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Motorola signals intent to begin patent action against other Android licensees - Page 2

post #41 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post

Why would you hope android would die other than some selfish / childish notion that apple is the only one who should make products? In no way shape or form are you suffering from other people buying android devices.

Because it is slow, buggy, insecure, childish, poorly implemented and craptastic. There is such a thing as appreciating a good product. The flip side of that is not wanting garbage to be foisted onto people. I hope Android dies the way I hope McDonalds implodes and Walmart gets nuked. Some things don't deserve to live.
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post #42 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

At ATT the 3GS is just $50. Yet they sell millions of Android smartphones, many at much higher prices, instead of the "cheap" iPhone. Verizon has the iPhone 4G (16gb) at $199, yet Verizon sells millions of Android phones for as much or more (some MUCH more) like the Droid Charge, Droid 3, Droid Incredible or the HTC Thunderbolt. And these are just US carriers. In GB you can get an iPhone free with some plans. Yet millions choose to go Android rather than take the "cheap" iPhone. I have no idea why so many here think the only reason Android sells at all is
A. It's cheap
B. It's a geek thing
C. Both of the above


Okay... just hold on a minute. How many Android phones that are higher priced than the iP4 are sold as compared to the iP4? Let's start there.
I would put the reasons for Androids sales in this order:
A. they're cheap (and quite often the only phones on display)
B. it's a geek thing
C. choice
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post #43 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

They are? Which member of the Open Handset Alliance is suing another member over Android IP? I don't believe AI's claim is true.

Quote:
This week Motorolas CEO Sanjay Jha reiterated this message, and made it even more clear they do indeed have plans to start collecting IP royalties from other Android makers.

This is what he said about Motorola, Android and patents during a keynote at Oppenhimer Technology & Commmunications conference:

I would bring up IP as a very important for differentiation (among Android vendors). We have a very large IP portfolio, and I think in the long term, as things settle down, you will see a meaningful difference in positions of many different Android players. Both, in terms of avoidance of royalties, as well as potentially being able to collect royalties. And that will make a big difference to people who have very strong IP positions.


Source
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post #44 of 89
Android is a Big pile of cow dung and this crap from Moto pretty much confirms it.

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post #45 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Okay... just hold on a minute. How many Android phones that are higher priced than the iP4 are sold as compared to the iP4? Let's start there.
I would put the reasons for Androids sales in this order:
A. they're cheap (and quite often the only phones on display)
B. it's a geek thing
C. choice

No doubt millions of people have been willing to pay a premium for Apple's product even tho less expensive smartphones are available. At the same time there's millions of buyers who will apparently choose to buy a more expensive Android product over a cheaper iPhone when given a choice. Android is slowly morphing into a legitimate high end choice for consumers.
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post #46 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Source

Source for what, Hill60? Which Android handset competitor has Motorola sued? In fact has any member of the Open Handset Alliance sued another member over Android? As I stated earlier, AI's claim that Android licensees are suing each other is false.
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post #47 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Source for what, Hill60? Which Android handset competitor has Motorola sued? In fact has any member of the Open Handset Alliance sued another member over Android? As I stated earlier, AI's claim that Android licensees are suing each other is false.


Poor you.your world must be crumbling right now.

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post #48 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

At ATT the 3GS is just $50. Yet they sell millions of Android smartphones, many at much higher prices, instead of the "cheap" iPhone. Verizon has the iPhone 4G (16gb) at $199, yet Verizon sells millions of Android phones for as much or more (some MUCH more) like the Droid Charge, Droid 3, Droid Incredible or the HTC Thunderbolt. And these are just US carriers. In GB you can get an iPhone free with some plans. Yet millions choose to go Android rather than take the "cheap" iPhone. Add the millions of Samsung Galaxy S2's sold for the same general price as Apple's 4G iPhone, even when consumers have the choice of either one.
http://www.differencebetween.com/dif...pple-iphone-4/

I have no idea why so many here think the only reason Android sells at all is
A. It's cheap
B. It's a geek thing
C. Both of the above


In the same time frame Samsung sold 5 million SG II's, Apple sold 20 million iPhone 4's.
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post #49 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Source for what, Hill60? Which Android handset competitor has Motorola sued? In fact has any member of the Open Handset Alliance sued another member over Android? As I stated earlier, AI's claim that Android licensees are suing each other is false.

None, yet but the threat is quite clear.
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post #50 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

In the same time frame Samsung sold 5 million SG II's, Apple sold 20 million iPhone 4's.

Absolutely correct. Yet 5 million buyers still chose to go with the Galaxy S2 over the iPhone, and Samsung's product isn't yet offered in many markets, including the US. In no way am I claiming that any particular phone will outsell the iPhone on equal terms. but buyers aren't making their smartphone choice simply on price. There's a market for high-priced but full-featured Android handsets even when the buyer could opt for an iPhone at the same price or less.
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post #51 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

None, yet but the threat is quite clear.

Then we don't really disagree do we? The AI claim isn't true.
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post #52 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

No doubt millions of people have been willing to pay a premium for Apple's product even tho less expensive smartphones are available. At the same time there's millions of buyers who will apparently choose to buy a more expensive Android product over a cheaper iPhone when given a choice. Android is slowly morphing into a legitimate high end choice for consumers.

Are you talking about the 3gs? If you are then, please, give me a break.

If you're talking about choosing a more expensive A phone over the iP4 then I want to see numbers.
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post #53 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Then we don't really disagree do we? The AI claim isn't true.


Your world is crumbling and we feel sorry for you.

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post #54 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Are you talking about the 3gs? If you are then, please, give me a break.

If you're talking about choosing a more expensive A phone over the iP4 then I want to see numbers.

What are the iPhone4 sales numbers?
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post #55 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by FriedLobster View Post

Your world is crumbling and we feel sorry for you.

I heard you the first time.
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post #56 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

What are the iPhone4 sales numbers?

20 million - x 3GS's, last quarter.

x is not terribly large*.


*(Relative to a typical Android handset sales figure it probably is, but compared to iPhone 4 sales it isn't).
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post #57 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by droideggs View Post

you do realize that less competition = worst for the consumer?

i never understood why folks want to eliminate competition...

Also from Apple's point of view competition means no risk of a successful antitrust investigation.
post #58 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

What are the iPhone4 sales numbers?

Let's just say 15 million* for arguments sake... we both know it's higher than that but just so you will get on with the your proof for your argument. Remember... over 45 million Android phones have been sold*... in order for your theory to hold any real water there had better be at least 1/3 of them sold at a higher price than the iP4 in the respective market.

... and none of this changes what I said originally:

People choose an Android phone in this order:

a. it's cheap
b. it's a geek thing
c. choice

... and how the hell did this tangent start in the first place... I smell an Android fanboy... they always seem to be changing the direction of their arguments.

(*this last quarter)
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post #59 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by droideggs View Post

you do realize that less competition = worst for the consumer? .

You do not understand competition.

3 major players plus 50 thieves who do nothing but copy the major players is WORSE than just the 3 major players. After all, without the thieves, the people who actually innovate would have a better chance of benefiting from their work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post

Don't patents have a time limit? I thought they used to be 7 years, or something like that.

Patents were never 7 years. Regular (non-design) patents used to be 17 years from date of issue, but this was changed to 20 years from date of filing over a decade ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Ok, consider the eBook format wars we're currently in. Amazon is the only seller of Kindle, Apple is the only seller of iBooks. The competition between them isn't meaningfully benefitting consumers, and if they competed more seriously and had exclusive content (as Blu-ray/HD-DVD did) that would be wretched for consumers.

I agree that within a platform competition is almost always good, but between platforms it's something of a mixed bag.

Competition is only good if it leads to innovation or real competition. Theft doesn't help anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

If you read on sites other than AI you'll quickly realize that's there's a significant percentage of buyers that actually want Android, even if they can buy an Apple device cheaper. It's not just a poor man's replacement for iOS.

Hardly. The majority of Android users bought Android because:
1. It was cheaper, possibly because of BOGO deals
2. They simply hate Apple and would ever buy anything from Apple
3. They were happy with their cell phone network, but their provider did not have access to iPhone at the time
4. They're geeks - who think that the only thing that matter is the ability to hack the phone to pieces.
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post #60 of 89
Why doesn't Motorola just fork Android? Isn't it just Linux with some Google libraries? How hard would that be to fork? Projects fork Linux distros all the time (Android being one). They could quickly spin up a working mobile OS without having to start completely from scratch.

Surely Android is "open" enough to allow fragmentation. It's not like fragmentation ever really hurt Linux.

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post #61 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by droideggs View Post

you do realize that less competition = worst for the consumer?

i never understood why folks want to eliminate competition...

its like saying.. gee, i hope Comcast is the one and only ISP left in the country...

There is still WP7, Blackberry, webOS and Samsung's own Bada. We don't want Android dead, but we also don't want it to be like Windows on the desktop with +85%. Anything to slow down Android is good news.

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post #62 of 89
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Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Oh my - some android fans heads are going to explode at this.

I think it's hilarious.
post #63 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

Also from Apple's point of view competition means no risk of a successful antitrust investigation.

Apple is in no jeopardy of antitrust from a monopoly unless they move to make mindshare a crime.
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post #64 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

Also from Apple's point of view competition means no risk of a successful antitrust investigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Apple is in no jeopardy of antitrust from a monopoly unless they move to make mindshare a crime.

You are forgetting Apple's monopoly on iOS devices
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post #65 of 89
Android is 47% of the smartphone market, and Motorola is losing money??
Sad to see a venerable American company fall down.
While I have no intention of helping them with the purchase of a Droid (why would I ever do that?), I do hope they pull it together.
post #66 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Competition in platforms can sometimes just result in needless fragmentation.

Like competing standards.
post #67 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Apple is in no jeopardy of antitrust from a monopoly unless they move to make mindshare a crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

You are forgetting Apple's monopoly on iOS devices

Whoa

But Android is open! It has to be since Google has a monopoly on Android devices!!

This is deep stuff.

</sarcasm>
post #68 of 89
OK the most popular androids are in no particular order, samsung galaxy s, and samsung galaxy s ii, motorolla droid x, htc evo, lg optimus 1, droid 2. All of these phones but the optimus 1 where considered high end at release and people knowingly choose these phones over the iphone and cheaper phones. Android is popular because of

1. Availability
2. Features, (people like large screens, keyboards, and microsd
3. Price
4. They are average consumers and picked up the phone that the retailer sold to them

Not every one likes the iphone, it is not one size fits all none of the current OSs work for everyone. Hell I still take my old bold to work with me sometimes because it does somethings better then my android. Ios is a great os is it better then wp7 or android? That question is subjective, for some iOS is better for others it is not. For me iOS unforgenately lacks some of the features I need to continue my everyday life transitioning from blackberry. However maybe iOS 6 will add the features I need, file storage, flash memory, and tethering for free.
post #69 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple v. Samsung View Post

tethering for free.

I get this now. It's not the OS, it's the carrier.
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post #70 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Let's give a concrete example - high def video. Blu-Ray versus HD-DVD didn't benefit consumers, it left a bunch of people who bought HD-DVDs with some wasted purchases, and if people do end up going fully digital distribution even blu-rays may just end up as expensive coasters.

I agree. I just happened to get lucky. I almost committed to buy HD-DVD, given that it had a more stable release and given the initial hiccups that Blu-ray had. Then, news started coming in about how one by one all the studios were going Blu. That was soon followed by the demise of HD-DVD and I ended up buying a PS3.

While I got lucky, a lot of people got stuck with HD-DVDs. Not that the discs suddenly stopped working, but just that to enjoy the hi-def experience for new releases, they had to shell out for another player.

So yes, I do think your point is valid.

Personally, I think that if Android did die, it won't make that much of a difference to the consumers. People change handsets more often than they change home video players, so if Android did go belly-up, the average consumer would not really be affected and their next phone would simply be the one with a new OS.

Compared to the iPhone Users, who wait with baited breath for the next release of iOS, I think the number of Andriod Users who wait for the next version of Android are relatively small (in context of the total number of Android Users).
post #71 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

If you read on sites other than AI you'll quickly realize that's there's a significant percentage of buyers that actually want Android, even if they can buy an Apple device cheaper. It's not just a poor man's replacement for iOS.

I think the only people that actually want Android are in the following categories: 1) the ABA (anything but Apple) folks with the primal instinct to want to be on 'the winning team' (i.e.: the rabid and obnoxious fanboys you see everywhere on tech blogs), 2) geeks who like to play with their gadgets, customize and modify them, use them as a science project, more than as a tool for the job, and 3) people who actually have a valid technical reason to choose Android over iOS, WP7 or something else.

I don't think these three groups combined could be considered 'significant'. Personally, I think the significance in the number of Android handsets sold is almost entirely in the following categories: 1) people who go into a phone store without even knowing what 'iOS' or 'Android' are, but just choose a phone based on how it looks, and how much the sales person manages to influence their decision, and 2) people who would actually rather have a nicer phone, but simply can not, or do not want to spend the money on it.

If you really think 'Android' is on people's minds, looking at the larger picture, you are fooling yourself. Just like 'iOS' isn't on peoples mind either. People don't choose operating systems, they choose a phone, and for most people, the only thing that matters is how well it works for them, and how much they like how the phone looks and feels. Hence the popularity of iPhones and Galaxy S phones: they are simply nice products that people enjoy using.
post #72 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Why doesn't Motorola just fork Android? Isn't it just Linux with some Google libraries? How hard would that be to fork? Projects fork Linux distros all the time (Android being one). They could quickly spin up a working mobile OS without having to start completely from scratch.

Surely Android is "open" enough to allow fragmentation. It's not like fragmentation ever really hurt Linux.

Totally open.

Gregg Keizer, reporting for Computerworld:

In a motion filed with the ITC Wednesday, Google asked that Robert Stevenson, an expert hired by Microsoft, be barred from testifying about the Android source code at an upcoming hearing because Microsoft violated a confidentiality agreement struck between Microsoft, Motorola and Google.

According to Google, Microsoft did not ask permission before showing Stevenson the Android source code.

The confidential source code improperly provided to Dr. Stevenson is highly proprietary source code that Google does not even share with its partners, such as Motorola, Google said.


So. Freaking. Open.
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post #73 of 89
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Originally Posted by Apple v. Samsung View Post

what do you receive by seeing android, blackberry iOS, webOS, or windows phone seven fail? Do you get a fat check by some unknown entity? Does your hours get a an addition? You know what happens? Nothing the consumer sees no benefit, the stock holder sees a slight increase if another player doesn't show up soon. .

Actually, I hope WP7 and WebOS succeed, because I like the way these operating systems try to do things differently. They are not blatant rip-offs, and they are also not run-of-the-mill, thirteen-a-dozen shovelware, that is made to be as cheap and volatile as possible, instead of trying to offer a good experience to customers. My brother has an Omnia 7, and I actually really like that phone, even though it misses a lot of functions other OS's have had for years, and app selection is still very meager.

As much as some people like to think (you seem to be one of them), I don't have the impression the typical reactions on AI are about how everything except Apple should die. Myself, I'm a pretty much the textbook definition of a geek, and I like to dick around with all kinds of technology, at one point I even considered getting a Neo Freerunner or a Nokia N900, so I could mess around with the Linux distributions. Android also had my interest for a short while, when it was just new, but after reading up a little and seeing how the platform was developing, I completely lost interest, since it's not actually that interesting if you really want to hack your phone. Downloading and installing a custom ROM, side-loading applications or overclocking the CPU really is kids stuff if you ask me.

Eventually I decided my phone is too important to me to be a science project, so I picked the phone that had the best selection of applications, the nicest dev tools and SDK (I write iOS apps as a hobby), great hardware, great support (think planned updates, accessories, third-party software compatibility, etc) and a feature set that might not be the biggest, but at least one of the most thought-out ones of all available platforms. If I need to satisfy my inner geek, I'll pull out my OMAP dev board, or try to make my homegrown HTPC-home server system do something new and funky.
post #74 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

At ATT the 3GS is just $50. Yet they sell millions of Android smartphones, many at much higher prices, instead of the "cheap" iPhone. Verizon has the iPhone 4G (16gb) at $199, yet Verizon sells millions of Android phones for as much or more (some MUCH more) like the Droid Charge, Droid 3, Droid Incredible or the HTC Thunderbolt. And these are just US carriers. In GB you can get an iPhone free with some plans. Yet millions choose to go Android rather than take the "cheap" iPhone. Add the millions of Samsung Galaxy S2's sold for the same general price as Apple's 4G iPhone, even when consumers have the choice of either one.
http://www.differencebetween.com/dif...pple-iphone-4/

I have no idea why so many here think the only reason Android sells at all is
A. It's cheap
B. It's a geek thing
C. Both of the above


I don't know how the market for mobiles functions in the US, so perhaps I'm wrong here but if it's like the UK there is also a minimum monthly plan payment that varies from model to model - you can't ignore that. As to why people think that Android sells on mostly price, well the industry reported ASPs kinda make that argument for us.

Apple's ASP is above the price of a 16GB iPhone-4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

What are the iPhone4 sales numbers?

Well given the ASP and given the full prices of the various models, we know that Apple sells 3 of the 32-Gb iPhone-4s for every 3GS it sells. So at a minimum it sells 15mil iP-4s. That's assuming that carriers aren't getting any discount at all, if they are then it would be even higher.
post #75 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

In the same time frame Samsung sold 5 million SG II's, Apple sold 20 million iPhone 4's.

That's very interesting, I hadn't realized that Samsung were claiming 5 million SG-II sales for the quarter, they didn't include the number in their quarterly earnings presentation.

Apple's profits on phones were more than 4 times those of Samsung, (6 billion versus 1.3 billion) so either

a) Samsung made a small loss/tiny profit on other 75million devices it sold (including tablets) combined
b) SG-II was sold to carriers at a big discount
c) SG-II is much more expensive to make than an iP-4.
d) SG-II sells for significantly less than Apple's phone ASP.

or some combination of the 4. Given how little insight Samsung are giving these days in their quarterly numbers I clearly need to keep my eyes open for their single model announcements.
post #76 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

See? Between Apple suing a few of the manufacturers, Motorola suing the other manufacturers, and Oracle suing Google, Android's days are numbered.

Apple doesn't have to kill Android. It'll kill itself.

+1 - exactly what I stated months ago:

1) Google will give up active development Q2 or Q3-2012 due to licensing problems, associated costs, mega-fragmentation issues, etc.

2) while not associated with Google, RIM will cease to exist as a stand-alone company without a "white-knight" investor or partner; possibly MS. Q4-2011, latest Q1-2012.

3) watch out for MS coming up from the bottom with Win8 and WM8, and catching up to Apple by 2013.

All other players will take their losses and fold, get up from the mobile table, and return to focusing on niche areas of expertise... or just plain fold (RIM?)
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post #77 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

2) while not associated with Google, RIM will cease to exist as a stand-alone company without a "white-knight" investor or partner; possibly MS. Q4-2011, latest Q1-2012.

I strongly recommend you look at the latest AMP index from Asymco
http://www.asymco.com/2011/08/12/upd...-index-for-q2/

Look at the graph for RIM, then look at the graphs for Nokia, S-E, Moto and even LG.

RIM is in trouble, RIM's management is clueless, RIM has serious questions over its ability to deliver on a new phone platform - but in spite of all that RIM is still in decent health.

RIM will still be around and independent a year from now.
post #78 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Motorola is a very old company as today's players go--back to the age of radios. God knows what a fat file of arcane patents they have. Most probably irrelevant today, but you never know.

I'm pretty sure it's just such patents that prevented Apple making the iPhone the size of a brick with a large rubber antennae

p.s. I actually owned one of those and thought it was pretty cool
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post #79 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Hardly. The majority of Android users bought Android because:
1. It was cheaper, possibly because of BOGO deals
2. They simply hate Apple and would ever buy anything from Apple
3. They were happy with their cell phone network, but their provider did not have access to iPhone at the time
4. They're geeks - who think that the only thing that matter is the ability to hack the phone to pieces.

Please, do you honestly believe that #2 and #4 really contribute that much to the sales of Android phones? The number of people that actually fall into either of those categories is pretty small to begin with and a lot of those that fall into one of those categories actually are a part of both categories.

And honestly, if #1 really mattered, the 3GS would be selling a hell of a lot better than it is right now. So you're left with #3 which might be true.
post #80 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

And honestly, if #1 really mattered, the 3GS would be selling a hell of a lot better than it is right now. So you're left with #3 which might be true.

If android buyers aren't price-sensitive then android vendors' ASPs would be far higher. There are plenty of reasons why thrifty buyers might not buy the 3GS. The carrier may not have it, the salesman may not mention it, the customer may be concerned that it's obsolete etc.

Price matters to Android buyers, it matters a lot - it's probably the main reason why iPhone purchase intent is typically 10 points higher than iPhone sales.
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