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Restructuring the pollitical parties

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 
There is a rift in the Republican party over this debt limit, with the tea party portion wanting a balanced budged amendment, and the traditional Republicans only pretending to want one.

Could this cause the party to split? Here are two scenarios that I have been thinking about:

1) The Republican party ejects all the tea party senators and congressmen (or they leave on their own to form a new party run by Palin), while at the same time the "blue dog" democrats join the Republicans.

2) The non-tea party Republicans become democrats, leaving the tea party behind. The leftmost portion of the Democratic party become independents, form their own party, or join the green party in protest.

In either case, we would end up with a three party system - and I think that the financial stress, and ideological polarization will get stronger and stronger until something like this can happen.

Any thoughts?
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post #2 of 11
You must have my kitchen bugged! My wife and I were talking about exactly this topic this morning.

The fact is that political parties have changed a lot over the decades. The labels don't always mean the thing they've meant throughout history. There are both generational differences and regional differences (e.g., a Democrat from Wyoming or Alabama might be more like a Republican and a Republican from certain parts of California, New York or Massachusetts are more like Democrats.)

This is the problem with the labels.

All that said, I could see something like what you're talking about happening...

The so-called Tea Party is trying to inject some fiscal conservatism into the recently (past decade) more spendy Republican party. As you suggest the Blue Dog D's are probably more comfortable in a moderate Republican party.

While I think it would be great to have more choice in politics than the Coke and Pepsi parties, there seem to be structural issues preventing multiple competitive parties from emerging for any length of time. At key transition points in history some new faction (e.g., Tea Party) emerges and shifts the balance around in some way.

What I think would be even better would be less power in the centralized, national government and more choice by region (e.g., states, etc.) One effect of this would be that the power actually vested in the federal government would be less of a concern.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #3 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

There is a rift in the Republican party over this debt limit, with the tea party portion wanting a balanced budged amendment, and the traditional Republicans only pretending to want one.

Could this cause the party to split? Here are two scenarios that I have been thinking about:

1) The Republican party ejects all the tea party senators and congressmen (or they leave on their own to form a new party run by Palin), while at the same time the "blue dog" democrats join the Republicans.

2) The non-tea party Republicans become democrats, leaving the tea party behind. The leftmost portion of the Democratic party become independents, form their own party, or join the green party in protest.

In either case, we would end up with a three party system - and I think that the financial stress, and ideological polarization will get stronger and stronger until something like this can happen.

Any thoughts?

We won't end up with a three party system. Also the Democratic party has several similar possible splits largely along the lines of interest groups with union men, women, blacks and latinos all having very different and often opposing political desires.

The budget debate isn't about balanced budget amendment versus no amendment. It is about a real attempt at a spending cut versus yet another fake one. Any plan that attempts to actually cut spending is being called extremist and associated with terrorism.

This isn't about party because as noted both parties leaders are rearranging the deck chairs in slightly different fashions. This is about the boomer blindspot as I've written before. The utopian 60's vision combined with the belief that the dollar can never be broken is what we are seeing right now. They also refuse to address entitlements because they know as a generation they have screwed themselves and don't want to face reality.

It is an argument about who should kick the can down the road and in one fashion while praying for a miracle to alter the reality that exists.

Moody's


Quote:
The "limited magnitude" of both debt plans put forward by congressional leaders would not put the nation's AAA credit rating back on solid footing, Moody's Investors Service announced Friday.

"Reductions of the magnitude now being proposed, if adopted, would likely lead Moody's to adopt a negative outlook on the AAA rating," the credit rating agency said in a new report. "The chances of a significant improvement in the long-term credit profile of the government coming from deficit reductions of the magnitude proposed in either plan are not high."

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #4 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What I think would be even better would be less power in the centralized, national government and more choice by region (e.g., states, etc.) One effect of this would be that the power actually vested in the federal government would be less of a concern.

I agree. If the federal government has little or no power over the individual, then political parties become much less significant.

Today people are fighting over who gets to use government to force everyone else to do what they want.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #5 of 11
We need a viable left-wing party in the US. We don't have one. The Democrats in the US are centrist. Not even left of center. The right wing in the US are extremist from a world perspective. That's what should be achieved if there's any party restructuring.
post #6 of 11
We have to be careful not to have what happened in Canada though...they have a huge liberal majority but the vote was split and the conservatives took office. Same deal here...last time we had liberals vote for an alternative candidate, Nader got enough liberal votes to make the 2000 election close enough for Bush to steal.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #7 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

We have to be careful not to have what happened in Canada though...they have a huge liberal majority but the vote was split and the conservatives took office. Same deal here...last time we had liberals vote for an alternative candidate, Nader got enough liberal votes to make the 2000 election close enough for Bush to steal.

The Canadian conservative party would be too left wing for the US.

http://www.conservative.ca/party/founding_principles/
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post #8 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

We have to be careful not to have what happened in Canada though...they have a huge liberal majority but the vote was split and the conservatives took office. Same deal here...last time we had liberals vote for an alternative candidate, Nader got enough liberal votes to make the 2000 election close enough for Bush to steal.

Indeed. We need to be sure that any restructuring of political parties ensures that whoever BR wants in office can get into office.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #9 of 11
Again, it's come down to a fight over who gets to use government to force everyone else to do what they want.

It is an authoritarian, statist mindset that is completely opposed to liberty.

Libertarians want to reduce the power of government to the point that we don't have to worry about people using it to force us to live or think a certain way.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #10 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

We need a viable left-wing party in the US. We don't have one. The Democrats in the US are centrist. Not even left of center. The right wing in the US are extremist from a world perspective. That's what should be achieved if there's any party restructuring.

We don't have what other nations might view as a left-wing party because we don't have a substantial number of people that are that left-wing. The US is a center-right country. Therefore, we don't "need" a left-wing party at all.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #11 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

We don't have what other nations might view as a left-wing party because we don't have a substantial number of people that are that left-wing. The US is a center-right country. Therefore, we don't "need" a left-wing party at all.

Until people get educated, let's hope. Or until this "center-right" philosophy drives us into a deeper shit hole than we already are.
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