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Baidu forks Android to introduce its own mobile OS for China - Page 4

post #121 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by d-range View Post

Maybe, but meanwhile, all these forks are counted as 'Android' to prove how 'Android' is taking over the world in market share.

Fact of the matter is that Android is starting to move from a stable, well-defined phone-OS to a toolbox for phone manufacturers to pick and choose whatever they need. This is great for them, but there is simply no denying that for developers and users, it will create frustrating incompatibilities and limit app selection.

We've been there before, just about 5 years ago, if you remember. The only people installing 'apps' back then were geeks and professionals, and it took a lot of figuring out which phone could do what, which apps would work on said phone, where to get said apps, how to get them, how to pay for them, how to get support, how to get updates. I don't think I have to tell you what happened that changed all of this, and made smartphones and apps a commodity that everyone could use and enjoy without having to think about hardware, OS's, app stores, payment options, and other things that you get for free if you allow spinning off multiple versions of the same platform. Collective memory appears to be pretty short, especially among Android fans

As an aside: I always have to laugh when people point to Windows, Linux or OS X as 'proof' that fragmentation is not an issue, I mean, just look at all these different OS's, screen sizes, hardware specs etc, right? As if it's still not clear that most people actually hate using computers, and as if one of OS X's strengths isn't that it provides a uniform and easy experience on all supported hardware.

If my collective memory is short, then so is yours. We don't live in the world of 5 years ago.

The reason only geeks installed apps 5 years ago was because the only other people using smartphones needed them for work, usually just for email and to them it was just a WORK TOOL.

One of the things that's happened since then is the iPhone, maybe you heard of it? See, the thing about the iPhone WASN'T that it just redefined the smartphone, which it did. The thing about it is it redefined the MARKET for the smartphone. Suddenly people who weren't "Geeks" wanted to put stuff on their devices, or use their phone to get their email. This new market will NOT go away just because a few companies decide to Fork android, specifically because these companies DO NOT market these forks AS android.

The other thing that happened in the past 5 years is that being a "geek" started becoming cool again. People are on computers more than they ever were, and they're using apps like Twitter, Foursquare, Facebook, Google+, etc. to keep in contact with eachother, and meet strangers, more than they ever have. The internet isn't some "big scary" place anymore, it's a community for a lot of people, and embracing that community and the "geekiness" of it is being celebrated.

Being a Geek is mainstream, or close enough to it that it no longer is a fringe.

We won't revert to 5 years ago because we can't. Yes, there are android markets springing up all over the place. But do you want to know the NUMBER ONE reason devs are putting apps in different markets? It's to reach countries that don't have paid access in the Android market yet (and that number is quickly shinking). Amazon has it's own app store, yes. but devs hate it. Maybe they won't when they get the Kindle tablet running, but even then it's not that big of a deal.

And Baidu? Baidu will have a chinese government curated market. That's the only way it will get approved. Most app developers have no interest in that anyway. And the ones that do have a huge potential market to access, so the fork WILL BE WORTH IT.

And let me ask you what's worse: Coding a new app FROM SCRATCH because Baidu decided to write their own OS instead, or modifying existing code from your android app so it works with their fork?

If android Couldn't fork we'd have a greater number of incompatible operating systems, not just "fragmented" ones. Or are you blind enough to assume that all of these companies "forking" android would just be content not making their own ecosystems and paying to be part of iOS instead?
post #122 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by d-range View Post

Not saying this to offend you, but you really come off as being in denial about Android fragmentation, and that way failing to recognize the real reasons why Netflix isn't on your Galaxy Tab or why you have to root some devices to run Tegra games.

The point is: fragmentation is not just about what the hardware and software *can* do, but also what people companies and *actually do with it*. Like someone before me pointed out, Netflix has contracts that require them to warrant a certain level of security, and this takes time and money for each OS and each piece of hardware, so they decide to support only a few. Nvidia wants to promote their own hardware, so they decide to make deals with game companies to have their games only run on Tegra, even though other chips would work just fine. Amazon wants to have you buy everything through Amazon, so they leave out competing offerings and make their own app store. Companies like Epic and Id have products that are so expensive to develop and maintain, and are so critically dependent on hardware features, that they don't want to take a gamble investing too much into the Android platform. Developers and content providers who want to sell stuff do not want to have to deal with 20 different app stores and payment systems, so they pick one or two and leave the others out. I can go on for hours.

None of these examples are about hardware, but about logistics, cost-benefit analysis, risk, corporate politics, promoting own products, etc. If you can't see how this kind of fragmentation decreases value for the end-user, you are either blind or in denial.

Then, after all of this, comes the hardware fragmentation, which is also a pretty big issue for many types of applications. Not for a Twitter client, but definitely for a game studio. The Angry Birds example you linked is pretty ironic, seeing that shortly after that statement, Rovio actually apologized about how shitty their Android port ran on many handsets, and promised to create simplified version of it. It doesn't matter if it ran shitty because of ads, because if Rovio thought they could offer the game on Android without ads and still make good money, they wouldn't have to include ads in the first place. The same thinking goes for many other Android applications by the way: they need to include ads, because there are simply too many Android users who cannot buy the ad-free version, or simply don't want to because they are trained to think applications have to be 'free'. It's a real issue that is keeping AAA titles away from Android, even with the largest marketshare, there are thousands of AAA apps that are exclusively on iOS, yet there are virtually none that are exclusive on Android.

The issue keeping AAA apps from Android is monitization more than fragmentation. I'm not in denial about Android fragmentation. I've admitted COUNTLESS times that it existed. What I'm saying is that it is not the deal-breaker you're trying to make it out to be. I've even provided links where DEVELOPERS say as much. There are many others. And there are others on top of THAT from developers who've made money with Android.

There are TWO. Let's me say that again, TWO major app stores for android. If you want to hit most users you just need to develop for ONE. (amazon doesn't currently hit ANY devices the android market does not). The other app stores exist to offer paid app content to countries where the Android market can't offer it yet, and that list of countries is shrinking dramatically. Most app developers, if they even bother with those markets, will choose one or two markets to host content on, and that's it. There's not "20 different markets" they have to worry about hitting. That's a fallacy made up by people who don't use android, and parroted by people here who don't know any better.

and Rovio's angry birds port ran like shit because of the ADS. If you downloaded the (ad free) demo, it worked flawlessly on low end devices, or if these devices were rooted and ran an ad-blocker (which I don't support) it also ran well. The problem wasn't their app, it was their shitty implementation of ads. Apps with ads can run great on low end devices with ads enabled, so it wasn't ads causing the problem, just their implementation.

Fragmentation is a minor issue for all but an extreme minority of app-types. The problem is, developers want to port over their hard coded app from iOS and have it run flawlessly. These developers are stupid. the Android team has dozens of tutorials up on how to code around the screen size and OS issues, most of the developers you hear complaining are talking about points already dealt with in these tutorials.

The problem is the money. Android doesn't have an ecosystem like iTunes behind it. They don't have giftcards available everywhere, or a CHEAP non-smartphone device that can access the content (ipod touch) to expand the market past smartphone users. Heck, look at the amazon app store as an example. Developers pretty much universally agree it's SHIT to develop for because updates take weeks to push through, Amazon changes the terms all the time, and it's US only. And yet because of the ECOSYSTEM Amazon has, it's attracted new apps to the Android platform, some of which still have their apps exclusively on the limited market.
post #123 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless View Post

I got your point. But this is just a nature of things based on fact the Apple has virtually just one model of the phone and there are plenty of choices for Android. Want iPhone with HW keyboard ? Waterproof iPhone ? No way, that's just the other side of the coin.

And this is why I think comparing Android to iOS is almost meaningless. Hardware keyboard and waterproofing are basically hardware features for people who just want a phone for a specific purpose. If it surfs the web, great. Runs apps? OK cool. None of those things would be necessary for that market which means having a viable ecosystem is not needed much less a fairly wholistic one. Basically Android can have 70% of the market, but if half of those people don't really care about apps, what real incentive is there for developers to bring the latest and greatest to all devices? It just leaves fragmented markets that they need to research and then target. Is the Droid used by "power users" who actually buy/download apps? OK, let's target that phone. Is the Samsung Galaxy used for people who like to play games? OK, we will target that phone. I really don't think that is the best strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

But IMHO it's no more of an issue for the developers and users than the inability to even find good apps in Apple's Appstore. Not offering categories, or even an easy way to find highly rated applications, makes finding and purchasing newly released but quality apps a big problem. If you don't know the name you're looking for, how do you find them? Stumbling around? If I'm interested in subscribing to a tech magazine, how do I search? Or looking for a time manager, same question. The Android Market doesn't have the same problems in identifying quality apps in the area you're interested in. Search by name, keyword, categories or rating.

The App Store is far from perfect (and will never be since it has almost a half million products) but I'm not sure where you are going with this. The apps do have categories. Are some of them mislabeled? Sure. But I haven't had a huge problem with this. Also, Apple does have app genuis as well to help find apps. The main issue with both platforms is that developers need to realize that both stores are equivilant to brick and mortars which means that SOME form of marketing/advertising is needed for any real success. If Apple chooses someone's app as staff picks or features it in a TV commercial, great, but a person can't really rely on it. It takes some actual work like reaching out to tech blogs with a press release of new or distinct features or time limited discount, investing in mobile ads, commenting on sites like this with RELEVANT comments (not spam), etc. Simply submitting an app and hoping customers flock to it is the same as a shoe store depending on word-of-mouth.
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post #124 of 240
Duplicate
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post #125 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Menno and Gatorguy aren't so much in denial as that they are paid to deny.

Yeah...

they gotta' Ac-CEN-tu-ATE the NEG-a-tive, E-LIM-in-ATE the POS-i-TIVE, SCRATCH OFF of the af-FIRM-a-TIVE ... (and don't mess with Mr. In-between)...

...Apologies to Johnny Mercer
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post #126 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by soggybacon View Post

Cough cough... lawsuit... cough cough...

It's an OPEN source system, how can they sue, it's not like say Java or something that you pay royalties on.
post #127 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

It's an OPEN source system, how can they sue, it's not like say Java or something that you pay royalties on.

Android is in no way open source.

Sorry, that's a little sweeping.

Android is in no way entirely open source. There's plenty there that has been stolen that could be sued over.

Of course, that which has been stolen and that which hasn't was originally stolen by Google and can also be sued over.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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post #128 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Google has already said they will not give the newest OS version to forked version of Android. How are they going to keep up with API's.

Google has stated that APIs are expressions of pure function and not copyrightable. Oracle disagrees and claims that API structures are not purely functional and are therefore expressions of creativity and copyrightable.

If forks can't duplicate Android APIs then Android is dead anyway.
post #129 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Android is in no way open source.

Sorry, that's a little sweeping.

Android is in no way entirely open source. There's plenty there that has been stolen that could be sued over.

Of course, that which has been stolen and that which hasn't was originally stolen by Google and can also be sued over.

The problem is where do they sue? If the phone (and possible tablet?) is sold and used in only China and Baidu is a Chinese government backed company, there is simply no way Google could win a case against them.
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post #130 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

The problem is where do they sue? If the phone (and possible tablet?) is sold and used in only China and Baidu is a Chinese government backed company, there is simply no way Google could win a case against them.

And no way that Apple is going to sue them for any "Look And Feel" stuff or even touchscreen/multi-touch usage.
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post #131 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

And no way that Apple is going to sue them for any "Look And Feel" stuff or even touchscreen/multi-touch usage.

Yeah, I don't see that flying either although Apple did get the government to bust the fake Apple Stores (although I think that had more to do with angry consumers).
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post #132 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Android is in no way open source.

Sorry, that's a little sweeping.

Android is in no way entirely open source. There's plenty there that has been stolen that could be sued over.

Of course, that which has been stolen and that which hasn't was originally stolen by Google and can also be sued over.

People sue over everything, anything. Heck, Apple's been sued (and lost) over tech that they also acquired a patent for.

That's the problem. It's impossible to develop ANYTHING without infringing on patents somewhere.
post #133 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

The problem is where do they sue? If the phone (and possible tablet?) is sold and used in only China and Baidu is a Chinese government backed company, there is simply no way Google could win a case against them.

They WOULDN'T SUE. What Baidu is doing is perfectly legal as far as Google is concerned. They may wish for a different outcome, but as long as Baidu doesn't include GApps or the Android Market, what they do with the source is Their business.
post #134 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

That's the problem. It's impossible to develop ANYTHING without infringing on patents somewhere.

I don't buy that.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #135 of 240
"google should stop complaining and start innovating"
- Baidu
post #136 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I don't buy that.

Really? Name a SINGLE product made in the last decade that has anything approaching success and HASN'T been sued?

EDIT:
Interesting Side Note: Most Android blogs, or android leaning blogs are reporting this fork as just another company leveraging android. It's only on sites like this that people are screaming about Fragmentation.

The reason is that most of those sites see that Baidu had three options:

1) Adopt Android as is, which they can't do since Google is a direct competitor.
2) Take an existing OS and customize it for their own purposes (what they chose)
3) Spend millions developing another mobile platform from scratch that wouldn't be compatible with anything.

If they did option 3, then "android fragmentation" wouldn't exist, with the platform, that's right. But instead of trying to coax developers into customizing apps to line up with their changes, they'd have to convince them to start from scratch to get the game running on a WHOLE new platform.

So while managing an app across android "forks" might be less than ideal, it's a heck of a lot easier than trying to manage it across yet another new programming language. A fact that a lot of people here seem to forget.
post #137 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

Really? Name a SINGLE product made in the last decade that has anything approaching success and HASN'T been sued?

And that somehow implies that these products were infringing on existing patents? Try again.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #138 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

And this is why I think comparing Android to iOS is almost meaningless. Hardware keyboard and waterproofing are basically hardware features for people who just want a phone for a specific purpose. If it surfs the web, great. Runs apps? OK cool. None of those things would be necessary for that market which means having a viable ecosystem is not needed much less a fairly wholistic one. Basically Android can have 70% of the market, but if half of those people don't really care about apps, what real incentive is there for developers to bring the latest and greatest to all devices? It just leaves fragmented markets that they need to research and then target. Is the Droid used by "power users" who actually buy/download apps? OK, let's target that phone. Is the Samsung Galaxy used for people who like to play games? OK, we will target that phone. I really don't think that is the best strategy.


why would they target just a phone? that would be retarded. you can target specs so if your app requires phones with such and such minimum specs then it'll show only for phones that meet those requirements. API exists only in 2.3+? then boom. ultimately it seems you don't know as much about android as you think you do. logically you shouldn't make such sweeping assessments while being uninformed.

but that just makes sense.
post #139 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

And that somehow implies that these products were infringing on existing patents? Try again.

what else could they be sued for?
post #140 of 240
The fragmentation problem for Google is the obvious one...Baidu's fork will essentially kill Android growth in China while doing nothing to iOS and moderate to wp7. It doesn't MATTER to Google if the apps run on Baidu phones if Google is shut out of its Android monetization plans in China. Heaven help Google if this fork gains traction outside of China and into asia proper (unlikely in the extreme).

However, Korean Android or whatever also potentially locks out Google although less likely to. Unless, of course, MS writes someone an appropriately big check.

Amazon's fork, while still using the Google search engine as default, kills a lot of the tie in for other Google services and eyeball count.

So here you are as Google, out millions/billions for Android development and then another $12B for Moto and you STILL don't have your second revenue stream locked down. When is Android going in the black? And if it can't why dump more money down this particular pit as opposed to pulling another Google Wave and "gifting" the code to open source?
post #141 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

And that somehow implies that these products were infringing on existing patents? Try again.

http://www.againstmonopoly.org/index...58000000000599

It's been estimated that nearly a quarter million patents are involved in building one of today's smartphones. That's why every smartphone manufacturer is sued, often multiple times, for patent infringement. I'd have to agree with the idea that you cannot build a smartphone or tablet without infringing, or at least being accused of it.
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post #142 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

And that somehow implies that these products were infringing on existing patents? Try again.

Considering that EVERY company has lost at least SOME of these patents, not to mention settling out of court countless times does mean that they violated those patents.

Apple (famously) lost patent lawsuits to Creative over the iPod, to another company over Coverflow, and settled out of court with Nokia over other's still.

In fact, with the motorola and Samsung lawsuits, apple is NOT denying that they infringe on those patents. They're saying that those companies are trying to charge too high a fee for them, so they refused to pay and violated them anyway.
post #143 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

The fragmentation problem for Google is the obvious one...Baidu's fork will essentially kill Android growth in China while doing nothing to iOS and moderate to wp7. It doesn't MATTER to Google if the apps run on Baidu phones if Google is shut out of its Android monetization plans in China. Heaven help Google if this fork gains traction outside of China and into asia proper (unlikely in the extreme).

However, Korean Android or whatever also potentially locks out Google although less likely to. Unless, of course, MS writes someone an appropriately big check.

Amazon's fork, while still using the Google search engine as default, kills a lot of the tie in for other Google services and eyeball count.

So here you are as Google, out millions/billions for Android development and then another $12B for Moto and you STILL don't have your second revenue stream locked down. When is Android going in the black? And if it can't why dump more money down this particular pit as opposed to pulling another Google Wave and "gifting" the code to open source?

Because the code is ALREADY gifted as open source, which is why BAIDU can fork it. If the code wasn't available forking it would be IMPOSSIBLE.

This isn't rocket science here. It's not even particularly geeky.

Google pulled a lot OUT of china because of filtering restrictions. Baidu's Android fork will have little, if anything to do with impeding growth there since it's the Government (not user choice) that is restricting them.
post #144 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post

why would they target just a phone? that would be retarded. you can target specs so if your app requires phones with such and such minimum specs then it'll show only for phones that meet those requirements. API exists only in 2.3+? then boom. ultimately it seems you don't know as much about android as you think you do. logically you shouldn't make such sweeping assessments while being uninformed.

but that just makes sense.

Uninformed about what?! My post is about business/marketing for developers and NOT technical specs. Maybe you should learn reading comprehension before posting. The developer can make an app that works with specs for many phones but as far as reaching a viable market s/he would be best to look at actual phones. If someone is buying a phone because it is waterproof then they probably don't care that much about apps. Your app might run on the phone but that isn't who you are targeting. You would be targeting another phone with users that have in fact bought the phone specifically for apps. Both phones might have the same (or similar) specs and can run your app but that doesn't mean it's smart to target both equally.

Maybe you think coming up with 3-4 versions of an app to reach everybody whether s/he is in your market or not is wise? To which point I would say that you would be wrong.
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post #145 of 240
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Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

Uninformed about what?! My post is about business/marketing for developers and NOT technical specs. Maybe you should learn reading comprehension before posting. The developer can make an app that works with specs for many phones but as far as reaching a viable market s/he would be best to look at actual phones. If someone is buying a phone because it is waterproof then they probably don't care that much about apps. Your app might run on the phone but that isn't who you are targeting. You would be targeting another phone with users that have in fact bought the phone specifically for apps. Both phones might have the same (or similar) specs and can run your app but that doesn't mean it's smart to target both equally.

Maybe you think coming up with 3-4 versions of an app to reach everybody whether s/he is in your market or not is wise? To which point I would say that you would be wrong.

And you can do that, easily with Android. That's why Google releases marketshare stats frequently (for OS Versions/API levels). Developers also get Very detailed feedback once they publish an application as to what users are looking for in phones. If you're developing a high end game and plan on charging $4 or more for it, developing it for a phone that's free on contract because it's a minimum spec device is pointless, is it not?

Before, you had people STILL downloading the app even though the phone wasn't made for it. Now, developers can filter it out.
post #146 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

And you can do that, easily with Android. That's why Google releases marketshare stats frequently (for OS Versions/API levels). Developers also get Very detailed feedback once they publish an application as to what users are looking for in phones. If you're developing a high end game and plan on charging $4 or more for it, developing it for a phone that's free on contract because it's a minimum spec device is pointless, is it not?

Before, you had people STILL downloading the app even though the phone wasn't made for it. Now, developers can filter it out.

I am aware of the filtering. My original point was that the Android ecosystem is pretty dang loose which means total marketshare doesn't help developers much at all since there will many in the marketplace choosing those phones based solely on hardware specifics like waterproofing and hard keyboards and not on apps.
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post #147 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

I am aware of the filtering. My original point was that the Android ecosystem is pretty dang loose which means total marketshare doesn't help developers much at all since there will many in the marketplace choosing those phones based solely on hardware specifics like waterproofing and hard keyboards and not on apps.

Like I mentioned in another comment thread. The alternative is HTC, Samsung, Motorola, etc all making up their own OS with completely incompatible source code. Android is "lose" but you can hit the "majority" of your target market with only a couple customizations. You go more detailed than that, and you're aiming for the outlier (waterproof phone, etc)
post #148 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

Like I mentioned in another comment thread. The alternative is HTC, Samsung, Motorola, etc all making up their own OS with completely incompatible source code. Android is "lose" but you can hit the "majority" of your target market with only a couple customizations. You go more detailed than that, and you're aiming for the outlier (waterproof phone, etc)

Firstly, I said "loose" not "lose.". I don't want anyone to think I was insulting Android because I'm not a fan of ad homs and/or insults.

Secondly, I see your point but what is stopping the other handset makers from forking Android at a certain point meaning the source code in the beginning is in fact compatible. Of course the problem arises after that fact once each company starts adding it's own customizations and updates but by that time developers would just do what I already stated - looking at each phone/brand for markets are and usage patterns. In fact, with that scenario, you might even see OEMs paying development houses for exclusive apps to advertise/differentiate their phones.
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post #149 of 240
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Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

It's an OPEN source system, how can they sue, it's not like say Java or something that you pay royalties on.

Bad example! Oracle is arguing that it IS like Java
JLL

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95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #150 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

An overwhelming majority of apps can run across multiple devices. And by that I mean approaching 90% or more (at least of the popular ones) Not to mention that even cheaper devices are running off of snapdragon/TI chipsets now, so there's not anywhere near the hardware fragmentation their used to be.

Of those that can't (Netflix, Tegra only, etc) It's not because the other hardware can't run it. Take Netflix. It apparently "Can't run" on my Galaxy tab, but if I pull the file from my Incredible and install it on my tab (without touching the coding AT ALL) it works flawlessly. Whatever it is "checking" for it obviously finds in my Tab, so it plays. Yet Netflix decided not to offer it in the market.

For tegra games, all you need to do is have a rooted non-tegra device and you can get a file that will say that the phone is running a tegra chipset, and the games will play. The file of the game itself is again not altered. Yes, these games require dual core still, but most of them have single core versions as well.

I don't doubt that Apple's tighter integration of hardware and software allows for easier compatability across models, I'm just saying that the "Fragmentation" issue tends to get blown out of proportion. It does exist, but it's not the major issue people claim it is unless THEY make it so, or in very specific use-cases.

(People like to mention Angry birds not running on older devices. Angry birds ran fine on older devices, it was the ads that messed it up)

I don't know if we can come up with an accurate percentage, but I've read that it's much less than 90%. but most apps that do run across the spectrum are written for older versions of Android, that may be updated, but are not really using the features. Just like with iOS, OS X, Windows, Linux, etc. A lot of apps need to be updated, or completely rewritten whenever an OS undergoes a major update. It's more of a problem with Android than with iOS because of all the versions hanging out there. The three latest do carry most of the devices, but the latest is not close to a majority.

In addition there are a lot of business, medical, education, scientific and other apps that are not being written for Android, and many will likely never be written for it. The app developers claim that it IS because of fragmentation. Of course, for tablets, it's because of fragmentation and the fact that the iPad is close to a 90% marketshare in reality, as opposed to the silly comparisons made to manufacturers claiming tablets shipped, rather than sold to the end user. In a number of instances, the developers, which in many cases are rather big companies in their fields, say they have no interest in even looking at Android.

And as the expression goes, something we used to hear in the Windows/Mac debates: It's the software stupid!
post #151 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless View Post

Thats a bold (and false) statement that most Froyo application doesn't work on Gingerbread. You bother to provide any sources to support that bogus claim ?

Not bogus at all. I'll bet you've never even run It your self. But the real problem is Honeycomb.


Quote:
It is the same assumption that there are many people who run final version of iOS 5. There might be some people, but they are not allowed to answer your question. Generally speaking, both platforms are doing pretty decent job in backward compatibility.

Can you explain the "not allowed" statement?

Quote:
Hm, maybe it is problem for you, or that crowd of sheeple who will need to spend a night in the queue to get the iPhone X the very first day it is released, otherwise their life is ruined forever. Vast majority of the mobile users have no clue what version of OS they are using, and all they care their favorite app is available for their phone. Which is pretty much the case with both iOS 3, 4, 5 and Android Froyo, Gingerbread and Ice Cream Sandwich.

it's pretty obvious that you have your own strong bias, and so we can disregard your opinion, right?
post #152 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I was curious about that so I searched around. This is the list I found of UNIX certified OS versions/brands for anyone who might be interested. Not sure if the list needs updating since Lion is not included.

http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/

I didn't know that HP got theirs certified. Good for them. Otherwise, just the three I mentioned.
post #153 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Funny, but the developer of Angry Birds doesn't agree with you that it isn't a big deal:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20023199-264.html
""With our latest update, we worked hard to bring Angry Birds to even more Android devices. Despite our efforts, we were unsuccessful in delivering optimal performance,"
"it's going to create a second version of its flagship game for lower-end Android devices after finding "severe performance issues."


Or maybe:
http://gizmodo.com/5693428/angry-bir...entation-means
"despite having "hesitated to create multiple versions of Angry Birds" for Android, that's exactly what they're being forced to do in order to meet their goal of having it available on as many Android phones as possible."

And that was before some of the latest big forks.
Anyone who says that fragmentation isn't a problem for Android is dreaming.

It's a pretend world for Android techies. But most Android users use the phone mostly for calls, surfing, messaging, etc. They aren't big App users, so the problem isn't as noticeable as it would be.
post #154 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's a pretend world for Android techies. But most Android users use the phone mostly for calls, surfing, messaging, etc. They aren't big App users, so the problem isn't as noticeable as it would be.

Thanks for summarizing what I was trying to say in a paragraph that only took you two sentences. Android has a very loose ecosystem and size of its markets are isn't/doesn't mean much due to this fact.
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post #155 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Nice... Where is QNX?

Not there apparently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QNX
post #156 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's a pretend world for Android techies. But most Android users use the phone mostly for calls, surfing, messaging, etc. They aren't big App users, so the problem isn't as noticeable as it would be.

Mel, on what do you base the claim that Android users don't download apps? No doubt that iOS users have downloaded the most apps per user, particularly since they've been doing so longer than those with android devices, and had the larger market share until sometime last year. But "not as many" isn't the same as not being big app users.
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post #157 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post

I think where you two are not seeing eye-to-eye is the fact that OS X wasn't "officially" registered as Unix until Leopard (10.5). Prior to that, it was more accurate to say it was Unix-based. I honestly don't know the ins-and-outs of what it means to be a registered Unix but OS X only achieved that designation with 10.5.

Truly splitting hairs, I know, but hopefully that clarifies the point you're arguing.

Apple didn't apply for certification until then. It doesn't mean it wasn't UNIX until they received the certification. Most companies simply don't bother. But OS X could run UNIX programs without a problem. I did. You just needed to install X windows from Apple's install disk.
post #158 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

No doubt that iOS users have downloaded the most apps per user, particularly since they've been doing so longer than those with android devices, and had the larger market share until sometime last year. But "not as many" isn't the same as not being big app users.

iOS users had only been downloading native apps for 3 months longer than Android users. The app store launched in July 2008 and Android Marketplace launched in October 2008. Jailbreakers of course had apps longer but I wouldn't count them since they are not the typical iPhone user.
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post #159 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

In addition there are a lot of business, medical, education, scientific and other apps that are not being written for Android, and many will likely never be written for it. The app developers claim that it IS because of fragmentation. Of course, for tablets, it's because of fragmentation and the fact that the iPad is close to a 90% marketshare in reality, as opposed to the silly comparisons made to manufacturers claiming tablets shipped, rather than sold to the end user. In a number of instances, the developers, which in many cases are rather big companies in their fields, say they have no interest in even looking at Android.

And as the expression goes, something we used to hear in the Windows/Mac debates: It's the software stupid!

This is an excellent point. Even though the iPad had the advantages of being first to market and a year lead time without meaningful competition, Apple did not court or sell to the enterprise/IT community.

Yet, enterprise has adopted iPads almost exclusively. Every week or so you read a story where this or that organization is deploying large multiples of iPads to implement a specific solution. I can't recall any such deployments of competitive tablets.

Certainly, you would think that Android would have appeal to IT and organizational developers (install base, several hardware alternatives, [relatively] open source, etc.) But, it appears that just the opposite has happened -- they have been turned off by lack of standardization, lack of a complete [implementation of a] hardware/softare package, ease of hacking, susceptibility to viruses, lack of security, etc.

The very things about android, that appeal to the techie consumers -- are a turnoff for enterprise/IT.

It becomes a very easy business decision: The iPad gives us [most] everything we need [with very little downside] at an excellent price -- Why waste time [and opportunity] looking at anything else?

Indeed!

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post #160 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

iOS users had only been downloading native apps for 3 months longer than Android users. The app store launched in July 2008 and Android Marketplace launched in October 2008. Jailbreakers of course had apps longer but I wouldn't count them since they are not the typical iPhone user.

Realistically IMO the Android Market didn't open shop until March of '09 when the first paid apps became available. Prior to that the few apps that the Market offered were simple and/or direct from Google themselves. On the market share side, until the original Droid was released in October/2009, Android phones were just an afterthought with no real market presence at all. That puts the Android push just two years old, tho technically there were Android phones and a limited Android Market before then.

But really that's doesn't affect Mels' claim that as a rule Android users use their smartphones as a phone and browser while Apple users would actually use apps, downloading many times more than their typical Android counterparts. I disagree with his assessment.
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