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Most Muslim Americans See No Justification for Violence

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
Muslim Americans are the staunchest opponents of military attacks on civilians, compared with members of other major religious groups Gallup has studied in the United States. Seventy-eight percent of Muslim Americans say military attacks on civilians are never justified.

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Full report





Assuming this information is true, I think it's important to ask ourselves why Western governments are demonizing a group of people that is least likely to support or justify violence.

From a Mormon libertarian perspective, I have to say I'm very, very disappointed and surprised that of all the groups represented, Mormons had the highest percentage of respondents who said that it is sometimes justified for the military to target and kill civilians. In light of our history, we, of all people, should be keenly aware of the horrific results of State violence and aggression committed against innocents.

Yet, on the other hand, Mormons had the next highest percentage of respondents after Muslims who said it is never justified for an individual or a small group of persons to target and kill civilians.

Puzzling.

And overall, way too many people believe violence is sometimes justified if it's committed by the State. Why do we allow the State to do things that we know would be wrong if we did them ourselves?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2 of 25
One can't help but wonder whether or not the fact that Muslims, in recent years, have been the recipient of a fair amount of civilians casualties as a result of military actions might be influencing this poll.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #3 of 25
[neocon] damage control!! Damage control!! [/neocon]
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #4 of 25
Another thing from the report-

"In view of the developments since we first sent our troops to Iraq, do you think the United States made a mistake in sending troops to Iraq, or not?

Muslim- 83%

Protestant- 45%

Catholic- 49%

Jewish- 74%

Mormon- 32%

No religion/Atheist/Agnostic- 67%"

Don't be too angry about me drawing attention to this jazzguru, I thought it was quite gracious of you to draw attention earlier to Mormons in the poll.



Slightly off topic, but does anyone here think it's really necessary for the US to spend so much on it's military?

I saw a graph earlier (this one- http://media.economist.com/sites/def...611_WOC883.gif ) that puts America's spending up against some of the worlds other largest economies. Mostly economies that are spending much higher percentages on renewable energy than the US.

The top three biggest economies after the US are China, Japan and Germany. They have between them, the same $14.7 trillion dollar GDP as the US.. You can see from the graph how much less they spend. The EU now has a GDP nearing $17 trillion and yet it's military budget is tiny in comparison to the US's.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Don't be too angry about me drawing attention to this jazzguru, I thought it was quite gracious of you to draw attention earlier to Mormons in the poll.

Not at all, Hands. The results are what they are and it's important to see them and learn from them (assuming they are true and accurate).

It just comes back to this mentality that even if it's morally wrong for you to do something as an individual (like murder, plunder, etc.), adding the mystical "authority" of the State somehow legitimizes it.

The scary thing is that a few short years ago I probably would have voted along with the majority of Mormons in this study.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #6 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Not at all, Hands. The results are what they are and it's important to see them and learn from them (assuming they are true and accurate).

It just comes back to this mentality that even if it's morally wrong for you to do something as an individual (like murder, plunder, etc.), adding the mystical "authority" of the State somehow legitimizes it.

The scary thing is that a few short years ago I probably would have voted along with the majority of Mormons in this study.

Isn't there another "authority" that is even more "mystical" than the state that legitimizes all sorts of hatred? I forget what it's called. Oh wait, yeah, now I remember. Religion.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #7 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Isn't there another "authority" that is even more "mystical" than the state that legitimizes all sorts of hatred? I forget what it's called. Oh wait, yeah, now I remember. Religion.


"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #8 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Isn't there another "authority" that is even more "mystical" than the state that legitimizes all sorts of hatred? I forget what it's called. Oh wait, yeah, now I remember. Religion.

Which religion(s) "legitimizes all sorts of hatred?" Hatred of what?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #9 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Not at all, Hands. The results are what they are and it's important to see them and learn from them (assuming they are true and accurate).

It just comes back to this mentality that even if it's morally wrong for you to do something as an individual (like murder, plunder, etc.), adding the mystical "authority" of the State somehow legitimizes it.

The scary thing is that a few short years ago I probably would have voted along with the majority of Mormons in this study.

Perhaps that Mormonism was founded in the US draws a particular kind of follower, one that's more American-centric and possibly thereby more rigidly patriotic?



Perhaps the biggest difference between certain individuals or groups and governments is that we often know people who have fought in wars for our country, giving us a blinkered, tribal if you will, view of our governments actions?
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #10 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Perhaps that Mormonism was founded in the US draws a particular kind of follower, one that's more American-centric and possibly thereby more rigidly patriotic?



Perhaps the biggest difference between certain individuals or groups and governments is that we often know people who have fought in wars for our country, giving us a blinkered, tribal if you will, view of our governments actions?

I was actually thinking about that. Mormons believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was able to be restored when and where it was because of the environment of religious freedom in the United States. So in that respect, we have a great sense of gratitude for this country and for the principles upon which it was founded. This can, in turn, foster a great sense of patriotism (even in spite of the fact that Mormons were treated so poorly by the State in the past).

Most of them believe as I once did: that we are fighting a just and honorable war against tyranny and oppression. It doesn't even enter their minds that we could be just as guilty of the tyranny and oppression we claim to be fighting.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #11 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Which religion(s) "legitimizes all sorts of hatred?" Hatred of what?

You're a laugh riot.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #12 of 25
This study's findings are not surprising. Muslim Americans tend to very peace-oriented. There are very few who embrace violence against civilians, especially through jihad. In fact, I'd argue that number is miniscule.

That being said, the number of non-American Muslims that either support or at least tolerate violence against civilians is demonstrably higher. This is the very problem we face.

Also...one more caveat: I think it's possible that many respondents (or at least a significant number) claim to oppose civilian violence, but at the same time at least passively support Palestinian terror attacks...at least on Israeli's military. I think there is also a lot of support for groups that at least indirectly support terrorism.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You're a laugh riot.

Are you going answer the question?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Muslim Americans are the staunchest opponents of military attacks on civilians, compared with members of other major religious groups Gallup has studied in the United States. Seventy-eight percent of Muslim Americans say military attacks on civilians are never justified.

Looking at the full report, it's sort of a puff poll.

Quote:
Assuming this information is true, I think it's important to ask ourselves why Western governments are demonizing a group of people that is least likely to support or justify violence.

True? Polls are never the truth. There are an opinion snapshot.

Quote:
From a Mormon libertarian perspective, I have to say I'm very, very disappointed and surprised that of all the groups represented, Mormons had the highest percentage of respondents who said that it is sometimes justified for the military to target and kill civilians. In light of our history, we, of all people, should be keenly aware of the horrific results of State violence and aggression committed against innocents.

Yet, on the other hand, Mormons had the next highest percentage of respondents after Muslims who said it is never justified for an individual or a small group of persons to target and kill civilians.

Puzzling.

Perhaps different groups define civilians differently or perhaps it is easy to answer whatever you want when answering about a generality on a poll.

Quote:
And overall, way too many people believe violence is sometimes justified if it's committed by the State. Why do we allow the State to do things that we know would be wrong if we did them ourselves?

This poll is only with regard to these religions and within the United States. People here trust the state more and are increasingly dependent on it. A much more interesting poll would be opinions about what the state can enforce and with what mechanism using something less than death. Should you receive prison for circumcising your child as an example.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Are you going answer the question?

Are you so blinded by faith?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Are you so blinded by faith?

I asked because in my personal experience through my entire life in all of the churches I've attended (my own, my friends, my parents, etc.), in the various events, retreats and bible studies I've attended...never once...never have I ever heard or seen anything in those that has ever said or done anything that "legitimizes all sorts of hatred." Not even close.

So, since you've made this rather broad, general, blanket claim that religion "legitimizes all sorts of hatred," I was curious if you would elaborate and provide more detail and provide evidence in support of this claim.

I guess you're not going to.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I asked because in my personal experience through my entire life in all of the churches I've attended (my own, my friends, my parents, etc.), in the various events, retreats and bible studies I've attended...never once...never have I ever heard or seen anything in those that has ever said or done anything that "legitimizes all sorts of hatred." Not even close.

So, since you've made this rather broad, general, blanket claim that religion "legitimizes all sorts of hatred," I was curious if you would elaborate and provide more detail and provide evidence in support of this claim.

I guess you're not going to.

You've studied the bible and haven't seen the hate? (Note: I'm just asking you all sorts of questions like you do to everyone else. It hasn't been twenty replies yet so I can't give a semi-direct answer yet.)

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You've studied the bible and haven't seen the hate?

Are you going to answer my question?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You've studied the bible and haven't seen the hate? (Note: I'm just asking you all sorts of questions like you do to everyone else. It hasn't been twenty replies yet so I can't give a semi-direct answer yet.)

He forgot about the Crusades. Not in the bible but it is connected to religion.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

He forgot about the Crusades. Not in the bible but it is connected to religion.

So were the 9/11 terrorists. So what? MJ and BR are not arguing about people that commit violence in the name of religion. They are arguing about what's in the bible and what is taught through churches. MJ states that he hasn't seen hatred. BR, due to his "study" of religion for many years, disagrees. And you're missing the point as per usual procedure.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #21 of 25
This reminds me of a story.

One of my very best friends is ex-military. Cop. Republican. Loves his guns. Hates immigrants. And he's Mexican. His family several generations ago migrated to California before the state became a part of the United States. Needless to say his bloodline has been here for a very long time.

During the "911 Mosque" controversy I asked him a very blunt question -- "If the United States went to war with Mexico how would I know that he'd be a loyal American?" Of course this question threw him off guard. How dare anyone question his Americanism! So I explained my question, "Are you Mexcian?" Yes. "Did you your family here before this area became the United States?" Yes. "So how do I know you would be a loyal American and fight for your country if we went to war with Mexico? How do I know you wouldn't switch sides?" BECAUSE I'M AN AMERICAN YOU ASSHOLE! Was his curt response.

And that's when I said, "The guy down the street who was born here who happens to be a Muslim.... he believes he's an American too. But what you're telling him is you don't trust his motivations because he goes to a mosque instead of church."
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #22 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

This reminds me of a story.

One of my very best friends is ex-military. Cop. Republican. Loves his guns. Hates immigrants. And he's Mexican. His family several generations ago migrated to California before the state became a part of the United States. Needless to say his bloodline has been here for a very long time.

During the "911 Mosque" controversy I asked him a very blunt question -- "If the United States went to war with Mexico how would I know that he'd be a loyal American?" Of course this question threw him off guard. How dare anyone question his Americanism! So I explained my question, "Are you Mexcian?" Yes. "Did you your family here before this area became the United States?" Yes. "So how do I know you would be a loyal American and fight for your country if we went to war with Mexico? How do I know you wouldn't switch sides?" BECAUSE I'M AN AMERICAN YOU ASSHOLE! Was his curt response.

And that's when I said, "The guy down the street who was born here who happens to be a Muslim.... he believes he's an American too. But what you're telling him is you don't trust his motivations because he goes to a mosque instead of church."

The guy down the street either is an American citizen or he is not. He is not one because he believes he is one.

Your friend's response was curt because he has American citizenship. Why would he go fight for and be loyal to a country to which he has no legal ties?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #23 of 25
I agree with you Trump.

But that's not the rhetoric being bandied about, is it?

ALL muslims are bundled together into one monolithic group and painted with a large brush. If that community center being built a few blocks from ground zero was being built by Americans for Americans then there shouldn't have been a problem. But we know how that ultimately turned out.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #24 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I agree with you Trump.

But that's not the rhetoric being bandied about, is it?

ALL muslims are bundled together into one monolithic group and painted with a large brush. If that community center being built a few blocks from ground zero was being built by Americans for Americans then there shouldn't have been a problem. But we know how that ultimately turned out.

Actually you missed out on that discussion but it isn't just about muslim's or ground zero. Find for me a Walmart in NY City.

The reality is that when you take a populist perspective and attempt to manipulate it, it isn't going to follow the law, reasoning or logic. NY City didn't want a muslim community center a few blocks from ground zero. They also haven't allowed a single Walmart in the city. I guess all Walmarts must be Muslim owned per that reasoning.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #25 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Actually you missed out on that discussion but it isn't just about muslim's or ground zero. Find for me a Walmart in NY City.

The reality is that when you take a populist perspective and attempt to manipulate it, it isn't going to follow the law, reasoning or logic. NY City didn't want a muslim community center a few blocks from ground zero. They also haven't allowed a single Walmart in the city. I guess all Walmarts must be Muslim owned per that reasoning.

Now you're just being silly.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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