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Apple still pushing for $1.5 trillion US overseas profit tax holiday - Page 2

post #41 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Why not "Apple, et. al. push for a…" instead of making it look like Apple itself is going to get a trillion and a half dollars in profit if they stop being taxed?

I mean, that makes complete sense and all, what with obscene EU taxes, but still.

Thanks TS - or "Tax Holiday still on wish list for top US international companies, including Apple" the existing headline makes it sound like Apple has a trillion dollar stake in the tax holiday - which it clearly doesn't.
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post #42 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Is it because you believe there's a significant public benefit to doing so, or is more from an investor viewpoint? And if you believe there's a public benefit, what is the primary one?

Noted that you're no longer an Apple shareholder.

1) I am an Apple shareholder again. I bought in pretty much at the low point. Saved myself about 45/share.

2) I see no benefit with the money staying overseas. If money comes back to the US to be spent in the US many of the good purchase with said funds could be taxed. As of right now zero of it is being used and the government can't force a company to bring it back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Sheesh, "Crazies"? How dare people state contrary views to your own? It's especially rich, given you've just stated your own personal view.

So I mention a thread that surrounds politics is okay for stating one's politics unlike the crazies who jump into a political discussion in a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with politics and that makes me crazy. You may not be crazy, but your reading comprehension isn't exactly sound.
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post #43 of 162
While I really like Apple products and will happily spend my hard-earned money to buy them, I find the whole idea of these 'tax holidays' repulsive, the name alone already makes me really angry. It's stuff like this that is making peoples lives miserable in the US, every dollar of profit that goes untaxed because of bullshit tax hikes like this will either be taken from taxpayers wallets, or simply further erode fundamental provisions like health care and education.

Reading stuff like this makes me happy I live in Europe. Sure we pay relatively high taxes, but at least everybody pays, including the megacorporations, and at least we can provide everyone, including the less fortunate, with proper health care, education, child care, etc.

I don't want to sound like everything is perfect over here, and wrong in the US, but come on, how can anyone in their right mind support tax hikes for megacorporations like Apple, who have $70 billion in the bank and are basically printing money, while there are millions of americans who basically have no access to the health care they need, will never be able to go to college or university, or have to work 2 full-time jobs just to be able to stay alive.
post #44 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by d-range View Post

Reading stuff like this makes me happy I live in Europe. Sure we pay relatively high taxes, but at least everybody pays, including the megacorporations, and at least we can provide everyone, including the less fortunate, with proper health care, education, child care, etc.

Give me a break! I dont know where youŕe getting that, but check out Italy sometime ok?
post #45 of 162
Isn't full corporate tax rate 30% ?

Give a break to 18% - take it or leave it.

The corporations are already making high profits and where are the jobs? Nowhere to be seen.

Couple it with an increase in the regular tax rate.

(Disclosure: long Apple)
post #46 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) I am an Apple shareholder again. I bought in pretty much at the low point. Saved myself about 45/share.

2) I see no benefit with the money staying overseas. If money comes back to the US to be spent in the US many of the good purchase with said funds could be taxed. As of right now zero of it is being used and the government can't force a company to bring it back.

So what is the public benefit if Apple (for instance) is permitted to bring home the bacon at a minimal tax rate? Are you buying the argument that it's all about new jobs (as in employment)? I'm truly curious about your reasoning.

Eventually Apple will be forced to bring some of that home to advance their business plans anyway in all likelihood, and at the current tax rates rather than the laughable 5% they suggest. IMO this is simply another scheme by the rich to get richer and avoid their responsibilities to the country that enabled them, leaving the heavy pulling to the unappreciated tens of millions "common folk".
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post #47 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Give me a break! I dont know where youŕe getting that, but check out Italy sometime ok?

I'm not from Italy, and I didn't state that everybody pays the same. Just stating the extremely obvious and apparent fact that in most of the European countries that have an economy that's at least somewhat solid, there are no crazy tax breaks for megacorporations, and it seems to be working out very well for everyone living in said countries.

If you are bringing up Italy as an example of a European country that does have tax hikes for big companies, you are only confirming what I'm saying, seeing the sorry state that Italy is in right now, financially.
post #48 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

So what is the public benefit if Apple (for instance) is permitted to bring home the bacon at a minimal tax rate? Are you buying the argument that it's all about new jobs (as in employment)? I'm truly curious about your reasoning.

Eventually Apple will be forced to bring some of that home to advance their business plans anyway in all likelihood, and at the current tax rates rather than the laughable 5% they suggest. IMO this is simply another scheme by the rich to get richer and avoid their responsibilities to the country that enabled them, leaving the heavy pulling to the unappreciated tens of millions "common folk".

1) Yes, it's about the rich wanting to stay richer. All for-profit companies should be trying to legally maximize their holdings.

2) It's about a specific benefit for bringing the money back, it's about the fact there is no benefit for not bringing the money back.

3) Apple makes billions in profit quarter in US sales alone so there is little chance they will have to bring the money back to cover expenses. Maybe that new HQ or data center would have been built years ago had they been able to bring back their money to the states.

4) Remember this is a global economy. Unless you are suggesting the US government should actively and violently force these companies to bring the money back to the US there is little reason to expect them to when there is no incentive. Waiting for these global conglomerates to falter miserably in the US thus forcing the monies to come back at a higher tax then you've already lost because by that time the US will be so destitute that they probably have other markets to focus on.
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post #49 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by huntercr View Post

That's not the point. The point is the government is closing the loop on that 0%.. meaning all that money will be taxed at the normal 15 - 35% for business income.
The lobbyists are saying they need a year of 5% taxes and pledging to use the extra money they'd receive in profits to "stimulate jobs"
They're begging "please please don't make me pay taxes on the money I purposely kept out of the country to try and avoid paying taxes on.... pretty please?"
Senator Bernie Sander's list of top 10 companies who are cheating and avoiding income tax:
---
1) ExxonMobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.
2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.
3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.
4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.
5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.
6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.
7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.
8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.
9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.
10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.

Is that all funds overseas are taxed by the countries they were generated in at whatever tax rate that country stipulates, period. By transferring money from overseas into the US the companies requesting the tax holiday are trying to reduce the impact of double-taxation - where the US government would again tax that money as it comes into the US - even though the companies have already been taxed overseas. But the good Senator doesn't want to go into that - all he sees is money for pork-barrel projects for his district.

Note that they aren't trying to get off scot-free, they are putting a 5% rate on the table to pay into the tax system. If the money stays overseas - how will it benefit the US economy? Obviously it won't. If it it heavily taxed AGAIN coming into the US all you are doing is feeding the most rapacious and ineffectual programs management system in the world - the US government. And reducing the income that these companies have to use to bolster the US economy.

If you make the US economy hostile to large companies they will take their operations elsewhere (moreso than even now) and simply treat the US economy as a market instead of home - which means they bleed even more money out of the US and into overseas economies.

If you don't like the culture of large corporations you need to build strong supports for small to medium-sized businesses to grow and be successful. But our culture doesn't support that from a consumer perspective. And we elect into office those that continue to take payoffs from large corporations to support that culture.

The future is always in the hands of the voters - take a close look at what happened in Iceland. You will have a hard time perhaps because the EU is trying to silence that revolution, but dig a bit. No one will change things for you. Too many are too comfortable with the status quo (and that's everyone from both sides of the political aisle) to make any effort to change.
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post #50 of 162
Unfortunately, I don't see Apple using any money from a tax holiday to open any manufacturing plants in the US. Any US expansion (new retail stores, new corporate office "spaceship") will be done anyway with their US earnings.

If Apple (or any company) could show how they wanted to use any "tax holiday" money to generate new jobs, I would be more positive about this.

How about an alternative that allows a company like Apple to have their foreign profits taxed in the US at a rate slightly lower than what they would have paid in the foregin country? I don't know how the corporate tax rules work.... If they have a choice of paying taxes overseas or in the US, make it advantageous to pay them in the US. Any tax earned is better than $0, right?
post #51 of 162
This is link bait considering Apple is among a dozen or more major companies pushing for it, and the article suggests that only a few other companies are supporting it. In checking Reuters, I'm seeing a long list and the title is, "Factbox: WIN America members include Microsoft, others." How did you manage to miss Microsoft and make it and make it Apple centric?
post #52 of 162
A quick Google search reveals Apple employed 17000 in 2006, 32000 in 2008 and 47000 in 2010. This is an example of corporate success resulting in jobs. This doesn't even begin to take into account the countless jobs that would have been created at all of Apple's various vendors.
post #53 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiomusic View Post

What's 5% of $1.5 trillion?
Much better than 0% of $1.5 trillion.

The correct answer is that the government needs to close this loophole that allows corporations to keep money offshore and avoid taxes. This is Criminal!!! Although I do agree that we should probably lower our tax rate to @28% closer to most industrialized countries.

Apple can bring the money in today tax free. How about paying their lower tiered employees a living wage. In Los Angeles they pay @$12/hour - can't survive on that. If they really want to stimulate the economy bring 10 billion in and immediately give those employees a raise - the offsetting business expense means 0% tax!. All of those employees will spend every dime which will absolutely stimulate the economy. Don't need any bills from congress to do this and don't have to rely on the "good faith" of the company or their "conscience" to do whats right for the country -- we are in the problem we are today because of unbridled greed from corporations - don't be a Charlie Brown.
post #54 of 162
As has already been stated this was done before and proved to do nothing for stimulating anything except the pockets of the already well to do. The same thing will happen again I'm pretty sure. I'm fairly convinced, although Warren gives me some hope, that the people who really have the means to turn life around for a lot of people will not, and will continue to hoard their stockpiles of cash and let this country, the very country that got them where they are, crumble.

Although putting another $75 Billion dollars in taxes to use MAY be helpful, it will likely just get wasted like other billions of dollars wasted every year to run studies like how people who suffer from depression (no offense if you do) are less productive. You don't say? Or to fund wars. Or to pay refunds to companies who don't pay a dime in taxes.
post #55 of 162
If the money was already taxed in the country it was earned I don't think it should be taxed again upon repatriation. As rjohnston said, this is double taxation.

I see where the politicians are coming from with their economics. Investment must always precede job creation (before someone can get a job somewhere, that place has to be built). But they are wrong that the current lack of investment is caused by lack of money. My understanding is there is already trillions of dollars of capital in the US, sitting on the sidelines not being invested. There are other reasons people aren't investing. This probably will not create any new jobs.
post #56 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_dude View Post

yeah right... give the rich even more tax breaks.. peachy.
so apple can invest in more factories in China to make products for sale guess where? IN CHINA. You get the idea who benefits from this.

You are missing the point. Apple doesn't need a tax holiday if they want to invest in China because the money is ALREADY overseas.

Right now Apple is being FORCED to invest their money in China and other countries because they cannot bring the money to the US or spend it in the US without getting taxed extra.

So effectively, by having this tax in place the government is saying "we want you to invest in foreign countries and not in the US"

Do you get it now?

And let's not talk about how much money the government is "losing" by getting 5% versus their usual rate. You cannot lose what you don't have, and if these companies don't get the 5% then the US government gets 0%. So the more valid point would be that the government is losing billions of dollars by not cutting the rate, since they are effectively getting $0 at the current rate.


Quote:
As has already been stated this was done before and proved to do nothing for stimulating anything except the pockets of the already well to do.

And what do you think they did with the money? They invest, buy things, etc. Even just keeping it in a CD's or other investment instruments, the money is used to stimulate the economy (when you put your money in a CD, that money is invested into new businesses and ideas and your interest paid from the dividends of those investments).

They don't stash it in a vault where it sits idly by. The point is that money now circulates in the US economy versus foreign economies.
post #57 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_ika View Post

Think different. Compel repatriation and tax it at 70% at threat of imprisonment for all senior executives.

Harsh, but Hell Yeah!
post #58 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_ika View Post

Think different. Compel repatriation and tax it at 70% at threat of imprisonment for all senior executives.

Couldn't agree more.
post #59 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conscript View Post

They don't stash it in a vault where it sits idly by. The point is that money now circulates in the US economy versus foreign economies.

Not necessarily. They might put it in the bank and then the bank invests it overseas.

If a country is not a good place to invest in, simply encouraging more money to come in won't do anything. The money will just run away again...

To increase investment in a country, there is no getting around the basic need to make that place business friendly. No Financial Trick will substitute for that.
post #60 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

3) Apple makes billions in profit quarter in US sales alone so there is little chance they will have to bring the money back to cover expenses. Maybe that new HQ or data center would have been built years ago had they been able to bring back their money to the states.

Please stop just making things up off the top of your head. The holdup for Apple's new HQ, given that they have $76 billion in cash, has obviously not been money. The holdup, if you had been reading this very site, has been Cupertino planning commission and also obtaining the land from the previous owners.

Please stop grasping at finding a defense for corporations not paying their fair share. And stop with the passive trolling. I know it's how you get your posting #'s into the thousands, but it's not constructive. Please, just stop.
post #61 of 162
That may be true ascii, but the bank also creates jobs for auditors, investment bankers, etc.

And lets keep in mind that would be assuming the entire amount is just stashed in a bank. Most companies have pretty diversified portfolios, some of that money would certainly go toward investments in equipment, jobs etc. or at least be used to pay down debts (which improves the long term viability of many companies that may be teetering on the brink of insolvency).

I think no matter how the money is used, its always better for it come back and touch something here, even if some of it ends up going out again than to just stay abroad 100% of the time.
post #62 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habañero View Post

It didn't work in 2004. Why would it work now?

That web site is written for, and by, idiots.

-kpluck

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post #63 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

Please stop just making things up off the top of your head. The holdup for Apple's new HQ, given that they have $76 billion in cash, has obviously not been money. The holdup, if you had been reading this very site, has been Cupertino planning commission and also obtaining the land from the previous owners.

Please stop grasping at finding a defense for corporations not paying their fair share. And stop with the passive trolling. I know it's how you get your posting #'s into the thousands, but it's not constructive. Please, just stop.

Yes, they have $76 billion or so in cash but not all that cash is here. I wonder if there's a way to find out what percentage of that is abroad.

Who decides what a fair share is? You?

Let's face it, a fair share would be where everyone shares equally. But right now the top 50% of wage earners pay 97% of all taxes. That tells me the bottom 50% (the ones who always bitch about others not paying their fair share) are the ones not paying THEIR fair share.

And if you extrapolate further, you will see that the top 1% pays 39% of all taxes. That sounds like they are already paying their fair share... and they are probably paying your share already too.
post #64 of 162
Sure, but only if Apple takes the difference and uses it to build manufacturing plants and facilities here in the US.

They're having problems building enough phones and pads and airs anyway. Why not make them here in modern, highly automated facilities? Why is it Apple can make a billion dollar commitment to Sharp to build a plant, but does nothing here?

If Hyundai and Honda and Toyota can build cars here in the US -- and make a profit doing so -- then Apple could build computers here and do the same.

Such plants, being heavily automated, might not create that many jobs. But I'd think that the spillover effects to the surrounding areas and local economies could be enormous. And SOME is much, much better than none.

So there it is. Invest in the US, and you get your "holiday."

Oh, and just to be sure, audit them after 5 years and make sure they've actually spent the money as specified. Otherwise the rate on that money is 50%, and you owe the US money.

Plus interest and penalties, of course.
post #65 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_dude View Post

yeah right... give the rich even more tax breaks.. peachy.
so apple can invest in more factories in China to make products for sale guess where? IN CHINA. You get the idea who benefits from this.

I hope you get filthy rich and the government soaks your ass to the bone with taxes!!

What is it with you people beating up on those who actually earn lots of money. Why do you think that what others have made you are suddenly entitled. The government and you had nothing to do with their gain.

You class envy, jealous socialist types need to butt out of other people's business.
post #66 of 162
Their framing of the situation is clever, but a flat-out tax break doesn't seem like the answer. Somebody is going to have to cover the expenses of keeping this country strong, safe and civilized, and a balance needs to be found between those who have little or no disposable income and the people and companies that have lots of extra cash.
Warren Buffett wrote a good op-ed piece about this recently: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/op...uper-rich.html

If companies have millions or billions in cash lying around that they haven't needed badly enough to repatriate, it seems like maybe some of this should be used to help the country that provides the education and infrastructure that has helped them thrive. They are framing the issue as if they wanted to help stimulate the economy but the government won't let them, but really if they wanted to they still could, of course.

Perhaps a reasonable compromise would be to give companies tax breaks for hiring new employees, and of course if they use domestic or foreign profits, the tax break could be applied to those profits. In this way, if they are sincere about wanting to use the foreign profits to finance their growth, they should be satisfied.
post #67 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjohnston View Post

So, let me get this straight, if (for example) a company called Apple France buys computers from Apple, Inc. and sells them in France and makes a profit and pays France taxes on those profits - everything's ok, right?

Then, Apple is going on about its business here in the US tries to make a decision about moving money that is sitting in Apple France's bank account to the USA. Taxes on that money have already been paid to France. And presently, that money would be taxed a second time if they tried to move it to the US. So, they have no need to move it -- if they don't, it gives Apple France plenty of cash to spend in France (they can buy some more advertising, hire more employees, or build more stores, etc.). But, if they do move it, then the cash is here and Apple can do things with it here.

The choice is theirs, and as things stand presently with the double tax they'd have to pay by moving it, it makes more economic sense to just leave it in France. Companies make decisions based on factors like this all the time. If there was no barrier to making that transaction, it would occur much more often and more money would be in our economy.

In addition, the US has the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the world (behind Japan).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:In...By_Country.svg

Compare this to the 1990s when our income rates were higher, but most other countries had higher rates than ours.
post #68 of 162
“The current U.S. international tax system is the best of all worlds for U.S. multinationals,” said David S. Miller, a partner at Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP in New York. That’s because the companies can defer federal income taxes by shifting profits into low-tax jurisdictions abroad, and then use foreign tax credits to shelter those earnings from U.S. tax when they repatriate them, he said.

U.S. multinationals boost earnings by shifting income out of the country via transfer pricing, a system that allows them to allocate costs to subsidiaries in high-tax countries and profits to tax havens. Google Inc., for example, cut its taxes by $3.1 billion in the last three years by moving most of the income it attributed overseas ultimately to Bermuda, Bloomberg News reported in October."
~ http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...home-cash.html



"The company (G.E.) reported worldwide profits of $14.2 billion, and said $5.1 billion of the total came from its operations in the United States.

Its American tax bill? None. In fact, G.E. claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion.

That may be hard to fathom for the millions of American business owners and households now preparing their own returns, but low taxes are nothing new for G.E. The company has been cutting the percentage of its American profits paid to the Internal Revenue Service for years, resulting in a far lower rate than at most multinational companies.

Its extraordinary success is based on an aggressive strategy that mixes fierce lobbying for tax breaks and innovative accounting that enables it to concentrate its profits offshore. G.E.’s giant tax department, led by a bow-tied former Treasury official named John Samuels, is often referred to as the world’s best tax law firm. Indeed, the company’s slogan “Imagination at Work” fits this department well. The team includes former officials not just from the Treasury, but also from the I.R.S. and virtually all the tax-writing committees in Congress."
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post #69 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecklesstechguy View Post

If you make the US economy hostile to large companies they will take their operations elsewhere (moreso than even now) and simply treat the US economy as a market instead of home - which means they bleed even more money out of the US and into overseas economies.

That's exactly what they are doing right now...not treating the US economy home and keep money overseas.

Say we allow a one time tax holiday. What are the chances these corporations continue to bring money back over to the US? ZERO. They will continue to keep the money abroad for another 5-6 years and then complain taxes are too high and they need another tax holiday. GREED always wins.
post #70 of 162
Just bring it back to the US and pay your damn taxes like the rest of us "people", money grubbing a-holes!

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post #71 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conscript View Post

That tells me the bottom 50% (the ones who always bitch about others not paying their fair share) are the ones not paying THEIR fair share.

Even if low-income workers are getting a break on income taxes, they're still paying payroll taxes and FICA. Not to mention state and local sales taxes, excise taxes, property taxes, etc..

The next level up that's paying income tax pays a disproportionately higher percentage of their income in taxes than do those in the top brackets, who hide their money in trust funds, record income as dividends, and hire legions of lawyers to mine each and every tax loophole.

Thus the "no taxes" sound bite is just that, a sound bite that attempts to cover up the real issue.

There's even a good solution: Create jobs for that bottom 50% that pay a decent salary.

Once that actually HAVE an income, I'm sure they'll gladly pay their "fair" share in taxes on it...
post #72 of 162
Give them a tax break for every American citizen they hire.
post #73 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluck View Post

That web site is written for, and by, idiots.

"In 2004, Congress passed the Homeland Investment Act, allowing companies to bring back offshore profits in 2005 and pay a tax rate of just 5.25 percent, far below the 35 percent corporate tax rate. Congress passed the bill because corporations said the money would go towards domestic job creation."

"However, according to work done by the National Bureau of Economic Research, 92 percent of the nearly $300 billion that companies brought back went to share buybacks and increased dividend payments."

Idiots with facts?
post #74 of 162
The tax holiday's not the problem; it's corporate offshore profits, and how they're taxed. A self-employed private U.S. citizen working abroad is subject to double taxation. Income tax must, of course, be paid in the country where the income was earned. Plus, the IRS demands that all income, earned worldwide, be taxed in the U.S. as well. There is a U.S. foreign-earned income tax exclusion for some of it (currently about $90,000), but all the rest is taxed, and there's no credit given for any taxes paid to another government. (BTW: there's no such double taxation in the EU. Tax is only paid to the country where it was earned.)

While U.S. ex-pats hate it (who wouldn't?), they understand that that's the price for keeping U.S. citizenship. Of course, they also have no choice.

So the question for me is really why a U.S. corporation should be treated differently in this regard than a private U.S. citizen. Why isn't at least some of their foreign-earned income taxed in the U.S. regularly? If you taxed it all, many such corporations might simply move abroad, lock, stock, and barrel, and the U.S. would get nothing at all. But being in the U.S. is, in itself, a good thing for many companies, probably good enough that, like private ex-pats, they'd be willing to pay something for it. What we really need is a fundamental re-think and re-vamp of our entire tax structure, but especially the corporate tax structure.
post #75 of 162
You forgot to write that those low-income earners who pay FICA et al, get it all back and more in tax credits for low income and childcare. Quit playing the class-envy card!!! 47% pay NO taxes!!!
post #76 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmlco View Post

Even if low-income workers are getting a break on income taxes, they're still paying payroll taxes and FICA. Not to mention state and local sales taxes, excise taxes, property taxes, etc..

The next level up that's paying income tax pays a disproportionately higher percentage of their income in taxes than do those in the top brackets, who hide their money in trust funds, record income as dividends, and hire legions of lawyers to mine each and every tax loophole.

Thus the "no taxes" sound bite is just that, a sound bite that attempts to cover up the real issue.

There's even a good solution: Create jobs for that bottom 50% that pay a decent salary.

Once that actually HAVE an income, I'm sure they'll gladly pay their "fair" share in taxes on it...

You forgot to write that those low-income earners who pay FICA et al, get it all back and more in tax credits for low income and childcare. Quit playing the class-envy card!!! 47% pay NO taxes!!!
post #77 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeoutsider View Post

I hope you get filthy rich and the government soaks your ass to the bone with taxes!!

What is it with you people beating up on those who actually earn lots of money. Why do you think that what others have made you are suddenly entitled. The government and you had nothing to do with their gain.

You class envy, jealous socialist types need to butt out of other people's business.

I think that's not entirely fair. Between me and the wife, we make just over $250,000 a year, so not what people consider rich, though it puts us in the top 10% of US households, so actually, it is what should be considered rich (we've lost track of what rich and poor is in my opinion).

However, despite what I earn, I will freely admit that I don't pay a fair amount of tax. To me it just doesn't seem morally right that I can significantly lower my tax bill because I have a large mortgage, meaning someone who can only afford to rent has to pay a higher percentage tax than me.

The problem with the tax system for me at the moment is one of fairness. To be the whole system does not seem fair at the moment. I don't think it's a case of the less well off deserving a free ride, but I do think it's not right that we don't fund education properly, for example.
post #78 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm all for this so-called tax holiday.

PS: This is article about politics so I'm surprised at how tame the rhetoric is so far. If ever there was a thread for crazies to take their soapbox this is it.

Au contraire, I'm appalled by the general level of ignorance about how economies and businesses actually on these forums (examples below).

But then I just read the infographic detailing the demo diffs between iPhone and Android users, and it won't make me change my products of choice, but Apple users are much bluer as a group. As is Steve, of course, and Apple did put Al Gore on the board.

Witness:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_ika View Post

Think different. Compel repatriation and tax it at 70% at threat of imprisonment for all senior executives.

Thanks for your helpful input, Commissar! Shape up these bourgeoisie pigs or shackle and send them to Siberia for "re-education"! And PS, that's not "thinking different," it's simply rehashed Marx channeled through Stalin. Both demonstrated masters of how to make an economy hum by harnessing the most effective tools for managing and encouraging proper human motivation. Not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiomusic View Post

What's 5% of $1.5 trillion?
Much better than 0% of $1.5 trillion.

Guess what - as per the thinking above and below, many here aren't going to get that.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by simonsharks View Post

If it really is about "investment" then so be it. Allow them to bring back their money tax free on the condition that they actually do reinvest it. Call their bluff!

What - do you think they stuff it in vaults and swim around in it like Scrooge McDuck? Or just stick it in mattresses....? On the other hand, if instead of this insane impulse to CONTROL what businessfolk do, you want to talk about incentivizing economic activities we want to occur (like, first, incentivizing bringing the money here in the first place as this proposal does), then we have a basis for dialog.

To be fair to you, though, our banks - propped up with trillions of dubious "FedBucks" courtesy of FR Chairman Bernanke - are kind of doing that, but the money repatriated by non-financial corps will be circulating and invested in something here instead of being isolated outside of the country.

And even if not all poured into hiring and building, etc., it's bound to be beneficial to have even their accounts and gold and such here.

Multi-nationals (like it or not/rightly or wrongly) find "home" to be where their capital and markets are. Keeping the money overseas makes American corps gradually less American.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiMBa37 View Post

So let me get this straight, our federal and state governments have no cash to fund any programs from school aid to health care, they are unwilling to tax the rich for revenue...and somehow repatrioting $1 trillion + dollars tax free is going to somehow stimulate the economy? Remind me how again?

So let me get this straight, despite record government spending (where "poor, modest civil servants" have greater job security/layoff immunity, higher wages, better retirement and health care and amazingly more paid leave than workers in the private sector) - and where Medicaid is the single largest item in most state budgets, we're funding no "programs from school aid to health care"?

And 5% = tax free?

And the top 5% of earners paying over half of all federal income taxes collected = not taxing the rich for revenue?

Damn, you could have fooled me.

Remind me where you studied math again??
Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_ika;1927798...

It's a very simple issue of who is stronger, governments or corporations.

Or unions or other non-corp lobbying groups representing social program and other subsidy beneficiaries - corporate and otherwise, plus contractors who depend on gov't for their businesses, and finally, media, 90%+ of whose reporters and content producers support big gov't and its programs - who, collectively, form the backbone of "strong" gov't. support.

(The fact that 90% or more of reporters personally vote Democratic has been studied and replicated several times - and that doesn't include the movie, video and music communities who command so much of our collective attention, and of whom probably over 95% are demonstrably on the left to far left in nearly piece of "propa-tainment" they offer us.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheviot View Post

Doesn't Apple already have 87 billion in cash they aren't spending? What would adding to the pile of money do?

Argghhh. Again, it's not in a mattress. And even if it is, we're better off as a country if it's in a mattress in the US. (And given that Apple now has more cash reserves than the US gov't., which, yes is true, again, I know I'd prefer those to be on shore in these times.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

It brings the money home and gives it to people like Steve Jobs who aren't hurting for money instead of the people now struggling to feed their families because their jobs are being shipped overseas to slave labor factories.

This sentence is so twisted into a pretzel as to almost defy comment. If Apple could deploy more of its cash here, it might spend more here. And of course things like building their huge new data center and proposed new "spaceship" HQ - funding many construction and related jobs - to handle their growing number of US employees only ships jobs overseas to slave labor factories.

Uhhhh...... .....what????

An iPhone, a Leatherman and thou...  ...life is complete.

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An iPhone, a Leatherman and thou...  ...life is complete.

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post #79 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeoutsider View Post

You forgot to write that those low-income earners who pay FICA et al, get it all back and more in tax credits for low income and childcare. Quit playing the class-envy card!!! 47% pay NO taxes!!!

You mean 47% pay no "income taxes". When you factor in all taxes on average the wealthy pay only marginally more as a percentage of their income in taxes than everybody else. See Figure 7 (about 3/5's down the page) here- http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesam...er/wealth.html
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #80 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbdoc View Post

So the question for me is really why a U.S. corporation should be treated differently in this regard than a private U.S. citizen.

That's a good question considering corporations are "people" these days afterall....
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