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New HTC suit accuses Apple's Mac, iPhone, iPad of patent infringement

post #1 of 31
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The legal battle between HTC and Apple continues to grow, with a new lawsuit filed by HTC again accusing Apple of patent infringement, this time targeting the Mac platform in addition to iOS devices.

The latest lawsuit, filed in a U.S. District Court in Delaware, has asked that the importation and sale of products HTC believes are infringing be halted in the U.S. The three patents in question were awarded to HTC in 2008 and 2010, according to Reuters.

HTC has reportedly asked the court for "compensatory damages, triple damages for willful infringement and other remedies." Other details, including the specific patents named in the suit, were not provided.

The suit comes a day after another major Android device maker, Motorola, was bought by Google for $12.5 billion. Google executives have claimed that Android handset makers are supportive of the deal, but some industry watchers have predicted that Motorola will gain a leg up on the competition under Google's ownership.

Apple first sued HTC in 2010, alleging that the company had violated several of its patents. Earlier this month, the federal agency issued an initial ruling in the iPhone maker's favor. Some industry watchers have said that the decision, if upheld by the commission, would be a devastating blow to HTC and Google's Android platform.

In addition, the ITC has already agreed to investigate a second complaint from Apple against HTC. The Taiwanese device maker has expressed interest in negotiating a patent deal with Apple.



HTC also recently bought S3 Graphics, a company that won an ITC ruling in July. A judge with the commission found that Apple's Mac OS X operating system violates two patents held by S3, but did not find that the iOS mobile operating system was in violation.

All eyes in the smartphone industry are on the legal spat between Apple and HTC to see what impact it might have on the business. One analyst believes a victory for Apple over HTC could set a high royalty precedent for Android devices, similar to the $5 per unit that Microsoft collects on the sale of HTC Android hardware.
post #2 of 31
I think we need to update the Patent Laws. Yes, companies have a right to protect their inventions and get reimbursed when other companies utilize them. However, it appears that every company out there is accused of stealing someone's else's ideas....whether by mistake or intent.

Maybe we need to shorten the patent protection period. Maybe there can be some law that fully defines the penalties for each abuse. It seems the only ones that are benefiting from all this litigation are, once again, the lawyers.
post #3 of 31
This whole thing is depressing me. Corporations have all the money and power in the U.S. today. With armies of lawyers, and politician in their thrall, there is no incentive or will to change this ridiculous vicious circle. Any attempt at reform is seen as a threat. They'd rather wrestle with the devil they know.
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post #4 of 31
The Patent Wars have started.
They're all shooting from everywhere.
The future of tech is definitely cloudy!!!
But not in the sense lots of us were thinking.
post #5 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

This whole thing is depressing me. Corporations have all the money and power in the U.S. today. With armies of lawyers, and politician in their thrall, there is no incentive or will to change this ridiculous vicious circle. Any attempt at reform is seen as a threat. They'd rather wrestle with the devil they know.

Welcome to capitalism, good luck surviving.
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post #6 of 31
Kinda funny.
When apple sues someone its all "that's their right, and the others just should innovate themself and not steal from apple".
when someone else sues apple its all "the patent system is broken".
post #7 of 31
Talk about job security - be a mobile/tech company lawyer and make a ton of money. I'm sure the lawyers are loving it all!!
post #8 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_K View Post

The Patent Wars have started.
They're all shooting from everywhere.
The future of tech is definitely cloudy!!!
But not in the sense lots of us were thinking.

This could definitely take an ugly turn for Apple fans. I hope not. Apple's plans in the patent war could backfire horribly.

Time to shake hands, Steve, and move onto plan B... tight control is great... too controlling might not be. It only works until it doesn't... and then you're fucked.
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post #9 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

This could definitely take an ugly turn for Apple fans. I hope not. Apple's plans in the patent war could backfire horribly.

Time to shake hands, Steve, and move onto plan B... tight control is great... too controlling might not be. It only works until it doesn't... and then you're fucked.

It Is clear you did not read any of these patents..
post #10 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wovel View Post

It Is clear you did not read any of these patents..

It's clear you didn't understand my comment.

I'm talking about the overall patent war.

... and, what, Apple's claims are less frivolous in some areas than the rest of the guys. Give me a break.
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post #11 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wovel View Post

It Is clear you did not read any of these patents..

Apple is in quite the power position with respect to current patent litigation in which they're involved.

If necessary, they have the financial and legal wherewithal to enforce that position through further litigation and delay. Apple's innovations can largely remain as they are in part due to their ability to see through the process financially - in all aspects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

It's clear you didn't understand my comment.

I'm talking about the overall patent war.

Which needs to happen. It will (and is) causing a great shakeup where we'll see exactly where everyone stands once and for all. There will be winners and losers. That's part of the process.
post #12 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by noexpectations View Post

It seems the only ones that are benefiting from all this litigation are, once again, the lawyers.

But Apple has the biggest army of in-house lawyers in the world. Given that, it follows that Apple is benefiting greatly from all this litigation. What is good for Apple's lawyers is good for Apple, and what is good for Apple is good for all of us.

Keep it up Apple, we're winning!
post #13 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabiopigi View Post

Kinda funny.
When apple sues someone its all "that's their right, and the others just should innovate themself and not steal from apple".
when someone else sues apple its all "the patent system is broken".

You won't hear that from me. Apple, just like HTC, can contest the case and try to invalidate the patents. Or the two parties can sit down and come to an agreement regarding cross licensing. That's how business works.
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post #14 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Which needs to happen. It will (and is) causing a great shakeup where we'll see exactly where everyone stands once and for all. There will be winners and losers. That's part of the process.

These things can take 5 to 10 years to be resolved. I don't think we'll be finding out anything too soon... and by that time the landscape will have completely changed... the only thing coming out of it will be damages.

Which makes me believe that this has nothing to do with slowing down the other guy... litigation is like the patents... everyone wants to get their foot in the door first.
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post #15 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

This could definitely take an ugly turn for Apple fans. I hope not. Apple's plans in the patent war could backfire horribly.

Time to shake hands, Steve, and move onto plan B... tight control is great... too controlling might not be. It only works until it doesn't... and then you're fucked.

I agree on Apple's control being a bit much sometimes (flash), but they invented the modern smartphone and they should be paid for it. I think what we're seeing now is these copycat companies using litigation and acquisitions to keep the inevitable royalty bill to a minimum. It's like owning one railroad in Monopoly when Apple has 3 and stubbornly hanging onto it so your recurring costs don't double.
post #16 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

This whole thing is depressing me. Corporations have all the money and power in the U.S. today. With armies of lawyers, and politician in their thrall, there is no incentive or will to change this ridiculous vicious circle. Any attempt at reform is seen as a threat. They'd rather wrestle with the devil they know.

Yeah, I find this depressing too but the same sort of thing is true of a lot of aspects of American society today. The entire political and financial system is broken really and it will probably get a lot worse before it gets any better.

In regards patents, I'm getting rather tired of the comments about how patents are dumb and need to be reformed though. Mainly because this is just *not* going to happen so maybe we should all stop talking about it. The reason I'm sure it's not going to happen is that copyright law has been screwed up far more for far longer than patent law and has much more far reaching effects than the rather minor problems with patent law. Nothing has been done there despite the many many problems so why would anyone tackle patent law?

It's also kind of annoying to me because the main thrust of the complaint is always the geeks crying about how software patents should just be eliminated when in fact that's not really the problem. there are more problems with the way in which patents are granted and used in general than there are with software patents per se, but because the discussion always takes place in the technical sphere and with regard to software technology rather than technology and innovation in general, the debate is always skewed that way.

There are so many people who simply chime in with "yeah, there shouldn't be patents at all!" or "everything should be open" or other such nonsense and these are in fact the loudest voices. These people know nothing about what they speak and just muck everything up.

What's needed is a rational re-assessment of the whole situation of patents and copyright, but outside of the clear bias of the players in the game. What usually happens however is that under pressure from the loud idiots with the complaints, the *inside* industry players sometimes get together with some corrupt congressmen to decide what idiocy they will try next.

It's all broken and it's so depressing.
post #17 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

These things can take 5 to 10 years to be resolved. I don't think we'll be finding out anything too soon... and by that time the landscape will have completely changed... the only thing coming out of it will be damages.

Which makes me believe that this has nothing to do with slowing down the other guy... litigation is like the patents... everyone wants to get their foot in the door first.

I think guys at Apple, in particular SJ, do not want to see the Windows episode repeats in the mobile space.
They will defend their territory at any cost, whatever it takes. Facing Apple, other companies who need to survive as well.
It's plain and simple. They will fight like dogs over these patents. It will be very ugly and somehow pitiful.
Competing through innovation is great and inspiring for the consumers. Competing at the court (and I'm not talking about a tennis court) is pathetic.
post #18 of 31
I'm loving this.

Now companies, because none of them Apple, HTC, Samsung Motorola and many others can compete on tangible assets, they are all resorting to use intangible assets and the justice system to earn revenues and label legal costs as their expenses.

Sooner or later, these companies will not have any "products" per se of which will be tangible since most of their "assets" will be intangible in nature (i.e trademarks, patents, prior art etc).

They all will be suing each other based, not on products that they currently have, but based on products that each will have in the future.

The winner in this entire mess? Certainly not the average consumer who are too oblivious as to what is going on, let alone how to tell the difference between a "smartphone" and a "dumbphone". Its the corporate lawyers or legal aids hired to perform these long and drawn out legal debates amongst the highly interested group of tech journalists ready to fire off any new "updates" in the hopes of generating the much needed traffic for increased revenue themselves.

And this, my friends/foes/acquaintances, is how the circle goes around.

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post #19 of 31
Quote:
Competing through innovation is great and inspiring for the consumers. Competing at the court (and I'm not talking about a tennis court) is pathetic.

In the real world, it takes both. This has been true since grade school. Write a kick ass paper or come up with an awesome science project and guess what, there's some jerk wad looking over your shoulder copying your work. In that case, a teacher decided your case. In the adult world, a judge (and possibly a jury) decides.
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post #20 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_K View Post

I think guys at Apple, in particular SJ, do not want to see the Windows episode repeats in the mobile space.
They will defend their territory at any cost, whatever it takes. Facing Apple, other companies who need to survive as well.
It's plain and simple. They will fight like dogs over these patents. It will be very ugly and somehow pitiful.
Competing through innovation is great and inspiring for the consumers. Competing at the court (and I'm not talking about a tennis court) is pathetic.

Wait - Apple accused Windows of violating their "look and feel" via litigation. They lost badly.

Now they are accusing Samsung of violating their "look and feel" via litigation.

What makes you think that their strategy has changed, or that they learned anything from their prior drubbing?
post #21 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Yeah, I find this depressing too but the same sort of thing is true of a lot of aspects of American society today. The entire political and financial system is broken really and it will probably get a lot worse before it gets any better.

In regards patents, I'm getting rather tired of the comments about how patents are dumb and need to be reformed though. Mainly because this is just *not* going to happen so maybe we should all stop talking about it. The reason I'm sure it's not going to happen is that copyright law has been screwed up far more for far longer than patent law and has much more far reaching effects than the rather minor problems with patent law. Nothing has been done there despite the many many problems so why would anyone tackle patent law?

Agreed.

It's also kind of annoying to me because the main thrust of the complaint is always the geeks crying about how software patents should just be eliminated when in fact that's not really the problem. there are more problems with the way in which patents are granted and used in general than there are with software patents per se, but because the discussion always takes place in the technical sphere and with regard to software technology rather than technology and innovation in general, the debate is always skewed that way. [/quote]

Not sure what you mean by that. My brother is a former patent examiner, member of the patent bar, and is awaiting his Texas bar results in the area of IP. Suffice it to say that "the way patents are granted" is probably not something many people here actually understand. It's actually quite difficult to obtain a patent.

Quote:

There are so many people who simply chime in with "yeah, there shouldn't be patents at all!" or "everything should be open" or other such nonsense and these are in fact the loudest voices. These people know nothing about what they speak and just muck everything up.

What's needed is a rational re-assessment of the whole situation of patents and copyright, but outside of the clear bias of the players in the game. What usually happens however is that under pressure from the loud idiots with the complaints, the *inside* industry players sometimes get together with some corrupt congressmen to decide what idiocy they will try next.

It's all broken and it's so depressing.

Never going to get rid of the the bias. That's what our system is built on: People organizing into special interests.
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post #22 of 31
I don't see the current "patent wars" as the end of innovation or anything to be depressed over. It's obvious that the laws weren't quick enough to catch up (as always) and these court cases will resolve the issues (or at least begin to set precedent). Eventually the industry will settle down. This is a good thing in the long run.
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post #23 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover2 View Post

Wait - Apple accused Windows of violating their "look and feel" via litigation. They lost badly.

Now they are accusing Samsung of violating their "look and feel" via litigation.

What makes you think that their strategy has changed, or that they learned anything from their prior drubbing?

You need a history lesson. Apple sued Microsoft for copying Apple's code. Yes, the GUI was part of it, but not just for the look and feel. Apple had supplied the code to MS so that MS could develop Microsoft Office for Mac. Microsoft then took the code and used it to develop Windows.

The reason Apple lost in court is because some of the wording of the agreement between Apple and Microsoft was ambiguous - it apparently didn't specifically prohibit all instances of MS using the code for its own products. MS found a loophole in the language.

That's the lesson Apple learned - get good lawyers, and strongly protect all your inventions.
post #24 of 31
Although this *patent war* is creating uneasy tension even amongst a segment of consumers, perhaps it is what's needed to change patent laws. Often without a crisis, the motivation for change just isn't there. All to say, I am hoping this will get worse before it gets better. If all the companies simply shake hands and effect their own detente, the impetus for an overhaul will be lost.

Let escalation begin. When the dust finally settles, we can thank Apple once again for another revolution.
post #25 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

This could definitely take an ugly turn for Apple fans. I hope not. Apple's plans in the patent war could backfire horribly.

Time to shake hands, Steve, and move onto plan B... tight control is great... too controlling might not be. It only works until it doesn't... and then you're fucked.

This is predicated on the idea that nobody sues Apple unless Apples sues them, which is demonstrably untrue.
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post #26 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabiopigi View Post

Kinda funny.
When apple sues someone its all "that's their right, and the others just should innovate themself and not steal from apple".
when someone else sues apple its all "the patent system is broken".

Less funny when you consider that different people say different things here on the internet. "It's all" is not a real description of anything in particular, other than your determination to see hypocrisy.
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post #27 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth View Post

You need a history lesson. Apple sued Microsoft for copying Apple's code. Yes, the GUI was part of it, but not just for the look and feel. Apple had supplied the code to MS so that MS could develop Microsoft Office for Mac. Microsoft then took the code and used it to develop Windows.

The reason Apple lost in court is because some of the wording of the agreement between Apple and Microsoft was ambiguous - it apparently didn't specifically prohibit all instances of MS using the code for its own products. MS found a loophole in the language.

That's the lesson Apple learned - get good lawyers, and strongly protect all your inventions.

Apple didn't invent anything from the GUI. Xerox did. The GUI was plainly stolen.
post #28 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by noexpectations View Post

I think we need to update the Patent Laws. Yes, companies have a right to protect their inventions and get reimbursed when other companies utilize them. However, it appears that every company out there is accused of stealing someone's else's ideas....whether by mistake or intent.

Maybe we need to shorten the patent protection period. Maybe there can be some law that fully defines the penalties for each abuse. It seems the only ones that are benefiting from all this litigation are, once again, the lawyers.

I think we should further simplify the law: Only Apple Inc is allowed to litigate, for whatever reason, any company for whatever reason, for example: bringing out rectangular tablets!!! (can you believe anyone had the nerve to steal the idea of bringing out a rectangular tablet). All claims from companies against Apple Inc are invalid. Especially concerning core technology like antenna's, 802.11, LTE, 3G, ...
post #29 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

This is predicated on the idea that nobody sues Apple unless Apples sues them, which is demonstrably untrue.

Actually, that's demonstrably untrue. This is not predicated upon that assumption at all. What it is predicated upon is something I already know you do not believe (past comments) .

... and I'm not here to argue something that cannot be proven by either side. Only time and the courts will tell.
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post #30 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by invoice View Post

Apple didn't invent anything from the GUI. Xerox did. The GUI was plainly stolen.

<headslap>

The GUI was plainly demonstrated and licensed by those who had no idea of its future importance. The fact Xerox gave away the farm and didn't get value for the vast majority of groundbreaking research at PARC doesn't mean it was stolen.
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post #31 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by invoice View Post

I think we should further simplify the law: Only Apple Inc is allowed to litigate, for whatever reason, any company for whatever reason, for example: bringing out rectangular tablets!!! (can you believe anyone had the nerve to steal the idea of bringing out a rectangular tablet). All claims from companies against Apple Inc are invalid. Especially concerning core technology like antenna's, 802.11, LTE, 3G, ...

Hey, when a company loses round one of a patent battle (ITC case preliminary judgement), then sues you with patents (2008+) that post-date your shipped hardware (2007) and cite a device-class that you invented nearly two decades ago (work in 1992), before the suing company even existed (1997), it might be smart to be a bit skeptical of the likelihood that the new patent case is anything other than a desperate delaying tactic.

The judges and juries will hash it out. Let them.
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