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Religious Absurdity Vol 2: "WTC wreckage in the shape of a cross is god's love." - Page 5

post #161 of 204
8/18/11 at 10:28pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So until they start harming others because of their beliefs, we should just understand the psychology behind it, and let them live their life as they see fit. However, when they start harming people, like the Mormons did with Prop 8, and like the Pope does in Africa, and like the church policies do with regard to birth control, and when religion is a part of the decisions of war and politics, we should not hesitate to tell them to shut the fuck up and take a more reasoned, secular view of things.

Except the moderate religious folks give a context for the extremists to thrive. It gives the extremists validity. It prevents us from attributing clearly religiously motivated acts to the religion that actually motivated the acts. You get everyone shouting a No True Scotsman fallacy...

The moderate Catholics still give money to the church that covers up child molestation. The moderate Catholics are just as much of a problem as the Pope himself.

The "moderate" evangelicals fill the pews and give credence to the anti-abortion tirades spewed by the pastors...so when an abortion doctor is murdered by an extremist, we know why he got the urge to do so. The "moderate" evangelicals are part of the problem.

The moderate Mormons still tithe to the church who brought up Prop 8. The moderate Mormons are still part of the fucking problem.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #162 of 204
8/18/11 at 11:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Except the moderate religious folks give a context for the extremists to thrive. It gives the extremists validity. It prevents us from attributing clearly religiously motivated acts to the religion that actually motivated the acts. You get everyone shouting a No True Scotsman fallacy...

The moderate Catholics still give money to the church that covers up child molestation. The moderate Catholics are just as much of a problem as the Pope himself.

The "moderate" evangelicals fill the pews and give credence to the anti-abortion tirades spewed by the pastors...so when an abortion doctor is murdered by an extremist, we know why he got the urge to do so. The "moderate" evangelicals are part of the problem.

The moderate Mormons still tithe to the church who brought up Prop 8. The moderate Mormons are still part of the fucking problem.

So it's all or nothing.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #163 of 204
8/19/11 at 2:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So it's all or nothing.

Or you could show us how you're NOT deluded, and then we'd STFU.

A little hard evidence would go a long way here.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #164 of 204
8/19/11 at 5:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Or you could show us how you're NOT deluded, and then we'd STFU.

A little hard evidence would go a long way here.

Or you could let people believe what they want to believe.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #165 of 204
8/19/11 at 6:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Or you could let people believe what they want to believe.

As long as it doesn't affect other people, sure. In fact, why do we even know what you believe? I didn't know what Hands believed. He didn't feel the need to: A) push his beliefs toward others or; B) defend beliefs that are being criticized for harming people.

You may not be doing the former, but you sure are doing the latter.
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post #166 of 204
8/19/11 at 6:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

As long as it doesn't affect other people, sure.

Good. We agree on one thing anyway. I'd be a bit more precise and say as long as someone is not trying to force their beliefs onto someone else. Affect is a bit vague and ambiguous. Besides, effects can also be positive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In fact, why do we even know what you believe?

Because I've shared my beliefs and opinions like you and others here have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I didn't know what Hands believed. He didn't feel the need to: A) push his beliefs toward others or; B) defend beliefs that are being criticized for harming people.

You may not be doing the former, but you sure are doing the latter.

How am I doing the latter exactly?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #167 of 204
8/19/11 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Or you could show us how you're NOT deluded, and then we'd STFU.

A little hard evidence would go a long way here.

Or you could stop calling people you don't know and have never met mentally ill and you would not have people taking exception at what your characterization of them or their beliefs is. Apparently respect is not a given with you. You start from a point of derision and hatred and respect had to be gained by proving that the person is not the deluded idiot you say they are.

How anyone can defend that position on this or any other board is beyond me.

And Tonton. My respect for your opinions has dropped precipitously in this thread as well.

Quote:
As long as it doesn't affect other people, sure. In fact, why do we even know what you believe? I didn't know what Hands believed. He didn't feel the need to: A) push his beliefs toward others or; B) defend beliefs that are being criticized for harming people.

You may not be doing the former, but you sure are doing the latter.

Someone cannot hold a belief that affects other people. Ever? We better all stop voting then. Everyone pull out of the political process, go home and shut your doors. This way you won't affect other people. Oh wait, this only applies to those beliefs that Tonton does not approve of. Such as religious or conservative, or apparently anything.

A) who cares? You do that with every new law, with every vote, with every post on this board.

B) alleged harm. Just because you say it does not make it so. There are beliefs that harm people when they are acted upon in a way that is harmful. Trying to tie all the beliefs of that person to a harmful act is wrong, as you have pointed out on these boards before when you or others defend Islam and its Muslim adherents from the same type of argument.

KOSH, BR, and Tonton. I believe in God. I believe that he sent his son Jesus to us to show us love and to provide us a way to be closer with him. I believe that God heals people. I have many friends and family that have been healed from devastating diseases when the doctors said they were not able to help. The most recent was a wife of a former pastor of mine. She had stage 4 cancer that had spread to her lymphatic system. They were getting ready to do chemotherapy and radiation treatments. She went home for 2 weeks and came back to find out where they would begin and the cancer could not be found in her system at all. You may call it whatever you like, but cancer does not just disappear, not at that stage.

My grandmother has prayed for my sister when she was younger and had an allergy to a food. The next day the allergy was no longer there. Tested by doctors. They are not sure why but she can eat that food now with no issues.

I have many stories like this. But you will dismiss them all as somehow explainable. Yu always have in the past because not believing for you is easier than believing. I will not be posting on this anymore except to defend others.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #168 of 204
8/19/11 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Those things, if true, are evidence that you don't have the answers as to why they happened. They are not evidence of a god. They are not evidence of the Christian god, specifically, either.

Attribution theory, my friend. Causal flaws abound.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #169 of 204
8/19/11 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

... but cancer does not just disappear, not at that stage.

Apparently, it DOES!

Wouldn't it be better to figure out what went on within that body to get rid of the cancer? So that, in the future, the same process can be aided in other people that have cancer?

Just SAYING "god did it" doesn't mean there wasn't a physical process going on within the body that stopped it.

Again, all we ask is for you to back up your claims with some real evidence.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #170 of 204
8/19/11 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Apparently, it DOES!

Wouldn't it be better to figure out what went on within that body to get rid of the cancer? So that, in the future, the same process can be aided in other people that have cancer?

Just SAYING "god did it" doesn't mean there wasn't a physical process going on within the body that stopped it.

Again, all we ask is for you to back up your claims with some real evidence.

Thank you for proving my point so elegantly. The person had cancer. They came home, were prayed for healing, went back to the doctor for treatment, and no cancer left. No other changes to the person. No dietary changes, no medications. NOTHING.

A religious person attributes it to prayer. You attribute it to science. Tell me, if nothing changed, why did the cancer go away?

BR?

You cannot explain it. And you will not accept anything that you cannot explain.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #171 of 204
8/19/11 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Those things, if true, are evidence that you don't have the answers as to why they happened. They are not evidence of a god. They are not evidence of the Christian god, specifically, either.

Attribution theory, my friend. Causal flaws abound.

Why did I even bother?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #172 of 204
8/19/11 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Thank you for proving my point so elegantly. The person had cancer. They came home, were prayed for healing, went back to the doctor for treatment, and no cancer left. No other changes to the person. No dietary changes, no medications. NOTHING.

A religious person attributes it to prayer. You attribute it to science. Tell me, if nothing changed, why did the cancer go away?

BR?

You cannot explain it. And you will not accept anything that you cannot explain.

But there MIGHT have been a physiological reason. Your scenario is certainly not evidence of divine intervention. You are certainly able to interpret it that way, because that is how you have trained yourself to interpret anything you don't understand. But a lack of understanding about what happened does not mean there was a god involved.

Again... Show me some evidence, something that couldn't be explained by simpler, natural processes and I'll admit I was wrong.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #173 of 204
8/19/11 at 3:20pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
When reading Noah's last post, I heard it in Bill O'Reilly's voice. Tide goes in. Tide goes out. You can't explain it!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #174 of 204
8/19/11 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

But there MIGHT have been a physiological reason. Your scenario is certainly not evidence of divine intervention. You are certainly able to interpret it that way, because that is how you have trained yourself to interpret anything you don't understand. But a lack of understanding about what happened does not mean there was a god involved.

Again... Show me some evidence, something that couldn't be explained by simpler, natural processes and I'll admit I was wrong.

I suppose there might. She might have, after falling susceptible to cancer and having it spread through her body fairly uncontrolled, had some sort of super immune reaction that just happened to kick off, after seeing a doctor and then being prayed for with no other external changes whatsoever.

Since she was not part of a scientifically controlled study with every part of her physiology being monitored however, request for more information denied.

You are free to interpret it anyway you wish. Just don't tell me I am not.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #175 of 204
8/19/11 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

When reading Noah's last post, I heard it in Bill O'Reilly's voice. Tide goes in. Tide goes out. You can't explain it!

When reading your last post I heard the last gasp of a truly spiteful person. You explain it to me sir.

Tide going in and out, that is fairly easy.
Sun "rising". Easy.

Cancer not just retreating, but simply disappearing after having a grapefruit sized tumor and having it spread through the body reaching stage 4 status. Not so easy.

One more stupid comment insulting my intelligence and you go on ignore.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #176 of 204
8/19/11 at 3:48pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Unexplained event....................logical grand canyon.......................god did it.

This is classic god of the gaps thinking. I'm sorry you take such offense in pointing it out. You keep going back and reiterating just how unlikely the event was...but all that demonstrates is that the answer is not readily available to us and that we may never know what actually happened. It takes a major logical fallacy to go beyond that.

Double blind studies have been done. Prayer doesn't do shit when the patient doesn't know about the prayer. It doesn't go beyond placebo when the patient does know. Please stop making the causal flaw that prayer must have been what eliminated the cancer. If not, I have a rock that prevents tiger attacks to sell you.

By the way, the tides comment was a Bill O'Reilly quote. He then, when the tides were explained to him, asked who put the moon there, reiterating that we can't explain that...god lives where his knowledge ends. I saw a parallel in your case. Your god seems to inhabit the gaps in your knowledge as well. That was all. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #177 of 204
8/19/11 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Unexplained event....................logical grand canyon.......................god did it.

This is classic god of the gaps thinking. I'm sorry you take such offense in pointing it out. You keep going back and reiterating just how unlikely the event was...but all that demonstrates is that the answer is not readily available to us and that we may never know what actually happened. It takes a major logical fallacy to go beyond that.

Double blind studies have been done. Prayer doesn't do shit when the patient doesn't know about the prayer. It doesn't go beyond placebo when the patient does know. Please stop making the causal flaw that prayer must have been what eliminated the cancer. If not, I have a rock that prevents tiger attacks to sell you.

By the way, the tides comment was a Bill O'Reilly quote. He then, when the tides were explained to him, asked who put the moon there, reiterating that we can't explain that...god lives where his knowledge ends. I saw a parallel in your case. Your god seems to inhabit the gaps in your knowledge as well. That was all. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

I know what the O'Reilly quote was referencing. I pay attention to what is posted here and saw the first time it was posted way back when. I also know what you were trying to say. I don't take offense in you pointing anything out, I take offense at the way you choose to do so.

Like your stupid rock comment. Enjoy your time speaking to yourself. You have lost my patience, and much of my respect.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #178 of 204
8/19/11 at 4:01pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
But I carry this rock with me all the time and have never been attacked by a tiger.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #179 of 204
8/19/11 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But I carry this rock with me all the time and have never been attacked by a tiger.

Talk to me when you walk in to a room full of hungry tigers that attack anything that moves and they skip you. That is the difference here that you are ignoring.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #180 of 204
8/19/11 at 4:25pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
And if they don't attack me, I still can't say it was the fucking rock that did anything. Except you seem to think you can. Casual flaw. Period.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #181 of 204
8/19/11 at 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And if they don't attack me, I still can't say it was the fucking rock that did anything. Except you seem to think you can. Casual flaw. Period.

At least then you have a leg to stand on more than just talk. Especially if there is nothing else to differentiate you from everything else being attacked.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #182 of 204
8/19/11 at 4:51pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
No, I don't. And no, you don't.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #183 of 204
8/19/11 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

KOSH, BR, and Tonton. I believe in God. I believe that he sent his son Jesus to us to show us love and to provide us a way to be closer with him. I believe that God heals people. I have many friends and family that have been healed from devastating diseases when the doctors said they were not able to help. The most recent was a wife of a former pastor of mine. She had stage 4 cancer that had spread to her lymphatic system. They were getting ready to do chemotherapy and radiation treatments. She went home for 2 weeks and came back to find out where they would begin and the cancer could not be found in her system at all. You may call it whatever you like, but cancer does not just disappear, not at that stage.

My grandmother has prayed for my sister when she was younger and had an allergy to a food. The next day the allergy was no longer there. Tested by doctors. They are not sure why but she can eat that food now with no issues.

I have many stories like this. But you will dismiss them all as somehow explainable.

There are a million stories like this. Illnesses get inexplicably cured. Even for Atheists. Even for Hindus. Perhaps even for Satanists.

You could easily prove that prayer has an effect. Surely there are statistics that show that people who are prayed for have fewer illnesses or are cured more often than people who are not prayed for, more than could be explained by the Placebo effect. Right?

Oh? You don't have such statistics, you say? Are you saying no Christian has ever made a study on the matter? I find that hard to believe. What's easy to believe is that the matter has been studied, and proved that prayer made no difference beyond being a good placebo. And the Christians held on to the results of their failed studies.
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post #184 of 204
8/19/11 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Talk to me when you walk in to a room full of hungry tigers that attack anything that moves and they skip you. That is the difference here that you are ignoring.

That's not God. That's poor hygiene.
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post #185 of 204
8/19/11 at 10:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That's not God. That's poor hygiene.

That was at least funny. We were talking about his rock though. Not God.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #186 of 204
8/19/11 at 10:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There are a million stories like this. Illnesses get inexplicably cured. Even for Atheists. Even for Hindus. Perhaps even for Satanists.

You could easily prove that prayer has an effect. Surely there are statistics that show that people who are prayed for have fewer illnesses or are cured more often than people who are not prayed for, more than could be explained by the Placebo effect. Right?

Oh? You don't have such statistics, you say? Are you saying no Christian has ever made a study on the matter? I find that hard to believe. What's easy to believe is that the matter has been studied, and proved that prayer made no difference beyond being a good placebo. And the Christians held on to the results of their failed studies.

Studies are done all the time. The question is, how reliable are they? You can read aout some on Wikipedia with varying results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer#...prayer_healing

If that is what gets your interest, go to town.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #187 of 204
8/20/11 at 1:29am
Honestly that cross looks manufactured to me. Was it really pulled out of the ground that way?
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #188 of 204
8/20/11 at 7:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Honestly that cross looks manufactured to me. Was it really pulled out of the ground that way?

Yes. Did a google image search and this site as well as many others came up. It came out of the rubble just like it is.
http://madmikesamerica.com/2011/07/a...-center-cross/

NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #189 of 204
8/20/11 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Blind faith - because thinking is hard!

Who says it's blind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Would someone who believes something without evidence be considered informed? No.

Believers have plenty of evidence. It's just not evidence you accept.

Quote:

Would someone who believes something without evidence be considered reasonable? No.

There are no reasonable people that believe in God?

Quote:

Would someone who believes something without evidence be considered rational? No.

See A and B.

Quote:

When those unfounded beliefs also are central to their identities, yes, it's fair to call much of the world unreasonable, uninformed, and irrational with regard to those specific beliefs.

What's not to get SDW?

How do you define "part of their identities?" And it seems to me that you're the one making it "their identity." This is because you're a bigot. You cannot accept those with who you disagree.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #190 of 204
8/20/11 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

But there MIGHT have been a physiological reason. Your scenario is certainly not evidence of divine intervention. You are certainly able to interpret it that way, because that is how you have trained yourself to interpret anything you don't understand. But a lack of understanding about what happened does not mean there was a god involved.

Again... Show me some evidence, something that couldn't be explained by simpler, natural processes and I'll admit I was wrong.


Prove it wasn't divine intervention. And don't start with the burden of proof shit, either.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #191 of 204
8/20/11 at 6:10pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Prove it wasn't divine intervention. And don't start with the burden of proof shit, either.

You say the latter as if that means that the burden of proof actually is shifted to us. EXCEPT IT'S NOT. It is not up to us to disprove your nonsense. It is up to you to prove it. If you can't, then there is no reason for you or anyone else to believe it.

You saying "don't start with the burden of proof shit, either" is like saying "DON'T START WITH THAT LOGIC AND FACTS AND REASON SHIT, EITHER." Well, yeah, you kind of just proved your beliefs are fucking insane--if what you believe makes you somehow think that you are in a privileged position no one else enjoys in which you don't have to provide evidence for the things you posit, that's fucking nuts. End of story.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #192 of 204
8/20/11 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Believers have plenty of evidence. It's just not evidence you accept.

Of course it's not. It's all hearsay and hearsay is unacceptable evidence.

Would you want to walk into a court of law and have someone point a finger at you and say, "God told me he's guilty! It was divine communication directly from God!" And off to jail with you?

Well... "God says that marriage is between a man and a woman," is the same thing.
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post #193 of 204
8/20/11 at 9:31pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Indeed. In no other arena will the religious let anyone else get away with the same lack of solid evidence. Hell, we can point to plenty of other threads that Noah, SDW, jazz, MJ, trumpet, et al. demand evidence with regard to taxation or a whole host of other issues. Yet, here, suddenly all those rules of evidence get thrown out the window. And it's somehow offensive to bring this up because pointing out their hypocrisy hurts their fragile feelings.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #194 of 204
8/21/11 at 9:13am
Here's an interesting video. A renowned scientist who advises the Chinese and NASA space programs...and believes in God?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #195 of 204
8/21/11 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Indeed. In no other arena will the religious let anyone else get away with the same lack of solid evidence. Hell, we can point to plenty of other threads that Noah, SDW, jazz, MJ, trumpet, et al. demand evidence with regard to taxation or a whole host of other issues. Yet, here, suddenly all those rules of evidence get thrown out the window. And it's somehow offensive to bring this up because pointing out their hypocrisy hurts their fragile feelings.

Taxation is not the same thing as the existence of a deity. Nor are a host of other issues.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #196 of 204
8/21/11 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Of course it's not. It's all hearsay and hearsay is unacceptable evidence.

No, it's simply not scientific evidence, which is the only evidence you'll accept.

Quote:

Would you want to walk into a court of law and have someone point a finger at you and say, "God told me he's guilty! It was divine communication directly from God!" And off to jail with you?

Our courts rely on scientific evidence. However, they also rely on circumstantial evidence. Apparently that's not something you believe in either?

Quote:

Well... "God says that marriage is between a man and a woman," is the same thing.

In your mind, yes, because short of a bearded man in the sky appearing to everyone on Earth and proclaiming the very same, you won't accept it. You will only accept what you can see, touch and measure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You say the latter as if that means that the burden of proof actually is shifted to us. EXCEPT IT'S NOT. It is not up to us to disprove your nonsense. It is up to you to prove it. If you can't, then there is no reason for you or anyone else to believe it.

I don't need to prove anything to you, nor do I expect anyone else to believe what I do. I'll post it for the third time: I'm not trying to convince you God's existence.

Quote:
You saying "don't start with the burden of proof shit, either" is like saying "DON'T START WITH THAT LOGIC AND FACTS AND REASON SHIT, EITHER." Well, yeah, you kind of just proved your beliefs are fucking insane--if what you believe makes you somehow think that you are in a privileged position no one else enjoys in which you don't have to provide evidence for the things you posit, that's fucking nuts. End of story.

Stating the burden of proof is on believers is your standard cop-out to having to admit that you cannot disprove God's existence. On the other side, we believers have openly stated that we cannot scientifically prove God's existence, but choose to believe for other reasons. This blows your mind, so to speak. You cannot accept it, causing you to to engage in the very kind of religious crusade you claim to despise. ALL BELIEVERS ARE FUCKING STUPID! THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH!

Really, you should hear yourself.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #197 of 204
8/21/11 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

And don't start with the burden of proof shit, either.

So.... I can claim ANYthing I want?... ANY outlandish claim I care to make is, by default, true unless you can DIS-prove it???

The burden of proof has always been on the person making a claim... even (especially) among scientists.

In no other arena (than mysticism) is the lack of contrary evidence considered supporting evidence.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Prove it wasn't divine intervention.

Obviously, that's not possible.
But I can find TONS of evidence that shows how it could be non-divine, while you can provide no evidence whatsoever that it WAS divine.

By your reasoning, the mere fact that I don't believe god exists means anything I have to say on the matter is absolutely meaningless, regardless of supporting evidence.
But then, I'm not really here to persuade you ... I'm here for entertainment. (And to let other reasonable people who may be reading this know that, yes Virginia, there are more of us out there than the U.S. media would have you believe.)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #198 of 204
8/22/11 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

So.... I can claim ANYthing I want?... ANY outlandish claim I care to make is, by default, true unless you can DIS-prove it???

The burden of proof has always been on the person making a claim... even (especially) among scientists.

In no other arena (than mysticism) is the lack of contrary evidence considered supporting evidence.

You still have apparently not grasped one important fact: I am not making a claim at all.

Quote:

Obviously, that's not possible.

Correct.

Quote:
But I can find TONS of evidence that shows how it could be non-divine, while you can provide no evidence whatsoever that it WAS divine.

Right, so you can't prove it...you can just provide theories. And again, I need not provide any evidence, because I'm not claiming a damn thing. My only point is that you cannot disprove divinity.

Quote:

By your reasoning, the mere fact that I don't believe god exists means anything I have to say on the matter is absolutely meaningless, regardless of supporting evidence.

Not at all. I am more than happy to read your thoughts on why God doesn't exist, what leads you to that conclusion, etc. However, I am not willing to let you call all believers idiots, fools and the like.

Quote:
But then, I'm not really here to persuade you ... I'm here for entertainment. (And to let other reasonable people who may be reading this know that, yes Virginia, there are more of us out there than the U.S. media would have you believe.)

You're not really that entertaining. You're more of a distraction, really. As for how many of you there are, I'll go with the established data instead of your notions of a media conspiracy by the American media. Peace.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #199 of 204
8/22/11 at 2:54pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You still have apparently not grasped one important fact: I am not making a claim at all.

Yes, you are. You claim divinity actually exists.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #200 of 204
8/22/11 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yes, you are. You claim divinity actually exists.

The word "claim" is the problem here. A claim is something publicly stated and held to be true. I am only speaking to the belief that I have. I am not proposing you accept my beliefs, nor anyone else. I am not proclaiming my beliefs to be the only real truth.

BR, it is you who are "making a claim." You are are running around screaming GOD ISN'T REAL and calling anyone who disagrees a fool. You are making the claim. Not me.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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