Dead Man Walking: The President Obama won't be reelected thread. - Page 20

The real US President is the Fed Reserve and its cadre of financial institution overlords. If anyone still thinks Democrat vs Republican or Obama vs Romney even means anything now, you are sorely, sorely mistaken.

The US President no longer runs the country, and he hasn't for many, many years now.

I've looked at the "real wage" charts as well, and it is not pretty at all, not pretty at all.

The generation of those younger than me, in the US, like I notice in Malaysia (as a microcosm of eroding youth education and wages), is in serious, serious shit.

Spain and Greece ~ 50% youth unemployment. Fucked. For. Life.

The Illuminati and Freemasons ain't got nothin' on Wall Street.

And Wall Street ain't got nothin' on China.

US citizens protesting against Chinese companies paying Chinese workers low wages? In 50 years Chinese citizens will be protesting against Chinese companies paying US workers low wages. Tell me this is not a possible scenario.

It's like that Soviet Russia joke.

In 2060, China goods buy ~You~

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

Yup, the countries where patients don't have to file for medical bankruptcy totally have this whole healthcare thing wrong.

It is great to have a system where medical bills are shared and personal bankruptcies are avoided.

However, here in Single Payer Land, I live in the country's most populous province and about a million of my fellow citizens cant even find a family doctor.

You see, training, licensing and paying doctors is expensive. So when you turn your medical system over to the government, bureaucrats at the Health ministry decide how many doctors will be trained and accepted each year. With the usual, predictable kind of accuracy that bureaucrats have for these things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nvidia2008 

The real US President is the Fed Reserve and its cadre of financial institution overlords. If anyone still thinks Democrat vs Republican or Obama vs Romney even means anything now, you are sorely, sorely mistaken.

 

The US President no longer runs the country, and he hasn't for many, many years now.

 

I've looked at the "real wage" charts as well, and it is not pretty at all, not pretty at all.

 

The generation of those younger than me, in the US, like I notice in Malaysia (as a microcosm of eroding youth education and wages), is in serious, serious shit.

 

Spain and Greece ~ 50% youth unemployment. Fucked. For. Life.

I disagree with the Fed comments.  The Presidential election matters greatly.  There are major differences between the two men.  Romney may not be exactly what you want (he's not exactly what I want, either), but he is hands down a better option than Obama.  We've got to do what we can do, not take our marbles and go home because no one who can win is promising more radical monetary and fiscal changes.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank777 

 

It is great to have a system where medical bills are shared and personal bankruptcies are avoided.

 

However, here in Single Payer Land, I live in the country's most populous province and about a million of my fellow citizens cant even find a family doctor.

 

You see, training, licensing and paying doctors is expensive. So when you turn your medical system over to the government, bureaucrats at the Health ministry decide how many doctors will be trained and accepted each year. With the usual, predictable kind of accuracy that bureaucrats have for these things.

I'll actually go a step further.  I simply don't believe it is the government's responsibility to provide us with healthcare.  It's not the government's job to make sure you have a "livable" wage, either.  Granted, we shouldn't let people die in the streets...so we should have emergency care, shelters, clothing and food banks, etc. But the rest is our job, not the government's.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

Stop pretending that we are not the government.

Stop pretending that we are.

Furthermore, stop pretending that government and society are the same things...and the without government there would or could not be any society...and that without government there would or could not be any civil order.

The government and the people are different things. This is so obvious that your denial of it can only demonstrate a blindness or ignorance of some kind whether willful or unintended.

It is true that there is a relationship between the government and the people. But this is not the same as saying they are the same thing. For example this is something the government does to the people. And here's another.

I have no doubt that you and your liberal/"progressive"/leftist/socialist/Marxist friends in Washington, et al, view "the people" as a "part" of the government (i.e., property of the government). But this is just not so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank777 

 

It is great to have a system where medical bills are shared and personal bankruptcies are avoided.

 

However, here in Single Payer Land, I live in the country's most populous province and about a million of my fellow citizens cant even find a family doctor.

 

You see, training, licensing and paying doctors is expensive. So when you turn your medical system over to the government, bureaucrats at the Health ministry decide how many doctors will be trained and accepted each year. With the usual, predictable kind of accuracy that bureaucrats have for these things.

It is quite disturbing how the medical system, private or public, has fallen apart in the UK, US and Canada. Here in Australia's 4th largest city, ie. "backwater of the world", I was able to go to a public medical centre and get a Tetanus shot, in and out within 3 hours for just the price of a good meal after government rebate, etc. Note that "backwater" is not necessarily a good thing in this case because regional areas in the UK, US and Canada can suffer serious medical service challenges.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

 

I disagree with the Fed comments.  The Presidential election matters greatly.  There are major differences between the two men.  Romney may not be exactly what you want (he's not exactly what I want, either), but he is hands down a better option than Obama.  We've got to do what we can do, not take our marbles and go home because no one who can win is promising more radical monetary and fiscal changes.  

This is where I feel the wool has been pulled over your eyes. The role and power of the Executive Branch is very, very finite. Wall Street, the Fed, Lower and Upper Houses, China, Japan and Europe have an unbelievable strangehold on the cajones of American citizens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

 

Stop pretending that we are.

 

Furthermore, stop pretending that government and society are the same things...and the without government there would or could not be any society...and that without government there would or could not be any civil order.

 

The government and the people are different things. This is so obvious that your denial of it can only demonstrate a blindness or ignorance of some kind whether willful or unintended.

 

It is true that there is a relationship between the government and the people. But this is not the same as saying they are the same thing. For example this is something the government does to the people. And here's another.

 

I have no doubt that you and your liberal/"progressive"/leftist/socialist/Marxist friends in Washington, et al, view "the people" as a "part" of the government (i.e., property of the government). But this is just not so.

Ladies and gentlemen, "liberal"/"conservative" is only an illusion dangled in front of you hypnotically so as to cloud you from the real "government" of the USA, ie. the Fed, Wall Street, China and Europe. To believe that right-left liberal-conservative still exists in terms of feeding and clothing ourselves in this ~century~, is simply a mental illness.

nvidia:

I am not denying those institutions and nations hold enormous power.  I am merely saying that the election matters, and for a whole host of reasons.  For one thing, our economy is based on confidence and sentiment.  Romney will provide much more investor and consumer confidence through his policies and rhetoric, which will be be helpful.  Romney will at least get us on the path to some kind fiscal sanity, even if it's not the exact change many of us want.  Romney will represent America with far more dignity and generate far more respect around the world.  These things are important, even considering the role of the Fed, China, etc.  

Vote for Romney and let us see what happens to your future and your career.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvfox 

Vote for Obama and let us see what happens to your future and your career.
 

There.  Fixed That For You. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

nvidia:

I am not denying those institutions and nations hold enormous power.  I am merely saying that the election matters, and for a whole host of reasons.  For one thing, our economy is based on confidence and sentiment.  Romney will provide much more investor and consumer confidence through his policies and rhetoric, which will be be helpful.  Romney will at least get us on the path to some kind fiscal sanity, even if it's not the exact change many of us want.  Romney will represent America with far more dignity and generate far more respect around the world.  These things are important, even considering the role of the Fed, China, etc.  

Fair enough, that would be reasonable purposes for voting for Romney. But I think there's much more to the picture, as you allude to. I think the election will be important as it will have major global repercussions. I just hope that the election will raise fundamental issues you mentioned, and not deviate into lowest-common-denominator frivolity.

Romney will represent America with more dignity?  We're going to be back to having a president who literally believes a god tells him what to do.  

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/20/us/politics/how-the-mormon-church-shaped-mitt-romney.html?pagewanted=all

This should automatically disqualify a candidate from public office.  Romney might as well roll some bones and make an animal sacrifice, seeking a sign he did the right thing.  It's 2000 fucking 12 people.  Can we PLEASE leave this stone age garbage behind us?  

I guess the seniors like myself take  a gun and end it all with this statistics you posted about SS.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvfox 

I guess the seniors like myself take  a gun and end it all with this statistics you posted about SS.
 

No one is proposing to change SS for people currently on SS. It's people like me, 25 years out, that can't count on the ponzi scheme to hold out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FloorJack 

 

No one is proposing to change SS for people currently on SS. It's people like me, 25 years out, that can't count on the ponzi scheme to hold out.

The issue is that in a few years alone there won't be any money for people on SS itself. Like I pointed out before, SS is a safety net in as much a pile of banana leaves can cushion your 20-storey fall. In just a few years all SS funding will add to the 15Trillion USD deficit, blowing the deficit out in a way that will make Bush's deficit seem "excellent".

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru 

Another Obama contradiction that BR willingly overlooks. How convenient.

Hmm... I think in this case Obama says personally what he believes in, but also says this is not appropriate for solely driving policy in a democracy. Yes, if God tells me I shouldn't kill people, then I would rather not. But that doesn't mean I make a law tomorrow, don't kill people. The law is made because we generally, on the whole, in a democracy, come to an agreement, that killing people is generally not cool. Because God may tell me, kill terrorists and Muslims. God may tell someone else, kill Christians. So, you see, general agreements on laws shouldn't be based on what God tells you.

Personally, God/Goddess tells me in my personal role I will rarely be directly involved in killing someone, but if needed for self-defence, protection of my family, then I can do so. However whatever happens if that does happen, the court of law I face (hopefully, who knows in 50 years, and depending what country I am in) will be a secular one, because of the separation of church and state. I can say God/Goddess told me it was OK, but as a democratic person in a democratic country, I have to face what the ~secular~ law has decided, not whether a Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, New Age, Born-Again or whatever says what's right and what's wrong.

In Muslim countries, this is a massive issue because there are two courts of law in the best case scenario... Syariah, and secular. For example, in Malaysia, only Muslims can be tried in Syariah courts, not non-Muslims. Not so clear-cut here because some cases, eg. rape, can be tried in Syariah under preferential rules towards one party in which the rapist may not be tried in a secular court... As is my understanding. Middle East countries... who knows.

Suffice to say separation of church and state is generally preferable, when they become mangled together, the consequences are not pleasant. Particularly when the State is the Church is the Government is the Leadership is the Financial Centre of a country. Things usually go bad, as evidenced throughout all of human history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nvidia2008 

 

Fair enough, that would be reasonable purposes for voting for Romney. But I think there's much more to the picture, as you allude to. I think the election will be important as it will have major global repercussions. I just hope that the election will raise fundamental issues you mentioned, and not deviate into lowest-common-denominator frivolity.

I hope so too.  We need a real debate about real issues.  Secondly, if the election comes down to who smoked more weed in high school...Obama will be reelected as the populace will be yet again distracted.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

Romney will represent America with more dignity?  We're going to be back to having a president who literally believes a god tells him what to do.  

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/20/us/politics/how-the-mormon-church-shaped-mitt-romney.html?pagewanted=all

 

 

 

 

This should automatically disqualify a candidate from public office.  Romney might as well roll some bones and make an animal sacrifice, seeking a sign he did the right thing.  It's 2000 fucking 12 people.  Can we PLEASE leave this stone age garbage behind us?  

Your intellectual dishonesty and hostility to ALL faith knows no bounds.  From your own article (which I'd previously read, FYI).  

This, BR, is what you cannot understand.  Most people of faith (and certainly most Christians) do not have God "tell them what to do."  They pray for strength, wisdom, courage, etc.  They don't here some Donald Sutherland voice in their heads saying "Go forth and cut capital gains taxes."   

And then Romney decides to go against a decision on the merits because the voices in his head told him to change his mind.  I'm fine with idiots praying for strength and whatnot.  I'm not fine with the voices in your head changing your mind, reversing a decision that was made with reason and logic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

And then Romney decides to go against a decision on the merits because the voices in his head told him to change his mind.  I'm fine with idiots praying for strength and whatnot.  I'm not fine with the voices in your head changing your mind, reversing a decision that was made with reason and logic.

I'm fine with idiots believing they are the most intelligent and capable beings in the universe and whatnot.  I'm not fine with those people telling me I'm an idiot because I believe differently.  

As for Romney, you've mischaracterized the text again:  

That's not quite "voices in his head," now is it?  Do you mean to suggest that in making decisions, you never rely on intuition/what feels right?  Furthermore, do you condemn anyone who does?  Some of the greatest business leaders in the world talk of making decisions both based on the logical merits as well as feeling, intuition, etc.  The only difference here is that Romney prays about the decisions.  

Really, BR..your hostility towards all faith is as equally stunning as your lack of understanding about what believers actually think and how they behave.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

I'm fine with idiots praying for strength and whatnot.

Are you incapable of refraining from referring to people who believe different things than you do as idiots?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

I'm not fine with the voices in your head changing your mind, reversing a decision that was made with reason and logic.

Emphasis on your of course. I mean it's okay for you to listen to the voices in your head to overturn decisions based on reason and logic. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

It's not that they believe something different. It's that they believe an invisible magic sky daddy watches and judges. Iron Age myths should not be taken seriously.

Regardless of your pejorative characterizations of the beliefs of those you disagree with, it is abundantly clear you're unable to refrain from calling those who believe different things than you do names like "idiot".

Oh well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

Zombie Jesus (who is also his own father but not but is) loves you so much that if you don't believe in him, you will suffer eternal damnation. Yeah, gotta be an idiot on some level to believe that.

Thanks for continuing to share your characterization and opinion about the beliefs of others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

 

Thanks for continuing to share your characterization and opinion about the beliefs of others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

Zombie Jesus (who is also his own father but not but is) loves you so much that if you don't believe in him, you will suffer eternal damnation. Yeah, gotta be an idiot on some level to believe that.

I really don't see how you get to claim the intellectual high ground here.  You don't believe in a supreme being of any kind.  You only believe in that which you can experience with one or more of your senses.  I happen to consider that exceptionally narrow-minded and naive. The difference between us, though, is that I rarely if ever attack you for your beliefs, or lack thereof.  

It's narrow minded to not allow delusions and wishful thinking to govern my life?  The only naive one here is the person here is the one who believes in a Santa Claus for grownups.  He knows when you are sleeping.  He knows when you're awake.  He knows when you've been bad or good, but you just have to say "I believe in you, Jesus" and all that bad shit you continually do will be forgiven.  Shit, your version kinda ruins the song.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

It's narrow minded to not allow delusions and wishful thinking to govern my life?  

Don't think we don't see what you just did there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

The only naive one here is the person here is the one who believes in a Santa Claus for grownups.  He knows when you are sleeping.  He knows when you're awake.  He knows when you've been bad or good, but you just have to say "I believe in you, Jesus" and all that bad shit you continually do will be forgiven.  Shit, your version kinda ruins the song.  

Again thanks for sharing your characterizations and opinions of other people's beliefs.

I suppose we could have all sorts of fun with the fairy tales you believe in too.

It's cute how you think that well established science amounts to fairy tales while you bend your knee to an all powerful invisible father who sacrificed himself to himself (but not really because he magically resurrected himself three days later) so he could forgive you (because what fun would it have been to simply NOT put the tree of knowledge in the garden?  why did there need to be such a tree?) because although he is allegedly omnibenevolent, he still will torture you for eternity if this perfect being who requires nothing doesn't receive your love.  

Yes, I'm the one who believes in fairy tales.  You just believe in a 3 headed zombie who killed himself to unlock his own capacity to forgive only those who worship him.  Yeah.  Grow up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

It's cute how you think that well established science amounts to fairy tales...

I was thinking more about your fairy tale imagination about how things like economics work. But, since you mention it...sure...your faith in evolution is another. Your faith that there is no God would be another. Your faith in the goodness of the state is still another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

...while you bend your knee to an all powerful invisible father who sacrificed himself to himself (but not really because he magically resurrected himself three days later) so he could forgive you (because what fun would it have been to simply NOT put the tree of knowledge in the garden?  why did there need to be such a tree?) because although he is allegedly omnibenevolent, he still will torture you for eternity if this perfect being who requires nothing doesn't receive your love.  

 

Yes, I'm the one who believes in fairy tales.  You just believe in a 3 headed zombie who killed himself to unlock his own capacity to forgive only those who worship him.  Yeah.  Grow up.

Again thanks for sharing your characterizations and opinions about other people's beliefs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

 

I was thinking more about your fairy tale imagination about how things like economics work. But, since you mention it...sure...your faith in evolution is another. Your faith that there is no God would be another. Your faith in the goodness of the state is still another.

 

Faith.

See, there you go again.  Just like the fools who conflate the scientific and vernacular definitions of the word "theory"--here, too, you conflate the religious and secular definitions of the word "faith".  I do not have religious faith--the kind I deride--in any of the above mentioned topics because my beliefs are firmly grounded in reality, supported by evidence.  The faith you think I have would be better described as confidence in the validity of said theories based upon the overwhelming supporting evidence.

Furthermore, I don't have faith (vernacular or otherwise) that there is no god.  I am not a gnostic atheist.  I am an agnostic atheist in that I do not believe in a deity nor do I believe such a thing is knowable.  Furthermore, I am an igtheist--there's no point even discussing a god without first adequately defining one in a falsifiable manner.  So, again, you are firmly, soundly, overwhelmingly fucking wrong about everything you said there.

Nothing wrong with this he is a believer of his religion which is good.
 

Originally Posted by BR 

Zombie Jesus (who is also his own father but not but is) loves you so much that if you don't believe in him, you will suffer eternal damnation. Yeah, gotta be an idiot on some level to believe that.

There is a difference between faith and religion. The Jesus thing for example, in the bible, is very confusing, and is very open to interpretation. The most important thing I will say about the Bible is the sayings that are directly recorded as Jesus-said-this is vastly, vastly different from everything else in the Bible. Personally, the stuff Jesus "actually said" is way more kickass than the other stuff, which seems rather sub-par compared to the stuff Jesus said. For example, John The Baptist's sayings are kind of saying "I'm a cool guy that did cool things, then Jesus came along, and he was cool too". Whereas Jesus was just like, "This is what I think, this is what it is, if you like it, great, if you don't, you can kiss my jewish ass".

And of course, I have to say, New Testament and Old Testament is like Mac and PC.

As for the Resurrection, in the Bible as well, it's quite sketchy. A lot of the accounts were of people who saw "Jesus" but didn't recognise him. If your best friend got hit buy a car and you went to his funeral and you saw him one week later all fine, you'd suspect you'd say, "Hey, wassup bro, I thought you is dead!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_appearances_of_Jesus

To me, the "Death" of Jesus is the death of all mankind in our current form. The "Resurrection" is in two forms, one is a standard afterlife concept that we will transition to another existence, either similar to our current or to something totally new. The other "Resurrection" is literally the "born-again", which can happen to anyone after a kind of "awakening". For example, if tomorrow I walk out the door and I see perfect love in every human being, then something profound has happened that I have been "resurrected" from my previous semi-death (i.e. "blind" ie. "unenlightened") state.

So obviously I'm in the "hippie-reinterpretive" camp of Jesus Christ as a ~concept~ regardless of whether such a human being existed or not.

For atheists and agnostics, I feel it is very important to understand the difference between faith and religion, because I am anti-religion but not anti-faith and pro-spirituality. People like me, are relatively rare. I used to consider myself "New Age" but now lean towards monotheism in a self-discovery sense. That is, the pantheon of Gods and Goddesses are merely symbolic representations of earthly and universal forces we don't understand, but I do believe and have experienced a central "thing" beyond all that but in us all as a spark. I think I'll be a cult leader someday, actually. Seems to be the direction I'm heading in whenever I talk about ~my~ faith. Too cool for orthodox religion school, Too hot for atheists and agnostics.

Ah, I see. I just watched "IOUSA" the movie a few days ago. Mind-blowing. At the time it was made just several years ago, the deficit was around 8 Trillion. Now it's almost double that, closing in on 16 Trillion. And when you take into account the fraudulent government behaviour you outline above, something's gotta give. Ponzi scheme is a perfect description, I understand why people use that term and from your explanation as well.

That's why I say forget the Illuminati, Aliens, Roswell, even God for a while. Why is 99% of the human population entirely clueless as to how money actually works? Perhaps because of evolutionary understanding of tangible resources including non-fiat currency. Gold for example, is the easiest to comprehend. But fiat currencies, these are totally bollocks stuff. Why do most people not understand, simply, you cannot eat money. If I have a piece of wood, I know 20 years later, if I still have that piece of wood I can make fire so I won't die of cold. But if I have a $100 bill (USD/ Euro/ AUD/ CAD/ etc), there is no guarantee that even tomorrow, I can "buy" a piece of wood. Because someone has to find that wood, cut that wood, sell it to me, take my money, so he can buy another piece of wood. Assuming there are still trees left. The process of money supply is so absurd, it simply defies most human comprehension, much like quantum mechanics. I am blessed to have a mind that can at least get the rough gist of both, but until 5 years ago, my monetary knowledge was abysmal. It was only at the end of 2004 when I was dead broke, maxed out $7000 in credit cards, my parents freaking out, them giving me $3000 each month and I had no idea where it was going, and considering at the start of 2003 I had $20,000 in savings which went by in a flash, even though I had a decent job... I knew something was fishy, and thankfully with some earnest I understand money a lot better now.

It is absolutely criminal that most school children learn that gravity causes an apple to fall to the ground but virtually nobody is taught why an apple costs 50cents (or whatever the price is, which is my point exactly).

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

I hope so too.  We need a real debate about real issues.  Secondly, if the election comes down to who smoked more weed in high school...Obama will be reelected as the populace will be yet again distracted.  

 

Upon reflection, I'm not optimistic on a real debate about real issues. It's not going to be pretty all the way up to voting day, I'm afraid.