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German court bars Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 from sale in Europe in Apple suit - Page 3

post #81 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

... From an american, that's hilariously funny. Aren't you lot the ones who worry that the UN is controlling the world with some sort of conspiracy involving black helicopters?

Actually I'm a born in England, English citizen with ancestors going back to the 1400's within a few miles of my Nan's house. I just know when to move on and I consider myself a global citizen (as perhaps we all should nowadays).

America has the exact same problem anyway, they are just a few years behind. The world won't be safe until we can put all that Empire crap behind us and the USA is not far off from the kind of decay and idiocy sweeping the UK at the moment IMO.

Nationalism is a disease of which the British and American Empires are just the most extreme and egregious examples.
post #82 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Seriously? You don't see a difference between enforcing a legal patent on something you invented or designed and being a patent troll? I feel sorry for you and whomever tried to educate you as a child, because they seemingly failed.

The "look and feel"? Please, that is so vague its a joke. lol the last defence of someone who cant have a valid argument...personal attacks.
post #83 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

Yeah, it's soooo the same. Some huge company bigger than Samsung licensed a functional patent from Apple and allowed Samsung to use said patent. Then big, bad Apple came swooping in to sue Samsung (a very small, fledgling manufacturer) for additional fees even though it was paid by the unnamed, huge corporation. The similarities are uncanny.

A patent troll is a patent troll and doesnt matter how big or small you are. Apple has obviously now become a patent troll.
post #84 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

The "look and feel"? Please, that is so vague its a joke. lol the last defence of someone who cant have a valid argument...personal attacks.

I guess you should read the actual complaint (in the US court at least) because that one is far from vague.
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post #85 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

A patent troll is a patent troll and doesnt matter how big or small you are. Apple has obviously now become a patent troll.

Except Apple isn't a patent troll. It actually makes products that utilizes the patents it defends.
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post #86 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Actually I'm a born in England, English citizen with ancestors going back to the 1400's within a few miles of my Nan's house. I just know when to move on and I consider myself a global citizen (as perhaps we all should nowadays).

America has the exact same problem anyway, they are just a few years behind. The world won't be safe until we can put all that Empire crap behind us and the USA is not far off from the kind of decay and idiocy sweeping the UK at the moment IMO.

Nationalism is a disease of which the British and American Empires are just the most extreme and egregious examples.

One can be a 'global citizen' without trying to standardize on a global currency or single global legal system. One doesn't have to be nationalistic to prefer subsidiarity actually be applied. The problem with the EU is that all too often it enforces standardization as a tool of nationalist forces. The CAP is a classic case. Anyway this is kinda increasingly tangential, and Dick Applebaum will get upset if I don't strictly stay on topic so if you want to discuss this further private message me
post #87 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

Except Apple isn't a patent troll. It actually makes products that utilizes the patents it defends.

Yeah Lodsys used the same argument...
post #88 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

A patent troll is a patent troll and doesnt matter how big or small you are. Apple has obviously now become a patent troll.

A fish is a fish no matter how big or small. Are you a fish? Presumably no. How can we tell? Because you don't meet the definition.

The definition of a patent troll is not a firm that enforces its IP rights, because that would be practically every IT firm, it's specifically a non-practicing entity. Not even any old NPE, a patent troll is an NPE that acquires a portfolio of patents which it does not commercialize - and it sits on those patents until a large industry has built up that infringes upon them. Like a troll lurking under a bridge, waiting for a passerby. Hence the name.

Now you can say that you mean something else by the term than what everybody else means, but in that case you're a fish, and by fish I mean something else from what everybody else means. I'll leave it to your imagination as to what that would be.
post #89 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

Yeah Lodsys used the same argument...

Um no it didn't. Lodsys doesn't make products so how would it claim that? In fact, there is only one employee.
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post #90 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I agree with the exception of I wouldn't even say they are up to the "small a" level. Ideology has pretty much left the stage at this point. It's more just plain thuggery, greed and opportunism now.

That's what I meant by small a anarchy. I was equating large "A" to a coherent political motivation. By small "a" I meant to include pretty crime, thuggery, gangs, etc.

[/QUOTE]America next. [/QUOTE]

Been there, done that.
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post #91 of 180
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post #92 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

A single unnamed source says you worship Satan.

Yeah... and...

(btw... that's Mr. Satan to you...)
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post #93 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by sranger View Post

I understand trademarking, but this is a patent issue....


I know Apple wants to halt all competition in the tablet market, but I worry about what effect this will have on their product. No viable competition usually means no good innovations. For example do you think Apple would be dramatically improving it's notification system ( copying Android who copied WebOS ) if there was no competition?


From the perspective 33 years of dealing with Apple, Observing how they operate, Using their products:

Apple thrives on competition -- as long as it doesn't appropriate their IP. Competition gives Apple the chance to "strut their stuff". Boom!

Apple is driven by what they want (with Steve having a major vote) in a product. That's why, time after time, they enter an existing market and offer a revolutionary product that redefines the category,

microcomputer :: Apple ][ Personal Computer
personal computer :: Mac
nothing :: LaserWriter and Desktop Publishing
all-in-one computer :: iMac
personal audio player :: iPod
[not-so] smart phone :: iPhone
tablet computer :: iPad

I suspect that we will add AppleTV and Personal Entertainment Device to that list before too long.

They've had their misses too -- Apple///, Lisa (kinda') AppleTalk and the Jointly announced iPad HiFi and leather iPad case.
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post #94 of 180
I'm just wondering why the United States takes so long, we have become a super bureaucracy
post #95 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

They've had their misses too -- Apple///, Lisa (kinda') AppleTalk and the Jointly announced iPad HiFi and leather iPad case.

Hey! Don't be dissing Appletalk! I created many a network back in the 80s and 90s using Appletalk!
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post #96 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

Apple are now officially in the same league as Lodsys...pathetic.

Gee... I hope you never get burgled -- you wouldn't report it to the police -- thus encouraging the criminal to continue his lawlessness and antisocial behavior.

I believe that companies have the right, even duty, to protect their IP.

I certainly would not invest in a company who stood idly by while their valuable property was ripped off.
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post #97 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Actually I'm a born in England, English citizen with ancestors going back to the 1400's within a few miles of my Nan's house. I just know when to move on and I consider myself a global citizen (as perhaps we all should nowadays).

America has the exact same problem anyway, they are just a few years behind. The world won't be safe until we can put all that Empire crap behind us and the USA is not far off from the kind of decay and idiocy sweeping the UK at the moment IMO.

Nationalism is a disease of which the British and American Empires are just the most extreme and egregious examples.

What? No. When the US empire fades another will take its place. The probability that we will put the empire crap all behind us approaches zero. And if we do, some alien race will march right over us when they get around to finding us.

Hopefully we're more than a few years behind you. Living in a fallen empire typically sucks.
post #98 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Oh, I read posts like this on a daily basis about all of Apples' products, on various sites. It's amusing, because Apple has the lowest return rates, on average. But, when we read, even though they are testimonial in nature, of Samsungs' top phones having return rates of 30-40%, and of about 100% Of their tablets in Staples, it becomes something to begin believing in light of Samsung's recent statement that they will no longer provide numbers of tablets and phones shipped. Shipped, not even sold!

And how do these numbers relate to marketshare? Well, they use shipped numbers for everyone except Apple, for whom we know the sold numbers. But are returns taken into account in this? I don't know. We heard that Samsung shipped 5 million of their top Galaxy phone, but if 30% were returned, that means that they couldn't possibly have SOLD more than 3.5 million, when returns are taken into account, assuming they sold every unit that was shipped. But I bet that 5 million will be the number used in the totals. Same thing for their tablets. Meaningless!

You didn't get it. He was referring to the guy buying a Galaxy thinking it was an iPad and returning it because it didn't work with the App Store.
post #99 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Hey! Don't be dissing Appletalk! I created many a network back in the 80s and 90s using Appletalk!

Yeah... Me too. But I was also creating "real networks" using 1 MBS twisted pair Corvus Omninet -- even sold 7 of these to Apple Headquarters.

Also the likes of IBM, Fairchild Schlumberger, Stanford, U.S. Army Ft. Leavenworth, BullWinkle's, Marriott's Great America, EMI Thorne, Piper Jaffray, Lots of schools and colleges, Marin county.....

Yes, we wired the Frank LLoyd Wright Marin County building for a LAN.... really hard because it is built around a central atrium and we couldn't string wire through walls nor have it visible to the naked eye.





Now, shhh -- enough of this or we'll wake @melgross (who also has lots of experience) then we'll be into it.
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post #100 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Except that you'll start hearing this:

"A friend of mine took his iPad back... it was a real piece of shit. He couldn't even download any apps from the app store."

Rubbish. There are many items available that look similar to each other. It will only be real stupid people that get confused, or sales people that misrepresent the items.

It is has been misrepesented, take it back and get your money back. If you are stupid, that is your problem.
post #101 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Rubbish. There are many items available that look similar to each other. It will only be real stupid people that get confused, or sales people that misrepresent the items.

It is has been misrepesented, take it back and get your money back. If you are stupid, that is your problem.

Except the law says otherwise, now you are free to argue that the law should be changed, but there's no reason to expect Apple to act differently until such time as it is. Personally I'd rather android makers focused on making distinct designs of their own because surely in order for there to be a meaningful choice there also needs to be difference?
post #102 of 180
By their own admission, Samsung went back to the drawing board when the iPad 2 was announced and demonstrated -- to make it lighter, thinner and more like the iPad 2. From what I have read, Sammy went as far as to copy Apple's iPad 2 packaging...

Also, consider someone, say, Grandma who is not tech-knowledgable and is buying a gift for the grandkid.

You'd be surprised.

At IBM we'd get calls from people who had a Burroughs IBM Computer.

Later in the computer stores we'd be asked of fix or sell software/accessories for someones' Atari or Commodore Apple Computer...

Never got confused with a Kentucky Fried Computer (later NorthStar) though,
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post #103 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Rubbish. There are many items available that look similar to each other. It will only be real stupid people that get confused, or sales people that misrepresent the items.

It is has been misrepesented, take it back and get your money back. If you are stupid, that is your problem.

Okay... so you don't agree with me in your first paragraph but you do agree with me in your second paragraph.

Interesting...
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post #104 of 180
I would like to see more screenshots of the interface that look more like iOS. Are these judgments based on the overall hardware form factor or the software?

Usually that home screenshot of the tablet doesn't look like the iPad but I do know that samsung stuff has copied the icon layout and look almost exactly before.

The fact that it's not just Australia blocking sale really makes me think that there really is something to this.
post #105 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhomerun View Post

The fact that it's not just Australia blocking sale really makes me think that there really is something to this.

Finally, full circle...

Post #3:

Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I'm getting the feeling that there's more to this than meets the eye. Same with the Google.

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post #106 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhomerun View Post

I would like to see more screenshots of the interface that look more like iOS. Are these judgments based on the overall hardware form factor or the software?

Usually that home screenshot of the tablet doesn't look like the iPad but I do know that samsung stuff has copied the icon layout and look almost exactly before.

The fact that it's not just Australia blocking sale really makes me think that there really is something to this.

Going off what foss-patents is saying this is based on the hardware design. Specifically the very minimal design with edge to edge glass rather than a bezel, rounded corners, slightly tapering back, etc.

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011...ranted-by.html

(Needs flash to view the community design [design patent in american terms] in question )
post #107 of 180
Since I doubt this post will get updated, Here is Samsung's official response:
Quote:
Samsung is disappointed with the courts decision and we intend to act immediately to defend our intellectual property rights through the ongoing legal proceedings in Germany and will continue to actively defend these rights throughout the world.

The request for injunction was filed with no notice to Samsung, and the order was issued without any hearing or presentation of evidence from Samsung.

We will take all necessary measures to ensure Samsungs innovative mobile communications devices are available to customers in Europe and around the world.

This decision by the court in Germany in no way influences other legal proceedings filed with the courts in Europe and elsewhere.

(source, Thisismynext/Verge)

Important take aways: Samsung is claiming that they were not notified that this injunction was filed and as such were not given the time to prevent any evidence to even to CONTEST the claims.

So, if true. This means apple filed this and a judge passed a verdict by ONLY listening to apple's claims and weighing it against nothing.
post #108 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

They've had their misses too.... iPad HiFi and leather iPad case.....l

Even I stayed away from those two!
post #109 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

So, if true. This means apple filed this and a judge passed a verdict by ONLY listening to apple's claims and weighing it against nothing.

Yeah, if true.
post #110 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It might take the glow off but it does reflect well on Apple. Since tech stocks traditionally rise and fall at excess in accordance with the markets this is more likely to hold and increase its distance quickly once the markets rebound.

They did pretty well today. If they went up that much the day their quarterly report came out, we would all be happy, though they haven't gone down as much as the market has, percentage wise.
post #111 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

We Brits tend to find dark humour in things like this (see Cloudgazers comment), so please excuse me if I make my own decisions of what I want to joke about independent of your opinions.

For clarity, the police shot a man who pulled a gun on them, and he died.

With all due respect, we prefer to not have that kind of humor over such a sensitive subject. We've had our own problems such as this, and find little humor in it. As a mod, I can set the tone of the thread, and I prefer not to see humor made of deaths, whether you think it was deserved or not. This is a US based site after all. If you aren't happy with that, you can complain to the admins.
post #112 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Since I was talking about Samsung's consumer electronics then I'm not sure. Maybe its consumer goods are still shit but they are able to build very good electronic components for others.

Which do you suppose it is?

It used to be that Samsung made junk, and people wouldn't be caught with one of their products, unless they were looking for something cheap.

But over the years, they've made major strides to become a world class manufacturer. Many of their products are really good these days. I have several.
post #113 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Ah, the meme that wouldn't die, in spite of its self-evident silliness:

Let’s be serious about these Android return rates
http://beust.com/weblog/2011/07/26/l...-return-rates/

Android Returns Can't Be 30-40%
http://www.businessinsider.com/andro...e-30-40-2011-7

The Ridiculous Myth Of Android Return Rates
http://thehiphopdemocrat.com/2011/07...-return-rates/

40% of Android phones are returned? ‘Absolutely ridiculous’
http://www.bgr.com/2011/07/28/40-of-...ly-ridiculous/

Android phone return rate rumor started by Apple ‘fanboys’
http://www.examiner.com/gadgets-in-l...-apple-fanboys

Motorola DROID 2 has lowest smartphone return rate on Verizon Wireless?
http://www.bgr.com/2010/09/04/motoro...+Genius+Report

A single unnamed source says you eat kittens.

lulz

Actually, none of those links say anything useful. It's certainly possible that one or two of their products have high return rates. The fact that Samsung now refuses to give any numbers on shipments of phones and tablets tells us something is out of whack. The first link doesn't work, by the way.

No one said that all Android phones have those return rates. That just shows that these writers are pulling things out of their rear. It was said that a few models did. Out of what is estimated to be a couple of hundred. The article also didn't start on MacRumors as that other incompetent said.

http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/26/and...rns-are-30-40/

Here's a guy from the web site the Android Community who says he believes the numbers. He's not exactly an iOs fanboy, as you would see if you read his site with any regularity.

http://androidcommunity.com/android-...rces-20110726/
post #114 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It used to be that Samsung made junk, and people wouldn't be caught with one of their products, unless they were looking for something cheap.

But over the years, they've made major strides to become a world class manufacturer. Many of their products are really good these days. I have several.

I have no doubt they make good products now... but I get set in my ways. Hyundai was another product that had a terrible introduction to North America in the 80s. I still shy away from them now even though they are supposed to have a very high rating.

That's why I'm so happy about Apple's iPad... great intro and getting better all the time. Something that Motorola, Samsung and RIM still have to learn. Consumers tend to have long memories (how the hell did Windows ever get off the ground?!!? ).
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post #115 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by sranger View Post

I thought all of this Look and Feel stuff was settled years ago as un-suportable in court. Unless some one copied a technical design, copyright or software it was not considered a violation....

What has changed recently to allow this?

It's never changed. It's always been something that is defendable. Apple sued a manufacturer for copying the look of the front of it's first iMacs, and won. Other companies that had shown similar machines never brought them to market as a result.

This is called, by its formal title; "trade dress". If one item can be mistaken for another, it violates trade dress, and is not allowed. How close it has to be is an interpretation of the court.
post #116 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post



From an american, that's hilariously funny. Aren't you lot the ones who worry that the UN is controlling the world with some sort of conspiracy involving black helicopters?

Not as long as they are OUR black helicopters.
post #117 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

I'm pretty sure this is just a popular misconception.

Apple famously brought a look and feel lawsuit against Windows and lost. Up until fairly recently, "the story" was that they lost because such lawsuits are unenforceable. In fact they lost for completely different reasons. Also there is a difference between "trade dress" lawsuits and "look and feel" which is not really a legal term as far as I'm aware.

Apple lost because their lawyers screwed up the original agreements with Microsoft.
post #118 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Actually I'm a born in England, English citizen with ancestors going back to the 1400's within a few miles of my Nan's house. I just know when to move on and I consider myself a global citizen (as perhaps we all should nowadays).

America has the exact same problem anyway, they are just a few years behind. The world won't be safe until we can put all that Empire crap behind us and the USA is not far off from the kind of decay and idiocy sweeping the UK at the moment IMO.

Nationalism is a disease of which the British and American Empires are just the most extreme and egregious examples.

There's a lot of this all over. It's not even at its worst in the UK or the USA. Right now, China is the one I'd worry about the most.
post #119 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

With all due respect, we prefer to not have that kind of humor over such a sensitive subject. We've had our own problems such as this, and find little humor in it. As a mod, I can set the tone of the thread, and I prefer not to see humor made of deaths, whether you think it was deserved or not. This is a US based site after all. If you aren't happy with that, you can complain to the admins.

Well sorry Mel but with all due respect this is a british matter and this is the british way, and so it's in entirely good taste.

Some recent guardian cartoons:





Oh and this from the Telegraph






When stuff can be gently mocked in our quality national newspapers, I think flip comments on a technology forum should be classed as entirely reasonable.
post #120 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Going off what foss-patents is saying this is based on the hardware design. Specifically the very minimal design with edge to edge glass rather than a bezel, rounded corners, slightly tapering back, etc.

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011...ranted-by.html

(Needs flash to view the community design [design patent in american terms] in question )

In which case how long before all non Apple tablets are banned in Europe as they all follow the same basic design?
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