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Apple seen merging iOS, Mac OS X with custom A6 chip in 2012 - Page 3

post #81 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Emulators in the past have sucked pretty hard. Don't know how it would work this time around but I would be pretty worried.

Rosetta and the 68K emulator on PowerMacs were quite good actually. I don't know how you can say they "sucked pretty hard."
post #82 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by djames4242 View Post

I may be talking about of my butt here, but I don't think Rosetta had as much to do. To run Windows, an emulator has to emulate an entire machine in order to provide a guest OS access to virtual hardware. Rosetta simply had to translate some instructions.

And that's what we're talking about here. An A6 emulating x86 for backward compatibility.
post #83 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbsteph View Post

And people have been panning Windows 8 for merging traditional Windows with touch screen capabilities claiming it can't be done successfully.

You are comparing merging the best OS, OS X and the best mobile OS, iOS with merging what? Microsoft crap? Sorry maybe you were being funny and I missed that.
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post #84 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

I could see this working in a niche product, but for many users Intel CPU's are a must. The virtulisation market is getting bigger all the time.

That was my first though as one who does require VMs but I guess an MBP would still exist with Intel for VMs. Funny thing is I am thinking of getting a 13" Air 256 and would be running VMware, looks like if this rumor has legs it may the last year an Air could be used for that.
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post #85 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

Rosetta and the 68K emulator on PowerMacs were quite good actually. I don't know how you can say they "sucked pretty hard."

Rosetta wasn't an emulator, it was a dynamic binary translator. And I agree that it was quite good.

On the other hand, emulating or translating x86 correctly is orders of magnitude more difficult than what Rosetta had to do with with power pc for lots of reasons including variable length instructions implicit instruction registers, correct interrupt handling, the sheer number of instructions, etc. Particularly as Apple continues to support and use complex extensions to the x86 instruction set.

Transmeta used custom hardware to accelerate x86 translation in their chips and they just couldn't keep up with Intel's process advances. Maybe Apple could graft on a hardware translation accelerator to the A6, but I imagine that Intel owns most of the patents that they would need, given that they purchased Transmeta's IP. Also, Apple wouldn't get an x86 license so probably couldn't do such a thing even if it were unencumbered.

All things are possible over a period of 10 years, but i doubt we'd see Apple trying to translate x86 on a lowish power ARM cpu.
post #86 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Look at it this way:

[...]
Potentially, Thunderbolt offers Apple great flexibility into which devices they place CPUs, GPUs, RAM, HDDs, SSDs, etc.

+1

I'd add one more component to this list: Grand Central.

Is there a reason why a virtualization app has to run on your CPU (and not your GPU, or even an APU?).

In the modern world... how many people need endpoint virtualization? we know now that it's a very small fraction of iOS sales (assuming that app like Citrix Receiver indicate a requirement) use virtualization, and my guess that a similar fraction is on OS X. So why require EVERYONE to buy an Intel processor out of 80Million sales a year, if only 1 million require it at 'native clock' speeds.

Why not just an interface into a 'virtual' virtualization service (with your app and Grand Central deciding where best to home your code/virtPC... CPU, GPU, APU(via PCI or Thunderbolt), Cloud Virtualization).

So 'iOSX' has a x86 virtualization layer that GCs the code to the user's preferred virtualization environment. If you decide to buy an A6/Intel box (Mac Pro, or HE MBP), you're running at clock speeds... if you buy an A6 only box with a GPU... you're running an emulator..., unless you have a icloud Intel server that with your mirrored data 'up there' when you start to your x86 app, it messages into the iCloud and just airplays the interface back to your iPhone.

Again, If I can save $100 on a MBA by using an A6 chip vs a intel chip (and likely get better battery and performance envelope) That's worth it to me.

And for the 520 minutes a year (10 minutes a week) that I need to run that legacy windows app (and at this point, other than pentesting tools, it's IE8 for time keeping ;-), I either suck it up and emulate it with the A6/GPU driven by Grand Central, or I carve out a virtual chunk of the iCloud x86 farm and send all my compute cycles to that airplaying back to me (hey... it's X11 all over again.. where the display is a 'server'!")
post #87 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbsteph View Post

And people have been panning Windows 8 for merging traditional Windows with touch screen capabilities claiming it can't be done successfully.

Windows 8 is a copy of Lion. It's a desktop OS with touch elements overlaid on top, but once you get into legacy apps (which, on the Windows side, will be virtually all programs) you're back to the cursor based UI.

Microsoft is only hailing it as a tablet solution because they don't have one.

Edit: Copy of the concept of Lion, it's implemented a little differently. Didn't mean to imply that they were directly lifting features from Lion (although I wouldn't put it past them).
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post #88 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

Rosetta and the 68K emulator on PowerMacs were quite good actually. I don't know how you can say they "sucked pretty hard."

Did you use Virtual pc for Mac back in the PPC days? I'm assuming you did given your history here.

You DIDN'T think that sucked?
post #89 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbarriault View Post

Why do people assume a merger of iOS and OS X should automatically entail identical UIs? An OS is a lot more than the user interface - they can have a single OS with the same kernel, device drivers, file system, development environment, etc., with a different style of UI depending on device, in very much the exact same way that iOS handles both iPhone and iPad now. There's no reason they can't extend the idea of a universal iOS application to have a different UI for mouse/keyboard interactions too.

Exactly. For instance, the iPad doesn't have the same exact UI as the iPhone, but it is the same OS.

And they could make an iMac that swivels the display down, automatically switching to a LaunchPad-esque iOS interface.


As far as I understand it, under the hood iOS and OS X are not that different. But right now, you can't have a universal app that works across iOS and OS X. One reason is that OS X runs on Intel chips and is 64 bit, while iOS uses ARM chips.
post #90 of 186
This may make some sense, at least for an AIR model, but I don't see it spreading across the whole line anytime soon for the same reasons everyone's exhausted.

However it should be noted that Windows 8 will run natively on ARM architecture, which lends itself to all sorts of possibilities.
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post #91 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Funny thing is I am thinking of getting a 13" Air 256 and would be running VMware, looks like if this rumor has legs it may the last year an Air could be used for that.

Again, how many people need x86 to run VMWare (me, I'm Parallels) effectively? And how many of them (corp types), would probably have a better overall TCO if it was remotely virtualized (Citrix Receiver)?

I really do think the age of 'fat client' is driving to a sudden death with the 'app centric' personal devices.

if you can kill a DVD drive in 2011, maybe the x86 chip as _THE_ CPU in 2013 (apple and/or a 3rd party can always sell you a coprocessor that connected via a ThunderBolt interface a nice 2ghz, 2gbRam unit... the size of a wall wart, $149 no Win7License SheevaPlugPC)! Face it. For 6.9Billion people, WinTel isn't a requirement, it's just the most common way to deliver a text entry/ internet surfing system.
post #92 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

This may make some sense, at least for an AIR model, but I don't see it spreading across the whole line anytime soon for the same reasons everyone's exhausted.

However it should be noted that Windows 8 will run natively on ARM architecture, which lends itself to all sorts of possibilities.

Bootcamp for iOS!
post #93 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post

That's not fair to people with autism. My son has it and can still apply logic and reason far better than this analyst.

Have you seen this:

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/proloquo2go...ry?id=10497862

We have this program on our iPads -- it's amazing!


Now, I wonder if something like this could help someone with autism use a desktop computer -- say, an iMac running Lion OS X interfacing an iPad running iOS
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post #94 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

However it should be noted that Windows 8 will run natively on ARM architecture, which lends itself to all sorts of possibilities.

That's a fair point... but many users run Windows on a Mac so that they can run some custom Windows app or an app that doesn't have a good Mac counterpoint. Many of these small and custom apps may never get a Win 8 ARM port.
post #95 of 186
ARM chip for low power consumption with an x86-64 chip for more demanding tasks = winner.
ARM chip exclusively = meh.

In spite of the performance improvements in ARM chips, current x86 chips from Intel and AMD are still magnitudes more powerful. No matter what Apple does in the A6 I don't see how it could match the current Sandy Bridge processor, let alone Ivy Bridge and whatever else Intel improves. So I don't see it happening, ARM will stay in the iPad and iThings but not in the Macs, unless its the aforementioned switchable hybrid.
post #96 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by pondosinatra View Post

Er.....have you looked at Lion?

Err.. ya. Lion has a Finder. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you purchase, download and install software from anywhere. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you print to virtually any networked printer. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you manage your files and folders the way you want. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you create multiple user accounts and assign each different levels of access. iOS doesn't. Lion supports external drives and optical drives. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you encrypt your files. iOS doesn't. Lion gives you parental controls. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you use the keyboard and pointing device of your choice. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you decide whether or not you want to run Flash. iOS doesn't. Lion supports networking in a heterogeneous environment. iOS doesn't.

Other than that, I can't think of any differences whatsoever.
post #97 of 186
Steve has been spreading these rumors to scare Intel.

He wants to see if he can make Otellini cry.
post #98 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by popnfresh View Post

Lion lets you manage your files and folders the way you want. iOS doesn't.

Explain why you think screwing with the OS files is a good idea in iOS.

Quote:
Lion supports external drives and optical drives. iOS doesn't.

Optical drives. Good one.

Quote:
Lion gives you parental controls. iOS doesn't.

Guess Apple's lying about the parental controls in iOS, then. So you're saying that these switches won't do anything when I turn them on to restrict access to stuff? Huh. Strange. Wonder why they put them in there, then.

Quote:
Lion lets you use the keyboard and pointing device of your choice. iOS doesn't.

LOL at using a mouse on a touchscreen. Any Bluetooth keyboard works with iDevices. USB would be pointless.

Quote:
Lion lets you decide whether or not you want to run Flash. iOS doesn't.

It's not Apple's job to let you make idiotic, device-breaking decisions.

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #99 of 186
When the hardware is powerful enough, when mobile network connections are fast enough and cheap enough, when the cloud computing infrastructure is reliable enough:

You will own a single device, an iPhone 7, say. When you are out and about, it presents the iOS UI on its screen and it works pretty much as a smartphone. When you get home, you can connect it to your monitor, keyboard and other peripherals (perhaps wirelessly, perhaps not) and that opens up the Mac OS functions that you need for large-screen computing (video editing, word processing, software development, etc.). The iPhone becomes a smart trackpad. You can still access the iOS functions though, which is just a subset of the merged OS.

What's the advantage? One computer for all your needs. No need to synch across devices. No need to spend for two or more devices. All your computing needs are with you wherever you go. No such thing as "I left on my computer at home." You want an iPad? Buy the tablet accessory, essentially an LCD screen & battery with a slot where you slide in your iPhone 7. A laptop you say? Buy the laptop accessory and slide in your iPhone 7. You're at the airport and you need to update your keynote presentation but you don't have any of the accessories? Slide your iPhone into the computing kiosks set up for travelers' convenience.

I made this prediction at least a year ago.
post #100 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

I made this prediction at least a year ago.

And Apple made it seventeen years ago. They one-upped you by making a working device that did this. The DuoDock was awesome.

The problem with this dream is technology. It has never been good enough to make it a reality. And it still isn't and won't be for (I'll say) half a decade.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #101 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

. The DuoDock was awesome.
.

I don't know if I've ever met anyone, Apple aficionados anyway, who didn't think that.

I kinda surprised they haven't made an updated version of this. I think it would sell well today.
post #102 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

No offence, but autism and retardation are not related to each other at all.
Also, "retarded" is a perfectly scientific word. There is a big push on lately to have it deleted from our collective lexicon for being offensive but it's not actually in and of itself a pejorative or even a negative remark. It's a shortened form of the technical term "developmentally retarded."

Using todays classifications, many kids that would have formerly been classified as retarded, are now labeled as autistic. However, being diagnosed as autistic does not mean that the person is not retarded. It's believed anywhere from 25-75 percent of autistic people are retarded. The difference is what thresh hold the researches and doctors choose to use. Opinions vary wildly on that one.

In any case, i did not mean to sound like I was offended by the comment. I was not.
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post #103 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcode View Post

Obvious press-seeker is obvious.

Also, by 2089, computers will fly.

Where have you been? Last year my Dell laptop went flying across the room, out the door and onto the sidewalk. It only flew once but that was enough.
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post #104 of 186
I call bull on Apple shifting to ARM processors for their computers. It wouldn't make sense to work with Intel to develop ThunderBolt ports with an exclusive 1-year contract on ThunderBolt-enabled computers just to move away from Intel-based chips a year later.
post #105 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

No offence, but autism and retardation are not related to each other at all.

Also, "retarded" is a perfectly scientific word. There is a big push on lately to have it deleted from our collective lexicon for being offensive but it's not actually in and of itself a pejorative or even a negative remark. It's a shortened form of the technical term "developmentally retarded."

The way it was used in this thread was pejorative. Calling a word perfectly scientific or technical isn't a good reason for a lack of compassion. No word is "actually in and of itself pejorative or negative". Pretty much every time I hear it it's to demean someone by comparing them to someone who is developmentally disabled. If you're cars timing is advanced and running poorly you may need to retard it for proper operation, I get that, but let's maybe try to understand how it can seriously impact people whose challenges are greater than yours and mine might be.
post #106 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by djames4242 View Post

Unix will still be there, it just won't likely be as acceptable. Shame really - one of the reasons I'm able to be so productive with my Mac is because I can make short work of processing tons of files at the command prompt.

Mmmm... Maybe we'll see JailBreaks for the Mac
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post #107 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcode View Post

Hear, hear.

To expand on this, all sorts of things can be retarded - not just developmentally. Engine Retarder Brakes, A music suspension that resolves upward instead of downward (a retardation), Retarded potential in electrodynamics - etc...

It always grinds my gears when people freak out at me for using the most scientifically correct term available.

You have to understand where the objection to the term is coming from. Calling someone 'retarded' is rarely 'scientifically correct'. Mostly it is ignorant, and sometimes hurtful. As a joke its wearing thin for the two previous reasons. I don't think you'll hear the term used professionally in a descriptive way as far as people go. Clearly the word retarded is a word with a specific meaning as you point out, but by the sounds of it you have been mis-using the word.
post #108 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post

Where have you been? Last year my Dell laptop went flying across the room, out the door and onto the sidewalk. It only flew once but that was enough.

Was it a Dell Air?
post #109 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"When 64-bit ARM is available in 2016, we believe Apple will have a single OS and hardware architecture."


That rumor suggested Apple wanted to transition to ARM processors "as soon as possible," likely when 64-bit variations become available at the end of 2012 or by early 2013.

So - which is it? 64bit ARM n 2012/13 or in 2016?
.
post #110 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by popnfresh View Post

Err.. ya. Lion has a Finder. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you purchase, download and install software from anywhere. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you print to virtually any networked printer. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you manage your files and folders the way you want. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you create multiple user accounts and assign each different levels of access. iOS doesn't. Lion supports external drives and optical drives. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you encrypt your files. iOS doesn't. Lion gives you parental controls. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you use the keyboard and pointing device of your choice. iOS doesn't. Lion lets you decide whether or not you want to run Flash. iOS doesn't. Lion supports networking in a heterogeneous environment. iOS doesn't.

Other than that, I can't think of any differences whatsoever.

iOS has parental controls, of sorts.
post #111 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by djames4242 View Post

Unix will still be there, it just won't likely be as acceptable.

Do you mean accessible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Mmmm... Maybe we'll see JailBreaks for the Mac

Something like that will never be needed.

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #112 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post

Steve has been spreading these rumors to scare Intel.

He wants to see if he can make Otellini cry.

Actually, I think Steve wants Intel to be the foundry for the A6 -- some interesting possibilities and problems
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post #113 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I don't know if I've ever met anyone, Apple aficionados anyway, who didn't think that.

I kinda surprised they haven't made an updated version of this. I think it would sell well today.

There is Henge Docks. Never tried them and they seem quite expensive but I have considered them as I find the three connectors between my MBP and my Apple Display clumsy.
post #114 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover2 View Post

The number of customers who use Unix is vanishingly small. OTOH, the number of people who want/need to do common tasks, as easily and efficiently as possible, is HUGE.

Apple is now aiming for the sweet spot, where most of the money is. I expect that their devices will become, over time, easier to use. That is what gives value to the hardware, not the ability for a few geeks to do esoteric tasks.

1.
The two concerns here are not exclusive, Apple can do easy while keeping UNIX accessible. The fact is underneath iOS devices have a lot, but not all of that goodness that is UNIX.

2.
I think you underestimate the intelligence of many MacOS users. Those UNIX under pinnings are. Often put to good use.
post #115 of 186
Jobs has stated that Apple will only work on two OS's at a time. So if they can eventually merge iOS and OSX into one OS, than Apple can work on creating a true web/cloud based OS with icloud that could offset any short comings ios/osx would have.
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post #116 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobersonGabriel View Post

I just paid $22.87 for an iPad2-64GB and my girlfriend loves her Panasonic Lumix GF 1 Camera that we got for $38.76 there arriving tomorrow by UPS. I will never pay such expensive retail prices in stores again. Especially when I also sold a 40 inch LED TV to my boss for $675 which only cost me $62.81 to buy. Here is the website we use to get it all from, BidsOut.com

Ban hammer?

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post #117 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiles77 View Post

ARM might solve the battery life problem. 3-4 hours isn't good enough for the 11" Air.

Or allowing more space for the battery. My 15" MBP i7 gets well over 8 hours.

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post #118 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by neilw View Post

While I agree with much of the sentiment of your post, classifying iPhone and iPad as "small, niche embedded devices" is shortsighted. Mobile devices are taking over computing. The transition may take a while, but it's underway. We are headed for the day when heavyweight desktop and laptop products will be the "niche devices".

which is why I clairifed what was meant by the term "niche."

No shortsightedness here.

mobile devices are not "taking over computing." they are simply used much more frequently for menial and casual tasks. Are they taking over the "little things?" sure. It's simply more convenient.

but for actual computing, be it typing a document, graphic design, video editing, audio work, financial systems, etc. a "real" computer is required.

Mobile devices with added power are great because of this fact: They are GAINING features.

Desktops and notebooks are great because they are also always GAINING capabilities, which they already have in spades over mobile devices.

Apple is currently on a trend of artificially introducing a convenience by dumbing down the Mac, which is ridiculous. They are missing the boat here. sure, there will be some things that makes sense to crossover. then do that. but don't cripple the mac, just so the marketing team can put the money making iPhone next to the MBP on the website homepage...

Mobile device will always be a device that we use for the convenient little things. It makes sense that we use them more and certain things are integrated. But they will never be a replacement for a desktop or notebook.

People buy a laptop and keep it for many years. People replace their phone every year or so. that's how Nokia sold so many handsets and it is also selling tons of iPhones.

the sales are not due to a better OS or a trend in taking over computing. They are due to different dynamics in how various devices, however integrated, are used, discarded, and purchased.

The Mac should always be the definitive, "you can do anything, do it right, and do it easily" platform. Mobile devices may be used a lot (especially where phone calls are concerned... - or casual gaming, or fun apps, etc, but they will always be a "niche" in terms of real computing.

there are some benefits to a hyper mobile platform and there are some to a station, mobile or otherwise. the point is that , while the mobile is being upgraded, it is a horrible thing to cripple the superior platform just to make the mobile platform look better, which is most certainly the trend here. And FCP X is just the beginning. "hey, let's take the iPhone version of iMovie, sell it on the Mac and call it Final Cut Pro!" no thanks.

(And yes, I am aware that FCP X is far greater than the iOS iMovie. LOL.. But it is an obvious bow to that software and it's platform and is also an obvious warning sign of what happens when apple engineers follow that philosophy.
post #119 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Do you mean accessible?



Something like that will never be needed.

Yeah... just joking.


But there is a missing link between the openness of OS X and the closeness of iOS.

It's been a while since I JallBroke an iDevice (AIR an ATV1). But remember the feeling of power being able to navigate the iOS file system and manipulate files with FCP and SSH.

Anyway, maybe someone could write (or already has written) a terminal program that runs on an iPad -- it'd be kinda' fun to mess around with the CLI on the device, itself!

Anyway, if Apple introduces devices with a combined OS -- I would expect that there would be a way for those who want/need to manipulate it at the CLI level.
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post #120 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post

The way it was used in this thread was pejorative. Calling a word perfectly scientific or technical isn't a good reason for a lack of compassion. No word is "actually in and of itself pejorative or negative". Pretty much every time I hear it it's to demean someone by comparing them to someone who is developmentally disabled. If you're cars timing is advanced and running poorly you may need to retard it for proper operation, I get that, but let's maybe try to understand how it can seriously impact people whose challenges are greater than yours and mine might be.

Is it OK to call a fellow commenter a pompous windbag?
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