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Civility

post #1 of 16
8/7/11 at 3:16pm
Thread Starter 
Please take a few minutes to watch the following video:

The Civility Experiment

At first, all Arabelle knew about Charles was that he was homeless, and immediately she jumped to conclusions about his intent, motives, and personal character. She admitted she had treated him harshly, as a result.

However, when she actually sat down and talked to him (which was obviously uncomfortable and required effort...and civility) - when she actually got to know him better - she realized that her perceptions about him had been entirely wrong.

We - the regulars in PO - haven't had the benefit of actually getting to know those with whom we interact here. All we have to go on are words we've written - perhaps some pictures of ourselves we've posted or the occasional glimpses into interests, activities, etc. that we are engaged in outside of our political discussions, arguments, and fights.

Could it be that we (and I include myself in the word "we") have inaccurate, incomplete perceptions of our fellow PO-ers? Could we all, perhaps, benefit from a little more civility in our interactions?

What about outside of PO? With all the political mudslinging going on, can you imagine what it would be like if an effort was made to inject some civility into the discourse?

I am just as guilty as the next man for making snap judgements about PO-ers and treating them poorly. For that, I am truly sorry.

I will make an effort to be more civil here in PO so that I can better understand the views presented here and those who are presenting them. I can only hope I will be afforded the same courtesy.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2 of 16
8/7/11 at 6:36pm
Cheers, take it easy on PO.
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post #3 of 16
8/7/11 at 8:12pm
+1 thanks.
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post #4 of 16
8/8/11 at 12:41am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
I appreciate the sentiment, Jazz. Just for a little perspective, though, this is why I often eschew a more sugar coated approach to my criticism of religion. This is what it feels like to be an atheist in this country where religious criticism is off limits:



It would be really, really awesome if the first frame would stop happening.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #5 of 16
8/8/11 at 7:45am
Or ... for another perspective...

Most likely, we're all a lot more civil in person... in "real life".
But the anonymity of the internet allows us to get on here and actually speak our mind in a way that civility doesn't allow when we're face-to-face. Think of it as just venting our frustrations. Don't take it personally, and don't read it if you can't stand it.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #6 of 16
8/8/11 at 7:50am
As for BR's post...
I really couldn't care less about the "first frame"... if people are so stupid as to believe that the "god" of the Bible, or Koran, or whatever book they choose is REAL, then I really don't expect much intelligence from them anyway. At the very least, they've shown that they don't really put any real thought into what they choose to believe or do.

Now, see... if I happen to meet a (christian, mormon, hindu, muslim) in person... I certainly would not express that sentiment to them unless it were to come up in conversation and they asked what I thought. If people come and knock on my door to proselytize (it happens a couple times a week), they better be ready for some ridicule!
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #7 of 16
8/8/11 at 7:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

As for BR's post...
I really couldn't care less about the "first frame"... if people are so stupid as to believe that the "god" of the Bible, or Koran, or whatever book they choose is REAL, then I really don't expect much intelligence from them anyway. At the very least, they've shown that they don't really put any real thought into what they choose to believe or do.

Now, see... if I happen to meet a (christian, mormon, hindu, muslim) in person... I certainly would not express that sentiment to them unless it were to come up in conversation and they asked what I thought. If people come and knock on my door to proselytize (it happens a couple times a week), they better be ready for some ridicule!

What is much more interesting is that apparently words and thoughts are the same as physical actions per the cartoonist. Calling someone a pervert is the same thing as clubbing them over the head per that comic.

Also per the comic the atheist feels entitled to take that which he feel is physically harming him and destroy it. Only what is being taken there, when you think about it, is speech.

The comic appears to be true on many levels. Perhaps you should evaluate who it really is implicating though. You might not be as smart as you thought.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #8 of 16
8/8/11 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

if people are so stupid as to believe that the "god" of the Bible, or Koran, or whatever book they choose is REAL, then I really don't expect much intelligence from them anyway. At the very least, they've shown that they don't really put any real thought into what they choose to believe or do.

So much for a new level of civility. \

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #9 of 16
8/8/11 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I appreciate the sentiment, Jazz. Just for a little perspective, though, this is why I often eschew a more sugar coated approach to my criticism of religion. This is what it feels like to be an atheist in this country where religious criticism is off limits:



It would be really, really awesome if the first frame would stop happening.

Best cartoon ever!
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #10 of 16
8/9/11 at 12:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I appreciate the sentiment, Jazz. Just for a little perspective, though, this is why I often eschew a more sugar coated approach to my criticism of religion. This is what it feels like to be an atheist in this country where religious criticism is off limits:

It would be really, really awesome if the first frame would stop happening.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective, and I can certainly understand why you would feel that way.

But is the second frame an appropriate response to what happened in the first frame?

Seems to me like it just perpetuates and ratchets up the incivility.

I also think that from the perspective of some of the religious, it would be the atheists in the first frame hurling insults and beating them over the head with a copy of Darwin's theory or some other such thing.

But again, would the appropriate response be to burn the copy of Darwin's theory? Of course not.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #11 of 16
8/9/11 at 10:08pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
We have different interpretations of the two frames--and since I'm the one experiencing it, I'm going to say that my interpretation here is the correct one. So, here goes:

The first frame isn't just about words. It's about actions. It's about being marginalized as citizens. It's about having religious "morality" legislated. It's about having scientific progress halted. It's about death threats when someone speaks up against the status quo. It's about abortion clinics being bombed. It's about abortion doctors being shot and killed. It's about being the most hated minority in America.

The second frame is the atheist breaking the weapon being used against them--not literally breaking crosses or destroying churches, but rather challenging the basis, credibility, and usefulness of religion. It's about being fed up and saying, "fuck, you are basing all these horrible actions on bad mythology. You are blindly ignoring reality." And the reaction to challenging the basis of Christianity is almost always either more vitriol from the first frame or taking offense because their cockamamie beliefs aren't being taken seriously.



As to your reversal, there exists mountains of evidence for the science of evolution. There isn't a single shred of evidence of higher power, let alone the Christian god.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #12 of 16
8/10/11 at 6:22am
BR, are people here calling you an idiot (etc.) because you're an atheist? Does this happen in your actual life?
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #13 of 16
8/10/11 at 7:15am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
The first frame as I described happens here and in my actual life for me and other atheists.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #14 of 16
8/10/11 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The first frame as I described happens here and in my actual life for me and other atheists.

But didn't you realize that being "out" as an atheist means that every living Christian now has an obligation to work on you like a project.... "Come back to jesus' love. Help me help you save your soul."

You're simply lost, BR.

/sarcasm
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #15 of 16
8/10/11 at 4:22pm
There are enough snooty asshole atheists for my liking. At least the jesus freak is easy to understand. Where is it in the atheist commandments to be a smug prick?
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #16 of 16
8/10/11 at 6:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

... Where is it in the atheist commandments to be a smug prick?

It's not in the commandments... it just comes with NOT being delusional.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
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