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Ron Paul: Lets let the vulnerable live on charity so we can be at one wkth them.

post #1 of 51
Thread Starter 
Yeah that's right, Libertarians want the poor to be at the mercy of charities. Charities that are often funded to push their politics and religion. Healthcare is a good example. Come to Jesus and we'll cure you, all the while whilst pushing against any plans that provide universal healthcare.

These Libertarian monsters want CONTROL OVER YOUR LIFE AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT YOUR AN EVIL GLOBALST.

I know...over the top, but it's not as far from the truth as it seems.

God, I'd like to send these Libertarian monsters back to the hole they climbed out of.

I was brought up by a single parent mother. They'd make her life a living hell. WELL LET ME TELL YOU YOU LIBERTARIAN BLEEPS, SHE BROUGHT UP FOUR KIDS AND STRUGGLED TO DO THAT ON THE PITTANCE THE UK GOVERNMENT GAVE HER.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #2 of 51
Over the top? Yeah.

You probably ought to calm that bitterness and anger of yours. Not to mention putting away the lies you're trying to spread.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #3 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Over the top? Yeah.

You probably ought to calm that bitterness and anger of yours. Not to mention putting away the lies you're trying to spread.

I'm not bitter that the government has progressed enough to let people like my mother live according to her own rules rather than that of some religious or politacal group.

Like I've said before, my mother comes from a wealthy family. She was bought a house by the time I was nine. But, I saw how your group, and it is your group, saw single mothers as parasites, only too happy to cut their benefits.

I'm truly sad about where people like you might take the US and I'm glad my mother wasn't stripped of the little she had.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #4 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'm not bitter that the government has progressed enough to let people like my mother live according to her own rules rather than that of some religious or politacal group.

Like I've said before, my mother comes from a wealthy family. She was bought a house by the time I was nine. But, I saw how your group, and it is your group, saw single mothers as parasites, only too happy to cut their benefits.

I'm truly sad about where people like you might take the US and I'm glad my mother wasn't stripped of the little she had.

Actually, what you are is confused and ignorant about where "people like me" would take the US. You have a dystopian opinion about what the policies of liberty and respect for people and their property and a reduction in government coercion would bring. I believe your opinion is wrong.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #5 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Actually, what you are is confused and ignorant about where "people like me" would take the US. You have a dystopian opinion about what the policies of liberty and respect for people and their property and a reduction in government coercion would bring. I believe your opinion is wrong.

Tell that to single mothers every week with dollar bills and I'll believe you. Oh I forgot you want to cut taxes.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #6 of 51
What percentage of your gross income do you donate to charity, Hands?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #7 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

What percentage of your gross income do you donate to charity, Hands?

That question would have been more appropriate in the recent posts of the free speech thread than this one.

I don't think I've given much to charity over the years, but I'd say over the last ten years or so I've probably given close to 10%, dipping down to 5% in a bad year.
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post #8 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

What percentage of your gross income do you donate to charity, Hands?

How much of your disposable income do you give to charity, Jazzy? Not counting the part that partially gets used to build castles complete with inner sanctums that forbid the entry of women.
post #9 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How much of your disposable income do you give to charity, Jazzy? Not counting the part that partially gets used to build castles complete with inner sanctums that forbid the entry of women.

And boom goes the dynamite.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #10 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How much of your disposable income do you give to charity, Jazzy? Not counting the part that partially gets used to build castles complete with inner sanctums that forbid the entry of women.

The bigotry never stops does it?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #11 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

The bigotry never stops does it?

No, it absolutely doesn't.
post #12 of 51
Forget the funds given toward church building upkeep and pastoral staff salaries.

The amount that North American Christians give solely to overseas relief and development work make liberal charity dollars look like monopoly money.
And I mean the pink and white bills, not even the gold ones.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #13 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How much of your disposable income do you give to charity, Jazzy? Not counting the part that partially gets used to build castles complete with inner sanctums that forbid the entry of women.

If you are referring to our temples and churches, we do much more than build houses of worship (which actually do benefit those who patronize them).

http://www.providentliving.org/

http://lds.org/haiti-relief/relief/homepage.htm

http://lds.org/service/humanitarian?lang=eng

In addition, we have a lay clergy. They support themselves in their own careers in addition to their church responsibilities.

Aside from tithing 10% of our gross income, members of the church fast for 24 hours out of every month and donate the money we would have spent on meals to help those in need in our immediate area. We call this a "fast offering". 100% of fast offering money goes to the needy in our area - none of it is used for anything else.

I donate between 12% and 15% of my gross income (even in "bad" years). And I am not coerced or forced to do so.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #14 of 51
But thanks to you and your church, gay people in California can't get married. Kinda tarnishes all the wonderful stuff you do.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #15 of 51
I'm trying to figure out why we can't just leave government out of the question of marriage altogether.

If people want to join together in some kind of "marriage" union, they make this a contractual matter. If they want this union to be "blessed" or "ordained" by God, they can achieve this by a church-based wedding ceremony.

Why does the state need to be involved with this at all?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #16 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But thanks to you and your church, gay people in California can't get married. Kinda tarnishes all the wonderful stuff you do.

I did not vote on Prop 8. I did not donate in support of Prop 8.

I want the State out of marriage altogether, but it's not. So until it is, it's unfortunately a matter of which group gets to use government to force everyone else to do what it wants.

I don't like it any more than you do, but it is what it is and you have to try to work with the system you've got until you can put a better one in place.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #17 of 51
Your church put money into it. You put money into your church. You still attend and tithe to your church. You support the organization that pushed through Prop 8. You are still part of the fucking problem.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #18 of 51
Is it Mormons who are preventing gays from marrying, or the State?

Other states allow gays to marry. Mormons live in those states and peacefully coexist with them.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #19 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


I donate between 12% and 15% of my gross income (even in "bad" years). And I am not coerced or forced to do so.

That's less than me then, much less in fact. The 10% you give entitles you to stay in your church and you know it. And please don't lie to us, we know how the scam works, you buy your way in. It's very Libertarian in that regard. That leaves you well below me in real giving, at a somewhat miserly 2% - 5%.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #20 of 51
Nobody is excommunicated from my church for not paying a full tithe.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #21 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Nobody is excommunicated from my church for not paying a full tithe.

They won't even let you into the churches if you don't pay up.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #22 of 51
I like how some are applying their own values to determine what is "legitimate" charitable giving by others. Nice.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #23 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

They won't even let you into the churches if you don't pay up.

I think you are confused.

We have churches, and we also have temples. They are different in function and purpose.

Churches, where we worship every Sunday, are open to all - members and non-members alike.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #24 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I think you are confused.

We have churches, and we also have temples. They are different in function and purpose.

Churches, where we worship every Sunday, are open to all - members and non-members alike.

OK, so temples then. More like being banned from Cathedrals and then some-

"Richard and Joan Ostling, and Hugh F. Pyle claim that the LDS's policy on temple admission is unreasonable, noting that even relatives cannot attend a temple marriage unless they are members of the church in good standing. The Ostlings, the Institute for Religious Research and Jerald and Sandra Tanner claim that the admission rules are unreasonable because admission to the temple requires that a church member must first declare that they pay their full tithe before they can enter a temple. The Mormonism Research Ministry calls this "coerced tithing" because church members that do not pay the full tithe cannot enter the temple, and thus cannot receive the ordinances required to receive the highest order of exaltation in the next life.
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critici...ter-day_Saints
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #25 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I like how some are applying their own values to determine what is "legitimate" charitable giving by others. Nice.

It was tongue-in-cheek, though actually thinking more about it does make me wonder what the motivation really is, conscious or not. I don't know how it feels to be pressured to give or else, at least not in the way Mormons must.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #26 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It was tongue-in-cheek, though actually thinking more about it does make me wonder what the motivation really is, conscious or not. I don't know how it feels to be pressured to give or else, at least not in the way Mormons must.

Perhaps. But let me ask this: I give a lot to the church I attend. One of the main reasons I do this is because this church is pooling its considerable size and resources to do some great things locally and globally that we could not do individually. Does that count?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #27 of 51

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #28 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Perhaps. But let me ask this: I give a lot to the church I attend. One of the main reasons I do this is because this church is pooling its considerable size and resources to do some great things locally and globally that we could not do individually. Does that count?

Like I said it was tongue in cheek. I wonder though, if your church said if you don't contribute enough you'll be made to feel like an outcast and won't be allowed to visit the temple for the ultimate God ritual whether even you would wonder if it counted.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #29 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Like I said it was tongue in cheek. I wonder though, if your church said if you don't contribute enough you'll be made to feel like an outcast and won't be allowed to visit the temple for the ultimate God ritual whether even you would wonder if it counted.

My church doesn't do that. Of course the Church of State does essentially that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #30 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

OK, so temples then. More like being banned from Cathedrals and then some-

"Richard and Joan Ostling, and Hugh F. Pyle claim that the LDS's policy on temple admission is unreasonable, noting that even relatives cannot attend a temple marriage unless they are members of the church in good standing. The Ostlings, the Institute for Religious Research and Jerald and Sandra Tanner claim that the admission rules are unreasonable because admission to the temple requires that a church member must first declare that they pay their full tithe before they can enter a temple. The Mormonism Research Ministry calls this "coerced tithing" because church members that do not pay the full tithe cannot enter the temple, and thus cannot receive the ordinances required to receive the highest order of exaltation in the next life.
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critici...ter-day_Saints

Giving an honest tithe is a commandment, well documented in scripture, and only one of many things one must do to be worthy to enter the temple. For example, one must also have been baptized in the proper manner and with the proper authority.

I feel no pressure or coercion to tithe. I do it willingly.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #31 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Perhaps. But let me ask this: I give a lot to the church I attend. One of the main reasons I do this is because this church is pooling its considerable size and resources to do some great things locally and globally that we could not do individually. Does that count?

So an organization forcefully collecting resources is a good thing, and because of its large size and organizational ability, it can put those resources to better use than if individuals decided what specifically to do with their own charitable donation?

Sounds familiar.
post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Giving an honest tithe is a commandment, well documented in scripture, and only one of many things one must do to be worthy to enter the temple. For example, one must also have been baptized in the proper manner and with the proper authority.

I feel no pressure or coercion to tithe. I do it willingly.

Sounds familiar.
post #33 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So an organization forcefully collecting resources is a good thing, and because of its large size and organizational ability, it can put those resources to better use than if individuals decided what specifically to do with their own charitable donation?

Sounds familiar.

WTF? Where did you get that from my post?!?!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

WTF? Where did you get that from my post?!?!

It's not from your post. But it is absolutely analogous to "forceful" collection of taxes, which you've referenced ad nauseum.

If you want to be a Mormon, you absolutely have to tithe. There's no choice. Unless you're poor enough, perhaps. Then those funds are used collectively, decided by the bureaucracy of the Church exactly how, because that's a more efficient usage than using those funds individually.

If you want to be an American, you absolutely have to pay taxes. There's no choice. Unless you're poor enough. Then those funds are used collectively, decided by the bureaucracy of the country exactly how, because that's a more efficient usage than using those funds individually.

I simply cannot believe you see any difference in what's happening.
post #35 of 51
You've been brainwashed into thinking that the Church is good, government is bad. But... According to you, the Church gets it's authority from God, being totally and undeniably unaccountable. Government gets it's authority from the will of the people, and is accountable through the power of our vote. To me that's a far better thing.

And this...

You always claim we can't call you out on Prop 8 because you never mentioned how you would have voted. But some of those funds you 'willfully' provided to your church were used to push for Prop 8. So either you supported it, or you don't object to the fact that the 'government' of the Church gets to decide to use your money for things you disagree with. Exactly the argument you use to claim taxes are theft.
post #36 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Sounds familiar.

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post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's not from your post. But it is absolutely analogous to "forceful" collection of taxes, which you've referenced ad nauseum.

Well now you're just being ridiculous. Voluntary exchanges are not at all the same as forced exchanges.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I simply cannot believe you see any difference in what's happening.

I simply cannot believe you cannot see any difference in what's happening.


I'll give you a hint: One involves force, the other doesn't. Maybe you can take it from there.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #38 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If you want to be a Mormon, you absolutely have to tithe. There's no choice. Unless you're poor enough, perhaps. Then those funds are used collectively, decided by the bureaucracy of the Church exactly how, because that's a more efficient usage than using those funds individually.

If you want to be an American, you absolutely have to pay taxes. There's no choice. Unless you're poor enough. Then those funds are used collectively, decided by the bureaucracy of the country exactly how, because that's a more efficient usage than using those funds individually.

I simply cannot believe you see any difference in what's happening.

Here's the thing. If I don't want to be a Mormon anymore - or at least not a Mormon in good standing - I can stop paying tithing. I can "opt out". Sure, I won't be able to have all the "benefits" of being a member in good standing, but that's my choice.

If I decide I don't want to pay for someone else's education and stop paying taxes, the government sends armed thugs to my door to confiscate property, kidnap me, and put me in a cage.

The Mormon church doesn't do that to anyone. Even if they don't pay tithing.

That's the difference.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Here's the thing. If I don't want to be a Mormon anymore - or at least not a Mormon in good standing - I can stop paying tithing. I can "opt out". Sure, I won't be able to have all the "benefits" of being a member in good standing, but that's my choice.

If I decide I don't want to pay for someone else's education and stop paying taxes, the government sends armed thugs to my door to confiscate property, kidnap me, and put me in a cage.

The Mormon church doesn't do that to anyone. Even if they don't pay tithing.

That's the difference.

If you don't want to be an American, you can 'opt out'. Yeah, sure it's a lot harder once you've been be benefiting from the services provided to you as an American for many years, but you can do it.

Depending on your income level, you actually can opt out of paying US taxes and keep your citizenship, even if you're earning a decent living (definitely not rich), as long as you're paying the local taxes where you live. I don't pay US taxes, as I'm just below the income threshold, and I live very comfortably, TYVM.

No one is forcing you. To say you can't opt out is a lie. But if you want to live in the US, you pay the fucking taxes and shut up. The country was founded on the principle that citizens pay taxes. So do it, or leave the country and find somewhere else comfortable to live where you don't have to pay as much.
post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If you don't want to be an American, you can 'opt out'. Yeah, sure it's a lot harder once you've been be benefiting from the services provided to you as an American for many years, but you can do it.

My citizenship is contingent upon my allowance of the government to systematically plunder my property?

Quote:
Depending on your income level, you actually can opt out of paying US taxes and keep your citizenship, even if you're earning a decent living (definitely not rich), as long as you're paying the local taxes where you live. I don't pay US taxes, as I'm just below the income threshold, and I live very comfortably, TYVM.

You see no problem with the State forcibly removing property from others for your benefit?

Quote:
No one is forcing you. To say you can't opt out is a lie. But if you want to live in the US, you pay the [expletive] taxes and shut up.

I've seen what happens to people who 'opt out' of paying taxes. It's not pretty.

I want to live in a free society. I will not "shut up" until that comes to pass.

Quote:
The country was founded on the principle that citizens pay taxes. So do it, or leave the country and find somewhere else comfortable to live where you don't have to pay as much.

Really? That's funny, I thought the income tax was instituted in 1913. Unless you're saying that's when our country was founded?

I'd much rather the statists leave the country and go self destruct somewhere else so a prosperous, free, voluntary society can come about.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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