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Microsoft exec says PC 'not even middle-aged,' rejects post-PC label - Page 6

post #201 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

So you are saying the difference is HOW is it being MARKETED, rather HOW is it different in concept.

That's not enough of a good argument.

Try this: What makes the difference on the ipad is the OS (iOS), mouse and kb aren't there -- and don't get between you and your stuff!;

When you go to the fridge to get crushed ice for your drink -- you don't want to turn on the fridge, wait for it to come ready, think about what you want to do, what the fridge needs know so it can do what you want...

You just walk up, maybe flip a switch, and shove your glass in a hole in the door, to get your ice -- you don't think about it, you just do it and move on...

...Be sure and set the switch back when you're through (and later, remember to put the lid down, too)


Get out of the way and let me get to my stuff!! Or, I don't want to adjust to the computer's needs -- I want the computer to adjust to my needs.

That approach is enough to satisfy the computer needs of the vast majority of the world's population.

When viewed from that perspective, the current install base of pcs seems rather small -- important, yes, but rather small.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #202 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

iOS is a total re-imaginging of the interface. While there are core technologies and API's that are shared between Mac OSX and iOS, the user interface elements and overall design of the system is unique to iOS. Insinuating that it's about "just cutting excess fat while keeping the essentials" just demonstrates that you really are completely clueless as to why iOS is taking off and Windows tablets are still going nowhere.

Yes, there are areas of overlap - but iOS verses what Microsoft has stated for Windows 8 tablet or whatever they are going to name it and what Google has delivered for Android are two entirely different things!



Your still hung up on technology! Whether it's a PC or not is irrelevant! And really, whether it runs Windows, Mac OS, iOS, or Plan 9 is irrelevant. The iPad and iPhone are about the experience.

The computer for the rest of us.

It's not just a cheesy phrase (and nor is it "just marketing"). If it does work without people having to think of it as a computer - that's sizzle! My father couldn't care less that the iPad runs iOS written by Apple. What he cares about is he can pick it up and the thing immediately makes sense. It does meaningful work without forcing him to adapt to the technology. He doesn't have to learn mice, windows, file systems or any other such gobbledygook. He can put it down, pick it up and pick up right from where he left off. All the information and "files" he wants are always available, at his fingertips, where he expects them. There are no surprises. It's very predictable.

It's not a science project or tech for the sake of tech.

So you can argue about PC, Post PC, real computer, consumption device, media tablet, marketing - whatever inside baseball circle jerk floats your boat. Guess what he doesn't care! The iPad is here, he has it, it does all he wants without getting in the way and for that he loves it.

And he is not alone, nor is he in the minority. We are.

So there. I don't know how else I can explain it. If you still don't get it it, oh well - I tried. Protest all you want - it's irrelevant. The market is speaking and it's just getting started. With iCloud, Apple is getting ready to tie a bow on the the true meaning of hassle and "PC-free" computing. This is just the warm up...

Very well reasoned response! Watching this running discussion (battle) -- your opponent is clearly in retreat. He's just trying to throw meaningless obstacles in your path -- like bombing bridges or burning the fields. But this will neither slow your (the iPad's) advance nor change the outcome.

The war is lost! HP realizes that! Unfortunately (for themselves) many, like your opponent will not admit that to themselves -- they'd rather just debate the meaning of words,
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #203 of 253
Of course PCs are going to be around for a very long time and Apple knows that or they would have called PCs dinosaurs and not "trucks". A PC, in a typical sense, passed the threshold of what the home user needed a long time ago I think "home user" is a more apt wording than "normal person". We all work and we use PCs for specialized tasks. When we're not working though we use our devices to surf, comment, email, play games, and write a few pages. If you think of the obstacles that the tablet has here, you'll probably agree that they aren't insurmountable. Power? They'll get more powerful. Larger screen? They could be paired with a monitor. Keyboard? You don't always need one, but where you do there could be a paired one waiting, but for many the touch screen is fine.

If you start thinking like this, then there's no reason why a tablet can't replace all of our computers. It really is a touch screen computer that can be used with or without peripherals. They can be used on our laps or standing up or lying down or at a table. It's the most flexible computer because they took away everything but the display (the only thing there's no substitute for) and made every other part of this PC is optional. As far as portability goes, a tablet is better than a laptop. I've seen a few people carrying a tablet like a book but no one carries their laptop without a bag.

The largest hangup is the software and I think that is more about the failure of imagination than a tablet's inability to evolve. We think of PCs because we use things like sub versioning, or VPN, or file systems. I think this is where Apple is thinking that the OS (both Mac OS and iOS) needs to evolve to. We shouldn't need to think of SVN or VPN if files are always in the cloud. File systems aren't necessary if your files are always near. We don't work when we do the the minutia of current computing. We work when we get there *when we are being creative, writing, calculating, thinking.
post #204 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbarriault View Post

I don't think Jobs ever meant the PC was dead or anything close to the term with the "Post-PC era" description. He likened PCs to pickup trucks, which is very apt. Trucks still at the forefront of development, they have the highest profit margins amongst product lineups, there will never come a time where they will not be needed, and they are still the best-selling vehicles in the world. But they don't, haven't in a long time, and likely never will capture people's attention like cars do, and the same is true of PCs.

Exactly. He meant that you might still need a big pickup truck - like, say the new generation MacBook Air with Thunderbolt storage and a monitor? - for the heavy lifting.

And just for fun comparison, my old Mac Pro 2.66x4 (2006) scored 5202 on Geekbench, the new 1.8GHz i7 Air 11" scores 5795. I'm running a newer Pro tower that scores a bit over 20,000 for 3d rendering work and huge Photoshop files, but the fact that the AIR is as fast as my old tower is pretty astonishing - and that was used for a lot of heavy work. 1/4 the speed of the current 12-core at what, 1/20th the weight?, is just fantastic.
post #205 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum

I don't believe that Apple wants to reveal the file system on iOS -- they want to reveal less of the file system. For example, ~/Library is hidden in OS X Lion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I think to some extent that's true but the "All My Files" default in Lion is quite telling and ties in with what you are saying about metadata. I think they understand that files need to exist independently of applications but don't want to impose the burden of file management on the user so they are trying to figure out how to do it cleanly.

An application-centric filesystem won't work forever because it's not something you can bring to a desktop environment and the more that files build up, the harder it is to control.

Apple already has a mini filesystem browser for certain media types, which can be seen in iMovie for the iPad - skip to 3:30:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL3PslgN4Mw

You can see an issue straight away and that is that when you have so much media, you have to scroll through hundreds of items every single time to open a file. Not only that, you can't reference movie clips by name so you have to search every time. The range-based key wording in FCPX would help here of course but requires you to do tag management i.e pick unique keywords.

A hierarchy gives you some help in that every single file must have a unique location but managing this on a touch device would need planning.

I like the media browser in iOS and if it had a documents area, that would help cover other file types e.g eps vector files. But to stop it getting out of hand, I think they need another layer. Something like 'projects' where you can group multiple data types together. This way if you work on a movie, you can create a project metadata entity on its own independent of an app e.g 'Holiday in Italy'. Then you can tag footage with this project id along with your photos and possibly music that you think will suit.

In iMovie, you'd then be able to narrow down your metadata by project so that it's nowhere near as tedious to search through files. Multiple select would help though so you don't have to tag items one by one and this can be done with tap-hold like in Mail.

Ha! I was going to use FCPX to illustrate that Apple appears to be experimenting with "hiding" the file system...

But my post was getting too long, lunch was ready...

Here're are my unposted comments:

What Apple appears to be doing is repurposing the file system by:

1) identifying files by when they were created -- regardless of what they are, every file has a creation date.

2) organizing files into "smart collections" -- where the files are categorized by metadata (names, keywords, content) -- regardless of where the files are actually stored or which Apps are used to create and manipulate them.

3) providing efficient, intuitive means of locating and accessing the files -- without needing to know or care how the OS's file system handles them


Let's see if an example helps:

If you've used iPhoto, you've, likely, used Events, Places and Faces.

-- Events are based on the date/time the photo was taken (camera metadata), the date the picture file was imported, and/or manual entry of dates, and/or msnusl combining or splitting of events.

-- Places, similarly, are based on metadata (when available) or manual categorization.

-- Face identity is a manual operation with the application assisting -- first by identifying what it think are the faces in a picture, then by suggest that a face in a picture may be a certain person (based on how you have manually categorized previous faces).

This is great within iPhoto --- you can find all the pictures of "Lucy" from "1997" in "Tucson".

Wouldn't it be great if you could just "spotlight search" for that -- well you can... but you won't find anything useful (an XML file, if you're lucky).

The problem is that much of the metadata belongs to the app not the file system -- it is unavailable outside of iPhoto.


Now, FCPX has a richer, more robust example -- though it, too is within the app, rather than within the file system


I also used a video to illustrate using a [potential] file system of the future:

It is totally FCPX, so you have to mentally abstract the video to apply to files, their content, the file system in general -- and, most importantly how do you get to the stuff you want... quickly and easily.

Have a look (I'll show you mine if you show me yours) at:

MacBreak Studio: Episode 129 - Projects, Events & Importing in FCPX

I was going to try to find a point to start watching... But the whole thing is worthwhile.


What it shows is that the computer can do some very heaving lifting helping the user categorize files (in this case video) by analyzing them and creating metadata and smart collections -- providing the user easy access.

While you are importing files [video] from a camera:

1) you can start working with them immediately (before they are imported

2) in the background the file system can examine and the files and generate metadata and smart collections

3) things analyzed and identified are:
-- videos needing color adjustment
-- videos needing camera shake or roll adjustment
-- videos needing sound correction (camera hum, wind/background noise)
-- videos containing a person or groups of people
-- close-ups, mediums and wide shots.

Any given clip can appear in all the smart collections above -- and those defined below.

While browsing clips or subclips (think paragraphs in a WP doc, or a slide in a slide show or keynote preso) you can tap a command-key combination to assign the item a keyword and, therefore assign it to a smart collection. You get to assign the command keys and the keywords -- and multiple keywords can be assigned to an item -- without stopping the action.

Later, when other video (files) are imported -- the will be tested against the parameters of a;; existing smart collections -- and included in them accordingly.

A smart collection I can be a living, growing entity
A video clip (file) only exists in one place but can exist (be pointed to) in many smart collections.

You really don't need to know (or care) where a file is -- as long as you can easily get to it.


To me, this capability should be in the OS and generalized to include all apps/file content.

Maybe Apple bought Siri to augment the OS file system as well as Internet search.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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post #206 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

This quote made me laugh:
The company is betting that, over time, PCs, tablets and smartphones will come together into a "unified ecosystem."

Over time?? This is a "prediction"? How about now! OSX and iOS desktops/laptops + phone/tablet in a 'unified ecosystem'

They describe what Apple is already doing, phrase it as something yet to come, and try to take ownership of it...

It's like 'predicting' the weather a few hours after it happens, and then claiming you were right about it...

After the competing weatherman actually predicted it correctly ahead of time.

Definitely funny after seeing so many 'iPad is teh FAIL!' comments from the PC crowd to have HP bail from the competition and acknowledge that the iPad is causing huge turmoil and have Windows Phone 7 and Windows 8 trying to copy (with an apparent lack of understanding) to capture the same magic. Whether people agree with Jobs' 'magical' moniker, it's certainly been a game changer for easy and convenient computing and clearly has the industry in a state of panic.

Apple II, Mac, NeXT, iPod, iPhone, iPad... Other companies wish they had a leader with 1/100th the vision and understanding of Steve. What an amazing legacy.
post #207 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagladry View Post

Ever notice Ballmer'd response to a New Apple technology the MS does not posess?

iPod- Who's goin' to pay 400 bucks. There are plenty of MP3 players. We aren't concerned

iPhone- Who's goin' to pay 400 bucks for one of those things. We aren't concerned.

iPad- Who's goin' to pay 500 bucks for one of those things. We aren't concerned.

Then later... We are not in a post PC world, we are in a PC plus world. We aren't concerned.

Seems like he he could do more market research. Seems like people are willing to pay X bucks for products what Apple sells.

Shouldn’t be concerned? Why doe MS list Apple and Google as there two biggest threats to the well being of MS. maybe BS, oh, i mean SB could read his own company's 10-K statement.

Ballmer is secretly very concerned. He has his people working overtime trying to catch up:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/29/tech...ex.htm?iid=EAL
He also seems pretty dumbstruck over the success of the iPad. It's clear he doesn't get it.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #208 of 253
Microsoft needs to stop sniffing glue. As long as they deny the shift in the industry (first with Netbook then iPhone and now tablets) they'll be becoming irrelavant. They'll probably miss the next wave too (the uber AppleTV).
post #209 of 253
A long time ago there was a PC market, the only company still existing today from that era is Apple. There was another market known as the Workstation market. Near the end of the PC era 1.0 along came a range of companies that made low cost workstations. They destroyed the Workstation market with only IBM and HP surviving, SGI is the only highend maker who marginally survived without dropping into the low cost.

The iPad is the start of the PC 2.0 era. I suspect we will see a desktop iOS device soon enough, currently mistaken as a HDTV in the rumors.

There are no Windows OEM's that made personal computers.

I doubt anyone will read this so late in the thread but thought I'd write it anyway as a voice of fact amongst the wails of fanboys from every quarter.
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post #210 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

Look like you are the type that would buy a Moto Xoom, because they have more ram, dual core processor, multitask, and runs Flash but end up under performing iPad2 in every possible benchmark.

If you iPad fans are all about the "experience", why are you mentioning a technical measurement like "benchmarks"?

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #211 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Another way to say this - I bring him up for perspective.

Stop your tech-oriented naval-gazing, look up and realize there is a wide, wide world out there of all kinds of users with all kinds of requirements.

It's not all about us techies. Or at least it shouldn't be - for that I am thankful there is at least one company, in Apple, that is willing to buck industry trends, ignore the tech elite, and design devices exclusively targeted at end users.

Because at the end of the day, I enjoy being an end user and having access to stuff that just works and I don't have to think about too! I like that I can be a tech and a "normal user" if I want to be. Choice - real choice, not artificially defined idealism like "open" - is good!


To take another analogy:

You would rather sit in an automated electric powered vehicles that would get you from point A to point B.

I'm the type that like to row my own gears, hear the roar of pistons spinning at 9000rpms, feel the vibration, the smells and being "one" with the machine that I am driving. I fear the day when transportation becomes automated.

I am, what they say, a "purist".

To me, its not the end that matters, its the means of getting there that does.

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #212 of 253
The thing is that he's not entirely wrong.

I think however the PC is going to move more from the traditional role and more into a server type role.

For example take something like iMovie. iMovie is a great tool for a home user and on the mobile platform it is great for rough edits but it still needs to have a more powerful system for fancier edits. Now what if iMovie as an application ceased to exist but became iMovie server whereby the iPad or iPhone could do rough edits on the fly but get it home to the iMovie server and the movie is automatically uploaded to the server via WiFi and the interface suddenly shows a few more options that are thus handled by the server. Make it run on all versions of the iPad and you'd have a sweet little mobile video suite. (iPad 1 would obviously take the video using the camera connector kit).

This setup could be applied to everything including Garageband, Pages, Numbers, etc and would completely alter the way we interact with computers.

I believe this strategy could very well be in the works with Mac OS X Server being reduced to consumer affordability and with things like the Mac mini Server.

PCs will never die but our interaction with them will change.
post #213 of 253
6 pages into the topic and only three discernible groups of people....

Group 1: Microsoft employees are demented transgenic monkey-goats and their company draws power from the tears of flagellated Romanian orphans.

Group 2: No, I don't agree with you. This is what a PC is/the device that people want...

Group 3: I don't care what Microsoft has the say because iPad is so magical and/or Jobs' brilliance makes my pee pee tingle.
post #214 of 253
The real meaning of "Post-PC" is not that PCs won't be built, made, or sold. It's not that many people won't have them. It's not that businesses will just buy iPads.

The idea is that the PC has downgraded.

For a decade, Apple sold the idea of the Digital Hub - where the PC became the center focus. Content on your TV, your cameras, your phones, ect all hooked up to the PC.

Now, with advancements like iCloud and iOS, we've moved past that. Now, the PC (be it Mac OS X, Linux or Windows) is just one more way to access your information. You might check the news on your iPad, your facebook account on a connected TV, and write a letter on your PC. However, just as easily, you could write your letter on the iPad, check your facebook on your PC and check the news on your TV. Or just as easily write your letter on the connected TV, Facebook on your iPad and news on your PC.

The information is the important part, not the device used to access it.

Now I agree, right now, content generation is going to be the PC's biggest use. However, we don't know how far technology will go. In 2001 we were still awed by the ideas of the iPod. Did anyone see the iPad coming from it?

Right now, Apple is positioning the PC as just another device - rather then the central one. One day, as our devices grow in power, maybe we'll find the box of parts or the funky thick LCD monitor might not be needed.
post #215 of 253
Middle-aged? Well it's been around for 30 years, so middle-aged would mean it's dead and buried by 2041. I certainly hope that's the case! By then I would expect computer interfaces to be way beyond the keyboard and mouse.
post #216 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Middle-aged? Well it's been around for 30 years, so middle-aged would mean it's dead and buried by 2041. I certainly hope that's the case! By then I would expect computer interfaces to be way beyond the keyboard and mouse.

Lol. You know that'll be the case right!
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post #217 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Middle-aged? Well it's been around for 30 years, so middle-aged would mean it's dead and buried by 2041. I certainly hope that's the case! By then I would expect computer interfaces to be way beyond the keyboard and mouse.

You somehow think Humanity is going to jettison it's appendages? Seriously now, tactile feel isn't going to be replaced any time soon, and has it's advantages to some outlandish idea of neural implants and thought processing as an interface.
post #218 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

You somehow think Humanity is going to jettison it's appendages? Seriously now, tactile feel isn't going to be replaced any time soon, and has it's advantages to some outlandish idea of neural implants and thought processing as an interface.

Unless perhaps, they come to pass. \
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post #219 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

If you iPad fans are all about the "experience", why are you mentioning a technical measurement like "benchmarks"?

Trust me I don't care about the spec sheet, but I care deeply about benchmark on responsiveness and usability.
post #220 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Middle-aged? Well it's been around for 30 years, so middle-aged would mean it's dead and buried by 2041. I certainly hope that's the case! By then I would expect computer interfaces to be way beyond the keyboard and mouse.

I remember someone saying that technology should be countd in dog years

Things will certainly evolve. Even the desktops and laptops became different animals after th were connected to the Internet in terms of usage.

What I can predict is that more appliances live TVs will get their content from IP sources, and things like connected security systems, thermostats climate control will be commonplace. The technology is already there but not as well refined yet.

I can see a big need for a home server fairly soon
post #221 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintstryfe View Post

For a decade, Apple sold the idea of the Digital Hub - where the PC became the center focus... Now, the PC (be it Mac OS X, Linux or Windows) is just one more way to access your information.

Like "Post PC-centric" right?

It's doesn't conflict with your point (that I happen to agree with) but it seems to me that Microsoft's point isn't that they believe the world will remain PC-centric (they have been facilitating the shift of a users digital life from the PC to the cloud for at least the last 5 years) but that the PC can evolve into a device that can be the best device to use for the majority in the "Post PC-centric" world.

People would argue that would make the PC no longer a PC... which is just one of the fantastic reasons this post has reached 6 pages of comments
post #222 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granmastak View Post

I can see a big need for a home server fairly soon

Ah the iHub. My pet ramble for close to a year now.

I'd love to see someone do this right.
post #223 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Ah the iHub. My pet ramble for close to a year now.

I'd love to see someone do this right.

Maybe that someone will eventually be sued by someone with the handle Firefly7475
post #224 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Ah the iHub. My pet ramble for close to a year now.

I'd love to see someone do this right.

We've both done a lot of posts on a home server -- and we mostly agree in its definition and function.

I think the storage part of the equation is here -- just not the server.

I put together the "home server" part of the iHub over several years -- using a Mac Mini and external HDDs.

The first really big HDD I bought was in April 2006:

Qty\t \tProduct\tStock Status\tPrice\tTotal
1\t \t2TB Bigger Disk Extreme USB 2.0, FireWire 400 & FireWire 800 External Drive\t$1,749.00\t


This month I got a Pegasus RAID:

PROMISE PEGASUS R6 12TB-CAF $1,999.00


That's 12 TB RAID or about 10 TB actual data storage for $250 more than I spent for 2TB, 5 years ago,

You can get a 4TB Pegasus for $999.


The Pegasus is Thunderbolt only -- so I am considering replacing last year's Mini with a Thunderbolt model.


What I'd really like, though, is an AppleTV-like box, with Thunderbolt, dedicated to the job of home server and staging intermediary to the cloud.


As I've posted elsewhere, the Pegasus is a wonderful piece of kit -- easily looks like it could have been made by Apple.

So, c'mon Apple, lets supply the missing link.

Edit: Yeah Apple -- and let me use a WiFi iPad to control this headless beast.
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- Michael Lille -
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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post #225 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

To take another analogy:

You would rather sit in an automated electric powered vehicles that would get you from point A to point B.

I'm the type that like to row my own gears, hear the roar of pistons spinning at 9000rpms, feel the vibration, the smells and being "one" with the machine that I am driving. I fear the day when transportation becomes automated.

I am, what they say, a "purist".

To me, its not the end that matters, its the means of getting there that does.

"Purist", huh?

Then why aren't you mining your own iron and casting and machining your own car parts? You should be raising cattle and tanning your own leather for the seats. Get yourself a rubber tree and make your own tires......

Let me know how that works out for you. :roll eyes:


There's nothing wrong with preferring a manual transmission. Or a car that corners well rather than a comfortable luxury car. Or an energetic vehicle rather than a vehicle that just gets you from A to B. But what makes that more 'pure'? You're simply confusing your personal preference with 'better'. It's not 'better', it's just your preference.

Similarly, there's nothing better about a phone that can be hacked a million ways or that allows the user access to the internals. It's just different, not better.
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post #226 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

To take another analogy:

You would rather sit in an automated electric powered vehicles that would get you from point A to point B.

I'm the type that like to row my own gears, hear the roar of pistons spinning at 9000rpms, feel the vibration, the smells and being "one" with the machine that I am driving. I fear the day when transportation becomes automated.

I am, what they say, a "purist".

To me, its not the end that matters, its the means of getting there that does.

The thing is, engine noise, gasoline and stick shifting are not an integral part of being one with a car. You aren't a purist, you simply have a sentimental attachment to the past. The means of getting there aren't what matter, it's the journey itself that is important.

EDIT: This, by the way, is the future of cars, performance or otherwise: http://www.teslamotors.com/models.
post #227 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

The thing is, engine noise, gasoline and stick shifting are not an integral part of being one with a car. You aren't a purist, you simply have a sentimental attachment to the past. The means of getting there aren't what matter, it's the journey itself that is important.

I was thinking the same thing. I can see Galbi sitting on a porch being a curmudgeon, resenting the present and always talking about the past.

Galbi... my Grandfather talked about being an automobile "purist" as you call it... he'd constantly grumble when he saw young guys with their muscle cars in the late 60s, "When I had my first car you had to know something about them. They didn't just start themselves. You had to crank them. You'd have to wear goggles or you'd get bugs in your eyes. The roads weren't paved; sometimes we'd have to have tractors pull us along the main roads."

Well... you enjoy the past. I may be an old fart now but I'm certainly going to move forward.
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post #228 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

You somehow think Humanity is going to jettison it's appendages? Seriously now, tactile feel isn't going to be replaced any time soon, and has it's advantages to some outlandish idea of neural implants and thought processing as an interface.

I certainly would not want to lose any of my appendages. But maybe writing as such will become a Truck, and many places in life will just be touch screens with icons.
post #229 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

You somehow think Humanity is going to jettison it's appendages? Seriously now, tactile feel isn't going to be replaced any time soon, and has it's advantages to some outlandish idea of neural implants and thought processing as an interface.

Outlandish?!?

BMI (brain machine interface) has been around for a while now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBWv3XmGnGs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ-HD...eature=related

It might not replace anything any time soon... but it has arrived in earnest and in 20 years I'm sure it will be mainstream.
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post #230 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

To put it short and sweet - Frank Shaw is right on the money.

Tablets and Smartphone are brilliant and all that Jazz, but I can't exactly write a 10k research paper on an iPad. I can sure as hell try but it would pail in comparison to a fully fledged Desktop or Notebook Personal Computer.

I know HP have pulled the plug, but that does't mean death to all machines with a physical keyboard on a desk either (this includes notebooks).

I've always thought the idea of "Post-PC" was complete bollocks. If I may be so blunt. These mobile devices are complimentary devices to quickly consume data along with your banana muffin in Starbucks. It is completely illogical to say personal computers are out the door - if thats the case then why do I still own a Desktop Computer (iMac) when my "almighty" iPad is sitting downstairs on the coffee table? I'll give you a hint - "Coffee Table".

And you have just demonstrated the embedded user syndrome I referred to in another thread. Typewriters initially were problematic to the extreme. With refinement and increasing useability you moved from the early hard types to the IBM selectrics - I know I'm part of the evolution. But they became a mainstay of every office and professional scenario, at least until dedicated word-processing systems and then the mmore ubiquitous PC came on the scene. When was the last time you saw a typewriter in a friend's home? How about at the office?

Same thing with the PC. 70% of the market or more on the consumer side don't use 1/10th of the capability of their desktop or laptop. Read that again - 70% of the consumer market. The remaining 30% are those whose use of a PC is upwards of that 1/10th - professionals of many stripes, and largely because the application coding is built around a common hardware reference point. Look at what AutoDesk hase been doing to support utilization of the iPad - certainly not a replacement for a MacPro or WinPC running AutoCad, but it points to developers re-thinking how apps operate. This is still in its infancy.

Ironically the people who use more of their PC's capability are also those who tend to insist on seeing the post-PC commentary as declaring the death of the PC, not as Steve Jobs ACTUALLY said, the return of the PC to specialized use - as in professional use cases. The vast, larger majority of current PC users will move on to light-weight powerful mobile devices, that will increasingly have better capability, capacity and ease of use, while the professionals continue to use the "pickup truck" PC to leverage that additional power and capacity.

So no it's not as you so quaintly (and bluntly) put, "bollocks". YOU may require a PC to do what you NEED to do, but the vast majority of users don't and will live wonderfully on the increasingly capable mobile devices. For example, I use a VDI session at work for most of my computing desktop needs. I remote into that same desktop from home, and even have direct secured access via my iPhone to our systems. These are configured to support a custom app on my iPhone to allow me to rapidly assess and respond to systems issues without relying on my desktop. Moreover, because I am not depending on the remote-VDI desktop-system client connection, the response is quicker and easier to manage. That's just in supporting critical core technologies for a Fortune 50 company.

And ultimately you, benanderson89, may be either a professional whose livelihood is tethered to a desktop application or set of applications, or you may simply be one of those people who is temperamentally locked into the desktop/laptop paradigm and cannot see your way into the new paradigm. That's alright and of course to regard your iPad as "almighty" is just plain silly. SO relax. Your beautiful iMac is not going anywhere, the PC is not dead as so many have misconstrued Jobs' commentary, but if all you are relying on your PC for is to write a simple 10k paper, I would say you are vastly under-utilizing your PC. As someone who has literally grown up with computing technology, I am (as a person of, ummm, advanced experience shall we say) always surprised at the amount of resistance there is among those of us in technology (much younger than I as well) to the advances of technology. I fear we have created a generation or two of people who are not capable, or worse unwilling, to look forward and seek to understand where technology can grow. Perhaps my generation was the last of the "pioneering" generations, the rest coming after are "empire" generations whose desire is only to maintain status quo. Which would be very sad indeed.
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post #231 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwatz0n View Post

Let's be real here, folks. No matter how much Apple Kool-Aid you drink, PCs, in any form (remember that Macs are PCs too), aren't going anywhere for a long while. People who do real work, in any field (film production, music composition, web site and application development, graphics work, the list goes on) require the basic idea of a desktop (laptop, desktop, all in one) in order to get things done. Without a mouse and keyboard and multi-window user interface, people who use computers to get things done won't ever consider a tablet over a work machine. Sure, for Mom and Pop who just browse the internet and email with others, a tablet may fit the bill. But you can't discount hundreds of millions of machines being used for work other than the basics of computing; sure, maybe in twenty years things will be different, but the traditional PC won't be going anywhere anytime soon.


You've got to open your mind to many other possibilities outside of just the tablet. Virtual input devices would make a physical mouse and keyboard obsolete. The tablet keyboard is just the beginning. Multi window user interface is inevitable on smaller devices, and with cloud computing, physical storage may become obsolete as well. Desktop PC's are presently more desirable based on the infrastructure, but once a portability infrastructure is at the forefront, a desktop PC will be more limiting and what we know as a laptop computer may become the cell phone of the 80's in portability. From a computing power aspect, its only a matter of time, and you'll see it more in the likes of 5-10 years versus 20. Things are moving fast, and HP realizes that, hence their decision to get out of the game. That is a very BIG indicator with respect to the viability of the PC industry. Microsoft better get another game going fast, or they will ultimately become a secondary company as well.
post #232 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecklesstechguy View Post

Same thing with the PC. 70% of the market or more on the consumer side don't use 1/10th of the capability of their desktop or laptop. Read that again - 70% of the consumer market. The remaining 30% are those whose use of a PC is upwards of that 1/10th - professionals of many stripes, and largely because the application coding is built around a common hardware reference point.

The vast, larger majority of current PC users will move on to light-weight powerful mobile devices, that will increasingly have better capability, capacity and ease of use, while the professionals continue to use the "pickup truck" PC to leverage that additional power and capacity.

A question... why can't we have both?

Let's say, hypothetically, that Apple release a new MacBook Air with an OS that behaves like an iPad (all apps installed via an app store, limited multi-tasking, full screen apps etc) controlled via multi-touch on the touch pad (much like a refined Lion), but with a couple of tweaks around the notification system, switching apps and displaying apps side-by-side that help deal with window management and some of the multi-tasking use case scenarios on the iPad.

Now lets say that somewhere deep in the settings of this new MacBook Air they had a power-user option to enable the legacy interface, which would add a legacy UI launcher app to my home screen and perhaps enable the installation of legacy apps which would launch in the legacy UI.

70% of the consumer market that use the simple functions would never even know that the legacy interface existed, however they would still reap some of the benefits of running OSX (like support for various peripherals and printers).

The other 30% of power users still have that legacy UI to fall back on when they need it.

Do PC and post-PC have to be mutually exclusive?

Do we have to make a choice between a PC device and a post-PC device, or can we have our cake and eat it too?

Is the recent introduction of the mobile OS a new category or is it simply an acceleration of the simplification of the PC OS that has been an ongoing process for the last 20+ years?
post #233 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

To take another analogy:
You would rather sit in an automated electric powered vehicles that would get you from point A to point B.
I'm the type that like to row my own gears, hear the roar of pistons spinning at 9000rpms, feel the vibration, the smells and being "one" with the machine that I am driving. I fear the day when transportation becomes automated.
I am, what they say, a "purist".
To me, its not the end that matters, its the means of getting there that does.

Your ongoing arguments demonstrate a fundamental issue withyour understanding about how all this works. It not about you. Let me repeat that. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.

IT'S
NOT
ABOUT
YOU


You more obsessive than a purist. And to argue that the means matter more than the end, is very silly. That argument would mean that the relatively efficient interstate system of highways is meaningless and unnecessary.

You are in a very small minority. Just like I am. I am a motorhead. I love tinkering with engines - both ground-bound and aviation. I am a certified mechanic as well. I make my money in technology (computing). I used to build all my own computers. I used to void the warranty and mod my Macs. You (and I) are far outside the mainstream, but your temperament (demonstrably from these threads - not that I actually know anything about you other than what you have posted) does not allow you to understand the mainstream mentality.

There are clear and definable reasons why automobiles have moved from manually geared truck and Model T's to auto-shifting and auto-adjusting, climate-controlled transportation vehicles. Because the vast majority of transportation users desired that ease and convenience. PERIOD. Transportation already is automated in ways you don't even understand, because you (apparently) only have a few decades worth of experience. I've driven a Model T, an early model Bugatti, a farm tractor. You want to talk about lack of automation, try dropping a plow into hardpacked soil AND down shifting into power range, downshifting a gear and advancing the throttle on a tractor. You don't know what truly manual is until you have done that. Now, move that into everyday experience - you don't want to have to have this experience on a daily basis do you?(from the Wikkipedia article on the model T):

Quote:
To make a Model T accelerate, move two levers near the steering wheel. The lever on the right was the throttle (or engine speed), and the lever on the left adjusted the time that the spark plugs fired. These levers needed to be set properly before the engine could be started.

The three pedals on the floor of the Model T were for the brake on the right, reverse in the middle to make the Model T go backwards, and a pedal on the left to shift the gears from low to high speed. A lever on the floor worked the brakes as well as the clutch. Pulling the lever toward the driver would set the parking brake and help keep the car from moving while parked. When the lever was placed in the middle, the transmission would be in neutral.

Once the engine is running, the driver now has to make the Model T move on its own. Step on the pedal all the way to the left, move the throttle lever to "give it the gas" and gently move the floor lever forward. This is low gear, the powerful gear used to get the Model T moving. Once it's moving, move the right lever up, let the left pedal come all the way up, and give it more gas to shift into high. To make the car go faster still, move the throttle lever as well as the spark advance lever. Stepping on the left pedal only halfway puts the car in neutral, the same as the lever. This helps the Model T come to a stop without causing the engine to stop as well.

The brakes on a Model T work the rear wheels by the use of brake bands inside the transmission. Modern cars have brakes on all four wheels. No brakes are on the front of a Model T.

So neither does the average driver. And that's who this is all about. The average driver.
The average driver wants a comfortable easy to use driving experience that is low maintenance, fuel-efficient and enjoyable. That's it. Sexy is fun, but optional. Noisy is fun - but optional. "Mod-able" is fun but optional. Manual is fun but optional. The core of the experience is as I stated above: comfortable easy to use driving experience that is low maintenance, fuel-efficient and enjoyable.

The average PC user. They/we don't want to have to monitor constantly for failures like virii or trojan impacts, swap out RAM, change out hard drives, benchmark CPUs, trade out GPUs. That's not what a PC is for. A PC for the average user is to get email, browse services, products and features of the internet, look at photos and videos, listen to music, create stuff like documents, videos, music, presentations. Access work-related stuff easily.

You either can't understand this or don't want to. It has been explained in so many different ways to you and you still fail to understand. At this point I tend to think it is deliberate cupidity on your part and not lack of understanding. It can't be spelled out more simply than I have done above. I strongly admire the previous respondants' attempts to address your issues, but they (I feel) labor in vain, because you simply do not WANT to understand. And ultimately that's OK. Sitting in the corner with your fingers stuffed in your ears loudly singing la-la-la-la-la, is simply one way to pass the time, and only annoying to those who have to stand next to you. *GRIN*
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post #234 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

I idea of "post-PC" is not there will be no PC, but PC will no longer be the center of computing like it used it.

Ahhh! The simple and succinct words of reason.
post #235 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

A question... why can't we have both?

Let's say, hypothetically, etc. etc. etc.

Do PC and post-PC have to be mutually exclusive?


Do we have to make a choice between a PC device and a post-PC device, or can we have our cake and eat it too?

Is the recent introduction of the mobile OS a new category or is it simply an acceleration of the simplification of the PC OS that has been an ongoing process for the last 20+ years?

Hmmm... maybe quite a few of the people in this discussion just don't get the term post-pc era. The ones that I think actually get the term are the people who are saying that the terms aren't mutually exclusive. That they co-exist but that we are moving into an era where the post-pc device will dominate.

If anything, I'd say that the laptop was the first post-pc device in that it freed you from the desktop... mobile computing today is an extension of that.

(edit - see post directly above)
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post #236 of 253
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post #237 of 253
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post #238 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

For storage, we should be hitting 128GB this year in mobile devices and this is only a cost limitation.

I keep on hearing this, but I don't think that will be happening. I think they don't 'do the obvious'; a yearly increase (in storage) and would actually like to decrease storage in order to promote the 'new computing' iCloud concept. Of course they won't decrease storage, but I think doubling the size is just wishful thinking.



Is it me, or did the mothership just landed on this iMacs' screen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It's a worrying prospect trusting Apple to define our future computing, given some of their choices regarding Pro Apps but I think in the end they'll do the right thing.

Great post; for me, hitting many issues right-on. Thanks for this!

PhilBoogie
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- Roger Sterling
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post #239 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

To me, this capability should be in the OS and generalized to include all apps/file content.

Maybe Apple bought Siri to augment the OS file system as well as Internet search.

Interesting thought, it certainly seems as though they are placing more and more importance on intelligent search to improve automatic categorisation.

In the end, search capability should be there to act on our intent and some of Google's adverts highlight this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnsSUqgkDwU

Technology that exists for technology's sake is useless. Until you put an iPhone in the hands of a human being, it serves no purpose. So given that it's all about us, personal computing should be made to conform to us in the best way it can.

This is one thing that's been such a huge benefit of post-PC devices: Apple gets to experiment with wildly new ways of working, which is so difficult to do on a legacy platform.

The problem that hinders this as you've pointed out is compatibility. Metadata has to survive network and filesystem changes. Gradually we will grow to accept the things that work best for us and over time get round the problems.

Post-PC devices can't instantly replace everyone's computer but it's clear that touch/gesture interaction is important. It's how we interact with each other and we have our own nuances that we often hope a computer could just understand.

I still think there are parallels between both metadata and hierarchy to the real-world but it all comes down to results. I would love not to have to manage files but I also don't want a pile of my entire collection of items presented when I try to get to something. We also have to consider how this is all going to work on the internet - all the forward slashes are pathname separators in a hierarchical filesystem. The internet isn't going away any time soon.

It will be an ongoing refinement process and post-PC devices will be drawn into everything. I think this will happen to the point where nothing we own would be called a PC, hence why it will be a post-PC era.
post #240 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

"Purist", huh?

Then why aren't you mining your own iron and casting and machining your own car parts? You should be raising cattle and tanning your own leather for the seats. Get yourself a rubber tree and make your own tires......

Let me know how that works out for you. :roll eyes:


Because he uses words in the manner most people use them, rather than stretching and twisting them.

Some folks might claim that the only way to bake a loaf of bread from scratch is to first create the universe. But most people are not flaming a-holes.
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