Inside iCloud: Apple's new Documents & Data cloud service - Page 2

Originally Posted by scottyo

"Just works" is fine when it does.

A week or two ago, in order to try out iWork.com, I had to change the email address attached to my AppleID, because the old address (in Japan) is defunct now that we live in Washington, and iWork.com needed to send me a confirmation email. So I did.

Looked fine, until 3-4 days ago, when the App Store (or one of those quasi-cloudy Apple network things) challenged me to confirm my payment details (this was for free updates to free iOS software "bought" through that account). I cannot find any way to get past this challenge, no matter what variations I try in filling the form.

Sent email to iTunes support, got back a response, that, though pleasant and thoughtful, ultimately said "if you're not able to fix it without our further help, we won't either". Then they suggest PayPal accounts (don't want one, too much of my info is public already), or iTunes Store Gift Cards as the "solution". Have already spent about 4 hours on this, not looking forward to going through all of Support's suggestions. Something like this has happened 3 times in past, IIRC. Since I had no money at stake in past, I just abandoned the old account and created a new one.

But think about their "final solutions": if I can't get back into my account, I can't update either bought or free Apps. Probably can't reload any Purchased music I happen to mislay. Not sure if Home Sharing will stop working (I haven't really used it much), or Genius, etc. Can't update Xcode next time around. Probably can't Find My Iphone, and even if I can, may not be able to add new devices to the coven.

My thought on iCloud: there are two agendas, one for you and one for Apple.

Yours: keep all your stuff available to all your devices and safe "for all time".

Apple's: "Monetize" you.

If the agendas stop matching up well--as in it's too much work for Tech Support to restore your account, or Apple decides to drop some iCloud service and leave you hanging, or they start charging for something that used to be free, or charge more than before for something--they win, you lose. Probably no recourse.

Of course, none of that would ever happen.

Originally Posted by jabohn

Photostream is no apparent replacement for the current Gallery. I can't see any reason why I would automatically want my photos uploaded to the cloud. I prefer to choose, and the current method looks like it takes away choice. Can your photo stream be organized into albums? Can you share photos or albums with someone else?

Unless Apple is withholding more info on this feature, this is a big step back.

Originally Posted by scottyo

"Do I trust them?
Just works" is fine when it does.

Originally Posted by LighteningKid

"Patheticity"? I call shenanigans.

Originally Posted by shen

I have only attempted to use it 4 times, 3 different machines. Each time it accepts the files I wish to share, and then promptly deletes them. Since the files where effectively moved rather than copied, the work was lost.

Maybe dropbox is all kinds of wonderful, but it has never worked for me yet, and it didn't look like it needed a lot of setup, so i just don't see how I could have messed it up. You drop a file into it, right? And then it is eaten like the missing socks. Biggest POS since windows ME in my testing...

Originally Posted by AppleInsider Daniel Eran Dilger

This isn't just a network-synced iDisk. Instead. each app that opts in to the iCloud Documents & Data feature is accorded a secure storage space of its own, just as iOS apps each live in their own secure sandbox, inaccessible from other apps. Using iCloud-aware apps therefore won't eat up users' free storage on iCloud, just as Photo Stream or iTunes' media, apps and iBooks use won't count against the free 5GB of storage every iCloud user gets.

Originally Posted by nagromme

Numbers (and other iCloud-aware apps) on Mac and iOS should all work alike, although I do have questions about file management. (You have your docs in folders on the Mac, and organize them at will... how does that work on iOS? I’m guessing your iPad/iPhone just shows ALL your Numbers documents in one searchable view, and it doesn’t matter where exactly on the Mac they may be?)

Originally Posted by Panu

Should I welcome or dread the advent of Documents and Data? I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by jabohn

Photostream is no apparent replacement for the current Gallery. I can't see any reason why I would automatically want my photos uploaded to the cloud. I prefer to choose, and the current method looks like it takes away choice. Can your photo stream be organized into albums? Can you share photos or albums with someone else?

Unless Apple is withholding more info on this feature, this is a big step back.

Originally Posted by GregAlexander

Huh?

Interesting question. It would be cool if every Numbers document on your computer was automatically on the iPad, but I haven't read anything indicating it works with files not being managed by an app.

As such, whether an app has hierarchical folders etc would be entirely up to the app too.

Originally Posted by MADSCI3NCE

Okay, if a document is created by one app, is managed by that app, and accessible to all version of that app - be they on your Mac or iOS 5 device - this system sounds heavenly & would be tremendously useful. But what if you have files that you want to be able to manipulate from a variety of apps? The value of a filesystem (beyond user defined organization) is that I can decide in what software to open & edit my files. Sometimes a JPG is treated like just a photo, sometimes like a document, and sometimes both ... in different programs with different features sets. Does the sandboxed iCloud make an allowance for these cases? So far I'm not reading anything to lead me to believe that it will.

But lately I feel Apple is sacrificing power user features in order to over-simplify everything. I am all for Apple setting the simplest way as the default behavior within the OS & various apps but they're actually removing some more powerful options because they think the majority find them confusing.

Originally Posted by matt_s

The whole thing is a big step back. Auto-save prohibits the user from making any test version of a contract or document, the Apple way is to save everything, make multiple versions and eat, eat, eat up disk space to sell, sell, sell more via iCloud.

So, you inadvertently make a mistake on a document and iCloud whisks it away, forcing the error-laden doc to all of your instruments.

I've been fighting in Pages with this boneheaded auto-save el crapo rio system for 2 weeks now, and I have to admit, this is the one and only thing Apple has ever done (since my first Mac in 1985) that I truly, truly find distasteful. It has created so much work for me, it's been frigging brutal.

Originally Posted by noirdesir

I don't understand what is so difficult about Dropbox. It is a folder, that. is. the. same. on. all. computers/devices.

Originally Posted by matt_s

The whole thing is a big step back. Auto-save prohibits the user from making any test version of a contract or document, the Apple way is to save everything, make multiple versions and eat, eat, eat up disk space to sell, sell, sell more via iCloud.

So, you inadvertently make a mistake on a document and iCloud whisks it away, forcing the error-laden doc to all of your instruments.

I've been fighting in Pages with this boneheaded auto-save el crapo rio system for 2 weeks now, and I have to admit, this is the one and only thing Apple has ever done (since my first Mac in 1985) that I truly, truly find distasteful. It has created so much work for me, it's been frigging brutal.

Originally Posted by noirdesir

Well, if it does not work for you, switch it off, nobody is forcing you to use it (or iCloud).

Originally Posted by matt_s

You can't switch off Auto-Save or Versions. Those are the problems. They need work, they need much more thought behind them, and they need a way to OPT OUT.

It's truly bad practice to have multiple saved versions of confidential documents floating around, pinned to some text app. It's plainly ridiculous.

And as it goes forward, multiplying one version upon another, ad infinitum, storage space gets gobbled up at an alarming rate. Oh, wait a minute, isn't there somebody out there who wants to sell me more storage space? Whew! What a relief!!

Originally Posted by Lochias

First of all, it does not save versions as full documents requiring a massive memory commitment. A version is a virtual document, constructed from change pointers invisible to the user and taking very little extra space. And it does not "whisk away" anything.

The fact that you CAN retrieve any version of your document is of no significance whatever if you do not actually do it--no added work, and little cost in space vs. the benefit of being able to see old versions if you need to.

Originally Posted by jabohn

Photostream is no apparent replacement for the current Gallery. I can't see any reason why I would automatically want my photos uploaded to the cloud. I prefer to choose, and the current method looks like it takes away choice. Can your photo stream be organized into albums? Can you share photos or albums with someone else?

Unless Apple is withholding more info on this feature, this is a big step back.

Originally Posted by matt_s

I never said it saved versions as full documents. I've watched daily over the past 2 weeks how auto-save eats my storage space. Multiple versions of very large documents (1.2GB or more) take up room, even if they're just layers. It's well optimized I think (except for the constant spinning beachball) ... but it still absolutely requires additional space that previously stayed free. I wish it could be disabled.

In my practice, I work on 60-90 contracts a month, often implementing 30-40 changes per document, per day. That's a lot of conference calls, and a lot of words & terms changing.

Dealing with auto-save & versioning is a nightmare. Try sifting thru 2,400 versions of a contract and figure out which one word changed when. It can't be done, I'm telling you. The system is idiotic. The problem dwells in the OS's new demands that when a window is closed, the document gets saved. Documents that no one wants to be saved - test cases, experiments, temporary template alterations - all get implemented, and data is over-written. The system is destroying data.

Once their equipments is all tied to the same iCloud account, Apple automatically pushes new photos up to the cloud when captured, and down to the user's various photo libraries on iOS, Mac and Windows PCs.

Apple has demonstrated how to do with with its iWork apps, the first to incorporate support for the new feature.

Originally Posted by noirdesir

Well, if it does not work for you, switch it off, nobody is forcing you to use it (or iCloud).

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Or he could just lock the document and it wouldn't auto save anymore for just that document. I think people tend to forget that Apple does do usability testing and they try every scenario imaginable.

Originally Posted by matt_s

There's no SAVE AS command any longer, and even when you CLOSE a document, it gets SAVED. We may or may not want it to be SAVED. Why won't our machines do our bidding anymore?

Originally Posted by noirdesir

If you think a second about it, the duplicate command obviously serves the purpose 'save as' did before. It creates a new document based on the current state (and without any version history).

Originally Posted by matt_s

The whole thing is a big step back. Auto-save prohibits the user from making any test version of a contract or document, the Apple way is to save everything, make multiple versions and eat, eat, eat up disk space to sell, sell, sell more via iCloud.

So, you inadvertently make a mistake on a document and iCloud whisks it away, forcing the error-laden doc to all of your instruments.

I've been fighting in Pages with this boneheaded auto-save el crapo rio system for 2 weeks now, and I have to admit, this is the one and only thing Apple has ever done (since my first Mac in 1985) that I truly, truly find distasteful. It has created so much work for me, it's been frigging brutal.

Originally Posted by matt_s


I really hate it when machines order me about, don't you?

Originally Posted by sirozha

First create a duplicate of an existing file and then Cmd+S it. You will be prompted to give ita new name. At this point you have forked you original file, and the auto save with versions kicks in on the forked file. What you are trying to do is the old way working with files. Pulling up an existing copy and editing it to create a temporary version for printing has never been a good idea. That's exactly how millions of people have wasted tens of millions of hours. Because if an app crashes with your modified but unsaved file, you are back to saved version of that file, which may be a few hours of your work wasted. With the new method, you will never lose anything. All you need to do is to create a fork and save it with another name only once.

Originally Posted by matt_s

How do we then do a contract change if the document is locked?

We want to leverage same-same verbiage between customers or governments. There's no SAVE AS command any longer, and even when you CLOSE a document, it gets SAVED. We may or may not want it to be SAVED. Why won't our machines do our bidding anymore?

This hand-waving response of yours was not well thought out nor very helpful. It also doesn't address the even more critical issue - having confidential documents covered under NDA exposed in some application. This is a violation of Non DIsclosures, something one would think Apple would pay a little more attention to.

More than a dozen of our multifarious Mac office systems may be accessed by numerous individuals. If someone is unlucky enough to be burdened with OS 10.7, they cannot have confidential or even personal documents any longer. Anyone with access to the application, has access to the documents that were forced-saved by Apple on that machine, above any & all user's objections. The machine now controls us and will not OBEY.

Nothing is more emblematic of this than the insipid little check box on the Restart (our staff calls this the Retard) window. Uncheck it and at the next restart, it comes back for more. It will never bend to your will. It will never obey what you want to do. It's either not advanced enough to do so, or it's just being a frigging WIndows-like jerk.

I really hate it when machines order me about, don't you?

Originally Posted by sirozha

Dude, chill out already. If this is the reaction you are having to Lion, go back to Snow Leopard. Or better yet, retire -- you must be too old for the innovations that came with Lion. At one point, the technological innovations become too much, and that's a sign that yo have fallen of the technology band wagon due to getting to old for all these changes.

Originally Posted by matt_s

This "new" way of working with documents takes way too much time.

I might need to alter one word in a contract & send it to an athlete's agent for perusal. I would not want my 1.2GB template DUPLICATED nor SAVED in any other format. If that's the new way, it's also the wrong way.

If you DUPLICATE a file, and open it to work on it, when you close it, the OS SAVES it, even though you did not want it to. Now you have a version of a CONFIDENTIAL document on your machine, and you're violating the NDA you signed.

I used to be able to open a template, change one word, spit out a PDF & email to the client and close the document without ever saving it. No extra copies (or idiotic DUPLICATES) on my drive, cluttering things & confusing admin's when they re-visit the folder 5 years later. Only a PDF marked TEST. And no versions stored in any apps.

Who are all these people who had so many of their applications crashing and then losing so much data, that Apple had to roll out a crappy new OS feature to protect their pathetic little butts?

I haven't lost data in a document since this morning, when auto-save over-wrote my doc & saved shit that I didn't want saved. The time before that was when I was in Microsoft Word on OS 9.1. I have never had an app go down in OS X and take a document with it.

This isn't about protecting your documents, this is all about selling storage space. Follow the money.

Well, the more I think about it, the more I wonder: what the heck did people (including myself) expect? I mean, it was only $30. You get what you pay for, right? You're gonna get a toy OS for thirty bucks.

Originally Posted by matt_s

This "new" way of working with documents takes way too much time.

Well, the more I think about it, the more I wonder: what the heck did people (including myself) expect? I mean, it was only $30. You get what you pay for, right? You're gonna get a toy OS for thirty bucks.

Originally Posted by sheff

So theoretically, can Office tap into iCloud in the near future and allow me to save .docs in there, that I can later open up in iWork and work on the iPad, to than be synced back to the mac and opened up with Office?

Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody

It should at least be mentioned that the main reason people were/are not happy with iDisk is not the price, but the performance. It's slow. Ridiculously slow. Unuseably slow.

Acknowledgement of this, and a serious discussion of whether with all it's fancy-ness, iCloud will be any faster would seem to be central.

Getting in touch with users of the iCloud beta, especially those not based in the USA and finding out if the speed of access is improved in iCloud, would be far more valuable than anything Dan can tell us about how great it works when you live within a few of miles of Apple headquarters.

Originally Posted by solipsism

1) You have iDisk until Summer 2012. If you migrate your MobileMe account before then you use iDisk. Or you could think it through and create a free iCloud account to test the waters, running both on your Mac until you're ready to make the switch.

Originally Posted by solipsism

2) Yes, its app focused but that doesn't mean you can't "save arbitrary files into the cloud" it just means you need an app to do it. With the APIs for Mac OS, iOS, and iCloud expect to see plenty of apps that are designed specifically for saving, syncing and backing up files regardless of their file extension.

Originally Posted by GregAlexander

I agree, it doesn't replace gallery in any way. It's also not a syncing service like the rest of iCloud apps use because it's only syncing a small subset of what's possible. It appears to be quite a simple service. It'll work great for me and my wife - so that she takes a photo and I see it on my phone, and vice versa. But no albums etc. And of course we will be forced to use the same AppleID to achieve this.

We really use gallery extensively between my parents and us and for other purposes.

Originally Posted by GregAlexander

I need to purchase Flickr now to see how well that replicates that - it looks like it'll be fine, not sure about videos in the gallery though.

Originally Posted by GregAlexander

iDisk was similar - I never had a problem, but I wanted to be able to back up via Time Machine. Then I'd have a copy on the cloud, a local sync, and a backup on my Time Machine disk... but it didn't allow that (just a backup of the whole iDisk image, so you couldn't browse all files - unless things changed and I missed it). Drop Box folders do of course backup on Time Machine too.

Originally Posted by quinney


Edit: the trail might be closed because they are looking for the bodies of some dumbshits who fell after climbing over the rail at Vernal Falls on July 19.

Originally Posted by PhilBoogie

Hmm, I simply mount the local iDisk image file and browse through the Finder, even if I don't have an internet connection. And the image gets backed up by TM. What is it exactly that you are unable to do?