes in religion means it must be true simply doesn't work. By definition, only one subset of those believers can be right, and the majority MUST be wrong. Your argument could only work if ey all believed in the same god/religion. And even then, without any evidence, one could still argue in favor of mass delusion.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #140 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You are again using the logical fallacy "argumentum ad populum." Repeating the same faulty argument doesn't make it more valid.

Wow. You really can't grasp this, can you? I am not debating the subject of God's existence. I am certainly not claiming that 5.x billion believers equal evidence of God's existence. What I'm noting is your exceptional arrogance in proclaiming that 5.x billion people are stupid and ignorant. You've gone so far as to call their beliefs "a fucking fantasy." Now, you don't have to accept their beliefs, but to think that you are somehow more intelligent and informed than ALL of these people is pretty incredible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Ok... Let's say there's a billion Muslims, a billion Hindus and a billion Christians (just to use nice round numbers.)

Which group is correct?

About what?

Quote:
Even if that represented the entire population, and all religions, then by default 2/3 of the population believes in a god(s) that doesn't exist.

Uh, no. They simply have different beliefs about who and what God is. Christians and Jews believe in the same God, for example...they simply have vastly different views on Jesus himself. Muslims and Christians both believe in God, too.

Quote:

So 2/3 of the population IS delusional... It would stand to reason (since there is no supporting evidence) that the remaining 1/3 is quite likely delusional as well, since their beliefs only differ in name and dogma.

So wait...in one breath you proclaim that the three religions you mention have such vastly different views that only one can be correct. In the next, you claim they only differ in name and dogma. WTF?

Quote:

So stating that 96% of the population believes in religion means it must be true simply doesn't work.

I didn't state that. I said believing you know something 96% of the Earth's population doesn't (and that you're smarter as well) is exceptionally arrogant.

Quote:
By definition, only one subset of those believers can be right, and the majority MUST be wrong.

Again, right about what??

Quote:
Your argument could only work if ey all believed in the same god/religion. And even then, without any evidence, one could still argue in favor of mass delusion.

My argument is that I find BR's aggressive, anti-religious stance pretty amazing. I can understand making the determination that God does not exist based on the available "evidence." Every person must decide for himself what his views are. But to take the unbelievably closed-minded stance that your conclusion is the only possible and respectable one, and that all who disagree are delusional? That's really something.
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post #141 of 204
Thread Starter 
Would someone who believes something without evidence be considered informed? No.

Would someone who believes something without evidence be considered reasonable? No.

Would someone who believes something without evidence be considered rational? No.

When those unfounded beliefs also are central to their identities, yes, it's fair to call much of the world unreasonable, uninformed, and irrational with regard to those specific beliefs.

What's not to get SDW?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #142 of 204
Blind faith - because thinking is hard!
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #143 of 204
Believing something with no supporting evidence whatsoever = gullible fool. (except when a god is involved, then it's OK.)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #144 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Blind faith - because thinking is hard!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Believing something with no supporting evidence whatsoever = gullible fool. (except when a god is involved, then it's OK.)

Ahh, the hits just keep on coming... Bigotry on full, unashamed display.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #145 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

I was going by the two volume Oxford English Dictionary right here on my desk, which has ‘delude’ as “Cause to accept foolishly a false or mistaken belief”, amongst others, with no mention whatsoever of mental illness. Fair enough, though: ‘delusion’ also has a useage related to mental illness, that’s pretty clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

The world disagrees with you... Are you deluded?

Hey, Noah. Well, if you're going to be provocative, you’re the guy who prays to a god for which there’s not a single, tiny iota of evidence.

For which there’s never been a single atom of evidence.

You're the guy who believes things about the origin of the world completely incompatible with the evidence of his own eyes.

You're the guy who started a thread about the End Times based on stuff he read in a book of myths.

You’re an expert on delusion, and I defer to your vast experience on the subject.
post #146 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I was going by the two volume Oxford English Dictionary right here on my desk, which has delude as Cause to accept foolishly a false or mistaken belief, amongst others, with no mention whatsoever of mental illness. Fair enough, though: delusion also has a useage related to mental illness, thats pretty clear.



Hey, Noah. Well, if you're going to be provocative, youre the guy who prays to a god for which theres not a single, tiny iota of evidence.

For which theres never been a single atom of evidence.

You're the guy who believes things about the origin of the world completely incompatible with the evidence of his own eyes.

You're the guy who started a thread about the End Times based on stuff he read in a book of myths.

Youre an expert on delusion, and I defer to your vast experience on the subject.

Got it. Asking a question to make a point of how rediculous the use of the word sounded gives you license to then turn around and attack me directly with the rhetorioc turned up to 10.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #147 of 204
So ... 4 pages in this and several other similar threads...

The religious believers get upset that other people think they are deluded.

But you have yet to show even the tiniest bit of evidence to support these beliefs. How can we NOT think you are deluded?
All we are asking is WHY do you believe there is a god? ... Where is the evidence?

There's lots of evidence that the multitude of stories supporting multitudes of different gods (stories are not evidence) are false (or at the very least, they contain many outright falsehoods)... and I can understand why you say those stories were not accurate portrayals of god/creation, and therefore they don't count... but where is you evidence of it's existence?? On what do you base your belief??

It seems like a fair enough question... If you don't wish to answer it, then perhaps you could explain why it's not fair to ask that question.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #148 of 204
Thread Starter 
Bingo. Well said.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #149 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

So ... 4 pages in this and several other similar threads...

The religious believers get upset that other people think they are deluded.

But you have yet to show even the tiniest bit of evidence to support these beliefs. How can we NOT think you are deluded?
All we are asking is WHY do you believe there is a god? ... Where is the evidence?

There's lots of evidence that the multitude of stories supporting multitudes of different gods (stories are not evidence) are false (or at the very least, they contain many outright falsehoods)... and I can understand why you say those stories were not accurate portrayals of god/creation, and therefore they don't count... but where is you evidence of it's existence?? On what do you base your belief??

It seems like a fair enough question... If you don't wish to answer it, then perhaps you could explain why it's not fair to ask that question.

This has been answered and the answer has been dismissed by yourself and BR summarily. Since you could not touch it, see it or measure it at the time it was answered it was invalid. Does not really matter though whether you believe, does it? However it does not grant you the right to ad hom a person for believing it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #150 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Bingo. Well said.

Not really. It just circles back around and start the conversation over while trying to look like he has never received any answer.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #151 of 204
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Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Not really. It just circles back around and start the conversation over while trying to look like he has never received any answer.

There hasn't been an answer ... you have presented no evidence.

It all boils down to you saying "I believe... just because." ... No REASON has been presented for you to believe other than personal desire, or because someone else told you to ... It is not based on any evidence that would lead you to believe that there is a god.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #152 of 204
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Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

... However it does not grant you the right to ad hom a person for believing it.

If it walks like a duck... and talks like a duck...
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #153 of 204
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Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

There hasn't been an answer ... you have presented no evidence.

It all boils down to you saying "I believe... just because." ... No REASON has been presented for you to believe other than personal desire, or because someone else told you to ... It is not based on any evidence that would lead you to believe that there is a god.

Slight change. No evidence that would lead YOU to believe.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #154 of 204
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Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Slight change. No evidence that would lead YOU to believe.

I've only read the OP and your post in this thread....

I too believe in Jesus, but I also believe in all sorts of things that aren't in the bible.

How do you know what others believe is wrong if all you go by is what you believe?

Isn't this the mystery of life, that we are all made aware of different things?

I can't prove what I know to anyone in the sense of emperical evidence, but I know that Jesus is as real as time itself.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #155 of 204
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Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

So ... 4 pages in this and several other similar threads...

The religious believers get upset that other people think they are deluded.

But you have yet to show even the tiniest bit of evidence to support these beliefs. How can we NOT think you are deluded?
All we are asking is WHY do you believe there is a god? ... Where is the evidence?

There's lots of evidence that the multitude of stories supporting multitudes of different gods (stories are not evidence) are false (or at the very least, they contain many outright falsehoods)... and I can understand why you say those stories were not accurate portrayals of god/creation, and therefore they don't count... but where is you evidence of it's existence?? On what do you base your belief??

It seems like a fair enough question... If you don't wish to answer it, then perhaps you could explain why it's not fair to ask that question.

There's evidence, but it's all hearsay, or coincidence that can be explained through science. All of it.

I have had several extremely religious experiences. There have been a few times in my life, less than I can count on one hand, where my body has been pumped up with so much endorphin that I felt like God was personally communicating with me and telling me how awesome life was. There was one time in particular that was unbelievably miraculous. I hadn't taken any drugs, but there just happened to have been a particular brain chemistry combined with positive changes in my life that made me feel like Superman.

Those people who WANT to believe in God will attribute those kinds of experiences to God, and there's no way you can convince them otherwise.

The other strident defenders of religion perhaps really haven't had religious experiences but claim to have, or have been raised to believe in religion and cannot let it go, or cannot live life without having some sort of explanation for certain things they don't understand. It's often a matter of pride, and winning for them. There are simply people on this Earth who will never concede defeat, and will fight to the end. There's also the community aspect. They are part of a club. A community that makes them feel better about themselves. They won't ever let that go.

So until they start harming others because of their beliefs, we should just understand the psychology behind it, and let them live their life as they see fit. However, when they start harming people, like the Mormons did with Prop 8, and like the Pope does in Africa, and like the church policies do with regard to birth control, and when religion is a part of the decisions of war and politics, we should not hesitate to tell them to shut the fuck up and take a more reasoned, secular view of things.
post #156 of 204
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Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There's evidence, but it's all hearsay, or coincidence that can be explained through science. All of it.

I have had several extremely religious experiences. There have been a few times in my life, less than I can count on one hand, where my body has been pumped up with so much endorphin that I felt like God was personally communicating with me and telling me how awesome life was. There was one time in particular that was unbelievably miraculous. I hadn't taken any drugs, but there just happened to have been a particular brain chemistry combined with positive changes in my life that made me feel like Superman.

Those people who WANT to believe in God will attribute those kinds of experiences to God, and there's no way you can convince them otherwise.

The other strident defenders of religion perhaps really haven't had religious experiences but claim to have, or have been raised to believe in religion and cannot let it go, or cannot live life without having some sort of explanation for certain things they don't understand. It's often a matter of pride, and winning for them. There are simply people on this Earth who will never concede defeat, and will fight to the end. There's also the community aspect. They are part of a club. A community that makes them feel better about themselves. They won't ever let that go.

So until they start harming others because of their beliefs, we should just understand the psychology behind it, and let them live their life as they see fit. However, when they start harming people, like the Mormons did with Prop 8, and like the Pope does in Africa, and like the church policies do with regard to birth control, and when religion is a part of the decisions of war and politics, we should not hesitate to tell them to shut the fuck up and take a secular view of things.

Tonton I think I agree with your posts more often than anyone else here, though that guy who knew people in a bar who were shot, was the sharpest of any PO poster I've read. That said, your point about personal experience, is limited by your own experience. Tell me of a science that brings Jesus directly into someone's life before a horrendous event and then I'll trust your Gods.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #157 of 204
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Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Tonton I think I agree with your posts more often than anyone else here, though that guy who knew people in a bar who were shot, was the sharpest of any PO poster I've read. That said, your point about personal experience, is limited by your own experience. Tell me of a science that brings Jesus directly into someone's life before a horrendous event and then I'll trust your Gods.

Yeah, I should have put a little more thought into what I wrote. If you've really had an experience that makes you believe in God, then that can be a good thing for you. But how can that suddenly make you not only believe in God, but also in the Bible as Truth? How are the two related? How can it suddenly make you trust what your priest, pastor or Pope, your Church, synagogue or mosque, the religious community as a whole have to say? How can you link one, your own belief, with the other, their beliefs? Can't we let our Gods be a private thing to us, there to help guide our lives, not the lives of others?
post #158 of 204
I agree.

When some do harm by forcing their beliefs onto others, they should be resisted and pushed back...hard.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #159 of 204
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Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, I should have put a little more thought into what I wrote. If you've really had an experience that makes you believe in God, then that can be a good thing for you. But how can that suddenly make you not only believe in God, but also in the Bible as Truth? How are the two related? How can it suddenly make you trust what your priest, pastor or Pope, your Church, synagogue or mosque, the religious community as a whole have to say? How can you link one, your own belief, with the other, their beliefs? Can't we let our Gods be a private thing to us, there to help guide our lives, not the lives of others?

I guess I feel like I owe a certain respect to the Christian faith because of my own experience. The fact is before I had an experience (yeah, I know it sounds a bit corny ) I didn't have any faith in Jesus, other than thinking he was a kind of all around good guy, that came from dubious sources that had tortured people to death and had a following which included people who I had little to no respect for.

I still don't belong to any religion though. I find it remarkable that one part of the bible rings true. I also find the bible to nothing more than an absurd story. The fact I believe a part of it that's perhaps as equally absurd as any of the rest of it, is my own place.

Far be it from me to know, I know a tiny of fraction, and those pieces alone are my religion.

I truly believe that any way of thinking about this world is as good and right as Jesus's view. We are all living beings and nothing can change that, hence God wins.




I went slightly off tangent, but if Jesus can come into my life then he must be present in all lives no matter what we or anyone else think. And whatever we think, imho opinion, about our own lives and beliefs there's always a force of light touching however unfelt, those people.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #160 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I guess I feel like I owe a certain respect to the Christian faith because of my own experience. The fact is before I had an experience (yeah, I know it sounds a bit corny ) I didn't have any faith in Jesus, other than thinking he was a kind of all around good guy, that came from dubious sources that had tortured people to death and had a following which included people who I had little to no respect for.

I still don't belong to any religion though. I find it remarkable that one part of the bible rings true. I also find the bible to nothing more than an absurd story. The fact I believe a part of it that's perhaps as equally absurd as any of the rest of it, is my own place.

Far be it from me to know, I know a tiny of fraction, and those pieces alone are my religion.

I truly believe that any way of thinking about this world is as good and right as Jesus's view. We are all living beings and nothing can change that, hence God wins.




I went slightly off tangent, but if Jesus can come into my life then he must be present in all lives no matter what we or anyone else think. And whatever we think, imho opinion, about our own lives and beliefs there's always a force of light touching however unfelt, those people.

I totally respect your view, especially your approach to your faith. If only more Christians, and followers of other belief systems, would follow such an example, this world would be a far better place indeed.
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