or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Windows 8 design to radically depart from Mac OS X Lion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Windows 8 design to radically depart from Mac OS X Lion - Page 3

post #81 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

You mean like allowing a power user to customize the Quick Access Toolbar and minimize the ribbon?

They did that.


I know. I use it everyday. But unlike previous incarnations it can only support a single row of icons!!! This is not enough space to hold the text editing tools in addition to the other tools so you still end up having to juggle back and forth between the ribbon.
post #82 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio View Post

...the Ctrl-Arrow which has been in use since virtual desktops were first invented)...

Okay, I liked Spaces too. In fact, I loved Spaces. In fact, I was a Space-oholic, running 9, and even sometimes 12 of the silly things.

http://www.isights.org/2007/11/confessions-of-.html

As such, I was predisposed to hate Mission Control, which promised to screw with all of my carefully designed spaces and adjacencies.

But to tell the truth. MC is better.

You need to do four things to use MC effectively. One is to go to the Control Panel for MC and uncheck "Automatically rearrange spaces...". This will let you setup and maintain side-to-side adjacencies between specific spaces.

Then assign specific apps to specific spaces. Mail is always in space 1, RSS in 2, DW in 3, etc. As you navigate this way, your subconscious learns that Mail is to the always to the left and DW to the right if you're in space 2, and so on.

Third is to assign different backgrounds to each space. I actually have a color scheme for the leftmost, middle and rightmost spaces. (Communications, Development, Miscellaneous) It's subtle, but color-coding your spaces is another mental anchor, always letting you know where you are in the scheme of things.

Finally, if you haven't, you need to bite the bullet and buy a Magic Trackpad if you're using a desktop. Learn the gestures, especially the three-finger side-to-side gestures and the swipe-up/down gestures used to bring up MC and the application window view. Beats the hell out of Snow Leopard's "hot corners".

With all of the above, and by using gestures, MC really sings.
post #83 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by qualar View Post

Lets just be honest here guys. No matter what MS does with Windows 8 you will say it is terrible. But if Apple added the exact same feature into OSX you would praise it as revolutionary.

These things are just operating systems some people like OSX some like Windows, both have their advantages; does it have to turn into a war?

Nope, I was critical of Lion in many ways, but after using it, I like it. But I still criticise certain parts of it, as is evident by my posts.

Yes, some will love to bash Windows for the sake of it. But really, it's just too easy. Why does the Explorer need a ribbon? It makes no sense.
post #84 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmlco View Post

You need to do four things to use MC effectively. One is to go to the Control Panel for MC and uncheck "Automatically rearrange spaces...". This will let you setup and maintain side-to-side adjacencies between specific spaces.

Then assign specific apps to specific spaces. Mail is always in space 1, RSS in 2, DW in 3, etc. As you navigate this way, your subconscious learns that Mail is to the always to the left and DW to the right if you're in space 2, and so on...

Ah... I didn't think I'd like Mission Control but I like "chucking" an app off fullscreen into it's own "space" so I become more app-oriented when working rather than screen-oriented. Or, screen-oriented for apps I am working at once with, keeping aside in fullscreen stuff that's always open eg. iTunes and Mail.

Your idea about assigning "spaces" (MC order of apps) is a good one. I'll consider it.

Also performance has improved for my MBP 13" 2010 with Nvidia 320M in 10.7.1 so MC is more pleasant to use now.
post #85 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by wixostrix View Post

Your mom doesn't represent to majority of the world. My mom knows them too but unfortunately now she's a stroke victim and is paralyzed on her left side. This new interface would actually be easier for her because most of the buttons are big and clearly labled. I also know plenty of people who don't know any keyboard shortcuts. You don't have to use the ribbon, you can collapse it, but it doesn't mean it isn't useful for other people.


That's a very sad situation. I have treated a number of stroke victims and I still find it upsetting when their body doesn't allow them the capacity to express their mind freely. My point is that it would be great if you could set up the tools your mum need to use in a layout that made sense to her rather than have to conform to some arbitrary layout decided on by a Microsoft employee.

It's not that big of a deal. I'm just pointing out that you really can't get enough functionality out of the quick access toolbar to permanently collapse the ribbon. I'm stuck with it whether I like it or not and annoyed that my productivity has to take a nosedive for the sake of being able to open .docx files. It's like your boss asking you to hammer a bunch of nails with a spanner. Just because you can "get by" doesn't remove your right to point out that it's not efficient.

P.S. My mother is most definitely, even by her own admission, a representative of the lower echelon of computer users.
post #86 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Nope, I was critical of Lion in many ways, but after using it, I like it. But I still criticise certain parts of it, as is evident by my posts.

Yes, some will love to bash Windows for the sake of it. But really, it's just too easy. Why does the Explorer need a ribbon? It makes no sense.

Agreed, my comment was a bit sweeping. But you say you bashed Lion but after using decided you liked it. How do you know the same is not true for this new ribbon for some people.

I think the real reason for this move to ribbon is because MS want the interface to work for all form factors, Desktop, Notebook and Tablets. Keyboard shortcuts and context menus do not work so well for touch. By using the ribbon the people who want to use shortcuts or context menus can collapse the ribbon but people using touch have the ribbon that is much easier to use than the old drop down menus.
post #87 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by filburt View Post

[*]"Select" section is also after thought. If they care about usability, learn from how email clients handle selection and put checkbox next to each file and directory.

Webmail interfaces use checkboxes next to each item for lack of select (and highlight) functionality that we are used to in selecting text, selecting Finder/WindowsExplorer items.

I doubt that checkboxes would simplify the situation. It is an "Linux-can-also-do-it nerd - include as much functionality as possible - never mind if the GUI is acceptable" approach.
post #88 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunks View Post

My point is that it would be great if you could set up the tools your mum need to use in a layout that made sense to her rather than have to conform to some arbitrary layout decided on by a Microsoft employee.

It's not that big of a deal. I'm just pointing out that you really can't get enough functionality out of the quick access toolbar to permanently collapse the ribbon. I'm stuck with it whether I like it or not and annoyed that my productivity has to take a nosedive for the sake of being able to open .docx files. It's like your boss asking you to hammer a bunch of nails with a spanner. Just because you can "get by" doesn't remove your right to point out that it's not efficient.

P.S. My mother is most definitely, even by her own admission, a representative of the lower echelon of computer users.

Why do you have to see it as conforming? I personally like the Ribbon. It puts items front and center with clearly defined tabs. For those who won't use it, such as myself, I'll just collapse it.

Obviously, Office is a different story and it's impossible to keep it collapsed forever. However, I still feel that it is better than the old menu bar. I wasn't a fan at first in Office 2007 but realized it actually was a lot more functional.
post #89 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by qualar View Post

Lets just be honest here guys. No matter what MS does with Windows 8 you will say it is terrible. But if Apple added the exact same feature into OSX you would praise it as revolutionary. These things are just operating systems some people like OSX some like Windows, both have their advantages; does it have to turn into a war?

Agreed. Most sensible post I've read.

You can always turn off the ribbon if you want. It's very simple, only takes a second.

I use both systems in my day to day work and they both have good bits and bad bits. I prefer OSX but it's not perfect. For example I hate the way OSX splits the Menu Bar from the Application Window. That is a real pain in the ass. Equally there are lots of things about Windows that drive me up the wall sometimes.

Speaking of Office and iWork what has happened to iWork 10, 11, 12? Has Apple abandoned iWork for Mac updates like they did with AppleWorks? Would be nice to know what the hell is going on.
post #90 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGuessSo View Post

Having used Windows for many years, I might not be 100% objective, but I feel that Explorer is vastly superior to Finder for anyone who actually uses the file system. As a developer and enterprise worker, I routinely deal with hundreds of files. Finder makes saving and opening files much more difficult than it should be. An indication of Finder weakness is the number of Finder add ons that have found a market. You just don't see that among Windows users. Another indication is the typical Mac user's overloaded desktop.

That said, I'm not overly impressed with the ribbon.

I hardly ever drill down through Finder these days, I do nearly all of my file placement/retrieval using Spotlight. As for Desktop clutter...

The Lazy Person's guide to an Uncluttered Desktop.


1) Create a folder on the desktop and call it 'Tidy' or somesuch.
2) Put everything else in it.

Bingo! Uncluttered Desktop!
Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha
Reply
Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
Buddha
Reply
post #91 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I have this mental image of one of them jumping up and down like Donkey in Shrek ... "Me me me .. My turn to add something!"

LOL. Yes, LOL. I actually am laughing out loud. This is funny post!

Thanks 4 this 1 digiclippy
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
post #92 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

http://www.windows-noob.com/review/i.../xpspyware.jpg (image)

Hahaha. Actualy not so haha since I have seen some1 with half their screen wasted on toolbars.

+1 for the systray icons. Takin' up much CPU?
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
post #93 of 154
I actually like the ribbon in Office and find most of my users do once they quit moaning and just learn to use it. It can also be used to develop some nice interfaces in custom VBA apps even though it's a pain to work with.

All that said, that screenshot from Explorer looks like complete overkill. The idea of providing quick access to the most-used functions is sound, but cramming every possible action into that space seems to defeat the object.

Also, I guess these things often change in the final release, but I think that the icon design and general look/feel of it doesn't really go with the new Windows 8 style, it could end up looking a bit of a mess compared to the slick look of Windows 7.
post #94 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post

Speaking of Office and iWork what has happened to iWork 10, 11, 12? Has Apple abandoned iWork for Mac updates like they did with AppleWorks? Would be nice to know what the hell is going on.

There's been continuous updates for iWork in the past couple years, most recently full Lion support and coming soon updates for full iCloud support. They're giving these updates away for free, don't complain that they haven't put a new year tag on it and put it up for sale for another $60.
post #95 of 154
I must be getting old or Lion's Finder must be all that because I don't get all the love for Finder.

Have people here forgotten what FTFF stands for? I think that Finder has gotten better but it still isn't as good at file management as Windows Explorer. If you copy and move a lot of files around WE is going to be better than Finder despite WE's garish user interface.
post #96 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I love the title.

Not depart from Windows 7, depart from OS X.

I love the contrast in simplicity between iWork and Office.

Oh, and CultOfMac mentioned that the buttons on the new Windows Explorer, according to Microsoft's own research, will be used by less than 50% of users. And they're still putting them on there.

With the ribbon, Microsoft was responding to a very real concern for users. Users were constantly asking for new features - features that were already in the product. They just couldn't find them. Thus the ribbon. Try to put features in a place that's visual. I'm not sure hiding everything as done in iWorks is better. It certainly does look better aesthetically, but does it make it harder to find functionality?
post #97 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

They did that.

Thanks for that link. Interesting read. Had to giggle on occasions. Like this:
"Finally, there are quite a few third-party add-ons that some of our more advanced customers use with Explorer today. These add-ons will continue to work in the right-click context menus in Windows 8, which is by far the most common access point for experienced customers running these add-ins (where discovery and occasional usage are not the primary design points). However, add-ins will not be able to plug into the ribbon UI. This was a difficult engineering choice for us and we expect that many of you will read this and suggest we add the capability--of course if we could get it right this time around we would have done that. A big part of this blog is sharing these choices--tradeoffs--between new features and adding everything we can dream up and finishing. We also think the customization we provide and the improvements are worthwhile this time around."

Cheers,
PhilBoogie
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
post #98 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

I am liking Windows 7 and hating Lion so far. Win 7 can zoom with Res. Independence while Lion has managed to ruin Expose, Dashboard and Spaces...all the biggest advances in the last half decade for OS X at least for my personal use. Although in general OS X is vastly superior to Windows for my purposes so I'll probably just stay with 10.6 until perhaps 10.8.

The ribbon in Win 8 though, that'll go over like a lead balloon. I'm surprised anyone has upgraded office. I bet they wouldn't have without .docx. I hate the Ribbon. I don't know anyone who does not hate it actually. It's almost as retarded as the "hoppping" tabs that Windows dialogue boxes have always had, that move positions on you.

Why are interfaces getting worse and uglier!? From iCal and Lion to Windows 8. What happened to all the good interface people!?

Windows 7 isn't bad, but the whole ribbon thing is lost on me - more an annoyance than anything. I'm not sure what the Win7 zoom thing has to do with Expose/Dashboard/Spaces issue - in fact unlike you, I really like the new Launchpad setup - for me it's a clean interface that improves upon the whole Expose/ Dashboard /Spaces conglomerate of Snow Leopard.

But to each their own I guess. We are agreed on the Win8 ribbon thing being a non-starter.
If you are going to insist on being an ass, at least demonstrate the intelligence to be a smart one
Reply
If you are going to insist on being an ass, at least demonstrate the intelligence to be a smart one
Reply
post #99 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

More Microsoft focus groups. That ribbon is a clusterfu*k. Look at how much space is wasted and how displeasing to the eye it is.

The effort to consolidate all the user functions has actually had a negative effect. They eliminated the menu bar because most people didn't use it. Now they have text AND icons that take up 3x more vertical space on the screen than Windows XP.

Exactly. All these moves to "simplify" the UI have made things more difficult.

Leopard/Snow Leopard was probably the peak so far in terms of UI for me. Windows 7 isn't bad, but both Windows 8 and Lion look like UIs in transition. They have good elements, but need more work.

Lion can use some polishing. Once more applications are updated to take advantage of its gestures and UI concepts, it will get better. There are also some inconsistencies to be fixed (e.g. natural scrolling makes sense on a trackpad but not a scroll wheel mouse), but I'm pretty confident it will get there. It looks a little disjointed right now (sort of a mix between Snow Leopard and iOS), but it is usable and a relatively easy migration from either Snow Leopard or Windows 7.

Windows 8 has some good ideas (e.g. the Metro UI, which I think will work well for tablets), but from what I've seen so far, it looks too disjointed (much more so than Lion). The Ribbon interface doesn't mesh very well with Metro and adds complexity. While the Ribbon has gotten a little better in Office 2010 vs. Office 2007, it still can be more complex, and takes up too much vertical room, leaving lots of wasted horizontal space, at least in Word. It might be OK from a space perspective on a tablet that's in portrait mode, but it still looks too complicated for a touch environment.
post #100 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmlco View Post

Third is to assign different backgrounds to each space. I actually have a color scheme for the leftmost, middle and rightmost spaces. (Communications, Development, Miscellaneous) It's subtle, but color-coding your spaces is another mental anchor, always letting you know where you are in the scheme of things.

It's nice that you can put a unique background on each desktop in MC, but I'd like the option to rename the various desktops to something more useful than Desktop, Desktop 2, Desktop 3, etc.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #101 of 154
Maybe the should ask Google to provide some statistics on searches along the lines of "where did the frickin' Convert Table to Text option go in Word 2007 and why can't I use a keyboard shortcut to get there like I used to. or why isn't Print Preview on the menu bar anywhere anymore. Or why can't I add my own macro to the toolbar anymore - or why can't I change the icon of my macros that I added to the (whatever they call that quick access toolbar at the top) in excel? or - well I think you get the idea.

I think the title was the author's perhaps - would't Microsoft decides to follow a different design path with Windows 8 than Apple chose with OS X Lion? (or perhaps something simpler - that doesn't imply that Windows design has always only ever been a copy of Mac OS, whether that is true or not).
post #102 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbarriault View Post

There's been continuous updates for iWork in the past couple years, most recently full Lion support and coming soon updates for full iCloud support. They're giving these updates away for free, don't complain that they haven't put a new year tag on it and put it up for sale for another $60.

They are all basic updates which one would expect over time. I would gladly pay to upgrade to iWork 12 with a host of new features and I suspect a lot of other people would to.
post #103 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury99 View Post

I use Mac OS at work and Windows 7 at home. I've owned a dozen of Macs, but I prefer Windows. To me Mac OS is very overrated. While graphically Mac OS is more elegant, Windows provides better usability.

1. Simple example: resizing a window.
Mac OS: if a lower part of a window is below the edge of my screen I have to make extra clicks to move it up so I can access lower right corner. Also maximize button does not work as well on Mac. Actually in Lion any side, any corner, and "maximize" button in MacOS X finder window toggles from default to whatever the program running determines is maximum OR whatever you manually adjust it to. Full screen mode for a window I have never found useful.
Windows: any window can be resized from any side and any corner. Unless you are in full screen mode then you can whistle for window controls.
2. Another example: dual monitor setup.
Mac OS: if you move application window to a secondary monitor, your top menu remains on primary monitor. Very odd Not at all - the menu bar is a system function not a program function - regardless of the fact that the program uses the menu bar for control and navigation. It would be really inconvenient to have to hunt around for the menu bar when you switch from program to program.

3. Another example: you trying to login to OS and you Caps are Locked.
Windows will tell you right away: Mac OS won't not an issue for me - I'm not caps lock challenged.

4. Windows Library folders. In a library, you can collect files of various sorts without moving them from the folder where they're stored; libraries can even collect files from different disks. It's easy to create these collections of whatever you'd like and pin them to the left-hand side of the window. Obviously your workflows are different than mine because I would find that really annoying - I put files where I want them.
Mac OS can't do this.

5. Windows is more keyboard friendly offering more keyboard shortcuts. Or conversely you just don't know enough of the Mac keyboard short cuts - there are plenty.

and the list can go on 6, 7, 8... I don't like MS Office ribbon though.

It's fine that you are more familiar with Windows than MacOS - and that is painfully obvious from your commentary. I move back and forth from Windows XP/7 to MacOS Snow Leopard and Lion several times a day and completely fail to have the issues you have called out here - but that might just be the level of experience I have in working on multiple platforms for many years.
If you are going to insist on being an ass, at least demonstrate the intelligence to be a smart one
Reply
If you are going to insist on being an ass, at least demonstrate the intelligence to be a smart one
Reply
post #104 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

Maybe the should ask Google to provide some statistics on searches along the lines of "where did the frickin' Convert Table to Text option go in Word 2007 and why can't I use a keyboard shortcut to get there like I used to. or why isn't Print Preview on the menu bar anywhere anymore. Or why can't I add my own macro to the toolbar anymore - or why can't I change the icon of my macros that I added to the (whatever they call that quick access toolbar at the top) in excel? or - well I think you get the idea.

I think you wouldn't get as many hits as you suspect.

You're a power user and from the old guard. Looking at the kind of pictures below that are coming out of Microsoft it's clear to me that (just like Apple for a number of years now) the days of engineers coding UI's for power users is gone.

post #105 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGuessSo View Post

Having used Windows for many years, I might not be 100% objective, but I feel that Explorer is vastly superior to Finder for anyone who actually uses the file system. As a developer and enterprise worker, I routinely deal with hundreds of files. Finder makes saving and opening files much more difficult than it should be. An indication of Finder weakness is the number of Finder add ons that have found a market. You just don't see that among Windows users. Another indication is the typical Mac user's overloaded desktop.

That said, I'm not overly impressed with the ribbon.

I would have agreed with you in the past, but since the dawn of Leopard, I have found myself to be far more productive using the Finder than Windows Explorer. What I do is customize my toolbar in the Finder, and keep two Finder windows open, in column view. I can do anything I need, and I can do it faster than in Windows, and without 3rd party add-ons.

In fact, when I have to work with Windows, the 1st thing I do now is put Windows Explorer in list view, and open two instances of Windows Explorer so I can work more like I do on the Mac.
post #106 of 154
Looks like a bad DOS shell from 1985...

Shades of this classic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUXnJraKM3k

I remember when they used to LAUGH at us Mac users...1999 - 2000...I don't think they're laughing anymore, somehow.

Cheers,
Cameron


Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Microsoft has started to leak details of its plans for the upcoming release of Windows 8, highlighting a very different design philosophy compared to Apple's existing Mac OS X Lion.

A new blog entry by Steven Sinofsky, Microsoft's president of its Windows Division, indicates that one key element of Windows 8 will take the new release in a very different direction than Apple's outline for Mac OS X.

Sinofsky detailed his thinking behind changes planned for Windows Explorer, which is roughly analogous to Mac OS X's Finder.

A history of Windows file browsing

The Windows file system manager originally appeared as "MS DOS Executive," which exposed DOS commands in a graphical environment with little similarity to the icon-centric Mac desktop.

As Windows began to grow in popularity, Microsoft created an embellished graphical representation of the file system with File Manager. Then, as web browsing became popular, Microsoft brought a browser-like interface to the file system, renaming File Manager as Windows Explorer, complete with a URL-like address bar and prominent back button.

Microsoft has incrementally incorporated Mac-like interface elements in Windows Explorer, with icon-centric file browsing that links documents to their preferred application. Particularly since the release of Mac OS X, Microsoft has incorporated a similar user environment focus that presents the user's documents, pictures, music and videos rather than just a raw window into the root file system.



Windows 8 Ribbonized

However, Microsoft's biggest changes in Windows 8 will be an Office-like Ribbon that presents all the major functions in a tall, window-wide control bar. This marks a radical change in thinking compared to Apple's increasingly minimalistic interface in the Finder, which limits the default buttons to a grouping of view options, a new sorting feature in Mac OS X Lion, a Quick View button, an Action button, and a search field.

Microsoft's Windows 8 Explorer presents 19 visible buttons in five categories, and that's just the Home tab. The Ribbon also supplies four other tabs, which function similar to the Mac's main Menu Bar. Sinofsky explains, "The Home tab is the heart of our new, much more streamlined Explorer experience. The commands that make up 84% of what customers do in Explorer are now all available on this one tab."



Microsoft's Office Ribbon design is so different from the Mac environment that the company had to create a hybrid version of Office for Mac to adapt portions of the Ribbon concept into a window that Mac users could relate to. Apple's own design for iWork similarly takes a very different design path to present a limited number of default toolbar buttons. along with a strip of contextual controls (contrasted below).



Outside of the graphical interface, Microsoft's design goals for Windows 8 also mark a new era of computing centered around mobile devices such as tablets. Existing Windows 7 apps won't run on future ARM-based tablets, but a new secondary environment of web-based apps will, something Microsoft hopes will enable Windows to remain relevant even as the conventional PC market has plateaued and begun to shrink globally.

Apple sandboxes the file system

Apple's design direction for Mac OS X has opted to incorporate a variety of design elements originally created for iPad, including a simplified, window-less Full Screen mode for apps; limited and simplified control buttons in toolbars; an increasing use of touchpad gestures; and a new security model that encapsulates apps and their documents in a private sandbox.

Apple's iOS originally appeared on the iPhone without any "file browser," and even the latest version works hard to avoid any exposure of the underlying file system, despite supporting document-centric apps like iWork. Apps on iOS simply can not present a global view of the underlying filesystem, because all they can see is their own sandbox.

Apple's iCloud similarly reduces the exposure of file system, replacing MobileMe's iDisk with a new Documents and Data feature that secures an app's files and data from access by malware while making the user's files (and any changes) easier to manage across various devices.

Future versions of Mac OS X will likely continue along the same path, focusing upon self contained apps that create files, rather than a wide open file system (and the security issues related with having any piece of user-level software capable of accessing or wiping out any files in the local user folder).

Apple has demonstrated a mechanism for Mac OS X and iCloud that will allow apps to access other files, but only with the explicit permission of the user, adding a new level of per-app security that goes beyond the last decade's user-level security permissions.
post #107 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by filburt View Post

While I have few usability issues with ribbon, such as header text offering little clarity yet occupying precious space, if properly applied, ribbon can be (1) an effective way to discover new features that users may otherwise not be exposed to and (2) provide context sensitive options that are relevant to selected items at hand.

Unfortunately, Windows 8 is an example of ribbon abuse.


  • The whole "clipboard" section is unnecessary and adds to confusion. Although clipboard can be used to copy, delete, and move files and directories, using clipboard for file management is ambiguous and made redundant with "organization" section that immediately follows.
  • What's the difference between "open" and "edit"?
  • "Select" section is also after thought. If they care about usability, learn from how email clients handle selection and put checkbox next to each file and directory.

Ultimately, Explorer/Finder are supposed to do just one of two functions: (1) helping users organize and (2) helping users find stuff. Apple is moving towards the direction of nixing Finder altogether (on iOS, you don't worry about organizing files... it just works). But Microsoft is choosing to stay in the past.

The main problem I have with the ribbon in Windows is that you can't add your own icons/functions to it the way you could in earlier Windows interfaces. For example, in Word, I like to have the crossout and small caps formatting options up there for quick access. In Excel, I added extra default border options.

In Mac OS, I'm not sure I'm ready to give up my own control over my file organization. I don't think I want the file system hidden.

But I do agree that many of the functions that Microsoft has added to the ribbon for this File Explorer are redundant and/or useless. Hopefully, that's cutomizable. (Or hopefully, by then I won't have to use Windows machines anymore.)

One thing I think Windows has always done better is the mini-finder/explorer (the one you see when you open or save a file from within an application). On the Mac, you can't take any other actions. But in Windows, you can, for example, delete files that you no longer need and then save/open the file. I think there was an add-on tool for Mac OS7 that did the same, possibly from Peter Norton.
post #108 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) You can resize a window from any edge in Lion.

Wow. In Lion you finally can! 15 year later after Windows. This just tells me how immature Mac OS is. Well, for me it is still unavailable: my IT department advised us against upgrading to Lion due to some issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

2) There is no Maximize button in Mac OS X, it's an Optimize button.

That's right: you can't maximize window in Mac OS. "Optimize" is a partial solution.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Seems to be a common enough complain but I've never understood why someone would want to have their Menu Bar on a non-primary display. That's just backasswards.

Well, if you are in driver seat, would you want your steering weel to be on passenger side? "That's just backasswards."


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That's a bald face lie.


Yes, I am embarrassed about this one. This just proves my point: Mac caps lock indicator is less explicite: it is icon based vs. the actual text message on Windows. Mac has no tool tip or anything: how a new OS X user suppose to know what that icon means? Bad for usability. Also Mac keeps resetting my user name to my first and last name: very annoying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You can pin anything you'd like to the sidebar in Finder. You can pin things to the Dock.

Sure you can pin, but how many things can you pin until your sidebar is clattered? 10? Windows Libraries feature is much more powerful: you can pin unlimited number of files and you can create hierarchical nested structure to organize them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Do you not understand the concept of a keyboard shortcut. You see you enable/disable, change the keys, and add/remove items right from System Preferences.

Sure Mac has shortcuts, but Window is more keyboard friendly. For instance can you browse the Mac Apple menu using keyboard? On Windows you can browse the Start Menu. Or can you access any of the Photoshop filters using keyboard only? Teach me a trick, because on Windows you can. In fact, you have keyboard only access to a menu bar on any completely unknown to you windows program.

Mac IIcx, Mac Quadra 800, Mac Performa 5200, Power Mac 8600, LaserWriter, iPhone 3G, iPad 3G, iPhone 4S | MacBook Pro, 27" iMac, iPad 3 LTE

Reply

Mac IIcx, Mac Quadra 800, Mac Performa 5200, Power Mac 8600, LaserWriter, iPhone 3G, iPad 3G, iPhone 4S | MacBook Pro, 27" iMac, iPad 3 LTE

Reply
post #109 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury99 View Post

That's right: you can't maximize window in Mac OS.

Except you can in Lion. Not that anyone has any reason to.

Quote:
Well, if you are in driver seat, would you want your steering weel to be on passenger side? "That's just backasswards."

Worthless analogy. Or maybe you're Schrödinger and can sit in both seats at once.

Quote:
cluttered [siNc]

Quote:
...unlimited number of files ...hierarchical nested structure...

OH, yeah⸮​ MUCH better⸮​ This is the way to do things⸮​

Quote:
Sure Mac has shortcuts, but Window is more keyboard friendly. For instance can you browse the Mac Apple menu using keyboard? On Windows you can browse the Start Menu. Or can you access any of the Photoshop filters using keyboard only?

"Hey, guys, I have a great idea. Let's completely ignore all advances in GUI technology since 1982 and just use our keyboards for everything."
post #110 of 154
Honestly, I wouldn't call this a drastic departure at all, as far as the concept for interface elements is concerned. To the contrary, it seems apparent, to me anyway, that the "Ribbon" is directly lifted from the "Format Bar" that Apple designed for iWork, although poorly implemented (as usual).

The 'departure' I see going on in Windows 8 is that Microsoft has taken the "Ribbon" (an interface appropriate for applications) and applied it to a filesystem browser, while also choosing to show every function, including the kitchen sink, by default (clutter).

Apple on the other hand provides tools relevant to file management and shows only the most basic set of tools by default. As most Mac users should know by now, the Finder's toolbar is customizable with all sorts of buttons. You can make the Finder toolbar almost (almost) as cluttered as Windows' if you want to. There is another difference though - the "Ribbon" buttons are huge, look like they're just randomly thrown on there, many being completely pointless, and they take up way too much precious vertical screen real estate.

What is truly different though, is the potential for Windows 8 to get the "Tiles" interface of Windows Mobile, while Apple makes MacOS Lion (and future releases) more like iOS. That's where I think we might start to see a real departure, with MS coming up with their own ideas for the 1st time in history.
post #111 of 154
Great. Not happy with the direction Lion is taking, and now MS is bringing that abomination known as the Ribbon Interface to the next version of Windows.

Can anyone recommend a flavor of Linux for me to move to???
post #112 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury99 View Post

Yes, I am embarrassed about this one. This just proves my point: Mac caps lock indicator is less explicite: it is icon based vs. the actual text message on Windows. Mac has no tool tip or anything: how a new OS X user suppose to know what that icon means? Bad for usability. Also Mac keeps resetting my user name to my first and last name: very annoying

Dear User,
I, your OS, bid you hello. You may not be aware of this and it could be entirely intentional on your part but I feel I must inform you of your current situation as you spend the next moment typing your password into the appropriate field. My apologies for treating you like a complete moron and wasting your time as if are likely to miss the visual indicator on screen in the password field in which you are typing or the visual indicator on the keyboard, if you happen to be a touch typist, but I felt I must write a pointless paragraph and give you a third visual clue that your caps locks is enabled.
Sincerely,
Mac OS X
Why don't you submit that to Apple.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #113 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury99 View Post

Sure Mac has shortcuts, but Window is more keyboard friendly. For instance can you browse the Mac Apple menu using keyboard? On Windows you can browse the Start Menu. Or can you access any of the Photoshop filters using keyboard only? Teach me a trick, because on Windows you can. In fact, you have keyboard only access to a menu bar on any completely unknown to you windows program.

Control+F2.

Control+F3 goes to the Dock, Control+F8 goes to the Status Menus. Using Control+F7 you can turn on tab movement between all UI elements, rather than just those that would expect keyboard input (like text boxes). Under Keyboard/Keyboard Shortcuts/Keyboard & Text Input they're all listed. They've been there for quite some time.
post #114 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury99 View Post

Wow. In Lion you finally can! 15 year later after Windows. This just tells me how immature Mac OS is. Well, for me it is still unavailable: my IT department advised us against upgrading to Lion due to some issues.

That's right: you can't maximize window in Mac OS. "Optimize" is a partial solution.


Well, if you are in driver seat, would you want your steering weel to be on passenger side? "That's just backasswards."


Yes, I am embarrassed about this one. This just proves my point: Mac caps lock indicator is less explicite: it is icon based vs. the actual text message on Windows. Mac has no tool tip or anything: how a new OS X user suppose to know what that icon means? Bad for usability. Also Mac keeps resetting my user name to my first and last name: very annoying.


Sure you can pin, but how many things can you pin until your sidebar is clattered? 10? Windows Libraries feature is much more powerful: you can pin unlimited number of files and you can create hierarchical nested structure to organize them.


Sure Mac has shortcuts, but Window is more keyboard friendly. For instance can you browse the Mac Apple menu using keyboard? On Windows you can browse the Start Menu. Or can you access any of the Photoshop filters using keyboard only? Teach me a trick, because on Windows you can. In fact, you have keyboard only access to a menu bar on any completely unknown to you windows program.

windows is a mess. if you leave it for a good length of time then come back you can see that. its nice to not be constantly concerned that every link, attachment, etc is possible malware and going to bring you to a screeching halt. nice to not have to worry every single day if your machine has the latest patches for every program on board, nice that you can actually find everything easily, nice to not be waiting on some bizarre slowdown cuz an app decided to hog the cpu, nice to not be hassled or even completely shutdown cuz your 'license key' didn't activate, or that your install can't be 'activated' cuz you did a bare metal and not an 'upgrade' (of course you find out after you spent 8 hours installing, patching).
anyone still buying this product has no sense and any business not currently working to get it removed is managed by morons.
post #115 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by pondosinatra View Post

Great. Not happy with the direction Lion is taking, and now MS is bringing that abomination known as the Ribbon Interface to the next version of Windows.

Can anyone recommend a flavor of Linux for me to move to???

With changes at Apple likely in the near future i wouldn't abandon os x, ios. with steve gone i imagine some loosening of the reins to take place (particularly when stock goes down, sales slow). It really is a big change in paradigm for computer use that Lion is ushering in. for many it will be an amazing, helpful change.
But for some that need extreme control you can always go with Ubuntu or Fedora. I personally use Ubuntu as my day to day machine but am contemplating a return to os x....just waiting to see what happens with hardware in the next few months.
post #116 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

"Hey, guys, I have a great idea. Let's completely ignore all advances in GUI technology since 1982 and just use our keyboards for everything."

I am disabled veteran - keyboard is easier for me.

Mac IIcx, Mac Quadra 800, Mac Performa 5200, Power Mac 8600, LaserWriter, iPhone 3G, iPad 3G, iPhone 4S | MacBook Pro, 27" iMac, iPad 3 LTE

Reply

Mac IIcx, Mac Quadra 800, Mac Performa 5200, Power Mac 8600, LaserWriter, iPhone 3G, iPad 3G, iPhone 4S | MacBook Pro, 27" iMac, iPad 3 LTE

Reply
post #117 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Dear User,
I, your OS, bid you hello. You may not be aware of this and it could be entirely intentional on your part but I feel I must inform you of your current situation as you spend the next moment typing your password into the appropriate field. My apologies for treating you like a complete moron and wasting your time as if are likely to miss the visual indicator on screen in the password field in which you are typing or the visual indicator on the keyboard, if you happen to be a touch typist, but I felt I must write a pointless paragraph and give you a third visual clue that your caps locks is enabled.
Sincerely,
Mac OS X
Why don't you submit that to Apple.

Brilliant writing. But any suggestion submitted to apple will take 15 years to implement. Mac OS does have the verbal message "incorrect name or password" - no icon here. I am sure you don't mind that they treat you "like a complete moron"?

Mac IIcx, Mac Quadra 800, Mac Performa 5200, Power Mac 8600, LaserWriter, iPhone 3G, iPad 3G, iPhone 4S | MacBook Pro, 27" iMac, iPad 3 LTE

Reply

Mac IIcx, Mac Quadra 800, Mac Performa 5200, Power Mac 8600, LaserWriter, iPhone 3G, iPad 3G, iPhone 4S | MacBook Pro, 27" iMac, iPad 3 LTE

Reply
post #118 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbarriault View Post

Control+F2.

Control+F3 goes to the Dock, Control+F8 goes to the Status Menus. Using Control+F7 you can turn on tab movement between all UI elements, rather than just those that would expect keyboard input (like text boxes). Under Keyboard/Keyboard Shortcuts/Keyboard & Text Input they're all listed. They've been there for quite some time.

Wow, these are cool shortcuts, thanks.

Mac IIcx, Mac Quadra 800, Mac Performa 5200, Power Mac 8600, LaserWriter, iPhone 3G, iPad 3G, iPhone 4S | MacBook Pro, 27" iMac, iPad 3 LTE

Reply

Mac IIcx, Mac Quadra 800, Mac Performa 5200, Power Mac 8600, LaserWriter, iPhone 3G, iPad 3G, iPhone 4S | MacBook Pro, 27" iMac, iPad 3 LTE

Reply
post #119 of 154
It may sound blasphemous, but my favorite file manager is Windows old 3.1 interface. Everything is listed and easy to see. I'm not a big fan of finder at all. Due to iPhoto's insane file management system, I save most of my photos in my "Pictures" folder in finder. However, if I pull one up, hitting the arrow button won't automatically go to the next picture. No, instead I have to select all photos I "might" want to browse and open them in Preview.

Oh, and don't even get me started on the delete button. Seriously, I've selected a file and hit delete, move it to the trash! Don't sit there and beep at me like you don't know what the f*** I want.

iPod, iPad, iPad2, iPad 3, iPad Mini, iPhone, iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4, iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, AppleTV (1,2 & 3), 13" MacBook Pro, 24" Cinema Display, Time Capsule, 21.5" iMac (Mid 2011)

Reply

iPod, iPad, iPad2, iPad 3, iPad Mini, iPhone, iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4, iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, AppleTV (1,2 & 3), 13" MacBook Pro, 24" Cinema Display, Time Capsule, 21.5" iMac (Mid 2011)

Reply
post #120 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's nice that you can put a unique background on each desktop in MC, but I'd like the option to rename the various desktops to something more useful than Desktop, Desktop 2, Desktop 3, etc.

True, and I've requested it. (You can too, go to apple.com/feedback)

You could, of course, also merge the desired name onto a set of different background images and get close to the same thing... (Mail, News, Development, ...)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Mac OS X
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Windows 8 design to radically depart from Mac OS X Lion