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Religious Absurdity Vol 2: "WTC wreckage in the shape of a cross is god's love." - Page 3

post #81 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Is federally funding museums an enumerated power?

You tell me.
post #82 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

They aren't federal funding a cross. They are placing a piece of debris from the collapse of the towers in a museum. This is the what you can't seem to wrap your mind around.

So the people putting that "debris" in the museum are doing it for free. The museum staff presenting the "debris" isn't getting paid. The security staff aren't getting paid. The museum has no real estate value.

Yeah... they are not "federal funding" [sic] a cross...

A tit-for-tat response to your personal attack on my intelligence: You can't even get your mind around the most basic form of the English language, and you're a goddamned teacher.
post #83 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So the people putting that "debris" in the museum are doing it for free. The museum staff presenting the "debris" isn't getting paid. The security staff aren't getting paid. The museum has no real estate value.

Yeah... they are not "federal funding" [sic] a cross...

A tit-for-tat response to your personal attack on my intelligence: You can't even get your mind around the most basic form of the English language, and you're a goddamned teacher.

I could give a crap about a typo. No one need do it for free. Stop being mentally deficient on this matter. It is actual debris. Are you being intentionally obtuse here or what? It wasn't debris that the government sent off and had fashioned into something different. It is a chunk of debris from the wreckage and nothing more. Will some people look at it and think something more, sure but that isn't a religious endorsement.

If this isn't about thought control then tell me how this piece of debris is any different from all the other debris cleaned up, collected and displayed in the memorial.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #84 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I could give a crap about a typo. No one need do it for free. Stop being mentally deficient on this matter. It is actual debris. Are you being intentionally obtuse here or what? It wasn't debris that the government sent off and had fashioned into something different. It is a chunk of debris from the wreckage and nothing more. Will some people look at it and think something more, sure but that isn't a religious endorsement.

If this isn't about thought control then tell me how this piece of debris is any different from all the other debris cleaned up, collected and displayed in the memorial.

It is a promotion of one belief over others. Deliberate or not, that is arguable, but it doesn't even matter. What matters is that the result of the display promotes one belief over others. And that display is funded by Government funds.
post #85 of 204
It may be debris, but they intentionally picked a piece in the shape of a cross because of its religious symbolism.
You KNOW that's the case.
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post #86 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

It may be debris, but they intentionally picked a piece in the shape of a cross because of its religious symbolism.
You KNOW that's the case.

Intentional or not, it doesn't matter one bit. It's in the shape of a cross, so it promotes one belief over others, including non-belief. And it's government funded. That's the very definition of nationalizing religion.

Let me ask the denialists this:

If it were in the shape of a Swastika, would they display it?

How about a hammer and sickle?

What if it were in the shape of a crescent and star? Would you display it at Ground Zero? I mean it's just "debris", right?

Stop being hypocrites and admit it's not an unbiased choice.
post #87 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It is a promotion of one belief over others. Deliberate or not, that is arguable, but it doesn't even matter. What matters is that the result of the display promotes one belief over others. And that display is funded by Government funds.

That is where you are wrong. Deliberate or not absolutely matters. I've referred you a couple times now to the Lemon test aka Lemon v. Kurtzman. Your best bet would be with the second part of it but it doesn't just state primary effect of advancing religion, it also cannot inhibit religion.

This piece of debris has a primary purpose and it is being a piece of debris. Does it have a secondary purpose? Of course and no one here has denied what it will mean to some people in a secondary manner. However it was not primarily crafted as a cross. It was not sent to some workshop where the government spent funds to give it certain dimensions or anything like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

It may be debris, but they intentionally picked a piece in the shape of a cross because of its religious symbolism.
You KNOW that's the case.

They picked the piece, but using crosses to remember and memorialize the dead is constitutionally sound. If you look at Arlington National Cemetary you see plenty of crosses on headstones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Intentional or not, it doesn't matter one bit. It's in the shape of a cross, so it promotes one belief over others, including non-belief. And it's government funded. That's the very definition of nationalizing religion.

Let me ask the denialists this:

If it were in the shape of a Swastika, would they display it?

How about a hammer and sickle?

What if it were in the shape of a crescent and star? Would you display it at Ground Zero? I mean it's just "debris", right?

Stop being hypocrites and admit it's not an unbiased choice.

Would a certain percentage of people be upset about the shape of the debris? Sure, but would it be Constitutional? Yes. As for denialists, label yourself because this case is an absolute loser. The people in denial about that are the ones who deserve the label.

Now I've got to go get ready to lead the kids in the pledge which has passed the Lemon test.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #88 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

But we DO KNOW what happens when we die.... NOTHING!

Prove it.

Quote:

We see it all the time, EVERY time someone dies... nothing happens. You're just dead... that's the end... period.

And we see all there is to see? That's called arrogance.

Quote:
No, people don't want their life to end, so they imagine what it would be like if there were something else. Then they make up stories about that. It gets passed around until they become so engrained in the culture that people actually BELIEVE that crap.

You are welcome to believe or not believe whatever you wish. As I've said, you cannot disprove God, just as I cannot prove Him.

Quote:
There's still no evidence and nothing other than imagination to explain such ideas.
Every time someone dies we have fresh evidence that NOTHING happens... but people's desires and fears cause them to cling to their invented "beliefs" for which there is NO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER!

We don't have evidence proving "nothing" happens. All we have is what we see. Surely you must be able to accept that there are many things in this world that we cannot explain scientifically? And we do have many reports of near death experiences and reports from people that have been dead for several minutes before coming back. Now, you can call their stories hallucinations...that's fine. But you can't prove that's what they are.

The real problem I have with you here is that you're trying to tell every believer on this Earth that he's a dolt. You're right, they are wrong. It's exceptionally arrogant of you to try and convince others that their religious beliefs are wrong. You should really take notice that I and other believers here have not done the same. Unlike your side, we've not resorted to personally attacking atheists. You'll find plenty of references to God being a "fucking fairytale," but you won't see anything about you being a "soulless, Godless bastard" or something similar. I'm more than happy to explain my beliefs and even defend them. But I've not argued that you should believe one way or the other. I respect your belief system even if I disagree with it. You apparently do not have this ability.
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post #89 of 204
Thread Starter 
SDW, the burden of proof rests on you to prove something DOES happen after death. The default position is we don't know. The extraordinary lack of evidence points pretty solidly toward nothing happening. The vast majority of people who fail to reason are indeed dolts with regard to that aspect of their lives. They may very well be wonderfully intelligent in other ways--but they are fucking retards when it comes to their religious beliefs.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #90 of 204
Nick, hate to break it to you, but the display of the cross absolutely fails part 2 of the Lemon test. There's no fucking way that the government's choice of this particular piece of rubble over the thousand of other available pieces doesn't have the primary effect of advancing religion. No way.

It's "primary effect", not "primary purpose". Purpose is irrelevant, exactly as I said.
post #91 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Nick, hate to break it to you, but the display of the cross absolutely fails part 2 of the Lemon test. There's no fucking way that the government's choice of this particular piece of rubble over the thousand of other available pieces doesn't have the primary effect of advancing religion. No way.

It's "primary effect", not "primary purpose". Purpose is irrelevant, exactly as I said.

I'd have to say you are wrong and so will the courts. They do not have your hatred for religion to cloud their reasoning.

The House of Representatives opens business with a prayer. The pledge has "under God" in it. Government cemeteries have headstones with religious iconography.

This where the test has overruled legislation or actions are items like prayer in school. However as an example similar to this cross, they have found repeatedly that a moment of silence is constitutional.

This isn't a religious school voucher. It isn't prayer in school. It isn't a teacher teaching from the Bible or the government funding a church program. The effect or purpose of whatever happens from this debris is completely secondary.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #92 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I'd have to say you are wrong and so will the courts. They do not have your hatred for religion to cloud their reasoning.

The House of Representatives opens business with a prayer. The pledge has "under God" in it. Government cemeteries have headstones with religious iconography.

This where the test has overruled legislation or actions are items like prayer in school. However as an example similar to this cross, they have found repeatedly that a moment of silence is constitutional.

This isn't a religious school voucher. It isn't prayer in school. It isn't a teacher teaching from the Bible or the government funding a church program. The effect or purpose of whatever happens from this debris is completely secondary.

No, it's not, otherwise this particular piece of debris could easily be replaced by another piece of debris. Again, it's "effect", not "purpose". That's explicitly stated, and I'm not making it up.
post #93 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

SDW, the burden of proof rests on you to prove something DOES happen after death. The default position is we don't know. The extraordinary lack of evidence points pretty solidly toward nothing happening. The vast majority of people who fail to reason are indeed dolts with regard to that aspect of their lives. They may very well be wonderfully intelligent in other ways--but they are fucking retards when it comes to their religious beliefs.

You might want to re-read this particular argument again before saying SDW is wrong.

KOSH started this argument with:
Quote:
But we DO KNOW what happens when we die.... NOTHING!

We see it all the time, EVERY time someone dies... nothing happens. You're just dead... that's the end... period.

Emphasis his. He has stated, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt. The argument from our side is, no you don't. BR, you are arguing with the wrong person this time. . KOSH says we KNOW what happens. But you will be ok with his argument I guess. Since it is anti religion.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #94 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No, it's not, otherwise this particular piece of debris could easily be replaced by another piece of debris. Again, it's "effect", not "purpose". That's explicitly stated, and I'm not making it up.

Guess well find out soon enough who understands it right and who does not.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #95 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

SDW, the burden of proof rests on you to prove something DOES happen after death.


No, I'm not required to prove anything. I am not here to have some debate on who is right and who is wrong on this topic. You are more than free to have your beliefs.

Quote:
The default position is we don't know.

That is where faith comes in, something you clearly don't understand.

Quote:

The extraordinary lack of evidence points pretty solidly toward nothing happening.

There is at least as much evidence that something does happen as this there is that nothing happens.

Quote:

The vast majority of people who fail to reason are indeed dolts with regard to that aspect of their lives. They may very well be wonderfully intelligent in other ways--but they are fucking retards when it comes to their religious beliefs.

It's not a failure to reason at all. It's an acceptance that we cannot explain what happens. It's not an unquestioning faith, either. I think that's where you misjudge people of faith in particular. Many of us believe that God expects us to question. Many of us question our faith in some way...all the time. But through personal experiences, the stories of others, etc...we have chosen to accept God...on faith.

It's ironic, really. What you're essentially doing is calling people that believe in God closed-minded. In reality I suggest you are the one who refuses to open your mind. Only believing in that which can be proved via scientific experiment is a relatively narrow existence in my view.
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post #96 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Emphasis his. He has stated, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt. The argument from our side is, no you don't. BR, you are arguing with the wrong person this time. . KOSH says we KNOW what happens. But you will be ok with his argument I guess. Since it is anti religion.

We know this based on countless observations, looking at all available evidence. all the evidence leads us to thhe conclusion that nothing happens... You just die.
(Now, by your silly argument, we could just as easily be living in the Matrix, and absolutely nothing that you believe, including your god, is real... You just can't KNOW it beyond any doubt whatsoever.)

The difference between someone that uses their brain and someone that uses only faith, is that I am willing to change my beliefs when evidence shows they are no longer supportable. in fact, I will actively look for that evidence... I will TRY to disprove my own beliefs. I WANT to know the truth.
Your "faith" does not allow you to question it's tenants. It is what it is and no amount of contrary evidence will sway you. In fact, you will go out of your way to ignore evidence that shows your beliefs are likely false.

And that is the danger of religion to the rest of society. It causes people to willfully ignore the truth. For how long did the Christian church deny the helliocentric nature of our solar system after it had been definitively proven correct???... The world will never know how much progress was retarded because of the suppression of truth by politically motivated religions.
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post #97 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No, it's not, otherwise this particular piece of debris could easily be replaced by another piece of debris. Again, it's "effect", not "purpose". That's explicitly stated, and I'm not making it up.

I'm sure other pieces of debris are being displayed in various ways and in various places. You make it an 'or' choice instead of an 'and' choice.

I mean you are aware this is in a museum right? There are all sorts of exhibits featuring all manner of items and pieces of debris from that day. Are you just sitting there picturing it all alone in a room or something? I don't really see how when this one item will likely be featured among a thousand of others how you can declare it is some sort of favoritism.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #98 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

We know this based on countless observations, looking at all available evidence. all the evidence leads us to thhe conclusion that nothing happens... You just die.
(Now, by your silly argument, we could just as easily be living in the Matrix, and absolutely nothing that you believe, including your god, is real... You just can't KNOW it beyond any doubt whatsoever.)

The difference between someone that uses their brain and someone that uses only faith, is that I am willing to change my beliefs when evidence shows they are no longer supportable. in fact, I will actively look for that evidence... I will TRY to disprove my own beliefs. I WANT to know the truth.
Your "faith" does not allow you to question it's tenants. It is what it is and no amount of contrary evidence will sway you. In fact, you will go out of your way to ignore evidence that shows your beliefs are likely false.

And that is the danger of religion to the rest of society. It causes people to willfully ignore the truth. For how long did the Christian church deny the helliocentric nature of our solar system after it had been definitively proven correct???... The world will never know how much progress was retarded because of the suppression of truth by politically motivated religions.

Silly arguments (which argument did I make that was so silly), unquestioning belief, ignoring evidence, dangerous religious beliefs, denier of truth, actively not wanting to know the truth. So many ad-Homs. So little writing space.

When you ares ready to talk to me, and not attack what you think I believe then the conversation might be easier.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #99 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I'm sure other pieces of debris are being displayed in various ways and in various places. You make it an 'or' choice instead of an 'and' choice.

I'm sure they are. That doesn't make it not an "or" choice. There are thousands upon thousands of pieces of debris. The primary effect of this particular piece invokes a religious response.
post #100 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'm sure they are. That doesn't make it not an "or" choice. There are thousands upon thousands of pieces of debris. The primary effect of this particular piece invokes a religious response.

So what, get over it dude.

So many things to get worked up over and you guys are this wrapped up over something that is, like it or not, a part of American life.

It has become so much a simple symbol of good, and less a real symbol of anything religious. Yes, it started as a fully religious symbol, but even with the religious overtones, it is not that for some many people. And you cannot wait to stomp it out.

Just get over it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #101 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'm sure they are. That doesn't make it not an "or" choice. There are thousands upon thousands of pieces of debris. The primary effect of this particular piece invokes a religious response.

It is the primary effect of the GOVERNMENT's action. It is to advance or INHIBIT religion.

The primary effect of the government's action to gather a thousand+ pieces of debris, mementos and other items related to 9/11 and display them in a museum is not to advance religion. In fact to purposefully exclude artifacts simply because they are religious in nature causes the government's primary action to be one of inhibiting religious expression. The government did not pay someone to craft a cross from the debris of 9/11 to have a primary effect of advancing religious thought. The people themselves found the piece of debris and had the religious thoughts of their own accord. That means the government's actions related to the piece are secondary effects.

It's clear your bias stops you from seeing this clearly. You go to Arlington National Cemetery. You will see thousands of headstones all piaced there by the government and almost all of them containing crosses on the headstones. The government even pays all the costs for the headstones when burying someone there.

Could a person, especially when thinking about the death of loved one or those killed in wars visit the headstone, see the various religious emblems, have a religious thought or perhaps even dozens of them? Sure but is the primary effect of all those headstones and their religious emblems an attempt to advance religion? No it isn't.

The primary effect of the government building a museum and displaying debris and memorials from 9/11 is not to advance religion. The fact that some of the debris is in the shape of religious iconography or perhaps is outright religious, say a charred Bible or religious items of clothing recovered, does not change the primary effect of the government's actions.

Go look at pictures of Arlington National Cemetery. You will see thousands of crosses, bought, installed and kept up by the United States Government on government land.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #102 of 204
It's the primary effect of the government's action to display this particular piece of debris, like it or not. The question here is not whether the museum is constitutional, or whether the display of debris is constitutional. The question here is whether the display of this particular piece of debris is constitutional.
post #103 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's the primary effect of the government's action to display this particular piece of debris, like it or not. The question here is not whether the museum is constitutional, or whether the display of debris is constitutional. The question here is whether the display of this particular piece of debris is constitutional.

Does this cross establish a religion as the religion of the government?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #104 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Does this cross establish a religion as the religion of the government?

No, but it promotes religion. Which is a no-no.
post #105 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

No, but it promotes religion. Which is a no-no.

So we disagree.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #106 of 204
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

You might want to re-read this particular argument again before saying SDW is wrong.

KOSH started this argument with:


Emphasis his. He has stated, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt. The argument from our side is, no you don't. BR, you are arguing with the wrong person this time. . KOSH says we KNOW what happens. But you will be ok with his argument I guess. Since it is anti religion.

Nope. KOSH's argument is more reasonable than yours because he is erring on the side of no invisible pink unicorns existing because there isn't a single fucking shred of evidence that can be presented in favor of them. And, presented with real evidence, he actually would reevaluate the situation and consider changing his stance. You religious folk don't.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #107 of 204
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

It has become so much a simple symbol of good, and less a real symbol of anything religious.

Say that to the little boys getting diddled by their priests. Say that to the Ugandan homosexuals being put to death for being who they are. Say that to the thousands upon thousands of Africans dying of AIDS. Say that to the families of dead soldiers who had their funerals protested. Say that to the Muslims who just wanted their own house of worship in NYC.

Symbol of good my ass.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #108 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

...unquestioning belief, ignoring evidence, dangerous religious beliefs, denier of truth, actively not wanting to know the truth...

I notice that while you consider them "Ad-Hominem" arguments, you also don't (can't?) deny any of them.

(from the dictionary definition: "...The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy, but it is not always fallacious...")
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post #109 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Nope. KOSH's argument is more reasonable than yours because he is erring on the side of no invisible pink unicorns existing because there isn't a single fucking shred of evidence that can be presented in favor of them. And, presented with real evidence, he actually would reevaluate the situation and consider changing his stance. You religious folk don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Say that to the little boys getting diddled by their priests. Say that to the Ugandan homosexuals being put to death for being who they are. Say that to the thousands upon thousands of Africans dying of AIDS. Say that to the families of dead soldiers who had their funerals protested. Say that to the Muslims who just wanted their own house of worship in NYC.

Symbol of good my ass.

As I said. You will have no problem with his argument saying he KNOWS because it aligns with yours.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #110 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I notice that while you consider them "Ad-Hominem" arguments, you also don't (can't?) deny any of them.

(from the dictionary definition: "...The ad hominem is normally described as a logical fallacy, but it is not always fallacious...")

I did not report them, and that is all the courtesy you are going to get from me. Refutation of your argument would be a waste of any religious persons time as your hatred of religion is so ingrained anything that would be said could not ever be heard by you for what it was. Look to your ad-Homs for examples of why this is true.

At least be honest. Short of God himself pimp slapping you, nothing would convince you any different on these forums. Nothing. Same goes for BR. Every story and miracle I have brought up were either delusions, or coincidences since it does not happen to everyone or since some that had them happen were not Christians. Who says miracles are reserved for Christians?

Whatever, I am wasting my time even trying. Hopefully someday your mind will actually be as open as you claim it is and you will stop feeling the need to tell religious people what to think and believe. BR, that goes for you too.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #111 of 204
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

As I said. You will have no problem with his argument saying he KNOWS because it aligns with yours.

Wrong. I have fewer problems with his argument because it's actually reasonable. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there isn't a single shred in favor of some sort of afterlife. The proposition is rather absurd and dismissing it until further evidence is presented is totally fine. Going the step further and saying one knows for sure isn't supported but so isn't my belief that there isn't an invisible dragon in my garage or that 12 foot invisible marshmallow toads go around surreptitiously fucking everyone with their incorporeal camel dicks.

Do I really have to qualify every statement and leave room for the possibility that those serial rapist sugary amphibian-dromedary hybrids have a chance at existing?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #112 of 204
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I did not report them, and that is all the courtesy you are going to get from me. Refutation of your argument would be a waste of any religious persons time as your hatred of religion is so ingrained anything that would be said could not ever be heard by you for what it was. Look to your ad-Homs for examples of why this is true.

At least be honest. Short of God himself pimp slapping you, nothing would convince you any different on these forums. Nothing. Same goes for BR. Every story and miracle I have brought up were either delusions, or coincidences since it does not happen to everyone or since some that had them happen were not Christians. Who says miracles are reserved for Christians?

Whatever, I am wasting my time even trying. Hopefully someday your mind will actually be as open as you claim it is and you will stop feeling the need to tell religious people what to think and believe. BR, that goes for you too.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Eyewitness accounts are shady and unreliable, especially when there's motive to lie. Miracles can be explained. Those that can't don't immediately require the god hypothesis. You just WANT to belief so you use your confirmation bias, turn up your affective filter, and ignore reasonable explanations as to why what you are claiming doesn't necessarily point to a god.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #113 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Say that to the little boys getting diddled by their priests. Say that to the Ugandan homosexuals being put to death for being who they are. Say that to the thousands upon thousands of Africans dying of AIDS. Say that to the families of dead soldiers who had their funerals protested. Say that to the Muslims who just wanted their own house of worship in NYC.

Symbol of good my ass.

You think religion is bad. We get it.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #114 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You think religion is bad. We get it.

And you think gay marriage is bad. And that a mosque near ground zero is bad. And that universal health care is bad. And that taxation in general is bad. And that banking regulations are bad. We get it.
post #115 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Wrong. I have fewer problems with his argument because it's actually reasonable. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there isn't a single shred in favor of some sort of afterlife. The proposition is rather absurd and dismissing it until further evidence is presented is totally fine. Going the step further and saying one knows for sure isn't supported but so isn't my belief that there isn't an invisible dragon in my garage or that 12 foot invisible marshmallow toads go around surreptitiously fucking everyone with their incorporeal camel dicks.

Do I really have to qualify every statement and leave room for the possibility that those serial rapist sugary amphibian-dromedary hybrids have a chance at existing?

Pretending that your fantasy creatures are the same thing as peoples closely held beliefs shows that you have no respect for others beliefs. You have already given yourself an out for even when God is proven to you that you cannot accept him as he does not do what you believe he should. You hold a very selfish position with regards to this and pretend that it is not. My position may also be selfish, but at least I don't deride you and call you an idiot for yours. Others may, but I do not believe I have. I will however deride your decision to mock those that you disagree with. It is a very small person that resorts to that. And I don't think you have always been this way. You have simply given yourself license to do so "because they did it first."
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #116 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And you think gay marriage is bad. And that a mosque near ground zero is bad. And that universal health care is bad. And that taxation in general is bad. And that banking regulations are bad. We get it.

My views on those issues are nowhere near as simplistic as you make them out to be. The same cannot be said for BR's view of religion.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #117 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Pretending that your fantasy creatures are the same thing as peoples closely held beliefs shows that you have no respect for others beliefs...

Those "fantasy creatures" have just as much supporting evidence as any god does. Your insistence on the existence of a god is no less disrespectful to those who can tell the difference between reality and fantasy.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #118 of 204
Some messages of this thread remind of a conversation I had with a Catholic scholar many years ago.

While discussing about the history of relation between science and religion (and more or less agreeing there is no scientific proof of the existence of God), my scholarly friend told me something like:
It has taken us very long time until we discovered the existence of radio waves (in the late XIXth century), perhaps we just havent discovered God, yet.

My reply was, approximately, like this:
Radio waves are supposed to be part of the created universe while God is supposed to be the creator, omniscient and omnipotent and certainly able to decide if He wants to be discovered or not, much unlike radio waves.
So I think that if we have no evidence of His existence (IE we havent discovered Him), its probably either because He doesnt want us to have evidence of His existence, or because He doesnt exist.

We then more or less agreed about the matter of believing being that of freedom of religion, that is the choice of what to believe, and of not to believe (that was a few years after the Vaticans Dignitatis Humanae declaration).

Among modern developed countries, there are several models of relation between religion and the state. The US has no established religion while in the UK the reigning monarch is the head of the Church of England, then theres the French model, the one I prefer, according to which the state is completely and explicitly separated from religion.
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
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« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
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post #119 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Those "fantasy creatures" have just as much supporting evidence as any god does. Your insistence on the existence of a god is no less disrespectful to those who can tell the difference between reality and fantasy.

Really? Disrespectful? How so? Like your ad-hom you have just posted? Or somehow a different type of disrespect? Stop with the insults or I will begin reporting your posts for what they are.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #120 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Really? Disrespectful? How so?

Because you, somehow, feel your beliefs deserve the respect of others. That they deserve the "respect" of people who have looked at the evidence objectively, and can see that there simply ISN'T any supporting evidence.
You certainly wouldn't expect me to be "respectful" of an adult who adamantly claimed that Unicorns or Invisible Dragons or Zeus were real (and that felt I, and the rest of society, should accommodate their beliefs.) They would (properly) be recommended for psychiatric evaluation. Why is it that YOUR god deserves special consideration?

Why is it that YOU can brush off L. Ron Hubbard as "preposterous nonsense" (I'm not quoting you, but if you believe in J. C. Waterwalker, then you MUST feel that way), but I can't call you out for the same thing?
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
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