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Dead Man Walking: The President Obama won't be reelected thread. - Page 20

post #761 of 886

The real US President is the Fed Reserve and its cadre of financial institution overlords. If anyone still thinks Democrat vs Republican or Obama vs Romney even means anything now, you are sorely, sorely mistaken.

 

The US President no longer runs the country, and he hasn't for many, many years now.

 

I've looked at the "real wage" charts as well, and it is not pretty at all, not pretty at all.

 

The generation of those younger than me, in the US, like I notice in Malaysia (as a microcosm of eroding youth education and wages), is in serious, serious shit.

 

Spain and Greece ~ 50% youth unemployment. Fucked. For. Life.

post #762 of 886

The Illuminati and Freemasons ain't got nothin' on Wall Street.

 

And Wall Street ain't got nothin' on China.

 

US citizens protesting against Chinese companies paying Chinese workers low wages? In 50 years Chinese citizens will be protesting against Chinese companies paying US workers low wages. Tell me this is not a possible scenario.

 

It's like that Soviet Russia joke.

 

In 2060, China goods buy ~You~


Edited by nvidia2008 - 5/24/12 at 7:04am
post #763 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yup, the countries where patients don't have to file for medical bankruptcy totally have this whole healthcare thing wrong.

 

It is great to have a system where medical bills are shared and personal bankruptcies are avoided.

 

However, here in Single Payer Land, I live in the country's most populous province and about a million of my fellow citizens cant even find a family doctor.

 

You see, training, licensing and paying doctors is expensive. So when you turn your medical system over to the government, bureaucrats at the Health ministry decide how many doctors will be trained and accepted each year. With the usual, predictable kind of accuracy that bureaucrats have for these things.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #764 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

The real US President is the Fed Reserve and its cadre of financial institution overlords. If anyone still thinks Democrat vs Republican or Obama vs Romney even means anything now, you are sorely, sorely mistaken.

 

The US President no longer runs the country, and he hasn't for many, many years now.

 

I've looked at the "real wage" charts as well, and it is not pretty at all, not pretty at all.

 

The generation of those younger than me, in the US, like I notice in Malaysia (as a microcosm of eroding youth education and wages), is in serious, serious shit.

 

Spain and Greece ~ 50% youth unemployment. Fucked. For. Life.

 

I disagree with the Fed comments.  The Presidential election matters greatly.  There are major differences between the two men.  Romney may not be exactly what you want (he's not exactly what I want, either), but he is hands down a better option than Obama.  We've got to do what we can do, not take our marbles and go home because no one who can win is promising more radical monetary and fiscal changes.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #765 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

 

It is great to have a system where medical bills are shared and personal bankruptcies are avoided.

 

However, here in Single Payer Land, I live in the country's most populous province and about a million of my fellow citizens cant even find a family doctor.

 

You see, training, licensing and paying doctors is expensive. So when you turn your medical system over to the government, bureaucrats at the Health ministry decide how many doctors will be trained and accepted each year. With the usual, predictable kind of accuracy that bureaucrats have for these things.

 

I'll actually go a step further.  I simply don't believe it is the government's responsibility to provide us with healthcare.  It's not the government's job to make sure you have a "livable" wage, either.  Granted, we shouldn't let people die in the streets...so we should have emergency care, shelters, clothing and food banks, etc. But the rest is our job, not the government's.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #766 of 886
Stop pretending that we are not the government.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #767 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Stop pretending that we are not the government.

 

Stop pretending that we are.

 

Furthermore, stop pretending that government and society are the same things...and the without government there would or could not be any society...and that without government there would or could not be any civil order.

 

The government and the people are different things. This is so obvious that your denial of it can only demonstrate a blindness or ignorance of some kind whether willful or unintended.

 

It is true that there is a relationship between the government and the people. But this is not the same as saying they are the same thing. For example this is something the government does to the people. And here's another.

 

I have no doubt that you and your liberal/"progressive"/leftist/socialist/Marxist friends in Washington, et al, view "the people" as a "part" of the government (i.e., property of the government). But this is just not so.


Edited by MJ1970 - 5/24/12 at 3:40pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #768 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

 

It is great to have a system where medical bills are shared and personal bankruptcies are avoided.

 

However, here in Single Payer Land, I live in the country's most populous province and about a million of my fellow citizens cant even find a family doctor.

 

You see, training, licensing and paying doctors is expensive. So when you turn your medical system over to the government, bureaucrats at the Health ministry decide how many doctors will be trained and accepted each year. With the usual, predictable kind of accuracy that bureaucrats have for these things.

 

It is quite disturbing how the medical system, private or public, has fallen apart in the UK, US and Canada. Here in Australia's 4th largest city, ie. "backwater of the world", I was able to go to a public medical centre and get a Tetanus shot, in and out within 3 hours for just the price of a good meal after government rebate, etc. Note that "backwater" is not necessarily a good thing in this case because regional areas in the UK, US and Canada can suffer serious medical service challenges.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

I disagree with the Fed comments.  The Presidential election matters greatly.  There are major differences between the two men.  Romney may not be exactly what you want (he's not exactly what I want, either), but he is hands down a better option than Obama.  We've got to do what we can do, not take our marbles and go home because no one who can win is promising more radical monetary and fiscal changes.  

 

This is where I feel the wool has been pulled over your eyes. The role and power of the Executive Branch is very, very finite. Wall Street, the Fed, Lower and Upper Houses, China, Japan and Europe have an unbelievable strangehold on the cajones of American citizens.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Stop pretending that we are.

 

Furthermore, stop pretending that government and society are the same things...and the without government there would or could not be any society...and that without government there would or could not be any civil order.

 

The government and the people are different things. This is so obvious that your denial of it can only demonstrate a blindness or ignorance of some kind whether willful or unintended.

 

It is true that there is a relationship between the government and the people. But this is not the same as saying they are the same thing. For example this is something the government does to the people. And here's another.

 

I have no doubt that you and your liberal/"progressive"/leftist/socialist/Marxist friends in Washington, et al, view "the people" as a "part" of the government (i.e., property of the government). But this is just not so.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, "liberal"/"conservative" is only an illusion dangled in front of you hypnotically so as to cloud you from the real "government" of the USA, ie. the Fed, Wall Street, China and Europe. To believe that right-left liberal-conservative still exists in terms of feeding and clothing ourselves in this ~century~, is simply a mental illness.

post #769 of 886

nvidia:

 

 

 

Quote:
This is where I feel the wool has been pulled over your eyes. The role and power of the Executive Branch is very, very finite. Wall Street, the Fed, Lower and Upper Houses, China, Japan and Europe have an unbelievable strangehold on the cajones of American citizens.

 

I am not denying those institutions and nations hold enormous power.  I am merely saying that the election matters, and for a whole host of reasons.  For one thing, our economy is based on confidence and sentiment.  Romney will provide much more investor and consumer confidence through his policies and rhetoric, which will be be helpful.  Romney will at least get us on the path to some kind fiscal sanity, even if it's not the exact change many of us want.  Romney will represent America with far more dignity and generate far more respect around the world.  These things are important, even considering the role of the Fed, China, etc.  


Edited by SDW2001 - 5/26/12 at 5:57pm
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #770 of 886

Vote for Romney and let us see what happens to your future and your career.
 

post #771 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Vote for Obama and let us see what happens to your future and your career.
 

 

There.  Fixed That For You. 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #772 of 886
The outcome will be the same, SDW.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #773 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

BR:

 

Originally Posted by BR View Post



 

 

Quote:
You gave a long string of arguments leading to a creation of demand, which you then say in turn creates jobs.  Do you not follow your own logic?  Now, you may say that demand should be somehow created via supply side (voodoo) economics, but don't try to claim that demand doesn't create jobs.  

 

Oh boy.  Are you actually now claiming that the full context of your claim wasn't directly stimulating demand creates jobs?  This is the distraction and partisan nonsense you engage in.  You'd much rather play semantics than discuss the actual issue.  

 

 

Quote:
Dissect that sentence.  You said lowering taxes serves as the impetus to increase supply, reducing prices, increasing demand, and finally creating jobs.  In your very own links of your chain of reasoning (which I contest are very weak), you say that the higher demand will create jobs.

 

You can deride my reasoning all you want.  Supply Side works.  It's not what I "say," it's what's been proven.  There really is no way around that for you.  

 

 

 

 

Quote:
So let me get this straight.  In your world, someone lowers taxes.  You, the businessman, say, "Great, now that I have all this extra money, I should make more goods.  Gee, now that I've made more goods, I better lower these prices so people buy them.  Yay, people bought them because they were now cheap enough!"

 

In my world, I understand the laws of supply and demand.  Apparently you live in a different world. 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Are you really claiming that our current job woes are a result of companies not having enough money to make enough supply to lower prices sufficiently to create enough demand so that they can hire more people?  Really?

 

No.  But nice strawman.  

 

 

 

Quote:
And still, you fail to see that the two links in the chain that are adjacent--demand and jobs--don't need all of that voodoo supply side nonsense preceding it.  If aggregate demand were to increase because middle and lower classes had more of a disposable income, wouldn't companies see that and hire more people to increase production to meet the higher demand?  Are you really claiming that companies don't have enough access to capital?

 

Ahh...now we come to it.  How, pray tell, are you going to give the middle and lower classes more disposable income?  That is the real issue. 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

http://business.time.com/2012/05/07/why-arent-there-more-jobs/

 

 

 

 

 

Profits are up.  Many companies are posting record profits.  The pigs at the top won't share it with those who actually create the products and provide the services.  Wages have not kept up with productivity.  Perhaps if they had, there would be enough disposable income for the 99% to keep demand high.

 

 

 

lol.gif  Well that solves it.  Soak the rich.  That's the way to get the economy moving!  

 

 

 

Quote:
 Well that solves it. Soak the rich. That's the way to get the economy moving!

Why not? They've been doing that to everyone else ( read most of the country since they're in the minority ) since the Bush years. Maybe if they'd pay their fair share ( what they expect everyone else to pay ) we'd have more money for everyone else. Yes I know with you black is white and you'll never see that.

 

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #774 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

nvidia:

I am not denying those institutions and nations hold enormous power.  I am merely saying that the election matters, and for a whole host of reasons.  For one thing, our economy is based on confidence and sentiment.  Romney will provide much more investor and consumer confidence through his policies and rhetoric, which will be be helpful.  Romney will at least get us on the path to some kind fiscal sanity, even if it's not the exact change many of us want.  Romney will represent America with far more dignity and generate far more respect around the world.  These things are important, even considering the role of the Fed, China, etc.  

 

Fair enough, that would be reasonable purposes for voting for Romney. But I think there's much more to the picture, as you allude to. I think the election will be important as it will have major global repercussions. I just hope that the election will raise fundamental issues you mentioned, and not deviate into lowest-common-denominator frivolity.

post #775 of 886

Romney will represent America with more dignity?  We're going to be back to having a president who literally believes a god tells him what to do.  

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/20/us/politics/how-the-mormon-church-shaped-mitt-romney.html?pagewanted=all

 

 

 

Quote:
Mr. Romney also prays before taking action on decisions he has already made, asking for divine reassurance, a feeling that he is “united with the powers above,” Dr. Hassell said. Sometimes Mr. Romney would report that even though he had made a decision on the merits, prayer had changed his mind. “Even though rationally this looks like the thing to do, I just have a feeling we shouldn’t do it,” he would say, according to Grant Bennett, another friend and church leader.

 

This should automatically disqualify a candidate from public office.  Romney might as well roll some bones and make an animal sacrifice, seeking a sign he did the right thing.  It's 2000 fucking 12 people.  Can we PLEASE leave this stone age garbage behind us?  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #776 of 886
At prayer breakfast, Obama says Christian faith guides his policies
Quote:
The president also recounted his own path to faith after growing up in a household “that wasn’t particularly religious.” He said he begins each morning with a prayer, and he concluded with a personal anecdote about a day when, while vacationing as president in North Carolina, he made a pilgrimage to a mountaintop retreat to visit the Rev. Billy Graham, who was 91 years old at the time.

Graham prayed for Obama, the president recalled, and then Obama returned the favor.

“I didn’t really know what to say,” Obama said. “What do you pray for when it comes to the man who has prayed for so many? But like that verse in Romans, the Holy Spirit interceded when I didn’t know quite what to say. And so I prayed — briefly, but I prayed from the heart.”

He added: “I have fallen on my knees with great regularity since that moment — asking God for guidance not just in my personal life and my Christian walk, but in the life of this nation and in the values that hold us together and keep us strong.”

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #777 of 886

Y0i2u.jpg

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #778 of 886

I guess the seniors like myself take  a gun and end it all with this statistics you posted about SS.
 

post #779 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I guess the seniors like myself take  a gun and end it all with this statistics you posted about SS.
 

 

No one is proposing to change SS for people currently on SS. It's people like me, 25 years out, that can't count on the ponzi scheme to hold out.

post #780 of 886
Another Obama contradiction that BR willingly overlooks. How convenient.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #781 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

 

No one is proposing to change SS for people currently on SS. It's people like me, 25 years out, that can't count on the ponzi scheme to hold out.

 

The issue is that in a few years alone there won't be any money for people on SS itself. Like I pointed out before, SS is a safety net in as much a pile of banana leaves can cushion your 20-storey fall. In just a few years all SS funding will add to the 15Trillion USD deficit, blowing the deficit out in a way that will make Bush's deficit seem "excellent".


Edited by nvidia2008 - 5/29/12 at 7:11am
post #782 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Another Obama contradiction that BR willingly overlooks. How convenient.

 

Hmm... I think in this case Obama says personally what he believes in, but also says this is not appropriate for solely driving policy in a democracy. Yes, if God tells me I shouldn't kill people, then I would rather not. But that doesn't mean I make a law tomorrow, don't kill people. The law is made because we generally, on the whole, in a democracy, come to an agreement, that killing people is generally not cool. Because God may tell me, kill terrorists and Muslims. God may tell someone else, kill Christians. So, you see, general agreements on laws shouldn't be based on what God tells you.

 

Personally, God/Goddess tells me in my personal role I will rarely be directly involved in killing someone, but if needed for self-defence, protection of my family, then I can do so. However whatever happens if that does happen, the court of law I face (hopefully, who knows in 50 years, and depending what country I am in) will be a secular one, because of the separation of church and state. I can say God/Goddess told me it was OK, but as a democratic person in a democratic country, I have to face what the ~secular~ law has decided, not whether a Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, New Age, Born-Again or whatever says what's right and what's wrong.

 

In Muslim countries, this is a massive issue because there are two courts of law in the best case scenario... Syariah, and secular. For example, in Malaysia, only Muslims can be tried in Syariah courts, not non-Muslims. Not so clear-cut here because some cases, eg. rape, can be tried in Syariah under preferential rules towards one party in which the rapist may not be tried in a secular court... As is my understanding. Middle East countries... who knows.

 

Suffice to say separation of church and state is generally preferable, when they become mangled together, the consequences are not pleasant. Particularly when the State is the Church is the Government is the Leadership is the Financial Centre of a country. Things usually go bad, as evidenced throughout all of human history.


Edited by nvidia2008 - 5/29/12 at 7:24am
post #783 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

 

Fair enough, that would be reasonable purposes for voting for Romney. But I think there's much more to the picture, as you allude to. I think the election will be important as it will have major global repercussions. I just hope that the election will raise fundamental issues you mentioned, and not deviate into lowest-common-denominator frivolity.

 

I hope so too.  We need a real debate about real issues.  Secondly, if the election comes down to who smoked more weed in high school...Obama will be reelected as the populace will be yet again distracted.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Romney will represent America with more dignity?  We're going to be back to having a president who literally believes a god tells him what to do.  

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/20/us/politics/how-the-mormon-church-shaped-mitt-romney.html?pagewanted=all

 

 

 

 

This should automatically disqualify a candidate from public office.  Romney might as well roll some bones and make an animal sacrifice, seeking a sign he did the right thing.  It's 2000 fucking 12 people.  Can we PLEASE leave this stone age garbage behind us?  

 

Your intellectual dishonesty and hostility to ALL faith knows no bounds.  From your own article (which I'd previously read, FYI).  

 

 

 

Quote:
“Prayer is not a rote thing with him,” said Ann N. Madsen, a Bible scholar and a friend. Rather than requesting a specific outcome, he more often asks for strength, wisdom and courage, according to several people who have prayed with him. “Help us see how to navigate this particular problem,” he often asks, according to Dr. Lewis Hassell, who served with Mr. Romney in church.

 

This, BR, is what you cannot understand.  Most people of faith (and certainly most Christians) do not have God "tell them what to do."  They pray for strength, wisdom, courage, etc.  They don't here some Donald Sutherland voice in their heads saying "Go forth and cut capital gains taxes."   

 

 

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post #784 of 886

And then Romney decides to go against a decision on the merits because the voices in his head told him to change his mind.  I'm fine with idiots praying for strength and whatnot.  I'm not fine with the voices in your head changing your mind, reversing a decision that was made with reason and logic.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #785 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And then Romney decides to go against a decision on the merits because the voices in his head told him to change his mind.  I'm fine with idiots praying for strength and whatnot.  I'm not fine with the voices in your head changing your mind, reversing a decision that was made with reason and logic.

 

I'm fine with idiots believing they are the most intelligent and capable beings in the universe and whatnot.  I'm not fine with those people telling me I'm an idiot because I believe differently.  

 

As for Romney, you've mischaracterized the text again:  

 

 

 

Quote:

Sometimes Mr. Romney would report that even though he had made a decision on the merits, prayer had changed his mind. “Even though rationally this looks like the thing to do, I just have a feeling we shouldn’t do it,” he would say, according to Grant Bennett...

 

 

That's not quite "voices in his head," now is it?  Do you mean to suggest that in making decisions, you never rely on intuition/what feels right?  Furthermore, do you condemn anyone who does?  Some of the greatest business leaders in the world talk of making decisions both based on the logical merits as well as feeling, intuition, etc.  The only difference here is that Romney prays about the decisions.  

 

Really, BR..your hostility towards all faith is as equally stunning as your lack of understanding about what believers actually think and how they behave.  

 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #786 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm fine with idiots praying for strength and whatnot.

 

Are you incapable of refraining from referring to people who believe different things than you do as idiots?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm not fine with the voices in your head changing your mind, reversing a decision that was made with reason and logic.

 

Emphasis on your of course. I mean it's okay for you to listen to the voices in your head to overturn decisions based on reason and logic. lol.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #787 of 886
It's not that they believe something different. It's that they believe an invisible magic sky daddy watches and judges. Iron Age myths should not be taken seriously.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #788 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It's not that they believe something different. It's that they believe an invisible magic sky daddy watches and judges. Iron Age myths should not be taken seriously.

 

Regardless of your pejorative characterizations of the beliefs of those you disagree with, it is abundantly clear you're unable to refrain from calling those who believe different things than you do names like "idiot".

 

Oh well.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #789 of 886
Zombie Jesus (who is also his own father but not but is) loves you so much that if you don't believe in him, you will suffer eternal damnation. Yeah, gotta be an idiot on some level to believe that.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #790 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Zombie Jesus (who is also his own father but not but is) loves you so much that if you don't believe in him, you will suffer eternal damnation. Yeah, gotta be an idiot on some level to believe that.

 

Thanks for continuing to share your characterization and opinion about the beliefs of others.


Edited by MJ1970 - 5/29/12 at 11:41am

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post #791 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Thanks for continuing to share your characterization and opinion about the beliefs of others.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Zombie Jesus (who is also his own father but not but is) loves you so much that if you don't believe in him, you will suffer eternal damnation. Yeah, gotta be an idiot on some level to believe that.

 

I really don't see how you get to claim the intellectual high ground here.  You don't believe in a supreme being of any kind.  You only believe in that which you can experience with one or more of your senses.  I happen to consider that exceptionally narrow-minded and naive. The difference between us, though, is that I rarely if ever attack you for your beliefs, or lack thereof.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #792 of 886

It's narrow minded to not allow delusions and wishful thinking to govern my life?  The only naive one here is the person here is the one who believes in a Santa Claus for grownups.  He knows when you are sleeping.  He knows when you're awake.  He knows when you've been bad or good, but you just have to say "I believe in you, Jesus" and all that bad shit you continually do will be forgiven.  Shit, your version kinda ruins the song.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #793 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It's narrow minded to not allow delusions and wishful thinking to govern my life?  

 

Don't think we don't see what you just did there.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The only naive one here is the person here is the one who believes in a Santa Claus for grownups.  He knows when you are sleeping.  He knows when you're awake.  He knows when you've been bad or good, but you just have to say "I believe in you, Jesus" and all that bad shit you continually do will be forgiven.  Shit, your version kinda ruins the song.  

 

Again thanks for sharing your characterizations and opinions of other people's beliefs.

 

I suppose we could have all sorts of fun with the fairy tales you believe in too.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #794 of 886

It's cute how you think that well established science amounts to fairy tales while you bend your knee to an all powerful invisible father who sacrificed himself to himself (but not really because he magically resurrected himself three days later) so he could forgive you (because what fun would it have been to simply NOT put the tree of knowledge in the garden?  why did there need to be such a tree?) because although he is allegedly omnibenevolent, he still will torture you for eternity if this perfect being who requires nothing doesn't receive your love.  

 

Yes, I'm the one who believes in fairy tales.  You just believe in a 3 headed zombie who killed himself to unlock his own capacity to forgive only those who worship him.  Yeah.  Grow up.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #795 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It's cute how you think that well established science amounts to fairy tales...

 

I was thinking more about your fairy tale imagination about how things like economics work. But, since you mention it...sure...your faith in evolution is another. Your faith that there is no God would be another. Your faith in the goodness of the state is still another.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

...while you bend your knee to an all powerful invisible father who sacrificed himself to himself (but not really because he magically resurrected himself three days later) so he could forgive you (because what fun would it have been to simply NOT put the tree of knowledge in the garden?  why did there need to be such a tree?) because although he is allegedly omnibenevolent, he still will torture you for eternity if this perfect being who requires nothing doesn't receive your love.  

 

Yes, I'm the one who believes in fairy tales.  You just believe in a 3 headed zombie who killed himself to unlock his own capacity to forgive only those who worship him.  Yeah.  Grow up.

 

Again thanks for sharing your characterizations and opinions about other people's beliefs.


Edited by MJ1970 - 5/29/12 at 3:18pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #796 of 886
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I guess the seniors like myself take  a gun and end it all with this statistics you posted about SS.

Actually most of those seniors in the past didn't shoot themselves. They just worked a lot longer and stopped stealing from their grandchildren.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

No one is proposing to change SS for people currently on SS. It's people like me, 25 years out, that can't count on the ponzi scheme to hold out.

Perhaps no one is, but the point is they should be proposing it. It is already running at a deficit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

The issue is that in a few years alone there won't be any money for people on SS itself. Like I pointed out before, SS is a safety net in as much a pile of banana leaves can cushion your 20-storey fall. In just a few years all SS funding will add to the 15Trillion USD deficit, blowing the deficit out in a way that will make Bush's deficit seem "excellent".

It is much worse than that. It has already gone into deficit. It will now "run out of money" in 2025 only the money they claim it has right now are government bonds that the government must redeem with itself by borrowing money to pay back the prior debt. Since very little of the new debt is being bought, the Fed is printing dollars to purchase the bonds. So understand that the U.S. government is repaying a bond to itself by printing money to pay back the old bond with the new bond. Any private entity doing this would be found criminally negligent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And then Romney decides to go against a decision on the merits because the voices in his head told him to change his mind.  I'm fine with idiots praying for strength and whatnot.  I'm not fine with the voices in your head changing your mind, reversing a decision that was made with reason and logic.

Those same voices are what Obama claims guides his own decision making. Why those voices told him to oppose gay marriage and now he has "evolved" to letting the states decide gay marriage. Much more extreme voices are telling him he can be magical and conjure something from nothing by printing and borrowing magic greenbacks year after year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It's narrow minded to not allow delusions and wishful thinking to govern my life?  The only naive one here is the person here is the one who believes in a Santa Claus for grownups.  He knows when you are sleeping.  He knows when you're awake.  He knows when you've been bad or good, but you just have to say "I believe in you, Jesus" and all that bad shit you continually do will be forgiven.  Shit, your version kinda ruins the song.  

 

The only people advocating a Santa Claus for grown ups are liberals who believe Santa Claus government can give us all our wishes and bring about utopia on earth if we just make sure we are on the good intention list instead of being the bad jerk who has to actually make instead of take things in life.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #797 of 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

I was thinking more about your fairy tale imagination about how things like economics work. But, since you mention it...sure...your faith in evolution is another. Your faith that there is no God would be another. Your faith in the goodness of the state is still another.

 

Faith.

 

35ke38.jpg

 

See, there you go again.  Just like the fools who conflate the scientific and vernacular definitions of the word "theory"--here, too, you conflate the religious and secular definitions of the word "faith".  I do not have religious faith--the kind I deride--in any of the above mentioned topics because my beliefs are firmly grounded in reality, supported by evidence.  The faith you think I have would be better described as confidence in the validity of said theories based upon the overwhelming supporting evidence.

 

Furthermore, I don't have faith (vernacular or otherwise) that there is no god.  I am not a gnostic atheist.  I am an agnostic atheist in that I do not believe in a deity nor do I believe such a thing is knowable.  Furthermore, I am an igtheist--there's no point even discussing a god without first adequately defining one in a falsifiable manner.  So, again, you are firmly, soundly, overwhelmingly fucking wrong about everything you said there.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #798 of 886

Nothing wrong with this he is a believer of his religion which is good.
 

post #799 of 886
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

I was thinking more about your fairy tale imagination about how things like economics work. But, since you mention it...sure...your faith in evolution is another. Your faith that there is no God would be another. Your faith in the goodness of the state is still another.

 

Faith.

 

See, there you go again.  Just like the fools who conflate the scientific and vernacular definitions of the word "theory"--here, too, you conflate the religious and secular definitions of the word "faith".  I do not have religious faith--the kind I deride--in any of the above mentioned topics because my beliefs are firmly grounded in reality, supported by evidence.  The faith you think I have would be better described as confidence in the validity of said theories based upon the overwhelming supporting evidence.

 

Furthermore, I don't have faith (vernacular or otherwise) that there is no god.  I am not a gnostic atheist.  I am an agnostic atheist in that I do not believe in a deity nor do I believe such a thing is knowable.  Furthermore, I am an igtheist--there's no point even discussing a god without first adequately defining one in a falsifiable manner.  So, again, you are firmly, soundly, overwhelmingly fucking wrong about everything you said there.

 

So you are claiming economics and also outcomes from government actions are the same as hard science and the basis of your proof for this is the fact that you are a agnostic atheist.

 

Talk about not knowing word definitions.......

 

If you want falsifiability, stop personally attacking people because people and who they are have determination on a hard science. Gravity doesn't stop working because someone is Mormon, or because they are Catholic or anything like that. Instead of operating on a higher ground that you claim science would give you debase it, yourself and the discussion here by continually attacking others when personal attacks prove nothing scientific. Much like how people say they'd believe in God if not for the Christians, in your case it is the agnostic atheist who is turning people off to his claims.

 

That said economics and sociology are in no form or fashion hard science.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #800 of 886
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Zombie Jesus (who is also his own father but not but is) loves you so much that if you don't believe in him, you will suffer eternal damnation. Yeah, gotta be an idiot on some level to believe that.

 

There is a difference between faith and religion. The Jesus thing for example, in the bible, is very confusing, and is very open to interpretation. The most important thing I will say about the Bible is the sayings that are directly recorded as Jesus-said-this is vastly, vastly different from everything else in the Bible. Personally, the stuff Jesus "actually said" is way more kickass than the other stuff, which seems rather sub-par compared to the stuff Jesus said. For example, John The Baptist's sayings are kind of saying "I'm a cool guy that did cool things, then Jesus came along, and he was cool too". Whereas Jesus was just like, "This is what I think, this is what it is, if you like it, great, if you don't, you can kiss my jewish ass".

 

And of course, I have to say, New Testament and Old Testament is like Mac and PC.

 

As for the Resurrection, in the Bible as well, it's quite sketchy. A lot of the accounts were of people who saw "Jesus" but didn't recognise him. If your best friend got hit buy a car and you went to his funeral and you saw him one week later all fine, you'd suspect you'd say, "Hey, wassup bro, I thought you is dead!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_appearances_of_Jesus

 

To me, the "Death" of Jesus is the death of all mankind in our current form. The "Resurrection" is in two forms, one is a standard afterlife concept that we will transition to another existence, either similar to our current or to something totally new. The other "Resurrection" is literally the "born-again", which can happen to anyone after a kind of "awakening". For example, if tomorrow I walk out the door and I see perfect love in every human being, then something profound has happened that I have been "resurrected" from my previous semi-death (i.e. "blind" ie. "unenlightened") state.

 

So obviously I'm in the "hippie-reinterpretive" camp of Jesus Christ as a ~concept~ regardless of whether such a human being existed or not.

 

For atheists and agnostics, I feel it is very important to understand the difference between faith and religion, because I am anti-religion but not anti-faith and pro-spirituality. People like me, are relatively rare. I used to consider myself "New Age" but now lean towards monotheism in a self-discovery sense. That is, the pantheon of Gods and Goddesses are merely symbolic representations of earthly and universal forces we don't understand, but I do believe and have experienced a central "thing" beyond all that but in us all as a spark. I think I'll be a cult leader someday, actually. Seems to be the direction I'm heading in whenever I talk about ~my~ faith. Too cool for orthodox religion school, Too hot for atheists and agnostics.


Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

 

It is much worse than that. It has already gone into deficit. It will now "run out of money" in 2025 only the money they claim it has right now are government bonds that the government must redeem with itself by borrowing money to pay back the prior debt. Since very little of the new debt is being bought, the Fed is printing dollars to purchase the bonds. So understand that the U.S. government is repaying a bond to itself by printing money to pay back the old bond with the new bond. Any private entity doing this would be found criminally negligent.

 

Ah, I see. I just watched "IOUSA" the movie a few days ago. Mind-blowing. At the time it was made just several years ago, the deficit was around 8 Trillion. Now it's almost double that, closing in on 16 Trillion. And when you take into account the fraudulent government behaviour you outline above, something's gotta give. Ponzi scheme is a perfect description, I understand why people use that term and from your explanation as well.

 

That's why I say forget the Illuminati, Aliens, Roswell, even God for a while. Why is 99% of the human population entirely clueless as to how money actually works? Perhaps because of evolutionary understanding of tangible resources including non-fiat currency. Gold for example, is the easiest to comprehend. But fiat currencies, these are totally bollocks stuff. Why do most people not understand, simply, you cannot eat money. If I have a piece of wood, I know 20 years later, if I still have that piece of wood I can make fire so I won't die of cold. But if I have a $100 bill (USD/ Euro/ AUD/ CAD/ etc), there is no guarantee that even tomorrow, I can "buy" a piece of wood. Because someone has to find that wood, cut that wood, sell it to me, take my money, so he can buy another piece of wood. Assuming there are still trees left. The process of money supply is so absurd, it simply defies most human comprehension, much like quantum mechanics. I am blessed to have a mind that can at least get the rough gist of both, but until 5 years ago, my monetary knowledge was abysmal. It was only at the end of 2004 when I was dead broke, maxed out $7000 in credit cards, my parents freaking out, them giving me $3000 each month and I had no idea where it was going, and considering at the start of 2003 I had $20,000 in savings which went by in a flash, even though I had a decent job... I knew something was fishy, and thankfully with some earnest I understand money a lot better now.

 

It is absolutely criminal that most school children learn that gravity causes an apple to fall to the ground but virtually nobody is taught why an apple costs 50cents (or whatever the price is, which is my point exactly).

 

Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I hope so too.  We need a real debate about real issues.  Secondly, if the election comes down to who smoked more weed in high school...Obama will be reelected as the populace will be yet again distracted.  

 

 

Upon reflection, I'm not optimistic on a real debate about real issues. It's not going to be pretty all the way up to voting day, I'm afraid.


Edited by nvidia2008 - 5/30/12 at 6:28am
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