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So, is Lion worth the upgrade?

post #1 of 45
Thread Starter 
Hi. I'm on a late '09 21" iMac running Snow Leopard. I have not felt the pull to upgrade to Lion like I did for Leopard and Snow Leopard. In part I am holding off because my wife wants for us to get the magic trackpad, and so I figured if I upgraded, I'd do those two at the same time, just so everything felt fresh. Then, I also started contemplating upgrading my hard drive to a 1.5 or 2 TB drive (from my current 320GB), mostly because I've realized adding significant drive space would add several years to the computer's utility. So, I've also been thinking that I'd just wait to get the hard drive installed and do a clean install from there.

But, I see a bunch of complaints about Lion, and don't really think that the full screen features would really be much of a benefit in an iMac size screen. Also, I don't really know what else it seriously offers. Plus, then today it looks like iCloud will be supported in Snow Leopard, which I guess was sort of a no brainer.

So, my question for those who have upgraded is: is it worth it? It's not really about the $30. That's not the issue. But do the enhancements you get to the experience really make a marked difference in your life, like I think an upgrade should? I felt that Leopard did in terms of both features and performance. Lion I'm not yet sold on.

So, your thoughts, now that it's been out for a bit....
post #2 of 45
Don't learn a new OS and a new way of interacting with said OS at the same time.

Grab Lion first (or the Magic Trackpad, whichever) and get accustomed to it.

It's worth it. Lion's the way OS' are moving. And with a Magic Trackpad, it navigates like a DREAM. It's so natural. When Apple goes to a fully-multitouch desktop OS, you'll have moved from mouse+keyboard to multitouch trackpad+keyboard to multitouch screen+keyboard seamlessly.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #3 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Don't learn a new OS and a new way of interacting with said OS at the same time.

Grab Lion first (or the Magic Trackpad, whichever) and get accustomed to it.

It's worth it. Lion's the way OS' are moving. And with a Magic Trackpad, it navigates like a DREAM. It's so natural. When Apple goes to a fully-multitouch desktop OS, you'll have moved from mouse+keyboard to multitouch trackpad+keyboard to multitouch screen+keyboard seamlessly.

I should have waited a few months for Apple to iron out the kinks. It broke the way I listen to music (can't use analog speakers and the Apple TV at the same time), forced me to upgrade MS Office (which I was planning to do anyway) and broke a few tools I use almost daily (input-free photo resize dropplets, for which I haven't found a replacement) Then my iPhoto crashed, and my backup library was from before the upgrade, and wasn't compatible with the new version, so I am in the process of completely reorganizing and tagging 24,000 photos. it will take months.
post #4 of 45
To this point, I don't like it. I find in my small world and limited use, Lion is a step backwards. My primary use is web use for work and invoicing using Pages. We have designed an invoice in pages that I use all day, every day. I do not like the auto save feature in Lion. In my opinion, Pages does not work well with auto save. Spotlight will no longer search within Pages which is a big problem for us. My secretary and I are ready to switch back to Windows due to the poor performance after the Lion upgrade. We decided to change over to MacBooks last fall. After purchasing, we decided we would be forced to use Pages & Numbers for our company invoices instead of our previously designed Adobe PDF invoices. After the Lion upgrade, spotlight will only search within PDF files and not within Pages files. In Snow Leopard, we were able to search numerical values within pages files to find specific sales tax data necessary for accounting. This no longer works in Lion. Other problems I'm encountering are disappearing contacts in my address book and the Chrome browser is not working properly. I'm required to use a browser other than Safari because most websites within my industry don't work on Safari. I recommend waiting until Lion is fixed before trying. The things stopping me from going back to Snow Leopard are the issues I'm reading about regarding Pages & Numbers no longer working at all after going back.
post #5 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by RVTech View Post

After the Lion upgrade, spotlight will only search within PDF files and not within Pages files

You sure this isn't due to the Spotlight plugin not being installed properly? Check if you have /Library/Spotlight/iWork.mdimporter. You can also try rebuilding the Spotlight database by putting your main drive into the Spotlight privacy section and taking it out.
post #6 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by RVTech View Post

...After the Lion upgrade, spotlight will only search within PDF files and not within Pages files. In Snow Leopard, we were able to search numerical values within pages files to find specific sales tax data necessary for accounting. This no longer works in Lion...

Something's wrong with YOUR set-up, it's not an OSX problem.

Lion still spotlights Pages docs just fine.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #7 of 45
We have this on 2 MacBook Airs. They both do the same. We have tried forced reindexing. Neither has iworks mdimporter, but we purchased Pages & Numbers from the apps store and did not purchase iworks. Spotlight searches , but it will not search numerals. When searching for a numeral, it finds each and every amount searched for in all the PDF's, but none in Pages docs. The PDF's are there because some Pages invoices get converted when we email an invoice to a client. This is frustrating. We have been searching for a solution for weeks, but don't find any related posts anywhere. It seems we must be the only ones trying to search numerical values in Pages documents.
post #8 of 45
I just checked again, out of curiosity... searched in spotlight for numeric values... turned up the proper results in Pages docs.
So I'm still gonna stick with my answer that it's not a generic Lion problem... there's something wrong with your setup. (Like the aforementioned Spotlight/Library item.)
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #9 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parttimer View Post

Whatever happened to "it just works"?

Who needs all those bugs? Who can afford hours and hours to get it all set up and performing properly? Sofar Lion looks like a serious step back for user friendliness.

That certainly hasn't been MY experience.
My installs "just work" as advertised.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #10 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I just checked again, out of curiosity... searched in spotlight for numeric values... turned up the proper results in Pages docs.
So I'm still gonna stick with my answer that it's not a generic Lion problem... there's something wrong with your setup. (Like the aforementioned Spotlight/Library item.)

Ditto for my MacBook Air. Finds new Pages documents fine.
post #11 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Don't learn a new OS and a new way of interacting with said OS at the same time.

Grab Lion first (or the Magic Trackpad, whichever) and get accustomed to it.

It's worth it. Lion's the way OS' are moving. And with a Magic Trackpad, it navigates like a DREAM. It's so natural. When Apple goes to a fully-multitouch desktop OS, you'll have moved from mouse+keyboard to multitouch trackpad+keyboard to multitouch screen+keyboard seamlessly.

Is it the way OS' are moving? I love gestures. When I can remember them. I'm starting to lose track of how many there are though. I think Apple interfaces are becoming less and less discoverable and intuitive. They're good but...losing something. I feel this on the iPad and on Lion.

Then again, the tutorials for how to use gestures and the mouse etc. in System Preferences ARE excellent. Old school Apple actually. Kind of like Balloons and Apple Guides. But definitely not as good.

Apple STILL needs to put Balloons (Tool Tips on Windows, the hovering hints) and ALSO Apple Guides back. Apple Help is only useful to someone who knows roughly what they are looking for already. This is the difference between reference and tutorial. Guides are tutorials. And Balloons are WYSWIG...Gestures are the opposite. They remain hidden until used. A lot of good old-school Apple ideas seem to have died back in the 90s. And it's not entirely good. I'm not nostalgic for floppy disks or anything. But some of the old interfaces WERE simply BETTER. In my humble opinion. As you may see Lion is really rubbing me the wrong way so far on a variety of user interface issues...
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post #12 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

Is it the way OS' are moving? I love gestures. When I can remember them. I'm starting to lose track of how many there are though. I think Apple interfaces are becoming less and less discoverable and intuitive. They're good but...losing something. I feel this on the iPad and on Lion.

Then again, the tutorials for how to use gestures and the mouse etc. in System Preferences ARE excellent. Old school Apple actually. Kind of like Balloons and Apple Guides. But definitely not as good.

Apple STILL needs to put Balloons (Tool Tips on Windows, the hovering hints) and ALSO Apple Guides back. Apple Help is only useful to someone who knows roughly what they are looking for already. This is the difference between reference and tutorial. Guides are tutorials. And Balloons are WYSWIG...Gestures are the opposite. They remain hidden until used. A lot of good old-school Apple ideas seem to have died back in the 90s. And it's not entirely good. I'm not nostalgic for floppy disks or anything. But some of the old interfaces WERE simply BETTER. In my humble opinion. As you may see Lion is really rubbing me the wrong way so far on a variety of user interface issues...

My thoughts exactly.
I'll wait a bit more. It's not ready for me yet.
post #13 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parttimer View Post

Whatever happened to "it just works"?

Who needs all those bugs? Who can afford hours and hours to get it all set up and performing properly? Sofar Lion looks like a serious step back for user friendliness.

Lion is buggy. When I download pics and movie clips sometimes the icon is invisible. It's bizarre. It happened on my current Mini after upgrading, and it also happend to the Mini i just purchased so it's not an upgrade issue.
I don't need mission control or the fancy way windows now open, it's not necessary. I just want my computer to work and snow leopard for me worked better and smoother. I don't like the grayed out icons, it makes it look like I've clicked on it before and it can't be clicked on again, it just doesn't look right.
Yahoo mail isn't happy with lion but to be fair yahoo itself ruined their web based mail with the new layout, it just plain sucks now and the classic yahoo mail was brilliant in it's simplicity and design.

Why can't companies keep what works and stop F'ing around all the time!?
post #14 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve666 View Post

Lion is buggy. When I download pics and movie clips sometimes the icon is invisible.

Just the icon or the icon and its text?

Quote:
It's bizarre. It happened on my current Mini after upgrading, and it also happend to the Mini i just purchased so it's not an upgrade issue.

I've never heard of this on any version of any machine, either updated or clean installed.

Quote:
I don't need mission control or the fancy way windows now open, it's not necessary.

Neither is a GUI.

Quote:
I don't like the grayed out icons, it makes it look like I've clicked on it before and it can't be clicked on again, it just doesn't look right.

I'm confused. What do you mean by this?

Quote:
Yahoo mail isn't happy with lion but to be fair yahoo itself ruined their web based mail with the new layout, it just plain sucks now and the classic yahoo mail was brilliant in it's simplicity and design.

But then again, it's Yahoo!, so...

Quote:
Why can't companies keep what works and stop F'ing around all the time!?

Heaven forbid technology progresses.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #15 of 45
It's just the icon that is invisible, the text appears. If I click on it and move it around it appears.

By greyed out icons I mean the controls you click on in a window. They used to have some color to them (most likely blue), now they appear washed out and gray. I don't like the way it looks, it looks to me as if you clicked on them nothing would happen. Not sure if I explained that correctly.

I don't mind progress but things should get easier not more complicated. I'm more into function over form I guess.
post #16 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve666 View Post

It's just the icon that is invisible, the text appears. If I click on it and move it around it appears.

Strange. Sounds like an issue with the OS not updating the icon preview correctly. Do you have icon previews turned on or do you just have the generic icons show up?

Quote:
By greyed out icons I mean the controls you click on in a window. They used to have some color to them (most likely blue), now they appear washed out and gray. I don't like the way it looks, it looks to me as if you clicked on them nothing would happen. Not sure if I explained that correctly.

No, I get it. You're talking about the monochrome buttons in the Finder's top bar; I see.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #17 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Strange. Sounds like an issue with the OS not updating the icon preview correctly. Do you have icon previews turned on or do you just have the generic icons show up?



No, I get it. You're talking about the monochrome buttons in the Finder's top bar; I see.

I have the generic icons show up.

Yes, that was what I meant-the monochrome buttons
post #18 of 45
Thread Starter 
So, so far the answer seems to be a..... "meh."
post #19 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by icibaqu View Post

So, so far the answer seems to be a..... "meh."

You're on a forum where people come to get help with their problems. Of course all you're going to see is problems. Millions of people have no trouble with Lion.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #20 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You're on a forum where people come to get help with their problems. Of course all you're going to see is problems. Millions of people have no trouble with Lion.

And you are 'millions of people', right?
post #21 of 45
"Worth"

is a subjective topic. I've seen no show stoppers from my PoV but then again I'm using my Mac differently than other people.

As always if you require stability and the least amount of bugs you're probably best off waiting until 10.7.4 or later.
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post #22 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Third Man View Post

And you are 'millions of people', right?

Five seconds of searching will show that I'm not the only one without problems. Please stop the act.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #23 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

As always if you require stability and the least amount of bugs you're probably best off waiting until 10.7.4 or later.

No... If you require the fewest bugs and the most stability, then you should wait for 10.7.5 !!

No... that wasn't right... If you require the fewest bugs and the most stability, then you should wait for 10.7.6 !!

No... still got it wrong... If you require the fewest bugs and the most stability, then you should wait for 10.7.7 !!

No... I'll get it right this time!... If you require the fewest bugs and the most stability, then you should wait for 10.7.8 !!
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #24 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

No... If you require the fewest bugs and the most stability, then you should wait for 10.7.5 !!

No... that wasn't right... If you require the fewest bugs and the most stability, then you should wait for 10.7.6 !!

No... still got it wrong... If you require the fewest bugs and the most stability, then you should wait for 10.7.7 !!

No... I'll get it right this time!... If you require the fewest bugs and the most stability, then you should wait for 10.7.8 !!

If you REALLY require the fewest bugs and most stability, you want Mac OS 7.6 (no 10 in front). It's the first to have the "Mac OS" monicker, and it deserved it.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #25 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parttimer View Post

Apparently I touched an open nerve.
Sorry guys!

I don't have a creative reaction image showing a nondescript person creating a metaphorical wound on a topic and then pouring salt on it himself, so just imagine one here.

And given my penchant of photoshopping Steve Jobs into my reaction image scenarios, it probably wouldn't be well received, anyway.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #26 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parttimer View Post

Apparently I touched an open nerve.
Sorry guys!


Not to worry... osmosis will create a monopoly and then we'll start paying attention to what you post.
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #27 of 45
Lion sucks but you'll need to get the latest and greatest software.
post #28 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by dacloo View Post

Lion sucks but you'll need to get the latest and greatest software.

Correction: Lion sucks AND you need the latest and greatest software, AND many older applications won't work anymore.
post #29 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck O. Jones View Post

Correction: Lion sucks AND you need the latest and greatest software, AND many older applications won't work anymore.

post #30 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartermaster View Post


Is there a particular reason you are replying to your own accounts?

Just to be clear to other users, Rokcet Scientist = Parttimer = Chuck O Jones = Quartermaster.

There's bound to be someone who finds some common ground with you without you having to create your own friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacloo

Lion sucks but you'll need to get the latest and greatest software.

There were a few PPC surprises but not too many. Most software packages will be Intel-compatible by now. I've found Lion to be very similar to Snow Leopard overall and so I'd say there's not all that many compelling reasons to upgrade.

Some might say that having few reasons to upgrade and there being issues would make it a bad update but I don't consider it to be bad at all. Some of the features are quite nice and long overdue but if you are happy with Snow Leopard, just don't feel like you have to rush into updating.
post #31 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Is there a particular reason you are replying to your own accounts?

Just to be clear to other users, Rokcet Scientist = Parttimer = Chuck O Jones = Quartermaster.

I did not know that. I seriously did think that Quartermaster was Parttimer, but I didn't know about the others.

Can't we just blanket IP ban all the accounts, or are there legitimate users near him that would be affected?

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #32 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Can't we just blanket IP ban all the accounts, or are there legitimate users near him that would be affected?

It's an option, I will check which of the available options will be the most suitable.
post #33 of 45
I won't be upgrading my laptop anytime soon.

Reasons are.
I have an incompatible version of MS Office that will cost $120 to upgrade. In theory Pages replaces Word but it won't even read documents that are password protected.

I have an incompatible but latest decent version of Quicken with 15 years of data that I can't afford to lose, and the only version of Quicken on Lion is hopelessly inadequate..

Lion Calendar is very flakey. First t duplicated all data then it lost several months all my calendar data and had to reenter a large number of events.

I spent all of Thursday evening sorting out my mail which had frozen and required a re-install, having lost several emails.

Although 10.7.1 cut out the daily crashes that many on this forum blamed on Adobe it still crashes every 3 or 4 days usually after the machine has been in sleep mode.

By the way none of these problems are just me as they are extensive documented on Apple forums.

Bottom line for me Lion looks great and the UI features are futuristic. However if you really rely on your machine for serious or business purposes stay on Leopard for at least one more release.
post #34 of 45
I upgraded weeks ago and have never regretted it...

I've had NONE of the problems you listed (or any others for that matter)... the iMacs stay on all the time, restarted only when installs require it, or when the power dies. Not often. Not a single crash yet since the problem-free upgrades.

The Mini is always on, 'cept it's set to turn off during the night when it's never used and restart in the morning. SO daily cycles and never a crash or problem.

Only app that failed? Rosetta Stone didn't work (5 year old PPC app), so I upgraded to the latest version and THAT works fine... also garnered me iPad and iPhone support for Rosetta Stone... If I'm gonna run the latest OS, I might as well run the latest versions of other Apps if needed!

You're welcome to all your problems, but if there were really that many problems with it en masse, it would make headlines...
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #35 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Only app that failed? Rosetta Stone didn't work (5 year old PPC app), so I upgraded to the latest version and THAT works fine... also garnered me iPad and iPhone support for Rosetta Stone... If I'm gonna run the latest OS, I might as well run the latest versions of other Apps if needed!

Rosetta needs Rosetta. How fitting.

When will they update? Who knows. Even Rosetta Stone Totale doesn't work.

I was learning Hindi and Irish. I miss them And it's almost getting to the part where it's inexcusable that software for which I've paid no longer works.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #36 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post


Only app that failed? Rosetta Stone didn't work (5 year old PPC app), so I upgraded to the latest version and THAT works fine... also garnered me iPad and iPhone support for Rosetta Stone... If I'm gonna run the latest OS, I might as well run the latest versions of other Apps if needed!

Was the upgrade free or did you have to pay for it?

IMO, if Rosetta learns about this failure from past purchasers, they might well do something to overcome it. If new buyers hear that they might lose what they've paid for whenever there's a new OS, they just might not buy Rosetta in the first place. With all the expensive advertising that Rosetta does, I doubt that they would want that to happen.

So, if you've had an issue like this, please let Rosetta know.
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post #37 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Rosetta needs Rosetta. How fitting.

When will they update? Who knows. Even Rosetta Stone Totale doesn't work.

I was learning Hindi and Irish. I miss them And it's almost getting to the part where it's inexcusable that software for which I've paid no longer works.

The latest/newest version of RS DOES work with Lion.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #38 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Was the upgrade free or did you have to pay for it?

IMO, if Rosetta learns about this failure from past purchasers, they might well do something to overcome it. If new buyers hear that they might lose what they've paid for whenever there's a new OS, they just might not buy Rosetta in the first place. With all the expensive advertising that Rosetta does, I doubt that they would want that to happen.

So, if you've had an issue like this, please let Rosetta know.

Of course I had to pay for it!

I was replacing 5 year old software with a brand new version. The old version was designed for PPC hardware/OS. When that software was sold, it made sense to support PPC... and they hadn't yet (obviously) developed a fat binary version... since then they have ... and I suppose the next version will be strictly intel.

Rosetta Stone ALREADY knows. Their site is pretty explicit about what the software works with and what it doesn't.


IN any case, one App out of many dozens required a paid update... I really don't see how thats so burdensome or unreasonable as the OS progresses.
If it still supported all software from 10 or 20 (where do we stop?) years ago, you'd complain about how bloated the OS is... how all that legacy support is just holding the OS back!
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #39 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

The latest/newest version of RS DOES work with Lion.

Oh? How do I update mine? The application refuses to open.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #40 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Oh? How do I update mine? The application refuses to open.

I have version 4 ... i just click on the app (well.. the alias in the dock) and it opens ... pretty simple...
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