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Baidu forks Android to introduce its own mobile OS for China - Page 5

post #161 of 240
9/6/11 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post

The problem with some Android manufacturers is that they have to make a version of Android for each particular model.

Some phones run one skin... some run another. That's why it takes months before an Android phone can be upgraded to the latest version.

But really.... they would rather not take the time to do that. They are busy pumping out new phones every month.

If you're a company with over a dozen models coming out every year... you focus on new sales... not supporting old models.

If I buy an Android phone tomorrow... what are the chances it will run Ice Cream Sandwich someday?

But it's also Google's fault. They come out with new upgrades several times a year. I know they call them updates, but they aren't. They're mini upgrades. apple issues updates. We get security improvements, bug fixes, and sometimes a minor feature. But Google delivers upgrade features. Sometimes they change the way software interacts with the OS, and even the hardware. There is no way that OEM's, working on several phone releases each year can keep up with that. So there is no sync between new phones and new upgrades. The more change a phone model has, the longer it takes to produce, so we see the strange fact of a new phone coming out with an OS version one or two versions behind. And often, they never get upgraded. Samsung, the most popular Android manufacturer is famous for that. But the others do it to.

The problem is that they don't know what Google is going to do with Android, so they can't anticipate it in their newest designs. I get a very strong feeling that Google doesn't know what they're going to do with their OS a year in advance. So much of it is posthaste in competition with what Apple does. A bit of a "let's do this before Apple does, quickly!" But it isn't well thought out, which is why most reviewers say that Android always seems unfinished, and crude.

So they do one better with notifications, but it's not nearly as much as they could have. Now, Apple does something that Android fans say is a copy, just because it comes down from the top of the screen, as though there is another way to do it. But Apple's is vastly more sophisticated. Likely, they've been working on it for years.
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post #162 of 240
9/6/11 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post


Most apps from before version X work flawlessly on version X...like 95%+ those that don't would have to be either 1.X old or unsupported by the devs which is not Google's fault at all.

Except we know that's not true. Plenty of apps don't work across upgrades, and never will, plenty of apps don't work across phones, and many never will. We've got evidence about Angry Birds posted right here in the thread. They aren't close to being the only ones, just possibly, the most well known. Google hides apps that don't work on devices that can't run then, so it's not surprising that people aren't aware of what won't work on their own device.

Most people don't read ArsTechnica, or Anandtech, or Appleinsider, etc. They just read popular sites and mags. They aren't even aware when a new OS upgrade comes out!

Quote:
Funny...Google refusing to cave to China's totalitarian rules yet Apple and MS not minding said rules and you still wanna say Google sucks? lol

Google is all flash. I don't believe a thing they say anymore. They weren't doing well in China before, and I wouldn't be surprised if they just gave it up to cut their losses, and to market that decision in other countries. After all, that's what they are, a marketing and advertising company.
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post #163 of 240
9/6/11 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

Because the code is ALREADY gifted as open source, which is why BAIDU can fork it. If the code wasn't available forking it would be IMPOSSIBLE.

2.x is gifted.
3.x is not.
4.x is most likely to be open.

5.x ?????

The point isn't whether or not that Baidu or Amazon could fork...they did. The question is whether Android stays open past the promised ICS release or if Google forks an open version of android driven by "the community" and one, more fully featured version, for Google Market handsets.

Will Google fund the development of competing ecosystems?
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post #164 of 240
9/6/11 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Yes, Android fragmentation can be an issue for some minor number of applications. My son has run into some games he'd like to run that aren't compatible with his inexpensive prepaid phone. Not at all common, but there are a few. So I'd have to agree that hardware choices by the handset manufacturer's can cause some app compatibility problems, an issue that will need to be addressed. Google has indicated they agree with that assessment and are attempting to get the Handset Alliance members to standardize pertinent hardware. No idea if they'll be successful.

But IMHO it's no more of an issue for the developers and users than the inability to even find good apps in Apple's Appstore. Not offering categories, or even an easy way to find highly rated applications, makes finding and purchasing newly released but quality apps a big problem. If you don't know the name you're looking for, how do you find them? Stumbling around? If I'm interested in subscribing to a tech magazine, how do I search? Or looking for a time manager, same question. The Android Market doesn't have the same problems in identifying quality apps in the area you're interested in. Search by name, keyword, categories or rating.

Both platforms have issues with the application markets. One is poorly designed (IMO), failing to anticipate that the huge number of apps if offers would create it's own problems, a issue that goes on uncorrected. The other has different hardware combos limiting some app compatibility, along with some apps reportedly not being the same quality as their iOS counterpart. There's very few active devices on old OS versions creating an incompatibility problem.
So which app store is worse? Which creates more roadblocks for a new developer?

It's not that hard. And until recently, it was almost impossible to find anything in the Android Market. Then Google redesigned it to look more like Apple's App Store.

Apple has plenty of categories, and you can always type a word and selections will come up. Not as hard as you think.

Is it perfect? Of course not. It will never be perfect when there are so many apps. But it's not bad, and Apple improves it as time goes on.
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post #165 of 240
9/6/11 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Google is all flash. I don't believe a thing they say anymore. They weren't doing well in China before, and I wouldn't be surprised if they just gave it up to cut their losses, and to market that decision in other countries. After all, that's what they are, a marketing and advertising company.

I consider that an insult... to the marketing and advertising professions.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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– Alan Kay –
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post #166 of 240
9/6/11 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Google is all flash. I don't believe a thing they say anymore. They weren't doing well in China before, and I wouldn't be surprised if they just gave it up to cut their losses, and to market that decision in other countries. After all, that's what they are, a marketing and advertising company.

Are you proposing that Google made up the whole Chinese Gov't hacking of dissident email accounts simply to giove them cover for giving up on a failed China strategy? The hacking of US Government and Fortune 500 companies another fairy-tale that Google made up about the Chinese government? Surely your head isn't buried that far in the sand Mel.

You may want to believe everything about Google is evil, but at least give them props when they do the right thing.

melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #167 of 240
9/6/11 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

And I'm telling you, that problem is bullshit. If that DRM was required by studios, it would be BUILT IN to the .apk (which it used to be). But with the newest version of the application, for several versions now infact, all you have to do is side-load it onto your device and it works flawlessly. You'll also notice that the list of "approved" devices has no pattern to it. All chipsets, all OS "skins" and multiple OS versions are represented. The block is purely a political move, or at least something done for non-DRM reasons. If it was a DRM issue, then ALL tegra2 devices would be certified, not just one or two of them.

Note, this is NOT hacking the software itself. I don't believe you should do this if there are DRM issues involved (no matter what I think about said issues) because doing that will just give the studios fuel for the fire. This is why I haven't downloaded the "modified" Google Video file that will let me play rentals on my Rooted phone. All you have to do with the netflix is pull the file from a phone it can be installed on, and then side-load it, unaltered, into your new device.

When you install the app, it checks to make sure it can install, and then when you sign in it registers it with the service. At both points, DRM would be checked. And guess what? It passes. Netflix will work on basically ANY smartphone/tablet, but for whatever reason Netflix is only allowing certain devices to download it directly from the market.

So why would they self limit their customer base? No company does that intentionally. Other than compatibility problems with DRM, licenses and possibly some other problems large and small, what possible reason would they have to do this? You haven't given a reason for that. You must have some explanation.
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post #168 of 240
9/6/11 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

If my collective memory is short, then so is yours. We don't live in the world of 5 years ago.

The reason only geeks installed apps 5 years ago was because the only other people using smartphones needed them for work, usually just for email and to them it was just a WORK TOOL.

One of the things that's happened since then is the iPhone, maybe you heard of it? See, the thing about the iPhone WASN'T that it just redefined the smartphone, which it did. The thing about it is it redefined the MARKET for the smartphone. Suddenly people who weren't "Geeks" wanted to put stuff on their devices, or use their phone to get their email. This new market will NOT go away just because a few companies decide to Fork android, specifically because these companies DO NOT market these forks AS android.

The other thing that happened in the past 5 years is that being a "geek" started becoming cool again. People are on computers more than they ever were, and they're using apps like Twitter, Foursquare, Facebook, Google+, etc. to keep in contact with eachother, and meet strangers, more than they ever have. The internet isn't some "big scary" place anymore, it's a community for a lot of people, and embracing that community and the "geekiness" of it is being celebrated.

Being a Geek is mainstream, or close enough to it that it no longer is a fringe.

We won't revert to 5 years ago because we can't. Yes, there are android markets springing up all over the place. But do you want to know the NUMBER ONE reason devs are putting apps in different markets? It's to reach countries that don't have paid access in the Android market yet (and that number is quickly shinking). Amazon has it's own app store, yes. but devs hate it. Maybe they won't when they get the Kindle tablet running, but even then it's not that big of a deal.

And Baidu? Baidu will have a chinese government curated market. That's the only way it will get approved. Most app developers have no interest in that anyway. And the ones that do have a huge potential market to access, so the fork WILL BE WORTH IT.

And let me ask you what's worse: Coding a new app FROM SCRATCH because Baidu decided to write their own OS instead, or modifying existing code from your android app so it works with their fork?

If android Couldn't fork we'd have a greater number of incompatible operating systems, not just "fragmented" ones. Or are you blind enough to assume that all of these companies "forking" android would just be content not making their own ecosystems and paying to be part of iOS instead?

I agree with everything you've said here, except the part about geeks. People haven't turned into geeks, and it's not really cool, except to other geeks. What's happened is what always happens to technology. It became simpler. Just as when cars first came out. You had to crank them, oil them, check pressure, grease the chain - every 6 miles! So few people owned one. Those who did were like the geeks of today.

But today, almost everyone owns, or at least drives a car. No geeks there, except for the few who still fuss around. For them, the fussing is more important than the using. Same thing with computer tech. Most people are users, simple. But the geeks like to fuss around more than use the device. The pride is in the fussing, not the use.
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post #169 of 240
9/6/11 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno View Post

The issue keeping AAA apps from Android is monitization more than fragmentation. I'm not in denial about Android fragmentation. I've admitted COUNTLESS times that it existed. What I'm saying is that it is not the deal-breaker you're trying to make it out to be. I've even provided links where DEVELOPERS say as much. There are many others. And there are others on top of THAT from developers who've made money with Android.

There are TWO. Let's me say that again, TWO major app stores for android. If you want to hit most users you just need to develop for ONE. (amazon doesn't currently hit ANY devices the android market does not). The other app stores exist to offer paid app content to countries where the Android market can't offer it yet, and that list of countries is shrinking dramatically. Most app developers, if they even bother with those markets, will choose one or two markets to host content on, and that's it. There's not "20 different markets" they have to worry about hitting. That's a fallacy made up by people who don't use android, and parroted by people here who don't know any better.

and Rovio's angry birds port ran like shit because of the ADS. If you downloaded the (ad free) demo, it worked flawlessly on low end devices, or if these devices were rooted and ran an ad-blocker (which I don't support) it also ran well. The problem wasn't their app, it was their shitty implementation of ads. Apps with ads can run great on low end devices with ads enabled, so it wasn't ads causing the problem, just their implementation.

Fragmentation is a minor issue for all but an extreme minority of app-types. The problem is, developers want to port over their hard coded app from iOS and have it run flawlessly. These developers are stupid. the Android team has dozens of tutorials up on how to code around the screen size and OS issues, most of the developers you hear complaining are talking about points already dealt with in these tutorials.

The problem is the money. Android doesn't have an ecosystem like iTunes behind it. They don't have giftcards available everywhere, or a CHEAP non-smartphone device that can access the content (ipod touch) to expand the market past smartphone users. Heck, look at the amazon app store as an example. Developers pretty much universally agree it's SHIT to develop for because updates take weeks to push through, Amazon changes the terms all the time, and it's US only. And yet because of the ECOSYSTEM Amazon has, it's attracted new apps to the Android platform, some of which still have their apps exclusively on the limited market.

Ah! Ok, interesting point about the Ads. You can't separate the Ads from the app. You can't separate out the Ads from the platform. So if Angry Birds works well on only a few Android devices because of the Ads, guess what? That's fragmentation. Why, because for Android, Ads are a required part of the platform, because so few Android users will pay for apps. Remember that they said they went with Ads because they sold so few.

So, if it's the Ads that are causing the problem for some apps, that's because of fragmentation. And that's important because most developers want to make money from their work, and if they can't sell something, then they NEED Ads. And if the apps won't run on most devices because of fragmentation that won't handle the Ad mechanism properly, that's a problem, for all of Android, and for all of the users, because they won't be able to get all the apps they want, as the platform is built around Ads.
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post #170 of 240
9/6/11 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

It's an OPEN source system, how can they sue, it's not like say Java or something that you pay royalties on.

They are claiming, in the lawsuit with Microsoft, that Microsoft showed "highly confidential" Android code to someone Microsoft has working for them on the case. Google claims that this code is proprietary to them. This is the code that's been characterized as being stolen from Linux, and derived from same, which apparently, it was. That code must also be under the GNU 2 license, but Google doesn't care.

Complicated situation.

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011...ous-linux.html

Ya gotta love Google. Not only do they steal from big profit making companies, but they also steal from profit free open software organizations. They are a truly equal opportunity employer. Employer of other's code, that is.
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post #171 of 240
9/6/11 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Ah! Ok, interesting point about the Ads. You can't separate the Ads from the app. You can't separate out the Ads from the platform. So if Angry Birds works well on only a few Android devices because of the Ads, guess what? That's fragmentation. Why, because for Android, Ads are a required part of the platform, because so few Android users will pay for apps. Remember that they said they went with Ads because they sold so few.

So, if it's the Ads that are causing the problem for some apps, that's because of fragmentation. And that's important because most developers want to make money from their work, and if they can't sell something, then they NEED Ads. And if the apps won't run on most devices because of fragmentation that won't handle the Ad mechanism properly, that's a problem, for all of Android, and for all of the users, because they won't be able to get all the apps they want, as the platform is built around Ads.

@melgross

I am not trying to engage you in a dialog -- but you keep raising interesting points! Yer' on a roll tonight!

Are you saying Google has difficulty selling ads on Android -- because Android doesn't properly deliver the ads to many devices?

Doesn't Google need the ads even more than the developers?

Shouldn't they fix that?
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #172 of 240
9/6/11 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I don't buy that.

These days, anything complex? Yeah, it's pretty much impossible. Most patents are not findable by those wanting to use the code. So they use the code without knowing it's been invented before, and wait to see if someone comes out of the woodwork. Most of the time, there's no problem, and a license is negotiated. But sometimes, the owner wants too much, or the user doesn't believe the patent is viable, etc.

But most large companies have a way of working this out by listing all of their licensable patents. That way, a company can look through defined groups of patents to see if some are needed.

But there are enough patents that aren't listed, because the company doesn't normally license them. It's very difficult to find patents that are relevant, because many are so technical, that the name the patent is listed under doesn't adequately describe it to someone looking for what it does.

It's becoming more difficult all the time.
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post #173 of 240
9/6/11 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

@melgross

I am not trying to engage you in a dialog -- but you keep raising interesting points! Yer' on a roll tonight!

Are you saying Google has difficulty selling ads on Android -- because Android doesn't properly deliver the ads to many devices?

Doesn't Google need the ads even more than the developers?

Shouldn't they fix that?

With all of this rumored forking, I'm still at a loss for how Google plans to actually make money off of this. If you look at the purchase of Android, Motorola, cost of development AND legal fees thus far, that's gonna take nearly a decade of mobile advertising just to recoup Google's costs.
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2010 mac mini/iPad OG/iPhone 4/appletv OG/appletv 2/ BT trackpad and keyboard/time capsule/ Wii
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post #174 of 240
9/6/11 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

The fragmentation problem for Google is the obvious one...Baidu's fork will essentially kill Android growth in China while doing nothing to iOS and moderate to wp7. It doesn't MATTER to Google if the apps run on Baidu phones if Google is shut out of its Android monetization plans in China. Heaven help Google if this fork gains traction outside of China and into asia proper (unlikely in the extreme).

However, Korean Android or whatever also potentially locks out Google although less likely to. Unless, of course, MS writes someone an appropriately big check.

Amazon's fork, while still using the Google search engine as default, kills a lot of the tie in for other Google services and eyeball count.

So here you are as Google, out millions/billions for Android development and then another $12B for Moto and you STILL don't have your second revenue stream locked down. When is Android going in the black? And if it can't why dump more money down this particular pit as opposed to pulling another Google Wave and "gifting" the code to open source?

What I believe will happen is that companies, and even governments, will look at these extreme forks to see if they work out. I believe the S. Korean government recently said they were looking into making an OS themselves. This could be a problem for interoperability.

Google depends on advertising for 97% of their revenue and profits, according to their financial reports. If Ads don't go back to them, they are in trouble. If this happens in China, what happens in India next? They are also indifferent to other countries companies. Then what? Brazil? Iran? This could get nasty.

I know some people want to shrug this off, but it's not so simple. Android was bought because Google wanted a way to monetize mobile. First the BB. When they saw the iPhone jump up, they decided to copy that instead. Mobile terrifies Google. It has them shivering down their spine. They know it could kill them, or at least shunt them into a backwater of the Internet.

Their big problem is with apps. Their biggest problem is with Apple's apps. I use Google search on my iPhone and iPad far less often than I do on my Mac. I'm willing to bet everyone else does the same. It's all apps. If I need info, I go to the apps that do it best. I don't need Google most of the time. That's a killer! Over 80% of Google's revenue and profit comes from Ads in the sidebars and at the top of the search results in Google search.

If we don't use Google search, then that's 80% of their sales gone down the tube. So it's bad enough that iPhone and other non Android users are abandoning them to a large extent, but this fragmentation, if it cuts out Google's Ads, will be murder. Baidu is likely to put their own Ads agency in charge, and cut Google out of most, if not all of it. That could happen everywhere.

What if it's possible for Samsung and others to figure out a way to remove the Ads seen in Angry Birds, for example, and substitute the ones they sell? If Google can't prevent that, and we don't have the contracts, so we don't know if they could, they are again screwed. And from the small amount of profit these companies are making from selling their phones, you can bet they're looking for ways to make money from them elsewhere. They can have my idea for free if they haven't already thought of it.

It's possible they can even get out of their contracts with Google if they decide not to use "Android" in the name.
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post #175 of 240
9/6/11 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

These days, anything complex? Yeah, it's pretty much impossible. Most patents are not findable by those wanting to use the code. So they use the code without knowing it's been invented before, and wait to see if someone comes out of the woodwork. Most of the time, there's no problem, and a license is negotiated. But sometimes, the owner wants too much, or the user doesn't believe the patent is viable, etc.

But most large companies have a way of working this out by listing all of their licensable patents. That way, a company can look through defined groups of patents to see if some are needed.

But there are enough patents that aren't listed, because the company doesn't normally license them. It's very difficult to find patents that are relevant, because many are so technical, that the name the patent is listed under doesn't adequately describe it to someone looking for what it does.

It's becoming more difficult all the time.

Aren't all US patents listed by the USPTO?

Aren't these searchable with some kind of LexisNexis technology?

If not, this looks/smells like a business opportunity!


I know of two companies, currently engaged in patent litigation, who are also expert in large data store and search technology!


Edit: Hmmm... I just realized something:

Larry Ellison doesn't want to take over Android -- he wants to take over Google!
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
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post #176 of 240
9/6/11 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Mel, on what do you base the claim that Android users don't download apps? No doubt that iOS users have downloaded the most apps per user, particularly since they've been doing so longer than those with android devices, and had the larger market share until sometime last year. But "not as many" isn't the same as not being big app users.

Go to the business sites. Computerworld, eWeek, Infoworld, InformationWeek. These are all sites that deal mostly with the business end of the computing and telecommunications industries. They had plenty of articles that used surveys of large numbers of people that show that Android users, in general, use many less apps than do iOS users, and they tend to center around a much smaller group of what they do use, mostly social networking apps.

It's also why more than 60% of the apps in Apple's store are paid, while, I think the number is closer to 25% in the Android Market. It's also harder to find apps in the Android Market than in the App Store, though it's been getting better.

I meant to post this earlier in a post about fragmentation, but it works here to as it's a reason.

http://www.androidauthority.com/htc-...-phones-23623/
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post #177 of 240
9/6/11 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Go to the business sites. Computerworld, eWeek, Infoworld, InformationWeek. These are all sites that deal mostly with the business end of the computing and telecommunications industries. They had plenty of articles that used surveys of large numbers of people that show that Android users, in general, use many less apps than do iOS users, and they tend to center around a much smaller group of what they do use, mostly social networking apps.

It's also why more than 60% of the apps in Apple's store are paid, while, I think the number is closer to 25% in the Android Market. It's also harder to find apps in the Android Market than in the App Store, though it's been getting better.

I meant to post this earlier in a post about fragmentation, but it works here to as it's a reason.

http://www.androidauthority.com/htc-...-phones-23623/

The most recent survey I find indicated that Android owners actually have quite a number of apps, an average of 35 per user several months ago, likely higher now. Not so different from iOS, and in line with my earlier guess that iOS leads the way but Android isn't far behind. Android owners also use their apps just about as much as iOS owners.
http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...pp-downloaders

I imagine you've actually used the Android Market to see how the process of locating apps works, but for those that haven't:
https://market.android.com

I don't know what it is that your find harder than to use than Apple's Appstore. Any details on how the Apple store is easier to navigate than Google's Android Market in your view?

EDIT: BTW, thanks for the AndroidAuthority link to Android smartphone versions. Hadn't seen that one yet.

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"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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melior diabolus quem scies

"No theatrics and no more personal attacks, just stick to the logic and tell me why I don't have any argument ~ Jragosta/2012

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post #178 of 240
9/6/11 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

This is an excellent point. Even though the iPad had the advantages of being first to market and a year lead time without meaningful competition, Apple did not court or sell to the enterprise/IT community.

Yet, enterprise has adopted iPads almost exclusively. Every week or so you read a story where this or that organization is deploying large multiples of iPads to implement a specific solution. I can't recall any such deployments of competitive tablets.

Certainly, you would think that Android would have appeal to IT and organizational developers (install base, several hardware alternatives, [relatively] open source, etc.) But, it appears that just the opposite has happened -- they have been turned off by lack of standardization, lack of a complete [implementation of a] hardware/softare package, ease of hacking, susceptibility to viruses, lack of security, etc.

The very things about android, that appeal to the techie consumers -- are a turnoff for enterprise/IT.

It becomes a very easy business decision: The iPad gives us [most] everything we need [with very little downside] at an excellent price -- Why waste time [and opportunity] looking at anything else?

Indeed!


So far, and it could change, Android is considered to be the mobile platform most affected by malware, a direct consequence of Google's intentions for Android and how they want to handle it, and the least secure.

Until those problems are taken care of, it's doubtful that Android will move into most major businesses in a big way.

And companies like to write once, use everywhere, despite some who say that writing five or more versions is easy to do. It may be easy, but it costs money to do so, and that's a major disadvantage. The more complex the app, the more it costs for different versions, and the longer it takes.
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post #179 of 240
9/6/11 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

So far, and it could change, Android is considered to be the mobile platform most affected by malware, a direct consequence of Google's intentions for Android and how they want to handle it, and the least secure.

Until those problems are taken care of, it's doubtful that Android will move into most major businesses in a big way.

And companies like to write once, use everywhere, despite some who say that writing five or more versions is easy to do. It may be easy, but it costs money to do so, and that's a major disadvantage. The more complex the app, the more it costs for different versions, and the longer it takes.

I would think that sideloading of non-approved apps would be a drawback as well.
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post #180 of 240
9/6/11 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Realistically IMO the Android Market didn't open shop until March of '09 when the first paid apps became available. Prior to that the few apps that the Market offered were simple and/or direct from Google themselves. On the market share side, until the original Droid was released in October/2009, Android phones were just an afterthought with no real market presence at all. That puts the Android push just two years old, tho technically there were Android phones and a limited Android Market before then.

But really that's doesn't affect Mels' claim that as a rule Android users use their smartphones as a phone and browser while Apple users would actually use apps, downloading many times more than their typical Android counterparts. I disagree with his assessment.

You just have to look at the number of phones sold over some period, and look at the number of downloads. Apple has claimed over 15 billion several months ago. It's possibly close to 20 billion by now. Then get the number from the Android Market, and if it makes you feel better, add another 30% to account for the other stores around. Divide the number of apps downloaded by the number of phones sold, and you've got your answer.I just don't remember the number of Android apps downloaded, though the numbers are out there. Be careful to not use some guys estimates, but an official number.

It's like the number of apps out there. We know exactly how many iOs apps there are, because the store has some mechanism sites use to get the latest apps as soon as they get to the store. I use one site called appshopper. I'm not endorsing that site, and there are others, but it was the first I'd seen, and it's pretty good so I stick with it. It's also a great way of discovering new and updated apps.

We were reading, at the beginning of the summer, that there were 275,000 apps in the Android Marketplace vs. 300,000 in the AppStore and that by august, there would be more than in the App Store. Heh! Not so. In fact, there were far less in the AM and more in the AS.

Estimates for the AM vary considerably. Here's one from an Android centric site recently:

http://www.androidauthority.com/andr...st-have-23691/

So, is this true? If so, it's a lot less than some others are reporting.

Ok, I found the number of Android apps downloaded in total. The number keeps updating, but it's not a realtime update, just an estimate of how many apps are downloaded per second. It's also not official.

http://www.androlib.com/appstats.aspx

Still, it's about 6 billion. Now you can find the number of Android phones out there in total. But I'm not sure exactly what this is counting, it could be more than just the AM.
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post #181 of 240
9/6/11 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Are you proposing that Google made up the whole Chinese Gov't hacking of dissident email accounts simply to giove them cover for giving up on a failed China strategy? The hacking of US Government and Fortune 500 companies another fairy-tale that Google made up about the Chinese government? Surely your head isn't buried that far in the sand Mel.

You may want to believe everything about Google is evil, but at least give them props when they do the right thing.

No, I'm saying that it's very possible they used it as an excuse to leave. Baidu was kicking their asses in China. It would be embarrassing to leave because they were losing money. But to leave for reasons of freedom, well, what could be better publicity elsewhere? As they say, priceless!
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post #182 of 240
9/6/11 at 5:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

I would think that sideloading of non-approved apps would be a drawback as well.

That requires the user changing the default setting that only allows Android Market apps to be installed.

As for Android the OS being inherently more insecure than iOS, that's not really true IMHO. Android's issue is the Android Market rather than Android itself. Without a curated market like Apple's, the chances of malware sneaking into the Android market are much higher, tho still not a common occurance and little cause for worry in my view, at least so far. Used more as FUD than a current concern for all Android users. Google will need to make changes, sooner rather than later, to keep app malware issues rare. With so many devices it's an attractive target. Apple's idea of running on lockdown may have to be considered one day.

Both OS's are considered more secure than desktop versions, but both can still be hacked and are susceptible to several types of attack. In fact iOS encryption is considered particularly weak, with passwords easily broken, while Android's dependence on the user making the correct decision on app permissions is probably not as good an idea as Apple's choice to, well, not allow those choices. The syncing process it viewed as a particular concern and a weak link in the security chain on both platforms. fortunately syncing is rarely needed on Android devices, and upcoming iOS versions should reduce the need as well.

ITWorld had a brief but informative article on the two platforms here:
http://www.itworld.com/security/1783...ore-secure-pcs

Reports of Android security issues are way overblown in my opinion, and sometimes imagined.

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post #183 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

@melgross

I am not trying to engage you in a dialog -- but you keep raising interesting points! Yer' on a roll tonight!

Are you saying Google has difficulty selling ads on Android -- because Android doesn't properly deliver the ads to many devices?

Doesn't Google need the ads even more than the developers?

Shouldn't they fix that?

Engage!

Yes, yes, and yes!

The problem, as I see it, is that the well known problem of convincing people to buy apps is forcing developers to make a decision. Either to develop for Android, and lose money, or take advertising. I believe that Google is selling Ads without a problem. But the real problem is that if many apps with Ads won't run on many devices, then Google won't be getting the revenue it wants, and needs. Neither will the developers.

So, somehow, Google has to figure out how to do this so that it runs across most phones, and most OS upgrades. Sure, they need to figure this out, but can they?

This is a problem of their own making. Is it fixable? Good question! If the "skins" are causing problems, if the different SoC's are causing problems, then I don't know what they can do. Supposedly, they are trying to limit what OEMs can do to future releases. But can they? I've read articles that say that Google's contracts limit what can be done only in using Android name, receiving help from Google, and getting OS upgrades early. If an OEM decides to forgo this, they can go their own way, possibly. If so, there's nothing Google can do.

Google also wants information from us, and they get it from their own apps, and possibly third party apps as well.
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post #184 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No, I'm saying that it's very possible they used it as an excuse to leave. Baidu was kicking their asses in China. It would be embarrassing to leave because they were losing money. But to leave for reasons of freedom, well, what could be better publicity elsewhere? As they say, priceless!

Gosh, I guess it is possible. What isn't?

Perhaps Apple is secretly paying Baidu to fork Android. Or Google and Apple are actually working together behind the scenes to take over the world's information systems. Or you being a clever Google plant, working your way into a position of trust with other AI members, waiting for just the right moment to turn.

So is your Google/China idea a likelihood in your opinion, or just some FUD you thought of that can't be disproved, and thus must be considered.

melior diabolus quem scies

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post #185 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Aren't all US patents listed by the USPTO?

Aren't these searchable with some kind of LexisNexis technology?

If not, this looks/smells like a business opportunity!


I know of two companies, currently engaged in patent litigation, who are also expert in large data store and search technology!


Edit: Hmmm... I just realized something:

Larry Ellison doesn't want to take over Android -- he wants to take over Google!

Have you ever tried to look up some obscure bit of technology in any of this, hoping to find a patent that has it? I have. Brrr! While you might find something, you might not find exactly what you need. You might not find anything. The indexing is not the greatest, and neither is the search. Honestly, it's almost impossible. Some patents go on for hundreds of pages, and you may need the images. That's why one hires experts to do this, and they likely will still miss things.
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post #186 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

The most recent survey I find indicated that Android owners actually have quite a number of apps, an average of 35 per user several months ago, likely higher now. Not so different from iOS, and in line with my earlier guess that iOS leads the way but Android isn't far behind. Android owners also use their apps just about as much as iOS owners.
http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...pp-downloaders

I imagine you've actually used the Android Market to see how the process of locating apps works, but for those that haven't:
https://market.android.com

I don't know what it is that your find harder than to use than Apple's Appstore. Any details on how the Apple store is easier to navigate than Google's Android Market in your view?

EDIT: BTW, thanks for the AndroidAuthority link to Android smartphone versions. Hadn't seen that one yet.

As we've both used them, you know, since you asked, that it's hard to pin down exactly why. But it just is. As I said, it's gotten better in the AM, since their big upgrade of the site. It's still, I don't know exactly, less definitive? It's one of those thongs where you have to have been there, hard to explain.

The last estimate I saw of iPhone apps, several months ago was 60 apps per iPhone. It's likely higher now.
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post #187 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:12pm
[QUOTE=melgross;1936697]You just have to look at the number of phones sold over some period, and look at the number of downloads. Apple has claimed over 15 billion several months ago. It's possibly close to 20 billion by now. Then get the number from the Android Market, and if it makes you feel better, add another 30% to account for the other stores around. Divide the number of apps downloaded by the number of phones sold, and you've got your answer.I just don't remember the number of Android apps downloaded, though the numbers are out there. Be careful to not use some guys estimates, but an official number./QUOTE]

Why are you attempting to make the numbers so difficult? Is there something about the Nielsen survey results I linked that bothers you? I thought it was pretty straightforward, perhaps the reason you're attempting to make things look muddy?

http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...pp-downloaders

i

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post #188 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The last estimate I saw of iPhone apps, several months ago was 60 apps per iPhone. It's likely higher now.

Missed that one. Link?

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post #189 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by freckledbruh View Post

I would think that sideloading of non-approved apps would be a drawback as well.

Yes. It's why people are told that jail breaking iOS can lead to the same security and malware problems that Android suffers from.
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post #190 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Of all Android devices to access Google's App Market over the past two weeks, half are still running last summer's Android 2.2 Froyo and only 30 percent are using Google's latest smartphone release, Android 2.3 Gingerbread. More than 16 percent are running a build older than Froyo, preventing them from being able to run modern apps.



Google's latest tablet-centric release, Android 3.0 Honeycomb, powers less than 2 percent of active devices, but it isn't used by a variety of tablet makers including Barnes & Noble Nook Color and Amazon's upcoming


Parts like this make me laugh.

"Baidu forks Android to introduce its own mobile OS for China". Okay....

So what does that have to do with Android versions? Nothing at all.

"More than 16% are running a build older than Froyo". Well that's to be expected. More than 16% of current iphones are older than the 3GS. This also prevents them from having a functioning phone since Apple decided to push out an iOS version that they knew those older phones couldn't handle.

As far as running apps, that has nothing to do with the Android version. Let's say you want an app that needs the API to access your front facing camera. Well, if you have an Android with a front facing camera, guess what. It already has a version with APIs that deep. If you don't have a front facing camera, then it doesn't really matter anyway does it? Because you do not require that version of android. Your older version of Android is completely capable of running a vast majority of apps. Have a super old Android? There's a gingerbread rom available for it because each phone has it's own unique dev community. This fragmentation thing is completely over exaggerated in every way.


"Google's latest tablet-centric release..." STOPPED READING THERE. Was the article about tablets? No? Then why mention it? What does the nook color have to do with anything? Of course it's less than 2%, because there's an insane amount of android PHONES out there. With PHONE OSs.

Even the author of this article felt that it was necessary to just squeeze that little section in at the end.

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post #191 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Missed that one. Link?

This one backs up Melgross' statement but it 9 months old. I'd think the average would have increased in that time, not decreased.
http://www.asymco.com/2011/01/16/mor...s-device-sold/
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post #192 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This one backs up Melgross' statement but it 9 months old. I'd think the average would have increased in that time, not decreased.
http://www.asymco.com/2011/01/16/mor...s-device-sold/

Which is different than the average number of apps that users have currently installed on their phones. The Asymco link might imply there's quite a high number of apps that iOS owners had downloaded and subsequently found not worth keeping.

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melior diabolus quem scies

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post #193 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Which is different than the average number of apps that users have currently installed on their phones. The Asymco link might imply there's quite a high number of apps that iOS owners had downloaded and subsequently found not worth keeping.

Regardless if people still use the app or not isn't what's being measured. I certainly only use a handful of the hundreds of apps I've bought on regular basis. Most recently I bought Skeleton System Pro II (NOVA Series) when it was half-off. Great app, BTW. I'll probably only use once every couple weeks, but that doesn't mean it's a crappy app.
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post #194 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

That requires the user changing the default setting that only allows Android Market apps to be installed.

As for Android the OS being inherently more insecure than iOS, that's not really true IMHO. Android's issue is the Android Market rather than Android itself. Without a curated market like Apple's, the chances of malware sneaking into the Android market are much higher, tho still not a common occurance and little cause for worry in my view, at least so far. Used more as FUD than a current concern for all Android users. Google will need to make changes, sooner rather than later, to keep app malware issues rare. With so many devices it's an attractive target. Apple's idea of running on lockdown may have to be considered one day.

Both OS's are considered more secure than desktop versions, but both can still be hacked and are susceptible to several types of attack. In fact iOS encryption is considered particularly weak, with passwords easily broken, while Android's dependence on the user making the correct decision on app permissions is probably not as good an idea as Apple's choice to, well, not allow those choices. The syncing process it viewed as a particular concern and a weak link in the security chain on both platforms. fortunately syncing is rarely needed on Android devices, and upcoming iOS versions should reduce the need as well.

ITWorld had a brief but informative article on the two platforms here:
http://www.itworld.com/security/1783...ore-secure-pcs

Reports of Android security issues are way overblown in my opinion, and sometimes imagined.

The problem with Android security is that attacks are increasing. At some point, hundreds of thousands will be affected, and that will be very bad publicity.

Google MUST step up. I don't think they want to because of liability, and the large cost. It's estimated that it can cost Apple $50 million a year. Google's plans are for Android to be as low a cost to them as possible, because most of their money comes from Android app advertising, and from Google search.

The liability issues are interesting. How do they decide if something is malware? apple can get by refusing apps for many reasons. But if Google refuses them just for malware, the developer can sue them.

In addition, Apple filters apps so they don't have apps that violate user/carrier contracts, such as free tethering apps. Getting around contracts is one reason some people go with Android rather than iOS. Right now, Google can say that they have no real control over what appears on the AM. But if they look at all apps first, they won't be able to say that. Would they need to disallow apps that violate contracts, copyrights, patents, trademarks, etc.? If so, they will anger many Android users.

They are between a rock and a hard place.
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post #195 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Have you ever tried to look up some obscure bit of technology in any of this, hoping to find a patent that has it? I have. Brrr! While you might find something, you might not find exactly what you need. You might not find anything. The indexing is not the greatest, and neither is the search. Honestly, it's almost impossible. Some patents go on for hundreds of pages, and you may need the images. That's why one hires experts to do this, and they likely will still miss things.

My old eyes go back to the days of [analog] microfilm and then microfiche -- IBM had their entire technical knowledge base on it: source code, hardware diagrams, docs. etc.

Those were the days of KWIC indexes (Key Words In Context) -- I usually could find whatever I needed.

Fast forward 50 years where everything is digital: program-scanable, indexable, searchable -- why can't we search patents by keywords and in-context phrases extracted and weighted from the content -- translated from legalese into english.

Isn't that what Google does with totally random information, across multiple disciplines and multiple languages?


As an aside: One of the jewels of Final Cut Pro X is a fantastic data management facility -- based on:

1) Content Metadata
2) The actual content itself
3) Content analysis (people, video/sound/quality and problems, color, shot range (closeup, wide...)
4) User supplied keywords
5) smart collections

Everything is searchable -- with simple or complex searches.

Basically, the computer does the heavy lifting -- does the analysis and creates most of the "searchable data".

A user can sit watching a video clip and assign [user defined] keywords while watching the video;

My God, these are random video clips we are talking about!

Why couldn't those same technologies be used to classify patents (or any other content) into a reliably searchable data store?
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post #196 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Gosh, I guess it is possible. What isn't?

Perhaps Apple is secretly paying Baidu to fork Android. Or Google and Apple are actually working together behind the scenes to take over the world's information systems. Or you being a clever Google plant, working your way into a position of trust with other AI members, waiting for just the right moment to turn.

So is your Google/China idea a likelihood in your opinion, or just some FUD you thought of that can't be disproved, and thus must be considered.

No, it's been brought up in some business publications when it happened. It's not really so difficult to believe. Stranger things have happened. We know they were doing poorly in China, their own financial reports said that. The Chinese are very patriotic in their own way. While Apple has caché there, Google doesn't, because of its stances. Baidu was growing at phenomenal rates.

And with Google's silly "Do No evil." Slogan, what else would they need to pull out.

It's not as odd an idea as you want to think.
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post #197 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Regardless if people still use the app or not isn't what's being measured. I certainly only use a handful of the hundreds of apps I've bought on regular basis.

Of course it's what's being measured.

Mel's claim was that Android owners don't really use apps (see post #153), instead seeing their smartphones as phones and browsers. I gave evidence that wasn't true. What did you think was being discussed?

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post #198 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:43pm
[QUOTE=Gatorguy;1936719]
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You just have to look at the number of phones sold over some period, and look at the number of downloads. Apple has claimed over 15 billion several months ago. It's possibly close to 20 billion by now. Then get the number from the Android Market, and if it makes you feel better, add another 30% to account for the other stores around. Divide the number of apps downloaded by the number of phones sold, and you've got your answer.I just don't remember the number of Android apps downloaded, though the numbers are out there. Be careful to not use some guys estimates, but an official number./QUOTE]

Why are you attempting to make the numbers so difficult? Is there something about the Nielsen survey results I linked that bothers you? I thought it was pretty straightforward, perhaps the reason you're attempting to make things look muddy?

http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...pp-downloaders

i

Because surveys aren't always useful. Going by the real, known numbers tells us more. You don't have to of course. Nielsen has had its own scandals in the past. I rather use real numbers if possible.
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post #199 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No, it's been brought up in some business publications when it happened. It's not really so difficult to believe. Stranger things have happened. We know they were doing poorly in China, their own financial reports said that. The Chinese are very patriotic in their own way. While Apple has caché there, Google doesn't, because of its stances. Baidu was growing at phenomenal rates.

And with Google's silly "Do No evil." Slogan, what else would they need to pull out.

It's not as odd an idea as you want to think.

So they created an international incident to cover for poor results. . .
Strange Mel, very strange if you truly believe that's a realistic scenario

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post #200 of 240
9/6/11 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Missed that one. Link?

I remember reading the number, but not where I read it. Of course, if you use me in a survey, I'll bollux up the results. I have over 200 apps on my phone, and over 300 on my iPad.
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