Samsung stalls, accuses Apple of doctoring evidence in US iPhone, iPad copying case - Page 3

Very interesting read, without getting into it too much, i have to say that when the samsung galaxy s came out, a guy i worked with bought one & 5 or 6 people asked him if it was an iPhone & not only that, he got it because he thought it looked like an iPhone that was cheaper.
With that in mind, it tells me that samsung clearly copied the iPhone design, we know samsung know what they are doing & are we honestly surprised by all the legal battles?.

the comments have been good too some really interesting opinions, lots of funny stuff like Menno getting owned repetitively & he still comes back, lots of straw grasping stuff, its made a fun read tho :P

just watched the youtube vid posted by Menno, pretty cool stuff, but that video clearly didn't have a working tablet, it was just a clipboard & they super imposed the animated screen over it.
i guess thats just as good as making a real tablet right ?

If there's anyone involved in this discussion who behaves like Glenn Beck, historically or in this thread, that would be you.

There is no point defending against the dead. There is nothing wrong with picking battles. Apple can and should go after those who can hurt Apple if they continue to disseminate products en masse with Apple's IP in them.

Further, we don't know if WebOS and Bada actually threaten Apple's IP as per the exact details of Apple's complaint.

Your'e just assuming things in a typical IANAL fashion.

Post of the freakin year. This is why I just can't understand how people could side with Android, and phones/ tabs like these Samsung rip-offs in any legal capacity.

To add to your comments about the iPad and all it's "mistakes", remember when the iPhone came out?
"It's to expensive to ever make it", "The screen will get smudges so no one will buy it", "won't make it because it doesn't have a hardware keyboard", blah blah blah

Or how about the AppStore. "It's not open" "Nobody will ever pay for apps", "Devs will never want to give up a percentage"

Like F'ing clock work though everybody and their dog is making a full screen phone with software keyboard, creating closed stores for their app delivery model.

If everything Apple does is so freaking obvious, why is Apple ALWAYS the first one to do it?

Whether it is relevant to their argument is beside the point. When you file such a document you make a statement that the contents are truthful to the best of your knowledge. If Apple knowingly put in false information, that is an act of perjury and their whole case could be tossed, or at least the injunctions. Even if the case stands, the court would likely be much stricter with them since they didn't pay nice.

That said, I suspect we have not been told the full truth and one of two things has happened

1. The photos presented as from the court document were 'shopped to make Apple look bad and get tons of hits by either the website or their source and are not what is in the original

2. The photos are there but some accompanying text that explains why has been left out. Again to paint a false image of Apple for the money such an article could create



Because their argument is that the app drawer was copied from the iOS home screen.

Trade dress complaints don't require strict like for like on elements. Which is why they can also include using a yellow flower for the photo gallery although it is not exactly the same yellow flower or background



IP actions and monopolies are cats and dogs. Not to mention that it is not illegal to have a monopoly. Only how you get it and what you do with it. Apple's mobile monopoly is due to one factor -- bloody awesome sales. That doesn't change if they do or don't protect their IP.

Now if they decided to require everyone that wants in iPhone etc in the future to get a Mac computer because they are going to support Windows anymore, that would be an abuse. Someone could perhaps argue that not having a Windows compat SDK so you have to get a Mac to develop apps is an abuse. Because they crossed market lines.

You're assuming that is is not acceptable to submit the evidence in such fashion. I would argue that it is permissible. By resizing the photos of the Samsung device the irrelevant factor of size is removed from the comparison, allowing observers to focus on the relevant question: are the Samsung devices purposefully designed to confuse customers and trade on Apple's designs? And, are they successful in doing so?

If size is irrelevant then surely resizing to make the comparison easier is acceptable.

Of course, it would be nice if they disclosed the resizing

I'm talking about Samsung slavishly copying Apple's look and feel, both in hardware and in software, when other manufacturers have not. You know... the topic of this article. Excuse me if I don't follow you off on your silly tangent.

Thompson

The reason is very simple. The law does not work that way. If you do not protect your patent you lose it.

What technology? Technology-wise Apple is 1-2 years behind Samsung. Apple is scared of competition. Samsung phones are far superior: 4G, dual core 1.2ghz processors, super amoled+ screens up to 4.5", NFC, newer Wi-fi, BT, Haptic feedback, SWYPE kyboard, thinner - all these results better usability.

As for "overall design" it's simple: does Apple have patent for a rectangular tablet design with 1" basel, rounded corners, home button in the middle lower part, and grid positioned application icons? It does not. No patent - no grounds for a law suite. The design is too simple/minimalistic to make the case without a patent. I see the device design is also a fashion/trend issue. For instance, some designer came up with bellbottoms: it became a fashion trend. Similar trends exist in industrial design, for that reason TVs and laptops now look the same.



Apple, stop whining, compete, innovate, make better phones: couple more phone models, bigger screens, more carriers, modern specs, innovative features, and more frequent releases. I want great american company to succeed even more. But for now I have no choice but pickup the amazing Galaxy S II next month:

Well, it is relevant because the app drawer is not the 'overall look and feel'.

size irrelevant? then I suppose TVs are also in breach of. whatever Apple claims?

Tell you what: you find me an Apple enthusiast that posts on Android sites with pictures of hardware, angry rebuttals to any intimation that the iOS doesn't rule and breathless love letters to Cupertino and I'll agree you aren't the most pathetic person on the internet.

Yea, right, sure, I am gonna run and "find you Apple enthusiast"!

Tell you what: if you would not challenge me to "find you" something, "I would agree you aren't the most pathetic person on the internet".

It makes sense to move fast and early, so you're not losing a much bigger fight later. It sends a message to the market. Apple is willing to fight for their 'design IP'. After all, most of their products don't say "Made by Apple" they say "Designed by Apple". Design is their core

And, you can't see that these are a direct mirror-copy of Apple's style? Now is exactly the time to push back. Stem the flood before it happens...

I just realized something…

Before Samsung was copying Apple's designs, they were copying Nokia's design style…!! The "Samsung phones before iPhone" could all easily be mistaken for Nokia handsets from the period…

The effect there is that we ultimately think there's nothing to really differentiate the handsets, and the market gets diluted.

I think Apple is smart getting in front of it now. Samsung can try to compete, but with devices that don't mimic every design detail of the iPhone/iPad…

What technology? Apple A5 dual-core SOC is pretty impressive just one thing among many Apple-designed innovations.

Come on, I remember phones before iPhone. iPhone was not the "natural progression" of the industry. It was a market-changing, market-defining leap forward, designed by Apple...


Full disclosure, please. Do you work for Samsung or one of its affiliates/beneficiaries?

Yes, the current market-tech is awesome but let Samsung apply it using THEIR style and designs not this flagrant imitation of Apple's style (although they do say imitation is the highest form of flattery).

I'd apply the same litany of complaints right back to Samsung stop whining and copying, and start innovating!

Presumption of intent is just assumption, not "fact". So these declarations are "made up" by you. I guess to you, they're as obvious as the designs in contention themselves, yes?

And I don't see anything about lawsuits extending to any and every android phone. Why are you talking about phones that don't look anything like the iPhone? This lawsuit doesn't. The core point of the lawsuit under discussion is the blatant copying of Apple's design, down to the small details; all the aggregate things taken together that make an iPhone and iPad a "unique product".

There may be other lawsuits underway that address specific underlying technologies and patents (and why would you have a problem with that? Patent violations are patent violations in any regard), but it isn't THIS one

I also see no mention anywhere of Apple pursuing "excessive damages", or blocking all opportunity for licensing. It's like you're almost making this stuff up, based entirely on presumption. Seriously...

No, it's cool, I get it. Desperately insecure about your choices, so much so that you have to actively seek out those that might chose differently so you can dance and yell.

But it's OK. Soon, your testicles will drop, and you'll get a place of your own, and you'll feel good enough about yourself to just do what you want without having to make sure everyone is watching.

Har! This one wins the prize for unintentional self-parody.

But I'll follow the Prof's advice: I won't take ANYTHING he says seriously...

It really kills you that Apple is so successful, and Android is a fraud. Android was criminal from the beginning - the company started out copying the Blackberry, with a million buttons and the other technology of the time. Than after the iPhone came out, they sold themselves to Google, and Google ditched the Blackberry-copy plans, and went full on ahead to copy the iPhone.

Do you really think for a minute that Samsung would make the phones and tablets they do if the iPhone had never happened? Do you really think Samsung (or HTC, or Motorola, or anyone else) would have come up with anything even close to what they produce now without the iPhone to copy?

There's absolutely do doubt Samsung copied the iPhone and iPad. There is always the question, though, of whether the courts will make them pay for it. You can argue the legal issues forever, but it's obvious Samsung blatantly copied Apple.

I can't understand why people are so angry. common guys let's enjoy life peacefully. You have 3 simples choices :
-You go with Apple and enjoy IOS if you think it's better.
-You don't like to be limited so you go with Samsung to have an Apple 'looklike' + Android goodness
-You don't like to be limited and in the same time you're tired of people thinking you're a appleuser wannabee, so you choose a true inovative Android experience -> HTC

I think everyone can be happy with one of these choices.

PS : Of course, I don't say Samsung should "copy" Apple's design.

You are misunderstanding quite a lot about technology here, but it's okay, I will walk you through it, and then you will understand.

First, you overstate your case, no one is "1-2 years" ahead of anyone in this market technology wise, but we can ignore that one.
Your excited. You were looking for emphasis. I understand.

The main thing you are missing here is that "technology" is not just a list of stuff that's in the phone. Good networking technology is not about whether it has 3G or 4G, it's about overall network performance and efficiency. It's not about whether it uses Wireless N versus Wireless G, it's again about overall performance and how the phone does the job that the consumers want it to do.

Secondly, even when it comes to the individual parts and assessment of those parts in isolation from the overall phone, it's again about performance and usability, not specs and numbers. For instance, gimmicky things like Haptic feedback or a Swipe keyboard that only appeal to a small group of consumers and actually get in the way of other consumers, are a net *negative*. This is actually "bad technology" (to use the simple terms you use).

Sure Samsung has good processors, but Apple's processors running at the same speed, run rings around them in terms of performance. The latest Samsung phone may have a faster processor than the latest Apple phone, but if it doesn't actually perform any faster, then it's not any better is it? Apples phones also get twice the graphic performance out of the same processor speed as a Samsung phone, so overall a Samsung phone *has* to be over two times faster just to compete with iOS.

Finally, on your list of specs that you think proves "better technology" you include things that Apple is not even considering implementing in their devices because they have already decided they are inferior user experiences. Apple is never going to put a superAMOLED screen in their phone because it simply isn't as good as the one they currently use. Apple isn't going to make their screens bigger, because they don't like using bigger screens and value a smaller phone more than they do copying their competitors. These kind of differences are more about different approaches to phone technology altogether and are not comparable.

There. Now don't you feel better? have you calmed down now? There is a good explanation for all of your points if you understand what technology is and how these things all work. I'd suggest taking a day off, and reading some books about technology so that you won't get so excited next time you misunderstand the issues.

Thanks for the fan mail but I don't see what your getting at.

I haven't compared any blog writers to fascists lately. I don't regularly froth at the mouth and I often admit mistakes etc. At the risk of arguing in circles, you are kind of doing the same thing I was criticising here in that your painting me with a brush better left for use on extremists.

I try to make reasoned arguments and not be biased or overly emotional.
Like all of us I fail sometimes. I then try to apologise.
I don't see Menno doing that ever.

Yeah, I don't think Menno understands the difference between a concept video and an actual design. He/she is also ignoring the fact that Apple themselves made concept videos like this showing similar things in the same sort of time frame.

I've been around a long time and I remember seeing stuff like this in the 1970's even. Just because you can visualise what the future might look like, it doesn't mean you invented it. There were also lots of similar concept treatments of space technology in the 1950's long before any of the technology to make it happen actually appeared.

Also every science-fiction story ever written is the same sort of thing. The author makes some logical informed guesses as to the shape of future technology. That doesn't mean that they invented it.

You're taking things DED writes way too seriously. I figured out months ago that much of his reputation is based on an act. He doesn't really believe everything he writes, which is plainly apparent if you read some of his older material from a few years ago and compare to now. At one time he had a much more realistic view of Apple and it's place in the industry. He even had a less critical view of Android once upon a time.

But if he didn't go over-the-top with some of his statements, no one would pay much if any attention to him. They gravitated here because of his act and the attention it brought. It doesn't mean he's serious about everything he blogs. Just ignore the way he says it. It's no biggie IMO..

hehe couldn't resist

On the contrary. Some of these result in reduced battery life - especially the 4G - with very little added benefit. 4G coverage is not up to snuff, so this feature does nothing for me. The processors, too, need to be compared on a benefit basis, not just specsmanship and numbers.


Trade dress cases are about trademarks and do not require patents. You seem to understand this because of what you say next...


Well, when I look at an iPhone and a Samsung Galaxy side by side, I not only see similar hardware forms (shape of unit, shape and location of buttons and speakers, sensors, etc) but I also see similar app grid layouts (rows and columns) as well as identical indicators of more "pages of apps", similar application docks (the four apps statically placed at the bottom), similar touch gestures (which WERE highly patented), and even virtually identical icons for certain applications, right down to content and color!

I can see how you want to divide and conquer each of these elements, but when you put them all together, there is no doubt that Samsung made a conscious choice to ape Apple's design. This did not occur at random, nor could it be said that it was obvious to the industry that all of these elements were the natural choice and Apple had simply evolved to them almost immediately. No other company has made devices that mimic Apple's design elements (both hardware and software) nearly so completely as Samsung's devices do.


Well the year old iPhone 4 is still the best selling smartphone in the world by a long margin. The unit rocks. The screen is great, the processor and graphics snappy, the battery life wonderful, and the OS about to receive a major upgrade. If making the better phone you seek means cramming in a bunch of stuff that doesn't improve my interaction (like 4G, since there is sparse coverage) at the expense of something I value, such as battery life or the convenient size (regarding your wish for a larger screen) then I am fine with Apple taking their time and releasing good useful upgrades on a yearly basis.

Thompson

That is because you cut out the quote where you did precisely the thing you were criticizing. Pretty transparent. And denying things you were never accused of puts the icing on the cake.



More unintentional self parody!

And were is it on iPhone? iPhone running very old tech. 1GHz A5 not impressive and already obsolete: Samsung Nexus Prime to be released this Fall will feature a 1.4 GHz Dual-Core ARM Cortex-A9, with 4.65" SuperAMOLED HD screen (1280x720 pixels). That is impressive.


Sure, Apple made huge impact on industry, but now it is riding the old success and marketing image. Company of that size and with that amount of cash can do little more for consumers. Apple became new microsoft.


I do not, I am just a consumer (you don't work for Apple either). But even if I do, what's the difference does it make? Still you did not make the case that Apple is ahead of even equal in technology.

"Desperately insecure about your choices, so much so that you have to actively" make personal attacks.

"But it's OK. Soon, your testicles will drop, and you'll get a place of your own, and you'll feel good enough about yourself".

BTW I have no "testicles". Did not they teach you in school that 50% people don't have testicles?

So how do you measure usability? I say that my phone has better usability if:
less dropped calls, fast data, fast multitasking, removable storage/battery flexibility, big screen to accommodate cursor keys and provide better browsing, good screen viewing angles including outdoor, and no antenna issues.


You trying to say that old Samsung processor has worse graphic performance vs. current Apple processor. Wow!
No let's look at the current performance Apple vs. current Samsung:




No, because Apple does not want pay higher fees to Samsung for this screen. But never say "never".


How do you know? You don't sound quite like Steve Jobs.


"Have you calmed down now? I'd suggest taking a day off, and reading some books about technology so that you won't get so excited next time you misunderstand the issues."

Windows tablets have always looked and felt exactly like the iPad



And, just look at all these Android tablets that came before the iPad:


In all seriousness, the people who whine about Apple "not competing" and shit are really, secretly thankful for Apple's iPad bringing real competition to the otherwise lackluster and boring and up-until-iPad, largely niche tablet market. The complainers know that Apple is the ONLY manufacturer that's shaking things up. They won't admit it on this forum, but deep down inside, they know it to be true.

Don't like it?

------> door

So if I was walking down the street and randomly punched you in the face, you would be the aggressor because the reason I did it was because I "knew" you were going to attack me?

Time to drop your flawed line.

I don't want manufacturer to decide what I need. Let me, the consumer to have 4G option and ability to decide how to manage my 4G usage. Also a simple app can manage 4G usage automatically. AMOLED screens on the other hand use less battery.
Also battery on Galaxy is higher capacity: it has lower power consumption while offering faster processor, bigger screen, replaceable battery and thinner form factor. Here are the official manufacturer battery usage numbers:
iPhone 4
Talk time: 7hrs; Standby: 300hrs

Galaxy II S
Talk time: 9hrs; Standby: 620hrs



Usually trademark is used to protect brad name or logo. Yes, sometimes design could also be protected by trademark, but legally it would be dicey.



"Best selling" does not mean the best. Windows OS is best selling, so is Coca Cola.

My iPhone 3GS ATT reception/data speed was terrible. The screen was too small. Hard to type on small keyboard, no cursor keys. iPhone screen is not as good in daylight as AMOLED screens. Battery was not any better then my current EVO 4G which has higher capacity replaceable battery.
iPhone is overall is a good phone, but there are much better phones.

I will probably skip the Galaxy II S and wait for the October release of Nexus Prime with 4.65" Super AMOLED HD 1280 x 720 sceen, even faster processor and Schneider Kreuznach camera lenses:
http://yourmobilesite.net/samsung-pl...me-in-october/

You know something, despite all that fancy stuff you go on about...

IT STILL LAGS

...I've been selling them for a couple of months.

Oh and btw, if you sit one next to an iPhone 4 on a table, it's actually thicker...

...that's due to the bumps at the bottom and surrounding the camera.

And so you CAN choose a non-iPhone. I have no problem with that. I just think you're at risk of being fooled by useless specs.


You're quoting me talk time and standby numbers as if this is only a phone?!?! Where are the numbers when you use this beast for REAL tasks? Those numbers are available from real reviewers for the iPhone, and probably from other gear too. Get yourself a simple phone if all you want is talk and standby.



That's ALL you can say in response to my demonstration of Samsung's singularly thorough copying of iPhone design elements?!?! No denial, no debate? Just the response that it would be tough to win in a court of law? Well, fair enough I suppose. You tacitly acknowledge by omission that all these things are evidence of copying, not independent evolution of design to what it must be. The case is before the courts now. Let's see who prevails.


Microsoft won a long time ago because it was by far the cheapest solution. Hardly applies to iPhone today. Coca-cola is best selling because more people think it tastes best. The latter is a VERY appropriate analogy. Thank you.


I have no problem, and I am as large as a troglodyte.


Battery technology has advanced a long way since your old iPhone 3GS. The iPhone 4 is awesome compared to the industry when using the smartphone for things other than talk, even without your vaunted AMOLED screen. I am in direct sunlight right now, typing on an iPhone without difficulty. You have reached conclusions based on old tech.


The iPhone is the Coca-cola, and there isn't even a Pepsi. Just a dozen "Diet Rite"s or "RC"s that happen to outsell Coke if you tally their numbers together. And you can't even blame the price. It just tastes better to most people and isn't even available yet to some. Facts, Jack.


Enjoy those numbers, dude. Good luck with support.

Thompson

Since there is no manufacturer specs, reviewers numbers may vary depending on type of test. Sure straight 4G usage would use more battery vs. 3G but probably not by much due to a Galaxy's higher battery capacity. But straight 4G usage would not happen anyway, since Galaxy can manage 4G usage automatically just like hybrid car manages use of gasoline. So at the end Galaxy would have very comparable battery time for mixed use (calls, texting, music, web, day, night, work, home). In any case, choice of 4G options which can be always turned off is better then no option.



No, I did not "acknowledge copying", though I would say that Samsung design is heavily influenced by Apple. But I would not say it's copied. Samsung curves are slightly different, 4 buttons instead of 1, back shape is different, front basel is different size. Grid icon layout has been used on mobile and desktop devices forever, including Palm, Psion, Windows CE, Windows desktop, Xerox Star.




Also, what I am saying is that it is much harder to copyright art (industrial design, form factor) and then even harder to prove a copyright violation. There are also different types of copyright: in some cases it is completely legal not even resemble but even "copy". But if court decides that Apple trademark/copyright was violated: so be it and Samsung shell pay the price. But this is a 2-way street: Samsung sues Apple as well for other alleged violations.

iPad design is based on iPhone design (industrial art/form factor) which is 4 years old. This is old news and nothing significant came since from Apple. Since then Apple made no innovations and Apple is just playing catch game trying to reinvent copy/paste, multitasking, etc.

You are being disingenuous in this debate. Here you talk about 4 buttons and display a junky Samsung phone that is not part of the case. Further up the page you displayed a soon-to-be-released Samsung Galaxy S II, which is more like the line of phones that Apple is suing over and has one button on the front face - not 4. You also mention that the "grid layout" of icons has been used before, but nothing about the number of rows/columns, indicator dots of other pages, four icon "dock" at bottom, methods of how to get to those other pages, and content and color of the icons (e.g. phone app). These elements were all copied from iPhone, and Apple's suit is a trade dress suit that they will most likely win, if only in that Samsung will change some of these elements. (You know, "innovate" a design of their own to "compete" with Apple's.)

I could say more about your argument regarding battery life, but I realize that if you are willing to pull the image stunt above, then I am wasting my time. You are a fraud to me.

Good day.

Thompson