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Best Buy upset with HP over selling just 25K TouchPads - Page 3

post #81 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

I don't get why anyone would buy an HP tablet.

An iPad makes sense as it is the best tablet available and I can understand buying Android tablets if you already have an Android phone (as many people do). But a WebOS tablet?

You are assuming the few buyers even know what an OS is and don't under estimate the sales people in BestBuy. While strolling past the Apple stand in our BestBuy I actually heard the sales guy telling an elderly couple who had been eager to buy their first iPad that they would not be able to transfer the PC files to it and they would be better with either an Android or WebOS tablet ... The old lady said, "Oh, thank you."

We are rumored to get an Apple Store here soon TG!
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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post #82 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Not at all. $99 would be more than fair. Lots of people have spent considerably more than that for a simple eReader that doesn't do anything else. Paying $99 for a tablet that will function as an eReader as well as doing lots of other things is very reasonable. Heck, at $99, I might buy one and give it to my daughter to watch movies when we're traveling.

... and you'd be one of the people that knows what he is getting.

Most people won't spend $99 if they are unsure of what they are getting.
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post #83 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by drobforever View Post

WebOS is useless with not enough apps, and most importantly, owned by a company nobody trusts. Nowadays trust is the most important thing when selling tablets because it's a luxury and non-essential item. That's why all the Android tablets failed miserably.

I'd say Android tablets suffered mostly from bad designs (the Xoom looks ugly), bad advertising, missing features on launch, pushing expensive 3G models with WiFi models only arriving much later, bugs in the OS, and late delivery of the SDK so no apps. I don't think trust really came into it.
post #84 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

The thing that made me laugh is this:

" a senior HP executive will soon travel to Minneapolis to smooth things over with Best Buy executives."

Is the exec going to ride the Wells Fargo Stagecoach from Palo Alto to Minneapolis? Will he send a Telegram when he gets to Dodge?

That HP exec had best wear some Kevlar, pardner...
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post #85 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

Huh? You say Google getting into the hardware business is going to get android cloners looking at alternatives, so they would go to HP which also makes OS/hardware? Am i missing something? what is the difference between the two?

The you have Microsoft/Nokia, with their horrid Microsoft Windows Phone 7 OS.

Companies had a choice when entering the phone business...develop their own OS/Hardware or go the cheaper short term route and be a "mee-too" cloner with nothing to differentiate your products. Classic short term thinking has led them to be in the passenger seat of the losing car.

HP is in a much much weaker position nowadays to manipulate its smartphone licensees than Google. Android is well established now with a large user base, and Google provides its tightly integrated Google cloud ecosystem that is its strongest feature. That puts Google in a position to take all the cream off the top of the Android market via Motorola. but WebOS is not well established, and HP doesn't have an ecosystem anyway (one big problem for its tablets). HP needs help now from other OEM's just to get WebOS off the ground.

sure, if WebOS did take a good chunk of the smartphone market in a couple of years, HP might start jerking its licensees around then too. but that will give the big OEM's enough time to come up with the own OS as you suggest, like Samsung's Bada.
post #86 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

I don't get why anyone would buy an HP tablet.

An iPad makes sense as it is the best tablet available and I can understand buying Android tablets if you already have an Android phone (as many people do). But a WebOS tablet?

HP's tagline is "invent". So they wanted to show the world how inventive they were by inventing webOS. By buying Palm. To follow Apple. They once had an engineer who invented something. His name was Steve Wozniak, and he invented his own computer. HP laughed and said, thank you, no. The same HP.

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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #87 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

That HP exec had best wear some Kevlar, pardner...



...just spit out a mouthful of water
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post #88 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by WardC View Post

Then why do people still buy Dell computers, they are half-rate hardware with half-baked software and they are still pushing out more Desktops than Apple can sell iMacs and Mac Minis, and HP is still selling more laptops than Apple.

And we all know Apple laptops are at the top of the game as far as industrial design, and the software, OS X Lion and iLife, it's the best on the market.

The reason? You can get an HP/Dell laptop for $299 or $399 when Apple starts at $999 for the bare-bones tiny MacBook Air, and goes up to $2700 for their 17" offerings.

Apple can't compete on those price lines. Simple as that. If Apple really wanted to do the volume selling of laptops, they need to get their prices more in line with the rest of the market. This has always been the reason people turn to PCs, simply because they cannot afford the Mac alternative...the iPads and iPhones can be easily got for the sub-$500 range, that is why they sell like hotcakes.

One reason for this is clear...Apple's business strategy is not to compete in the low-end where computers are concerned - that is Dell's, HPs, Toshiba's, etc. job. What Apple cannot make in volume in its computer sales, it can make in profit per unit that they sell. Apple gambled on the consumer wanting a quality product and willing to pay for that quality product. The gamble paid off. Combine this with the success of their iPod and iPad products and you have a company that is quickly becoming the most valuable company in the world - something that Dell, HP, Toshiba, etc. cannot claim.
post #89 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

HP's tagline is "invent". So they wanted to show the world how inventive they were by inventing webOS. By buying Palm. To follow Apple. They once had an engineer who invented something. His name was Steve Wozniak, and he invented his own computer. HP laughed and said, thank you, no. The same HP.

It's ironic that the same Woz had to have his arm twisted hard (mainly by the other Steve) to quit his job at HP... to do whatever they ended up doing.


To be fair... I worked at IBM at the time -- right across Page Mill Road from HP Headquarters. HP made some pretty classy hand-held programmable calculators that sold for more than the Apple I -- and could do a lot more, had a better interface, and were easier to use. The 20 people in my department used them to go on site and perform various financial (ROI) and technical (capacity planning) calculations to convince customers like General Reinsurance, A&P, Kraft, Figi's, etc. to install our software and buy or upgrade our hardware to run their businesses.

AIR, those particular calculators cost about $800 -- and were quite good,

At the time, the microcomputers (including Woz's) were hobbyist devices and had no practical business application. The convergence of the Apple ][, Mini-Floppy Disk and VisiCalc changed all that -- but that was several years later.
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post #90 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post

In this thread I've heard:

"Kind of a shame. Its better than Android."

"I would take one of them over an Android tablet though...."

And I can't go 5 minutes without seeing the Russell Brand TouchPad commercials on TV.

So... what is wrong with the TouchPad? Why aren't people buying them?

Russell Brand...? I think I see the problem

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #91 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

It's ironic that the same Woz had to have his arm twisted hard (mainly by the other Steve) to quit his job at HP... to do whatever they ended up doing.

Woz wasn't the entrepreneurial Steve. I know where he's coming from

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #92 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Woz wasn't the entrepreneurial Steve. I know where he's coming from

Yeah, Woz just thought of himself (and strived to be) a good engineer -- and he was.

He got off on doing things with fewer chips, the visual look and appeal of the circuit board layout, using existing chips to do other things they weren't designed to do...

And he did appreciate good design and packaging -- cramming an Apple//c into a hand-held programmable remote control.




CL9 CORE UC-100
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post #93 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoTheta View Post

Wonder if HP will charge Best Buy a restocking fee?

If they've opened the shipping crates or it's been more than 14 days, they will. The real kicker is that Best Buy won't get a refund, just a credit with HP.
post #94 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

I'd say Android tablets suffered mostly from bad designs (the Xoom looks ugly), bad advertising, missing features on launch, pushing expensive 3G models with WiFi models only arriving much later, bugs in the OS, and late delivery of the SDK so no apps. I don't think trust really came into it.

Um and THE biggest problem with android tablets: drum roll ..... You actually have to pay for them and a good chunk of change too! Android's cuckaroach-like proliferation has been largely due to the fact that those wannabe phones are "free" or 50 bucks! Only the very hardcore fandroids are willing and able to peel off several Benjamins to get a zoom "tablet"
post #95 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheff View Post

Who cares about best buy. I am more interested in how many amazon sold. Best buy and brick and mortar electronic stores are on the way out. Apple store is kind of an exception because it's a store, an experience center (which will stick around and maybe even grow in my opinio. For apple and non apple alike) and a tech support center.

When people go to buy stuff other than food they go online, and I think that is where the key lies. If amazon sales are as dismal I doubt we will see touchpad 2. Perhaps a corporate only, but not consumer.

Really, an experience center? Personally, I'm often amazed at how many purchases I see when I visit an Apple Store. Those stores are built to move product and from the anecdotal evidence that is what they do. For non-trivial purchases (hundreds of dollars) I don't see physical stores going extinct. Yes, I buy from Amazon sometimes (my first iPod touch 2G was a reconditioned unit from Amazon) but only because there was an Apple Store at a convenient distance for support.
post #96 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

I'd say Android tablets suffered mostly from bad designs (the Xoom looks ugly), bad advertising, missing features on launch, pushing expensive 3G models with WiFi models only arriving much later, bugs in the OS, and late delivery of the SDK so no apps. I don't think trust really came into it.

They also suffered from the OS itself and the entire Android ecosystem. It's poorly designed and poorly maintained. Period.

Google is not about the User Experience.

The reality of Android is coming home to roost in the tablet market. There are no contracts to sign here. It's about 100% consumer choice, all the time, anytime.
post #97 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

No, that was first. They got surprisingly good battery life. You've missed out on a decade of history.

But Windows was never meant for a touchscreen. And the tablets were huge.

Windows Phone 7 tablets will be interesting, though (Or Windows 8 tablets, whichever they decide to use).

I missed on history? How would you know that? that's making assumptions and you know what they say about those. They were laptops for all intents and purposes and I DO know what their battery life was like since I supported them for physicians for 6 years or so.

The windoze tablets of the past are nothing like the form factor, price and functionality of the iPad so I consider them distinct product. They only share the term "tablet" IMO
post #98 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoTheta View Post

Wonder if HP will charge Best Buy a restocking fee?


Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

If they've opened the shipping crates or it's been more than 14 days, they will. The real kicker is that Best Buy won't get a refund, just a credit with HP.

No, it won't work that way... they'll cut a deal -- it's easier to move money than to move physical product.

No way are 1,200 BB stores going to package and ship back 200 TouchPads each.

1) HP will extend payment terms -- so BB doesn't need to pay for the TouchPads for another 60-90 days (and HP can keep the sales on the books)

2) HP will provide some TouchPad software apps (if they don't already have them), say photo apps, that interface HP printers and/or HP computers.

3) HP will create a bundles (with a special package prices) that include a TouchPad plus an HP printer, an HP computer, some apps, some content.

4) You'll be allele to RYO savings -- everything in the package will carry the full retail price -- the savings are amortized over the package.

5) HP will advertise the crap out of the promotion and tout BB and any other resellers in the ads.

That way, the price (and the perceived value) of the TouchPad is preserved, the overstocking issue will be, largely, resolved and the players can move forward.

I can almost see the ads now...
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post #99 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

They also suffered from the OS itself and the entire Android ecosystem. It's poorly designed and poorly maintained. Period.

Google is not about the User Experience.

The reality of Android is coming home to roost in the tablet market. There are no contracts to sign here. It's about 100% consumer choice, all the time, anytime.

+++ QFT

Google has no experience, nor any outlet, to sell physical goods -- they give away services and sell the user's information to advertisers.

They have been successful with Android on phones because others, primarily carriers (or carriers' agents) sell and distribute the physical products.

The tablet does not gain any advantage (to anyone) by being sold by a carrier:
-- Would you buy a tablet that requires a 2 year contract?
-- If not, What's the incentive for the carrier to subsidize the tablet?
-- If there is no subsidy, where's the incentive for the consumer to buy a tablet from a carrier?

So where does the consumer go to buy a tablet -- oh, they go where the sell iPad -- a better price/value offering.

Oddly, the MMI purchase does nothing to change this equation for Android tablets -- except, probably, make it worse.


There is, however, a potential white knight...

That old, famous, established (French?) retailer... Zhae 'Si Pennae with Monsieur Ron Johnson tasked with bringing them into the 21st century.
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post #100 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granmastak View Post

I missed on history? How would you know that?

Your lack of knowledge that Windows tablets came first.

Quote:
that's making assumptions and you know what they say about those.

Yeah. They say, "The only people who EVER bring up that saying are the people who've lost an argument where the other person made an absolutely correct statement based on factual contextual information and not an assumption at all."

Quote:
They were laptops for all intents and purposes

Minus them being laptops.

Quote:
The windoze tablets of the past are nothing like the form factor, price and functionality of the iPad so I consider them distinct product. They only share the term "tablet" IMO

Oh, so you're even agreeing with me now that Windows tablets came first. Thanks for wasting our time.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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post #101 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

You are assuming the few buyers even know what an OS is and don't under estimate the sales people in BestBuy. While strolling past the Apple stand in our BestBuy I actually heard the sales guy telling an elderly couple who had been eager to buy their first iPad that they would not be able to transfer the PC files to it and they would be better with either an Android or WebOS tablet ... The old lady said, "Oh, thank you."

We are rumored to get an Apple Store here soon TG!

Actually you can transfer files to it.
post #102 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Your lack of knowledge that Windows tablets came first.



Yeah. They say, "The only people who EVER bring up that saying are the people who've lost an argument where the other person made an absolutely correct statement based on factual contextual information and not an assumption at all."



Minus them being laptops.



Oh, so you're even agreeing with me now that Windows tablets came first. Thanks for wasting our time.

"our" time? Do you have a mouse in your pocket, or are you royalty? Perhaps you represent the entire forum now?

Windows made a pathetic attempt with those expensive and oversized good for nothing "tablets". If your majesty wants to take credit for those, so be it! Whatever the case, they were big LOOOsers!
post #103 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

Google just threw WebOS a lifeline by buying Motorola. all the other Android dependent smartphone OEM's have to start looking for OS alternatives immediately.

I disagree. I don't expect Google to seriously compete in the handset manufacturing and selling business. They may even drop the Motorola brands completely.

They made a play for MMI for the patents so that they can save those "other Android dependent smartphone OEM's" by countersuing the heck out of Apple and Microsoft until cross-licensing deals can be made and a patent cold-war equilibrium is reached. Without these, Samsung, HTC, and other OEM's are about to get damaged by Apple legal (as they have already been damaged by Microsoft). Once those others get hurt badly enough, the Android army would fracture and evaporate in the wind.

Thompson
post #104 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

That puts Google in a position to take all the cream off the top of the Android market via Motorola.

Ain't gonna happen. The whole reason Android got such great "market share" to begin with was because it had a diverse "army". <Side note: Funny that the only thing some of those platforms had in common was the name, so we really shouldn't sum them together as if they a compatible, unified, platform. But I digress...>

The point is that if Google does an "about face" now and cuts its army down to just the "special forces", it's going to find out that its "special force" squad isn't as well trained as Apple's "special force" squad, and it will be wishing it had its army back. There is some strength in numbers, as Android has shown.

Thompson
post #105 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granmastak View Post

"our" time? Do you have a mouse in your pocket, or are you royalty? Perhaps you represent the entire forum now?

Windows made a pathetic attempt with those expensive and oversized good for nothing "tablets". If your majesty wants to take credit for those, so be it! Whatever the case, they were big LOOOsers!

Heavens, no. I just meant yours and mine.

They were tablets, though. There's nothing that can disagree with that.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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post #106 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

I disagree. I don't expect Google to seriously compete in the handset manufacturing and selling business. They may even drop the Motorola brands completely.

Extremely unlikely. Aside from dissatisfied customers, they'd have a massive revolt from the shareholders.

I think it IS likely that Google will sell off the handset business to someone (RIM would be my guess), but it would be foolish for them to just drop it.
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post #107 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Extremely unlikely. Aside from dissatisfied customers, they'd have a massive revolt from the shareholders.

I think it IS likely that Google will sell off the handset business to someone (RIM would be my guess), but it would be foolish for them to just drop it.

I don't know why people think this is unlikely. Remember Flip camcorders? Cisco bought them and later shut them down. Didn't even try to sell them. IIRC Gruber said in a post at DF that the Flip division was profitable when it was shut down.

I don't know what Google's plans are for Moto. I wouldn't rule out shutting them down at some point however. MOTO was unprofitable so GOOG spinning off the handset business may not bring anything. The value was in the patents and GOOG probably isn't selling them anytime soon. MOTO's handset business is a liability, not an asset. GOOG will need to figure out how to turn that around.
post #108 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by WardC View Post

Then why do people still buy Dell computers, they are half-rate hardware with half-baked software and they are still pushing out more Desktops than Apple can sell iMacs and Mac Minis, and HP is still selling more laptops than Apple.

And we all know Apple laptops are at the top of the game as far as industrial design, and the software, OS X Lion and iLife, it's the best on the market.

The reason? You can get an HP/Dell laptop for $299 or $399 when Apple starts at $999 for the bare-bones tiny MacBook Air, and goes up to $2700 for their 17" offerings.

Apple can't compete on those price lines. Simple as that. If Apple really wanted to do the volume selling of laptops, they need to get their prices more in line with the rest of the market. This has always been the reason people turn to PCs, simply because they cannot afford the Mac alternative...the iPads and iPhones can be easily got for the sub-$500 range, that is why they sell like hotcakes.

Apple does not even try to compete at the ultra low end of the desktop market where the margins are razor thin. Why should they right now? They sell more MP3 players than anyone else, more tablets than anyone else, and have had steady gains in market share for they past five years in desktops. Competing only on price is a losing strategy.
post #109 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

Ain't gonna happen. The whole reason Android got such great "market share" to begin with was because it had a diverse "army". <Side note: Funny that the only thing some of those platforms had in common was the name, so we really shouldn't sum them together as if they a compatible, unified, platform. But I digress...>

The point is that if Google does an "about face" now and cuts its army down to just the "special forces", it's going to find out that its "special force" squad isn't as well trained as Apple's "special force" squad, and it will be wishing it had its army back. There is some strength in numbers, as Android has shown.

Thompson

well yeah, field marshall Google has just told its Android Army that "it's every man for himself!" so a year from now there won't be many troops left.

but Googorola will still be able to put out premium "pure Android" smartphones with the latest and greatest versions of Android and all of Google's web apps, and get a premium price with decent profit margins for them, whatever the market share. that's the "cream" i wuz talking about.
post #110 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I don't know why people think this is unlikely. Remember Flip camcorders? Cisco bought them and later shut them down. Didn't even try to sell them. IIRC Gruber said in a post at DF that the Flip division was profitable when it was shut down.

I don't know what Google's plans are for Moto. I wouldn't rule out shutting them down at some point however. MOTO was unprofitable so GOOG spinning off the handset business may not bring anything. The value was in the patents and GOOG probably isn't selling them anytime soon. MOTO's handset business is a liability, not an asset. GOOG will need to figure out how to turn that around.

There are huge differences:

1. FLIP camcorders were not successful in the marketplace. Moto phones are.

2. No one was likely to pay anything for FLIP camcorders at the time it was shut down. Moto cell phone division would get an attractive price (assuming that Google gives a license to use its patents).

3. There's plenty of reason to believe that Moto's phone business could be made profitable with some management changes. There was absolutely no reason to think that Flip could have been made profitable.
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post #111 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Bright minds think alike.

Why, thank you, sir.
post #112 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

That HP exec had best wear some Kevlar, pardner...

Or this:


How things are going to get "smoothed" over. Guess who will be thrown under?

PS. I have no idea what the caption relates to. I just grabbed the first image I saw.
post #113 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

...

Oh, so you're even agreeing with me now that Windows tablets came first. Thanks for wasting our time.

Nonsense, both the Apple Newton and the EO tablet came years before Microsoft lumbered into the tablet market.
post #114 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

3. There's plenty of reason to believe that Moto's phone business could be made profitable with some management changes. There was absolutely no reason to think that Flip could have been made profitable.

but there is also absolutely no reason to think Google has any idea how to solve Moto's management problems. this is a panic buy, not a well thought out and planned management restructuring. and Google knows zilch about manufacturing and hardware engineering. the public theory is they are buying Moto to acquire that expertise. but what they are really acquiring is their incompetence!
post #115 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

but there is also absolutely no reason to think Google has any idea how to solve Moto's management problems. this is a panic buy, not a well thought out and planned management restructuring. and Google knows zilch about manufacturing and hardware engineering. the public theory is they are buying Moto to acquire that expertise. but what they are really acquiring is their incompetence!

This is absurd. There's no reason to think that Google DOESN'T have a plan, either.

You don't spend $12.5 B on a whim - even if you're rich. The idea that Google is full of idiots who don't have any clue what they're doing is absurd. While I despise their business ethics, they are clearly very astute business people. And their advisors would be all over them if they tried to do this without a plan (to the point where you would have seen reports of Google advisors quitting).
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post #116 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

There are huge differences:

1. FLIP camcorders were not successful in the marketplace. Moto phones are.

2. No one was likely to pay anything for FLIP camcorders at the time it was shut down. Moto cell phone division would get an attractive price (assuming that Google gives a license to use its patents).

3. There's plenty of reason to believe that Moto's phone business could be made profitable with some management changes. There was absolutely no reason to think that Flip could have been made profitable.

1) I'd argue the opposite. Flips dominated the handheld camcorder business. I would agree that cellphones are about to decimate that business however.

2) Could be, who knows? What makes you think anyone would pay for the Moto handset business? That business is unprofitable at the moment. What's going to make it profitable?

3) I think the jury is still out on whether Moto can be made profitable. The Android handset business is looking a lot like the pc business, a low profit to no profit commodity business.
post #117 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008

I still don't know why people think WebOS under HP really has any future at all. It's just rubbish, and will take another six months to be anywhere close to the iPad.

Maybe HP can turn things around, but this is really worse than anyone thought. The anti-Apple sentiment, geek fantasies and blogs desperate for clicks and anything non-iPad are proven once again to be not even in the same universe as our current reality.

Well, another I-told-you-so from me. HP killed off WebOS. I bet you Best Buy must be real thrilled now. I'm sure things have been "smoothed" over quite well indeed.

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