or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Inside iCloud: Apple's new Documents & Data cloud service
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Inside iCloud: Apple's new Documents & Data cloud service - Page 2

post #41 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyo View Post

"Just works" is fine when it does.

A week or two ago, in order to try out iWork.com, I had to change the email address attached to my AppleID, because the old address (in Japan) is defunct now that we live in Washington, and iWork.com needed to send me a confirmation email. So I did.

Looked fine, until 3-4 days ago, when the App Store (or one of those quasi-cloudy Apple network things) challenged me to confirm my payment details (this was for free updates to free iOS software "bought" through that account). I cannot find any way to get past this challenge, no matter what variations I try in filling the form.

Sent email to iTunes support, got back a response, that, though pleasant and thoughtful, ultimately said "if you're not able to fix it without our further help, we won't either". Then they suggest PayPal accounts (don't want one, too much of my info is public already), or iTunes Store Gift Cards as the "solution". Have already spent about 4 hours on this, not looking forward to going through all of Support's suggestions. Something like this has happened 3 times in past, IIRC. Since I had no money at stake in past, I just abandoned the old account and created a new one.

But think about their "final solutions": if I can't get back into my account, I can't update either bought or free Apps. Probably can't reload any Purchased music I happen to mislay. Not sure if Home Sharing will stop working (I haven't really used it much), or Genius, etc. Can't update Xcode next time around. Probably can't Find My Iphone, and even if I can, may not be able to add new devices to the coven.

My thought on iCloud: there are two agendas, one for you and one for Apple.

Yours: keep all your stuff available to all your devices and safe "for all time".

Apple's: "Monetize" you.

If the agendas stop matching up well--as in it's too much work for Tech Support to restore your account, or Apple decides to drop some iCloud service and leave you hanging, or they start charging for something that used to be free, or charge more than before for something--they win, you lose. Probably no recourse.

Of course, none of that would ever happen.

Hmmm. Interesting issues you raise there.

On the username front, depending on which Apple service I use (I now can't keep track, tbh, so I try both), it kicks it back either when using myname@me.com or myname@mac.com. A tad frustrating.
post #42 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabohn View Post

Photostream is no apparent replacement for the current Gallery. I can't see any reason why I would automatically want my photos uploaded to the cloud. I prefer to choose, and the current method looks like it takes away choice. Can your photo stream be organized into albums? Can you share photos or albums with someone else?

Unless Apple is withholding more info on this feature, this is a big step back.

I agree, it doesn't replace gallery in any way. It's also not a syncing service like the rest of iCloud apps use because it's only syncing a small subset of what's possible. It appears to be quite a simple service. It'll work great for me and my wife - so that she takes a photo and I see it on my phone, and vice versa. But no albums etc. And of course we will be forced to use the same AppleID to achieve this.

We really use gallery extensively between my parents and us and for other purposes. I need to purchase Flickr now to see how well that replicates that - it looks like it'll be fine, not sure about videos in the gallery though.

I'd very much like to sync albums, faces, and all that. It wouldn't require my whole iPhoto library in the cloud, just a record of the photo organisation, and copies of newest photos (and perhaps altered photos). I don't think we'll see that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyo View Post

"Do I trust them?
Just works" is fine when it does.

This is the ultimate question. I have 2 answers
1) Time will tell, nothing else.
2) If I can back it all up to a local disk, and see what I've backed up, I'll be quite happy with that.

iDisk was similar - I never had a problem, but I wanted to be able to back up via Time Machine. Then I'd have a copy on the cloud, a local sync, and a backup on my Time Machine disk... but it didn't allow that (just a backup of the whole iDisk image, so you couldn't browse all files - unless things changed and I missed it). Drop Box folders do of course backup on Time Machine too.
post #43 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by LighteningKid View Post

"Patheticity"? I call shenanigans.

Seems cromulent to me.
post #44 of 112
Makes me wonder if there will be an iDisk-like option. One of the reasons I'm averse to the MacBook Airs is the compromise on storage capacity. It would be great if we could have a bulk storage directory in the service where we could access files that we may not otherwise have space for on the local drive. Or rather, we would have space for them but not for a whole folder of audio or video files, for example.
post #45 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by shen View Post

I have only attempted to use it 4 times, 3 different machines. Each time it accepts the files I wish to share, and then promptly deletes them. Since the files where effectively moved rather than copied, the work was lost.

Maybe dropbox is all kinds of wonderful, but it has never worked for me yet, and it didn't look like it needed a lot of setup, so i just don't see how I could have messed it up. You drop a file into it, right? And then it is eaten like the missing socks. Biggest POS since windows ME in my testing...

The stars must been really had it out for you that day. This is the first time that I heard of somebody loosing files with Dropbox. In contrast to that I have heard dozens of times of people not being able to access their iDisk (or just painstakingly slow).
post #46 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider Daniel Eran Dilger View Post

This isn't just a network-synced iDisk. Instead. each app that opts in to the iCloud Documents & Data feature is accorded a secure storage space of its own, just as iOS apps each live in their own secure sandbox, inaccessible from other apps. Using iCloud-aware apps therefore won't eat up users' free storage on iCloud, just as Photo Stream or iTunes' media, apps and iBooks use won't count against the free 5GB of storage every iCloud user gets.

Huh?
Steve Jobs said pretty explicitly that the data stored by apps in the cloud counts towards the 5GB storage. He said Photo Stream didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Numbers (and other iCloud-aware apps) on Mac and iOS should all work alike, although I do have questions about file management. (You have your docs in folders on the Mac, and organize them at will... how does that work on iOS? I’m guessing your iPad/iPhone just shows ALL your Numbers documents in one searchable view, and it doesn’t matter where exactly on the Mac they may be?)

Interesting question. It would be cool if every Numbers document on your computer was automatically on the iPad, but I haven't read anything indicating it works with files not being managed by an app. I'd assume at best there'd be that dual role, like we see in iTunes (where it stores the songs in its own way, but it's accessible in a round about way.

As such, whether an app has hierarchical folders etc would be entirely up to the app too.
post #47 of 112
I'm leery of this documents and data stuff, especially when someone says "it just happens." It sounds like I lose control of my files. Where does the file go? I need things to go where I want them to go. For example, today I conducted a funeral. There are several files necessary for that funeral, all stored in the same folder. I look in "church," then open the folder for the specific church, then there is a folder for liturgies, which has several folders, such as weddings, funerals, baptisms, and look in Funerals. In this case, there are seventeen folders in Funerals, one for each funeral, with a naming convention of year, month, last name, initial. So if John Smith's funeral took place in August 2011, it's in a folder called "2011-08 Smith, J" This file structure is exactly the same on both my MacBook Pro and my iMac. If files get put in the wrong place, I'll never find them. I need to find the files associated with a specific funeral, not the files that are similar to each other in all funerals.

Church:Name of Church:Liturgies:Funerals:2011-08 Smith, J ==contains all the files for that funeral.

Now suppose I create a file for John Smith's funeral on my MacBook Pro and put it in the proper folder. Where is it going to show up on the iMac? And if I edit it on the iPad, will it go to the right place, or is everything going to be thrown into chaos unless I stay with SugarSync?

Should I welcome or dread the advent of Documents and Data? I'm not sure.
post #48 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panu View Post

Should I welcome or dread the advent of Documents and Data? I'm not sure.

In Apple's iCloud model, I don't think there's any room for storing multiple file types (from different apps) in a single folder. I'm expecting that basically an app saves all it's data in its own Library file, which Lion now hides from us (but can be accessed with a little effort)... but I don't know that!

edit: My biggest concern is related too - how do I share files with other people? How does my iPad pages document interact with my Mac's shared/server folder?
post #49 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabohn View Post

Photostream is no apparent replacement for the current Gallery. I can't see any reason why I would automatically want my photos uploaded to the cloud. I prefer to choose, and the current method looks like it takes away choice. Can your photo stream be organized into albums? Can you share photos or albums with someone else?

Unless Apple is withholding more info on this feature, this is a big step back.

The whole thing is a big step back. Auto-save prohibits the user from making any test version of a contract or document, the Apple way is to save everything, make multiple versions and eat, eat, eat up disk space to sell, sell, sell more via iCloud.

So, you inadvertently make a mistake on a document and iCloud whisks it away, forcing the error-laden doc to all of your instruments.

I've been fighting in Pages with this boneheaded auto-save el crapo rio system for 2 weeks now, and I have to admit, this is the one and only thing Apple has ever done (since my first Mac in 1985) that I truly, truly find distasteful. It has created so much work for me, it's been frigging brutal.
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
post #50 of 112
Okay, if a document is created by one app, is managed by that app, and accessible to all version of that app - be they on your Mac or iOS 5 device - this system sounds heavenly & would be tremendously useful. But what if you have files that you want to be able to manipulate from a variety of apps? The value of a filesystem (beyond user defined organization) is that I can decide in what software to open & edit my files. Sometimes a JPG is treated like just a photo, sometimes like a document, and sometimes both ... in different programs with different features sets. Does the sandboxed iCloud make an allowance for these cases? So far I'm not reading anything to lead me to believe that it will.

I guess this is my mental stumbling block based on what is public knowledge so far. Perhaps there is a clearer explanation coming. But lately I feel Apple is sacrificing power user features in order to over-simplify everything. I am all for Apple setting the simplest way as the default behavior within the OS & various apps but they're actually removing some more powerful options because they think the majority find them confusing. As a long time Apple user who caught their vision MANY years ago this is starting to concern me. Make things easy for those that need it, yes absolutely. I welcome the switchers and those in the glow of the halo effect into the fold. But don't start treating all of us like Mac newbies who can't appreciate the value of a filesystem or other somewhat 'complicated' concepts.
post #51 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

Huh?

Interesting question. It would be cool if every Numbers document on your computer was automatically on the iPad, but I haven't read anything indicating it works with files not being managed by an app.

As such, whether an app has hierarchical folders etc would be entirely up to the app too.

I thought every Numbers document would be 'synced' automatically (or maybe there would be an opt-in, ie, the first time you open a given Numbers document after iCloud goes live it would ask you whether you want to store it in iCloud).
post #52 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by MADSCI3NCE View Post

Okay, if a document is created by one app, is managed by that app, and accessible to all version of that app - be they on your Mac or iOS 5 device - this system sounds heavenly & would be tremendously useful. But what if you have files that you want to be able to manipulate from a variety of apps? The value of a filesystem (beyond user defined organization) is that I can decide in what software to open & edit my files. Sometimes a JPG is treated like just a photo, sometimes like a document, and sometimes both ... in different programs with different features sets. Does the sandboxed iCloud make an allowance for these cases? So far I'm not reading anything to lead me to believe that it will.

I do not believe that an application in Lion that will use iCloud is actually bypassing the file system. No iWork application on Lion currently has its own document managing system (the iLife applications do, iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, Garageband, though with the last three is not a document management, more a project management). And I don't believe iWork apps will gain such document management systems. In iTunes and iPhoto, the whole browsing and metadata aspect requires their own infrastructure. To add this to iWork is not a trivial thing. If Apple had any intention of doing so we would have heard about any of the user interface for this by now.

I firmly believe that iCloud (for iWork documents) will simply list all Numbers documents that have been opted in (or not opted out). It will not touch or alter your document location. Naturally synced documents have to be place somewhere on a target Mac and thus there will be a default location but you will be free to move the files around and Numbers will keep track of them.

Of course, synching folders with multiple document types won't work (ie, the folders themselves won't get synced only the files in it, unless Apple adds the enclosing folders name as file metadata). But does this mean no iCloud (ie, status quo) is better than an iCloud that at least syncs your iWork documents, even if syncing your loose jpeg files is still your responsibility?

Quote:
But lately I feel Apple is sacrificing power user features in order to over-simplify everything. I am all for Apple setting the simplest way as the default behavior within the OS & various apps but they're actually removing some more powerful options because they think the majority find them confusing.

You realise that Apple is taking away nothing, zero, zilch of the existing options? It just adds options. What you don't like is that you welcome the idea of iCloud and would like to use it, but it being so seamless just makes it obvious what is (still) missing from it.
post #53 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

The whole thing is a big step back. Auto-save prohibits the user from making any test version of a contract or document, the Apple way is to save everything, make multiple versions and eat, eat, eat up disk space to sell, sell, sell more via iCloud.

So, you inadvertently make a mistake on a document and iCloud whisks it away, forcing the error-laden doc to all of your instruments.

I've been fighting in Pages with this boneheaded auto-save el crapo rio system for 2 weeks now, and I have to admit, this is the one and only thing Apple has ever done (since my first Mac in 1985) that I truly, truly find distasteful. It has created so much work for me, it's been frigging brutal.

Well, if it does not work for you, switch it off, nobody is forcing you to use it (or iCloud).
post #54 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

I don't understand what is so difficult about Dropbox. It is a folder, that. is. the. same. on. all. computers/devices.

Agreed, I find Dropbox wonderfully easy to use. I just don't want to pay them in addition to just recently (before the iCloud announcement) paid for Mobile Me.

The only things it seems missing for me (iCloud) is the gallery, that was a fast way to put previews of photo shoots up for clients and the filesharing aspect (I need to share more than just documents). I can recreate both of those using Wordpress.(installed up on my Godaddy server space which is huge) I decided to go to MobileMe for the mail, I was using Gmail because of the IMAP function, but got really disgusted with the whole system, and feeling like everything I was doing was being watched. Now the iCloud service will give me the email for free, the rest I can work out and there is always Dropbox, just wished they had a level that was below the $99 a year, I use it, but not so much I need another hundred dollar a year service.
post #55 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

The whole thing is a big step back. Auto-save prohibits the user from making any test version of a contract or document, the Apple way is to save everything, make multiple versions and eat, eat, eat up disk space to sell, sell, sell more via iCloud.

So, you inadvertently make a mistake on a document and iCloud whisks it away, forcing the error-laden doc to all of your instruments.

I've been fighting in Pages with this boneheaded auto-save el crapo rio system for 2 weeks now, and I have to admit, this is the one and only thing Apple has ever done (since my first Mac in 1985) that I truly, truly find distasteful. It has created so much work for me, it's been frigging brutal.


First of all, it does not save versions as full documents requiring a massive memory commitment. A version is a virtual document, constructed from change pointers invisible to the user and taking very little extra space. And it does not "whisk away" anything.

The fact that you CAN retrieve any version of your document is of no significance whatever if you do not actually do it--no added work, and little cost in space vs. the benefit of being able to see old versions if you need to.
post #56 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

Well, if it does not work for you, switch it off, nobody is forcing you to use it (or iCloud).

You can't switch off Auto-Save or Versions. Those are the problems. They need work, they need much more thought behind them, and they need a way to OPT OUT.

It's truly bad practice to have multiple saved versions of confidential documents floating around, pinned to some text app. It's plainly ridiculous.

And as it goes forward, multiplying one version upon another, ad infinitum, storage space gets gobbled up at an alarming rate. Oh, wait a minute, isn't there somebody out there who wants to sell me more storage space? Whew! What a relief!!
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
post #57 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

You can't switch off Auto-Save or Versions. Those are the problems. They need work, they need much more thought behind them, and they need a way to OPT OUT.

It's truly bad practice to have multiple saved versions of confidential documents floating around, pinned to some text app. It's plainly ridiculous.

And as it goes forward, multiplying one version upon another, ad infinitum, storage space gets gobbled up at an alarming rate. Oh, wait a minute, isn't there somebody out there who wants to sell me more storage space? Whew! What a relief!!


I do not understand. Do you object to Time Machine? It reveals multiple saved versions of all your documents.

And Versioning does not gobble storage space at the rate that you imagine. The versions are not saved as full documents, simply the history of the changes. The problems you describe are not in the product itself.
post #58 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lochias View Post

First of all, it does not save versions as full documents requiring a massive memory commitment. A version is a virtual document, constructed from change pointers invisible to the user and taking very little extra space. And it does not "whisk away" anything.

The fact that you CAN retrieve any version of your document is of no significance whatever if you do not actually do it--no added work, and little cost in space vs. the benefit of being able to see old versions if you need to.

I never said it saved versions as full documents. I've watched daily over the past 2 weeks how auto-save eats my storage space. Multiple versions of very large documents (1.2GB or more) take up room, even if they're just layers. It's well optimized I think (except for the constant spinning beachball) ... but it still absolutely requires additional space that previously stayed free. I wish it could be disabled.

In my practice, I work on 60-90 contracts a month, often implementing 30-40 changes per document, per day. That's a lot of conference calls, and a lot of words & terms changing.

Dealing with auto-save & versioning is a nightmare. Try sifting thru 2,400 versions of a contract and figure out which one word changed when. It can't be done, I'm telling you. The system is idiotic. The problem dwells in the OS's new demands that when a window is closed, the document gets saved. Documents that no one wants to be saved - test cases, experiments, temporary template alterations - all get implemented, and data is over-written. The system is destroying data.

I suppose if you're in Eighth Grade, you'll be delighted with auto-save when banging out your book report in between giggling text messages & Justin Bieber tracks. In business, having unwanted versions of confidential documents floating about, saved in some app is just really bad practice.
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
post #59 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabohn View Post

Photostream is no apparent replacement for the current Gallery. I can't see any reason why I would automatically want my photos uploaded to the cloud. I prefer to choose, and the current method looks like it takes away choice. Can your photo stream be organized into albums? Can you share photos or albums with someone else?

Unless Apple is withholding more info on this feature, this is a big step back.

I think you're misunderstanding the feature. Your most recent 1000 photos are visible on all your devices. Any that you like and want to keep should be moved into albums, and those will also be visible on all your devices (and, I believe, can be shared). The photostream just avoids the step of manually moving the new photos.
post #60 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

I never said it saved versions as full documents. I've watched daily over the past 2 weeks how auto-save eats my storage space. Multiple versions of very large documents (1.2GB or more) take up room, even if they're just layers. It's well optimized I think (except for the constant spinning beachball) ... but it still absolutely requires additional space that previously stayed free. I wish it could be disabled.

In my practice, I work on 60-90 contracts a month, often implementing 30-40 changes per document, per day. That's a lot of conference calls, and a lot of words & terms changing.

Dealing with auto-save & versioning is a nightmare. Try sifting thru 2,400 versions of a contract and figure out which one word changed when. It can't be done, I'm telling you. The system is idiotic. The problem dwells in the OS's new demands that when a window is closed, the document gets saved. Documents that no one wants to be saved - test cases, experiments, temporary template alterations - all get implemented, and data is over-written. The system is destroying data.

Pages '08 seems to work fine for me on Lion and certainly does not save versions, as should any version of Pages '09 except the very latest. If the new version does not work for you, just don't use it (which applies to OS versions as well) in particular if you really need your computer for work.
post #61 of 112
Daniel - it's the weekend, and this isn't a breaking story. How did these ungrammatic and dys-syntactic monsterpieces of journalism get by you and your presumable copy editor??

Quote:
Once their equipments is all tied to the same iCloud account, Apple automatically pushes new photos up to the cloud when captured, and down to the user's various photo libraries on iOS, Mac and Windows PCs.



Quote:
Apple has demonstrated how to do with with its iWork apps, the first to incorporate support for the new feature.

An iPhone, a Leatherman and thou...  ...life is complete.

Reply

An iPhone, a Leatherman and thou...  ...life is complete.

Reply
post #62 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

Well, if it does not work for you, switch it off, nobody is forcing you to use it (or iCloud).

Or he could just lock the document and it wouldn't auto save anymore for just that document. I think people tend to forget that Apple does do usability testing and they try every scenario imaginable.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #63 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Or he could just lock the document and it wouldn't auto save anymore for just that document. I think people tend to forget that Apple does do usability testing and they try every scenario imaginable.

How do we then do a contract change if the document is locked?

We want to leverage same-same verbiage between customers or governments. There's no SAVE AS command any longer, and even when you CLOSE a document, it gets SAVED. We may or may not want it to be SAVED. Why won't our machines do our bidding anymore?

This hand-waving response of yours was not well thought out nor very helpful. It also doesn't address the even more critical issue - having confidential documents covered under NDA exposed in some application. This is a violation of Non DIsclosures, something one would think Apple would pay a little more attention to.

More than a dozen of our multifarious Mac office systems may be accessed by numerous individuals. If someone is unlucky enough to be burdened with OS 10.7, they cannot have confidential or even personal documents any longer. Anyone with access to the application, has access to the documents that were forced-saved by Apple on that machine, above any & all user's objections. The machine now controls us and will not OBEY.

Nothing is more emblematic of this than the insipid little check box on the Restart (our staff calls this the Retard) window. Uncheck it and at the next restart, it comes back for more. It will never bend to your will. It will never obey what you want to do. It's either not advanced enough to do so, or it's just being a frigging WIndows-like jerk.

I really hate it when machines order me about, don't you?
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
post #64 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

There's no SAVE AS command any longer, and even when you CLOSE a document, it gets SAVED. We may or may not want it to be SAVED. Why won't our machines do our bidding anymore?

If you think a second about it, the duplicate command obviously serves the purpose 'save as' did before. It creates a new document based on the current state (and without any version history).
post #65 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

If you think a second about it, the duplicate command obviously serves the purpose 'save as' did before. It creates a new document based on the current state (and without any version history).

It does not serve the same function, if you think about it more than a second. Have you even used this?
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
post #66 of 112
What's the best option for using iCloud in a family that needs to stay connected with calendar and the same iTunes account? Right now I have all of our computers, iPads and iPhones tied to the same iTunes account for simplicity. Am I going to want to do the same thing with iCloud???
post #67 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

The whole thing is a big step back. Auto-save prohibits the user from making any test version of a contract or document, the Apple way is to save everything, make multiple versions and eat, eat, eat up disk space to sell, sell, sell more via iCloud.

So, you inadvertently make a mistake on a document and iCloud whisks it away, forcing the error-laden doc to all of your instruments.

I've been fighting in Pages with this boneheaded auto-save el crapo rio system for 2 weeks now, and I have to admit, this is the one and only thing Apple has ever done (since my first Mac in 1985) that I truly, truly find distasteful. It has created so much work for me, it's been frigging brutal.

First create a duplicate of an existing file and then Cmd+S it. You will be prompted to give ita new name. At this point you have forked you original file, and the auto save with versions kicks in on the forked file. What you are trying to do is the old way working with files. Pulling up an existing copy and editing it to create a temporary version for printing has never been a good idea. That's exactly how millions of people have wasted tens of millions of hours. Because if an app crashes with your modified but unsaved file, you are back to saved version of that file, which may be a few hours of your work wasted. With the new method, you will never lose anything. All you need to do is to create a fork and save it with another name only once.
post #68 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post


I really hate it when machines order me about, don't you?

I do actually.

I'm wondering if you all would be better off with some sort of document creation
app. Akin to what Lawyers use for document creation since you are amending
and possibly redacting more than the typical person.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #69 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirozha View Post

First create a duplicate of an existing file and then Cmd+S it. You will be prompted to give ita new name. At this point you have forked you original file, and the auto save with versions kicks in on the forked file. What you are trying to do is the old way working with files. Pulling up an existing copy and editing it to create a temporary version for printing has never been a good idea. That's exactly how millions of people have wasted tens of millions of hours. Because if an app crashes with your modified but unsaved file, you are back to saved version of that file, which may be a few hours of your work wasted. With the new method, you will never lose anything. All you need to do is to create a fork and save it with another name only once.

This "new" way of working with documents takes way too much time.

I might need to alter one word in a contract & send it to an athlete's agent for perusal. I would not want my 1.2GB template DUPLICATED nor SAVED in any other format. If that's the new way, it's also the wrong way.

If you DUPLICATE a file, and open it to work on it, when you close it, the OS SAVES it, even though you did not want it to. Now you have a version of a CONFIDENTIAL document on your machine, and you're violating the NDA you signed.

I used to be able to open a template, change one word, spit out a PDF & email to the client and close the document without ever saving it. No extra copies (or idiotic DUPLICATES) on my drive, cluttering things & confusing admin's when they re-visit the folder 5 years later. Only a PDF marked TEST. And no versions stored in any apps.

Who are all these people who had so many of their applications crashing and then losing so much data, that Apple had to roll out a crappy new OS feature to protect their pathetic little butts?

I haven't lost data in a document since this morning, when auto-save over-wrote my doc & saved shit that I didn't want saved. The time before that was when I was in Microsoft Word on OS 9.1. I have never had an app go down in OS X and take a document with it.

This isn't about protecting your documents, this is all about selling storage space. Follow the money.

Well, the more I think about it, the more I wonder: what the heck did people (including myself) expect? I mean, it was only $30. You get what you pay for, right? You're gonna get a toy OS for thirty bucks.
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
post #70 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

How do we then do a contract change if the document is locked?

We want to leverage same-same verbiage between customers or governments. There's no SAVE AS command any longer, and even when you CLOSE a document, it gets SAVED. We may or may not want it to be SAVED. Why won't our machines do our bidding anymore?

This hand-waving response of yours was not well thought out nor very helpful. It also doesn't address the even more critical issue - having confidential documents covered under NDA exposed in some application. This is a violation of Non DIsclosures, something one would think Apple would pay a little more attention to.

More than a dozen of our multifarious Mac office systems may be accessed by numerous individuals. If someone is unlucky enough to be burdened with OS 10.7, they cannot have confidential or even personal documents any longer. Anyone with access to the application, has access to the documents that were forced-saved by Apple on that machine, above any & all user's objections. The machine now controls us and will not OBEY.

Nothing is more emblematic of this than the insipid little check box on the Restart (our staff calls this the Retard) window. Uncheck it and at the next restart, it comes back for more. It will never bend to your will. It will never obey what you want to do. It's either not advanced enough to do so, or it's just being a frigging WIndows-like jerk.

I really hate it when machines order me about, don't you?

Dude, chill out already. If this is the reaction you are having to Lion, go back to Snow Leopard. Or better yet, retire -- you must be too old for the innovations that came with Lion. At one point, the technological innovations become too much, and that's a sign that yo have fallen of the technology band wagon due to getting tOo old for all these changes.
post #71 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirozha View Post

Dude, chill out already. If this is the reaction you are having to Lion, go back to Snow Leopard. Or better yet, retire -- you must be too old for the innovations that came with Lion. At one point, the technological innovations become too much, and that's a sign that yo have fallen of the technology band wagon due to getting to old for all these changes.

Are you even in the business world? What is the deal with you? Do you even get close to writing or composing in volume?

You have no reasonable, concrete or helpful suggestions nor solutions to a very real predicament, and forced legal violations, you're bereft of any idea or spark, so instead you decide to simply crap on me. Nice out. Well done! Smooth. Brilliant. You're shining yet again.

The Apple Lion Discussion board is jammed full of people struggling with this auto-save abortion. I am not alone in my clash here. They can't help each other, so I thought I'd venture over here and see if there would be some PROS who had ideas. And then there was you.

Auto-save was not well implemented, nor was it thought through. As usual, we're all beta testers.

As I mentioned above, it's perfect for the 8th grader doing his book report. For serious writing, and writing in volume, it completely and totally sucks. If anyone doesn't think so, they are not doing serious writing in volume.

Again, what do you expect for a lousy thirty bucks?
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
Hot tub blonde, pouring champagne: "Say when..." Dangerfield: "Right after this drink."
Reply
post #72 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

This "new" way of working with documents takes way too much time.

I might need to alter one word in a contract & send it to an athlete's agent for perusal. I would not want my 1.2GB template DUPLICATED nor SAVED in any other format. If that's the new way, it's also the wrong way.

If you DUPLICATE a file, and open it to work on it, when you close it, the OS SAVES it, even though you did not want it to. Now you have a version of a CONFIDENTIAL document on your machine, and you're violating the NDA you signed.

I used to be able to open a template, change one word, spit out a PDF & email to the client and close the document without ever saving it. No extra copies (or idiotic DUPLICATES) on my drive, cluttering things & confusing admin's when they re-visit the folder 5 years later. Only a PDF marked TEST. And no versions stored in any apps.

Who are all these people who had so many of their applications crashing and then losing so much data, that Apple had to roll out a crappy new OS feature to protect their pathetic little butts?

I haven't lost data in a document since this morning, when auto-save over-wrote my doc & saved shit that I didn't want saved. The time before that was when I was in Microsoft Word on OS 9.1. I have never had an app go down in OS X and take a document with it.

This isn't about protecting your documents, this is all about selling storage space. Follow the money.

Well, the more I think about it, the more I wonder: what the heck did people (including myself) expect? I mean, it was only $30. You get what you pay for, right? You're gonna get a toy OS for thirty bucks.

That's interesting. If you change one word in a template, and spit out a PDF for emailing it, where do you think your PDF is stored? Isn't it on your hard drive? It may be an attachment to an email in your Sent folder, but it's on your hard drive. So, there goes your NDA. If you don't want to have a saved version of a duplicate, then create a duplicate but don't save it. Edit it to your heart's content, spit out a PDF, and close the duplicate.

If you are such a high flying lawyer, what are you so worried about the price of storage. Finally, you can go to MS Office. It will probably take them years to catch up with versions.
post #73 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

This "new" way of working with documents takes way too much time.

Well, the more I think about it, the more I wonder: what the heck did people (including myself) expect? I mean, it was only $30. You get what you pay for, right? You're gonna get a toy OS for thirty bucks.

Wait, I have a perfect solution for you - Windows 7 with Microsoft Office 2010. You will pay $300 for the OS and another $400 for the office. That's $700 for the software compared to $90 that Apple charges for Lion + iWork. Microsoft is almost 8 times better, judging by the price.
post #74 of 112
So theoretically, can Office tap into iCloud in the near future and allow me to save .docs in there, that I can later open up in iWork and work on the iPad, to than be synced back to the mac and opened up with Office?
--SHEFFmachine out
Da Bears!
Reply
--SHEFFmachine out
Da Bears!
Reply
post #75 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheff View Post

So theoretically, can Office tap into iCloud in the near future and allow me to save .docs in there, that I can later open up in iWork and work on the iPad, to than be synced back to the mac and opened up with Office?

MS is free to write Mac and IOS apps that use the iCloud APIs.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #76 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

It should at least be mentioned that the main reason people were/are not happy with iDisk is not the price, but the performance. It's slow. Ridiculously slow. Unuseably slow.

Acknowledgement of this, and a serious discussion of whether with all it's fancy-ness, iCloud will be any faster would seem to be central.

Getting in touch with users of the iCloud beta, especially those not based in the USA and finding out if the speed of access is improved in iCloud, would be far more valuable than anything Dan can tell us about how great it works when you live within a few of miles of Apple headquarters.

I thought the speed was ok for people in the States. Apparently not? Could differ from state to state of course. Here at the other side of the pond it was slow, initially (2008). But they did improve the speed considerably (somewhere in 2009) but it obviously a user experience that may be different for someone else. A 800KB document gets opened 'in a few seconds'. The finder is a bit slow if you have a large number of files in one directory. Opening a folder on iDisk from Safari over a fast (20/1Mb) DSL line that contains over 50 files takes a few seconds, but scrolling down is slow: I have to wait another few seconds before Safari does scroll down.

I remember Steve mentioning that they will have (or use) more data centers around the world so that things speed up because users are geographically closer to their data.
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
Reply
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
Reply
post #77 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) You have iDisk until Summer 2012. If you migrate your MobileMe account before then you use iDisk. Or you could think it through and create a free iCloud account to test the waters, running both on your Mac until you're ready to make the switch.

So that is possible. That's good news, but how do I create a test account? I created a developer account in order to watch some of their developer video's, read some documentation. But I didn't pay a ($99/y?) fee. When logging in their developer site I get the message that I'm not allowed to access iCloud:
http://developer.apple.com/devcenter/ios/unauthorized/

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

2) Yes, its app focused but that doesn't mean you can't "save arbitrary files into the cloud" it just means you need an app to do it. With the APIs for Mac OS, iOS, and iCloud expect to see plenty of apps that are designed specifically for saving, syncing and backing up files regardless of their file extension.

Do you think Apple will have all their apps support iCloud? Currently I don't see a way for me to save an EDL from FCP7. Maybe I should simply add .pages as a suffix? Might be LOL, might actually work. Although one would probably need to open the file in Pages in order for iCloud to sync it over. If that's even possible. What about a zip file? Or any non iWork, but 'Apple created software' file. What's your view?

Thanks!
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
Reply
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
Reply
post #78 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

I agree, it doesn't replace gallery in any way. It's also not a syncing service like the rest of iCloud apps use because it's only syncing a small subset of what's possible. It appears to be quite a simple service. It'll work great for me and my wife - so that she takes a photo and I see it on my phone, and vice versa. But no albums etc. And of course we will be forced to use the same AppleID to achieve this.

We really use gallery extensively between my parents and us and for other purposes.

I use Gallery with Aperture. For me that is a great way to manually manage my photo's, create albums, select if I want people to be able to download them, choose the pixel size. It appears non of those options are available in iCloud. It is however in beta, and even if it's not available after public launch options might be added later on, before they pull the plug from MM in 2012.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

I need to purchase Flickr now to see how well that replicates that - it looks like it'll be fine, not sure about videos in the gallery though.

I haven't looked at videos yet, but did notice that Flickr doesn't support RAW files. Obviously not for photo viewing on their website as a browser can't render raw (as far as I know) but Apple's Gallery allows you to upload the original RAW file next to publishing the JPG.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2175606AAE1BmT

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

iDisk was similar - I never had a problem, but I wanted to be able to back up via Time Machine. Then I'd have a copy on the cloud, a local sync, and a backup on my Time Machine disk... but it didn't allow that (just a backup of the whole iDisk image, so you couldn't browse all files - unless things changed and I missed it). Drop Box folders do of course backup on Time Machine too.

Hmm, I simply mount the local iDisk image file and browse through the Finder, even if I don't have an internet connection. And the image gets backed up by TM. What is it exactly that you are unable to do?
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
Reply
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
Reply
post #79 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post


Edit: the trail might be closed because they are looking for the bodies of some dumbshits who fell after climbing over the rail at Vernal Falls on July 19.

Someone else fell off when I were walking Mist Trail yesterday.
post #80 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Hmm, I simply mount the local iDisk image file and browse through the Finder, even if I don't have an internet connection. And the image gets backed up by TM. What is it exactly that you are unable to do?

I wanted to be able to open iDisk, go into a folder, and click TimeMachine. Then look for a file that disappeared last week.

That's the promise of Time Machine. Though I agree the image backup at least can give something to go back through and manually open to find something missing - just not as neatly.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Mac OS X
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Inside iCloud: Apple's new Documents & Data cloud service