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Google CEO: 'Anticompetitive' Apple, Microsoft forced Motorola deal - Page 2

post #41 of 172
A ZDNet blogger has added a few reasons why the deal makes sense.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/google...es-sense/54987

Within a few weeks everything should be clearer. It's a tough one to call right now since it's caught everyone except the two players off-guard.

But there's no denying this changes everything. . . again.
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post #42 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Google doesn't benefit if their partners leave. Google benefits if their vendors are happily producing Android handsets. Google has never shown an interest in their own hardware. why exactly should the Android vendors be upset or scared? Their common platform just gained a huge weapon in their mobile wars.

Google just blew at least 1/4 of their total cash hoard for a company well on the downslide.

I don't think Google knows what exactly it is going to do.

Yes, the first thing is probably patents to ensure Android remains a viable platform.

But what are they going to do with Moto then?

They will always be in two minds about what to do with it. Google will be distracted trying to prop up Moto while at the same time trying to cater to other manufacturers who are now pretty much 100% invested in Android for their very future.

Personally I can give a moral opinion, which, okay, I have.

Rationally, I would say the waters are very murky on this one.
post #43 of 172
Someone explain to me how it is anticompetitive to protect your patented material from being copied by "open-source" ?

The whole system is a convoluted tangle of contradictory ideas.

You need an exclusive competitive advantage to beat your competition in the open market (or fair market or what is it really?) but if you are TOO successful in the open market - then you MUST involved in something that is anticompetitive and the government should step in and take away the very advantage that allowed you to be successful.

Now clearly there are things like price-fixing and collusion in which companies who are allegedly competing in the open market which are anticompetitive in that they work in opposition to the system of competition in the market place (rather than in the dark recesses beyond public view).

But having patents and products based on them which are wildly successful in the market place and which make it very difficult for another company to be field a competitive product does not equal anticompetitive practice.

Its not like Apple is giving away free iPhones to undercut the competition just to make money on App/Music store purchases.
post #44 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Within a few weeks everything should be clearer. It's a tough one to call right now since it's caught everyone except the two players off-guard.

But there's no denying this changes everything. . . again.

I think this is the best piece of news that could greet Apple, Inc. execs and employees this morning.

Happy Monday, Steve Jobs. You deserve it.

(I'm honestly not being sarcastic here)
post #45 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by msantti View Post

They are happy. Their profit margins will further erode.

Probably, but not because of this acquisition.

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

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post #46 of 172
This should really read as 'Google bail out floundering motorola', or 'Google snap up floundering Motorola on the cheap'. Expect Google to gut Motorola and wind the company up within 3 years.
post #47 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Can you fathom the gravity of Google's betrayal?

Android, free and open and wonderful with pretty flowers.

But... oops, sorry, we got Moto now, HTC, Samsung, the rest of you can jog on and find your own OS. What's that? You invested billions in Android and had no legal protection from us? Well, too bad. Peace out, remember, don't do evil.

This is one of the biggest dick moves in Tech this past ten years.

If there was any sliver of doubt of Google's duplicity, it is well and truly erased now. Mark this day. Mark it well.


Oh please. If HTC was really looking at paying $5 per handset to Motorola, you can bet that they are relieved Google bought Moto out.

A lot of folks on here are predicting HTC and Samsung will be leaving the Android ecosystem....to what? Bada's sales numbers are on par with Windows Phone 7. And they don't have traction in the higher end markets. HTC doesn't have their own OS. And to top it all off, MS is still giving Nokia special rights with WinPho 7 that they won't give to any other OEM (unless they commit like Nokia to WP7 completely). All for an OS that consumers don't seem to be gravitating towards...heck Symbian still sells more than WP7.

Indeed, this might actually finally bring an end to some of the patents wars, if Google can effectively use these patents to force cross-licensing deals with Microsoft and Apple.

This could be a risky move. Or this could be an amazingly brilliant move. Dick move? I think not. Unless you count preventing Motorola from suing every Android licensee to be a dick move.
post #48 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuisDias View Post

No, you are not reading the events correctly. This move means that google will not stand down and wait for all the shit hitting in the fan with all their partners. It means that Google will fight against appl and msft on a more equal ground. Which is good for their partners, not bad.

This is mainly good for android make no mistake about it.

Well, Google has to remember to fight Oracle too.

I bet lawyers all over the US are flinging their resumes at Google right now.

Google is going to have to "lawyer up" big time now. On a more equal ground? Perhaps, with the Motorola patent portfolio. But even then the acquisition will take time.

This seems good for Android but I just don't think Google has everything lined up quite right. There's still a lot of challenges ahead.
post #49 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Curious, excuse the n00b question, but Motorola is up 57.99% in pre-market. In a situation like this doesn't trading of shares of Moto have to be suspended?

Wouldn't people be buying into Moto shares like mad through today?

No, trading isn't suspended, why would it be? Instead the price will tend to rise to around the value of the bid. The fact that it's up to nearly the bid amount indicates an expectation that the bid will succeed and pass regulatory approval. If it went above the bid amount that would indicate investors expected a counter bid from another player. If it was significantly below the bid then it would indicate investors expected the bid to fail.

A suspension may sometimes precede a big announcement like this to avoid insider trading, but there's no need for it to follow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Well, Google has to remember to fight Oracle too.

The rumours are that the IBM patents were bought for use against Oracle.

Quote:
I think this is the best piece of news that could greet Apple, Inc. execs and employees this morning.

Happy Monday, Steve Jobs. You deserve it.

I'm sure Apple is taking this seriously. Before this Moto was a very weak player with a relatively strong IP portfolio. Now that IP is going to be owned by Google, and will at least partially be defending stronger players such as HTC and Samsung (though presumably it won't defend Sense or T-Wiz). From a business perspective Steve Jobs may be having a laugh this morning, but I'm sure from a legal perspective he's at least a little concerned.
post #50 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Google just blew at least 1/4 of their total cash hoard for a company well on the downslide.

I don't think Google knows what exactly it is going to do.

Yes, the first thing is probably patents to ensure Android remains a viable platform.

But what are they going to do with Moto then?

They will always be in two minds about what to do with it. Google will be distracted trying to prop up Moto while at the same time trying to cater to other manufacturers who are now pretty much 100% invested in Android for their very future.

Personally I can give a moral opinion, which, okay, I have.

Rationally, I would say the waters are very murky on this one.

I think you are 100% right that google doesn't know exactly what they are going to do, specifically with the moto business itself in the long term.

I think they will operate it as a separate company with no real connection to the google mothership. i don't think they will let it become a distraction for them. If it becomes a distraction for their Android vendors, I don't think they will be adverse at all to just selling the corpse, once they have stripped off the IP, and even selling it at a loss. If that is necessary to placate their partners, I think they will. But, I think they will first try to convince their partners of two things. 1) the moto acquisition is good for them because it gives them patent protection (much greater than they have on their own) as part of the Android family and 2) that moto will be completely separate and no more or less a threat to them than before, as they will be operated just as they were before (from a mobile business perspective. If they are successful in convincing their partners of this, then their job is done.

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...sometimes it's both
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...sometimes it's both
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post #51 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by spliff monkey View Post

How is it a great move? The just spent $12B on a "antiquated" company (albeit one with a rich patent portfolio), entered a field they are not familiar with (manufacturing) and pissed off their licensees in the process.

Seems like another reason for OEM's to flock to MSFT. MSFT has a much better mobile OS anyway. I think this will tank for Google.

It's a great move because now Google doesn't have to fear lawsuits (as much as before). Also google doesn't need any experience with manufacturing (even though they have made their own phone before) because the company they just bought knows a lot about it.

It's not about what Motorola is, it's about what Google is about to become.
post #52 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbarriault View Post

Legally, they can't. That would either imply Apple does not infringe, or they're giving Apple a free license to use the patents in question which effectively nullifies them.

No matter what way Google's PR may spin it, Google can't just take the defence, they are legally required to seek out and litigate against entities who are violating on their patents.

You are confusing patents with trademarks, which actually DO have to be actively defended otherwise they can be lost. Patents on the other hand can be held onto without suing anyone even if you know other companies are infringing. It's called a submarine patent, and that's why there are patent pools to encourage patent owners to come out of the woodwork so they can collect royalty payments.
post #53 of 172
Some here are also forgetting TV land. Motorola is huge there. Google TV is about to get an absolutely massive boost.
post #54 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

A ZDNet blogger has added a few reasons why the deal makes sense.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/google...es-sense/54987

Within a few weeks everything should be clearer. It's a tough one to call right now since it's caught everyone except the two players off-guard.

But there's no denying this changes everything. . . again.

As usual you are the thinking man's android

I agree, this is a big move and while it has the potential to explode in Google's face, it may also work out very well for them. It's way too early for big conclusions.

I'll be curious to see
  • The fate of Moto-blur
  • If Moto gets a Nexus
  • If Moto phones get co-branded as Google
  • If employees get transferred between them in any numbers
  • If Jha sticks around at Moto

Amongst many other things.
post #55 of 172
Good move Google, good move...Apple?

I see this becoming a Droid vs. HTC, Samsung issue. With Google playing advocate. Thus leaving Apple to hop right over all 3 companies while they fight out who is dominant.
post #56 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagamer34 View Post

You are confusing patents with trademarks, which actually DO have to be actively defended otherwise they can be lost. Patents on the other hand can be held onto without suing anyone even if you know other companies are infringing. It's called a submarine patent, and that's why there are patent pools to encourage patent owners to come out of the woodwork so they can collect royalty payments.

Yes, but in this instance Moto has already begun litigation on the patents, so if they were to suspend it that might be considered prejudicial to a subsequent case. At the very least it might impact their ability to demand an injunction rather than just damages.
post #57 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Some here are also forgetting TV land. Motorola is huge there. Google TV is about to get an absolutely massive boost.

Except that Google bought their mobility department and nothing else.

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post #58 of 172
Ever since Motorola started using Android its market share has been dropping and it appears the company was bleeding its share price for the past couple of quarters. It almost appears that Android has done nothing for Motorola despite Google giving Motorola the first shot with the Droid line. Only Samsung and HTC have seen any financial benefits from Android. This buyout of Motorola is probably the best shot for Motorola shareholders that they'd ever have. Motorola had been terribly ruined by past management and it'll most likely be dissolved in the future.
post #59 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Except that Google bought their mobility department and nothing else.

The cable box business is reported to be a piece of Motorola Mobility, so I'd guess it's included.
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post #60 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

Yes, but in this instance Moto has already begun litigation on the patents, so if they were to suspend it that might be considered prejudicial to a subsequent case. At the very least it might impact their ability to demand an injunction rather than just damages.

I personally expect an eventual announcement that all patent litigation between Apple and Moto has been settled in a mutual agreement.

I suspect that both Google and Apple know too many details about where the bodies are buried.
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post #61 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

Ever since Motorola started using Android its market share has been dropping and it appears the company was bleeding its share price for the past couple of quarters. It almost appears that Android has done nothing for Motorola despite Google giving Motorola the first shot with the Droid line. Only Samsung and HTC have seen any financial benefits from Android. This buyout of Motorola is probably the best shot for Motorola shareholders that they'd ever have. Motorola had been terribly ruined by past management and it'll most likely be dissolved in the future.

This is known as the race to the bottom. When everyone depends on one company to develop their software, the only way to compete is on price (how low can you go).
post #62 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I personally expect an eventual announcement that all patent litigation between Apple and Moto has been settled in a mutual agreement.

I suspect that both Google and Apple know too many details about where the bodies are buried.

I dunno, I think this could all get a bit Shakespearian. Before this merger was announced we were looking at a situation where Apple stood to win big if it could get the first injunction on Moto. If it managed it then Moto would be forced to the table on essentially Apple's terms, but now Moto would likely just accept the loss of market-share rather than accept a poor cross-licensing deal.

Ironically this merger increases the chance of an injunction actually affecting supply.
post #63 of 172
So when do the counter lawsuits from Google start?
post #64 of 172
What's to prevent Microsoft from making a higher bid for MotoMobil?
post #65 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleGreen View Post

What's to prevent Microsoft from making a higher bid for MotoMobil?

The fact that they are partnered with Nokia mostly. They can't buy both, so if they bought Moto they'd lock themselves out of Nokia.
post #66 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

No, trading isn't suspended, why would it be? Instead the price will tend to rise to around the value of the bid. The fact that it's up to nearly the bid amount indicates an expectation that the bid will succeed and pass regulatory approval. If it went above the bid amount that would indicate investors expected a counter bid from another player. If it was significantly below the bid then it would indicate investors expected the bid to fail.

A suspension may sometimes precede a big announcement like this to avoid insider trading, but there's no need for it to follow.




The rumours are that the IBM patents were bought for use against Oracle.



I'm sure Apple is taking this seriously. Before this Moto was a very weak player with a relatively strong IP portfolio. Now that IP is going to be owned by Google, and will at least partially be defending stronger players such as HTC and Samsung (though presumably it won't defend Sense or T-Wiz). From a business perspective Steve Jobs may be having a laugh this morning, but I'm sure from a legal perspective he's at least a little concerned.

Collaborations between Motorola and Apple have a long history in mobile space, as far back as December 2004 when they developed ROKR together, so I presume that Apple actually have licenced bunch of relevant Motolola´s patents around that time.
post #67 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbarriault View Post

So they buy up a competitor (anticompetitive), which gives them now first-class priority amongst Android licensees (anticompetitive), and they do it just for the patents (anticompetitive), and they say Apple and Microsoft are being anticompetitive?

A basic prerequisite for being evil is the ability to twist the truth to suit your purposes. Google's new slogan: Be Evil.
post #68 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

The fact that they are partnered with Nokia mostly. They can't buy both, so if they bought Moto they'd lock themselves out of Nokia.

Disagree. They have not bought Nokia. It is only a partnership. They could buy MotoMobil, keep the patents, and switch it over to Windows Mobile. And, thwart Google in the process.

DOJ may have a problem with all of this, however.
post #69 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

. . . The rumours are that the IBM patents were bought for use against Oracle.

Yes, in fact if you look over the patents that Google rec'd from IBM, it looks even clearer that Google is looking for a swap shop deal with Oracle. And there's been a few other under-the-radar patent acquisitions by Google recently that would appear to be more useful to Oracle than the Goog.

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application...atents-431023/
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post #70 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleGreen View Post

Disagree. They have not bought Nokia. It is only a partnership. They could buy MotoMobil, keep the patents, and switch it over to Windows Mobile. And, thwart Google in the process.

DOJ may have a problem with all of this, however.

They haven't bought Nokia but it's fairly clearly where they are trending. Buying Moto would make it impossible, after stripping Moto's patents and forcing it to be WP7 they would be unable to sell the business because it would be literally worthless.
post #71 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragan0405 View Post

Collaborations between Motorola and Apple have a long history in mobile space, as far back as December 2004 when they developed ROKR together, so I presume that Apple actually have licenced bunch of relevant Motolola´s patents around that time.

That would be an entirely unwarranted assumption, since the ROKR was built by Moto using IP from Apple. Far more likely Apple simply licensed their Fairplay system for use by Moto in that one handset and licensed the use of the iTunes trademark again for that limited use.

Given the significant litigation between the two there is no evidence that either has wide ranging IP rights licensed from the other.
post #72 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

The cable box business is reported to be a piece of Motorola Mobility, so I'd guess it's included.

Your point really is interesting! Why? Microsoft software runs AT&T's U-verse system which of course sucks in my opinion. AT&T uses Motorola hardware for U-verse.

Many ramifications of the purchase.
post #73 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

That would be an entirely unwarranted assumption, since the ROKR was built by Moto using IP from Apple. Far more likely Apple simply licensed their Fairplay system for use by Moto in that one handset and licensed the use of the iTunes trademark again for that limited use.

Given the significant litigation between the two there is no evidence that either has wide ranging IP rights licensed from the other.

Well. Apple didn´t develop iPhone out of nothing. I am pretty sure that they had some deals and some protection from other vendors, at least when it came to core tehnology. Since all their relationship with Motorola over decades, one can only presume that the Motorola was source of patents for basic mobile tehnologies.
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...le-patents.ars
post #74 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudgazer View Post

They haven't bought Nokia but it's fairly clearly where they are trending. Buying Moto would make it impossible, after stripping Moto's patents and forcing it to be WP7 they would be unable to sell the business because it would be literally worthless.

You are missing some large strategic issues.

1) It is in Microsoft's interest to thwart Google's Android ambitions. So far, it has used it's patent portfolio to extract $5/unit licensing fee from HTC (and maybe others). Letting Google get hold of Moto's patents weakens Microsoft's position.

2) Microsoft has paid Nokia good money to make it go WP7. It does not need to acquire Nokia. And, it is definitely NOT "fairly clearly where they are trending." The payment most likely came with the condition that Nokia has to remain WP7.

3) By making a bid for Moto, Microsoft kills 2 birds with one stone - get Moto's patents and get another vendor of WP7 phones.
post #75 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

You honestly think this is a move to get into hardware? If it isn't, and is only meant to strengthen the Android patent portfolio, how would those partners feel betrayed? They are going to be more comfortable with google owning those patents than Apple or MS or even another Android vendor.

Unless Google is prepared to write down the majority of that 12 billion purchase price soon after the deal closes by closing the hardware business, or sell off the asset, the other partners will feel betrayed and at least threatened.
post #76 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragan0405 View Post

Well. Apple didn´t develop iPhone out of nothing. I am pretty sure that they had some deals and some protection from other vendors, at least when it came to core tehnology. Since all their relationship with Motorola over decades, one can only presume that the Motorola was source of patents for basic mobile tehnologies.
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...le-patents.ars

Apple didn't need to develop the iPhone out of nothing. GSM chipsets were available from players such as Qualcomm and Broadcomm who were fully licensed. If Apple had licenses from Moto then Moto wouldn't be suing Apple for failing to license their GSM patents, UMTS patents, antenna patents and so forth.

I'm sorry but you are 'pretty sure' of something for which we have factual evidence to the contrary.
post #77 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

RIM is dead. In light of Samsung being sued, Nokia latching on to Microsoft's teat and now Google swooping in to buy Moto, it's pretty much game over for RIM.

I was at my local craptastic telco, a few years ago when the latest BlackBerries launched it was exclusive to one of the three major telcos and there was much fanfare. Now BlackBerries are sold by every telco and they're mostly a third or quarter of what iPhone still sells for.

Game over RIM.

Not necessarily. If Google is smart, they will sell the Motorola hardware business and keep the IP. Blackberry OS is struggling, so RIM might have a desire to branch out. RIM still has a sizable cash reserve. Google knows that owning the hardware business puts them in a bad light with other licensees. Google gains a massive PR advantage if RIM starts licensing Android. None of the other Android licensees have the business presence that RIM has.

Selling Moto's hardware business to RIM might be a huge win for everyone. However, see below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conscript View Post

I thought google said they will keep Android open still despite now owning Motorola Mobile.

I can see a scenario where they have Android for all to please other handset makers, while they tightly integrate/optimize their hardware to produce an Apple-like synergy between Motorolas handsets and Android.

This is, IMHO, a more likely scenario. Google seems to think that they're above the law and above everyone else out there and the rest of the world (including their licensees) should simply take whatever Google dishes out. I could easily see them going this route - even though the above idea makes more sense in the long run.
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post #78 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

So I take it Google will now withdraw the suits Motorola attacked Apple with.

F**king hypocrites.

NAH! Sounds more like Google is buying Motorola in a mutually beneficial deal alright, but one that also protects Google from Motorola's patent portfolio. "What a tangled web we weave"
post #79 of 172
Pot... meet kettle...
post #80 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Not necessarily. If Google is smart, they will sell the Motorola hardware business and keep the IP. Blackberry OS is struggling, so RIM might have a desire to branch out. RIM still has a sizable cash reserve. Google knows that owning the hardware business puts them in a bad light with other licensees. Google gains a massive PR advantage if RIM starts licensing Android. None of the other Android licensees have the business presence that RIM has.

Selling Moto's hardware business to RIM might be a huge win for everyone. However, see below.

RIM can't afford Moto, they only have a few billion in cash and they really need to hang onto that as a hedge against the coming dark times for their platform. They would have to make an all stock purchase of Moto. Say that they valued Moto without IP at 6BN, that would leave Google with around 30% of the combined entity, so essentially wouldn't help matters.

Besides what does Moto offer RIM? If RIM wanted to license android they already could. Conceivably a player like Dell might be interested since they've demonstrated an interest in handsets and an inability to design them - but not RIM.
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